Official JTR speaker thread - Page 563 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #16861 of 36168 Old 03-04-2014, 03:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

The discussion of how much power is required comes up on this thread a lot. There is an article called "We Need More Power, Captain!” But Just How Much Amplifier Power Is Needed?" that discusses power requirements based on the following:
The article mentions the Crown Amplifier Power Required Calculator.

Check out the requirements on the calculator for the Noesis 212HT with the following criteria:
  • Listening distance of 4 meters (13 ft)
  • Desired average listening volume of 102 dB
  • Sensitivity of speaker - 101 dB 1w/1M
  • Amplifier headroom: 20 dB (Music needs headroom from 6-24 dB, most movies need 20 dB of headroom)

You need 2014 watts for the above scenario!

DD,

You use the 212HT in your above scenario. Quick question. Does the calculation factor in the use of multiple speakers?

I'm confident that no 212HT owner out there is going to be striving for the playback level in your example using only one (1) speaker, correct?

So with the "theoretical" 3db sensitivity gain assumed from doubling the number of speakers (stereo music playback), wouldn't that cut your originally calculated power requirement in half?

Using that same train of thought, how would the extra sensitivity in a typical 5 or 7 channel HT setup (movie playback) factor into the equation?

Edit: My phone sucks...Quoted the wrong post originally.
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post #16862 of 36168 Old 03-04-2014, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

I haven't dug into DD's math, but the power he's talking about is to cleanly deliver the crest factor of highly dynamic content, not sustained average power. As I have mentioned before, I think that detection of clipping reproducing these peaks is difficult simply due to how our brain processes distortion. This is what Tom Danley talks about. He claims clipping of an 800 watt amp at sub-reference average power levels.

Besides, I support DD without even checking the basis behind his numbers! smile.gif Not because I'm certain his assertions are definitely correct, but because if he is I'm all good. tongue.gifbiggrin.gif


I read the link after posting last night and it is pretty interesting. Even more reason to have high efficiency speakers that's for sure!
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post #16863 of 36168 Old 03-04-2014, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

DD,

You use the 212HT in your above scenario. Quick question. Does the calculation factor in the use of multiple speakers?

I'm confident that no 212HT owner out there is going to be striving for the playback level in your example using only one (1) speaker, correct?

So with the "theoretical" 3db sensitivity gain assumed from doubling the number of speakers (stereo music playback), wouldn't that cut your originally calculated power requirement in half?

Using that same train of thought, how would the extra sensitivity in a typical 5 or 7 channel HT setup (movie playback) factor into the equation?

Edit: My phone sucks...Quoted the wrong post originally.

Good points Austin and all phones suck as word processors ... wink.gif

All of this relates to listening at the top of the listening tolerance threshold and as LB said, having to use earplugs during a listening test shows exactly how crazy we all are ... cool.gifeek.gif

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post #16864 of 36168 Old 03-04-2014, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

I'm confident that no 212HT owner out there is going to be striving for the playback level in your example using only one (1) speaker, correct?

That is incorrect. I have a speaker capable of handling 2000 watts program, and I want all that capability at my disposal. Awesome power handling is one of the reasons I bought JTR in the first place. It's akin to putting a VW engine in a Corvette. After all, no need for a top speed of 160 mph around town. But then it's not a Corvette anymore as far as I'm concerned, even though it has the chassis, tires, and everything else it needs to go fast.

Besides, what about being prepared for block parties or park parties? smile.gif

Jeez, you're all so practical around here...tongue.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #16865 of 36168 Old 03-04-2014, 08:05 AM
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I never thought I would read popalock and practical in the same sentence. smile.gif

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post #16866 of 36168 Old 03-04-2014, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post


Besides, what about being prepared for block parties or park parties? smile.gif

This is a great point, it was frustrating at our park gtg that the inuke was clipping long before the Noesis were at their limit. It was very loud but I wanted more.
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post #16867 of 36168 Old 03-04-2014, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post


Besides, what about being prepared for block parties or park parties? smile.gif

Horses for courses.

Trying to have it both ways usually leads to some snags ... but (and it's a big one tongue.gif ) JTR/Danley et al are the best options in that very narrow class (high fidelity with serious sackage) . smile.gif

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post #16868 of 36168 Old 03-04-2014, 08:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

That is incorrect. I have a speaker capable of handling 2000 watts program, and I want all that capability at my disposal. Awesome power handling is one of the reasons I bought JTR in the first place. It's akin to putting a VW engine in a Corvette. After all, no need for a top speed of 160 mph around town. But then it's not a Corvette anymore as far as I'm concerned, even though it has the chassis, tires, and everything else it needs to go fast.

Besides, what about being prepared for block parties or park parties? smile.gif

Jeez, you're all so practical around here...tongue.gifbiggrin.gif

My point exactly. Why pay thousands of dollars for additional capability for a higher end pro speaker just to hold it back with a receiver or low watt amp.Why buy a high performance car just to put a low performance engine to run it.
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post #16869 of 36168 Old 03-04-2014, 09:00 AM
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Still... I'd love to do a blind A/B switch level matched for you guys at reference volume and watch you squirm as you go back and forth slowly coming to the realization that there is no way that you are going to be able to tell which is the avr and which is the amp. I've been there. smile.gif
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post #16870 of 36168 Old 03-04-2014, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Horses for courses.

Absolutely. Whatever makes you happy. I'm just giving my take on it. I fully support the LABGG community. There are many on this thread and I'm non-discriminatory. smile.gif
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post #16871 of 36168 Old 03-04-2014, 09:24 AM
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I am currently designing my dedicated theater. I plan on purchasing JTR speakers. They will either by the 212's or the 228 for the front. I have already built 2 dual opposed subs with the Dayton 18's. I used Gorillas plan to build them. I am planning out my stage right now, I will be using an AT screen. I can save a bit of space by putting the subwoofers sideways with the drivers facing the walls vs drivers facing the screen. Are there advantage/disadvantages to this?
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post #16872 of 36168 Old 03-04-2014, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Still... I'd love to do a blind A/B switch level matched for you guys at reference volume and watch you squirm as you go back and forth slowly coming to the realization that there is no way that you are going to be able to tell which is the avr and which is the amp. I've been there. smile.gif
Your referring to 2 channel tests. Any high quality avr should be able to do 2 channel with HE/HS speakers just fine. Same goes for a 2 channel amp.

HT is about 5, 7, 9, or 11 speakers being driven. That is when the avr starts to fail. I have T12s for the LCR and Mythos tens for the SS and RS. They are supposedly 93dbs. Watching a highly dynamic movie or concert at reference level results in noticeably more listening fatigue at the end then it does when watching the same show (different day) powered with a 3 channel amp and letting the avr drive the 4 surrounds.

When watching the show at reference powered with the avr I usually cannot wait for it to end so I can turn the volume down. My ears start hurting about a half hour into it. When the amp is added I enjoy the show and do not even think about the volume. This difference is why I own an amp.
2 cents
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post #16873 of 36168 Old 03-04-2014, 09:39 AM
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Actually a slight advantage with the woofers hopefully being closer to the same distance away from you. It is the exact reason I ended up going that direction with the last build I am just completing. You can see the two boxes supporting the Danleys on the bottom have 2 18's each, then the other two out from them will go up top.



Each of those 4 boxes house 2 18's dual opposed.
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post #16874 of 36168 Old 03-04-2014, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Actually a slight advantage with the woofers hopefully being closer to the same distance away from you. It is the exact reason I ended up going that direction with the last build I am just completing. You can see the two boxes supporting the Danleys on the bottom have 2 18's each, then the other two out from them will go up top.



Each of those 4 boxes house 2 18's dual opposed.

Looks like I need to stop by the next time I am in Asheville to listen after these changes....biggrin.gif
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post #16875 of 36168 Old 03-04-2014, 10:02 AM
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So really no audible difference if the woofers are facing the side walls or the chairs?
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post #16876 of 36168 Old 03-04-2014, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Actually a slight advantage with the woofers hopefully being closer to the same distance away from you. It is the exact reason I ended up going that direction with the last build I am just completing. You can see the two boxes supporting the Danleys on the bottom have 2 18's each, then the other two out from them will go up top.



Each of those 4 boxes house 2 18's dual opposed.

Freaking awesome!

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post #16877 of 36168 Old 03-04-2014, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel 48 View Post

So really no audible difference if the woofers are facing the side walls or the chairs?
As long as you leave enough clearance for the woofer there should be no audible difference. Once things are set up take some measurements to find out for sure.

With my SubM HPs it does not matter at all. smile.gif
Good Luck
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post #16878 of 36168 Old 03-04-2014, 10:38 AM
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I would if I could but if I shrink my stage a bit not sure I would have room behind the screen to have the subwoofers face forward or sideways. There is a 5" difference between depth and width. My mind likes to say there would be more sonic impact with the woofers facing me but the mind can play tricks!
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post #16879 of 36168 Old 03-04-2014, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post

Looks like I need to stop by the next time I am in Asheville to listen after these changes....biggrin.gif

Yea, Duh.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel 48 View Post

So really no audible difference if the woofers are facing the side walls or the chairs?

Nope. If anything, an improvement by having them fire to the side.
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post #16880 of 36168 Old 03-04-2014, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post


Your referring to 2 channel tests. Any high quality avr should be able to do 2 channel with HE/HS speakers just fine. Same goes for a 2 channel amp.

HT is about 5, 7, 9, or 11 speakers being driven. That is when the avr starts to fail. I have T12s for the LCR and Mythos tens for the SS and RS. They are supposedly 93dbs. Watching a highly dynamic movie or concert at reference level results in noticeably more listening fatigue at the end then it does when watching the same show (different day) powered with a 3 channel amp and letting the avr drive the 4 surrounds.

When watching the show at reference powered with the avr I usually cannot wait for it to end so I can turn the volume down. My ears start hurting about a half hour into it. When the amp is added I enjoy the show and do not even think about the volume. This difference is why I own an amp.
2 cents
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Good point Chris. I know my surrounds are more like 93 db sensitivity... hmmmm......
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post #16881 of 36168 Old 03-04-2014, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Decadent_Spectre View Post

What did you use to check the dynamic range? Can you post a link?
I use JRiver Media Center which calculates the same thing as TT Dynamic Range meter. This is similar to the crest fact, but not exactly. The numbers will all be proportional, though, so you can find songs with lowest/highest crest factor using the TT DR number.

For actual crest factor, I use the free Voxengo Span VST plugin inside JRiver. It requires you to monitor the song real time and will give you RMS, peak level, max crest factor, and clippings. You can monitor each channel separately.

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post #16882 of 36168 Old 03-04-2014, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Yes isn't it! Everybody should watch it IMO. I would love to see how a dual OS-er would sound!

It sounds live...The drummer is playing in my room and each beat is extremely tight and controlled. Pretty amazing.
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post #16883 of 36168 Old 03-04-2014, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

That is incorrect. I have a speaker capable of handling 2000 watts program, and I want all that capability at my disposal. Awesome power handling is one of the reasons I bought JTR in the first place. It's akin to putting a VW engine in a Corvette. After all, no need for a top speed of 160 mph around town. But then it's not a Corvette anymore as far as I'm concerned, even though it has the chassis, tires, and everything else it needs to go fast.

Besides, what about being prepared for block parties or park parties? smile.gif

Jeez, you're all so practical around here...tongue.gifbiggrin.gif

Guess I failed to explicitly word my post sufficiently to get my point across in the context of DD's original post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

Check out the requirements on the calculator for the Noesis 212HT with the following criteria:
  • Listening distance of 4 meters (13 ft)
  • Desired average listening volume of 102 dB
  • Sensitivity of speaker - 101 dB 1w/1M
  • Amplifier headroom: 20 dB (Music needs headroom from 6-24 dB, most movies need 20 dB of headroom)

You need 2014 watts for the above scenario!

Was simply attempting to convey that if one had a desired average listening volume of 102db (as indicated in DD's scenario above), the 3db sensitivity gain from adding a second 212HT would imply that 1/2 power (1007 watts) would achieve said desired average listening volume....

My major assumption was that the DJ hosting the block party would not use one (1) 212HT to achieve said desired average listening volume.

That said, I am going to make a further assumption that DD backed into that SPL figure based on the 212HT's rated program power of 2000 watts (correct me if I'm wrong!)... Add another 212HT and another 2014 watts and you would be +6db above the desired average listening volume indicated in DD's scenario above.

That's it...

Not saying anyone is correct or incorrect. Just stating an observation that would most likely play out...at a block party...
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post #16884 of 36168 Old 03-04-2014, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

I use JRiver Media Center which calculates the same thing as TT Dynamic Range meter. This is similar to the crest fact, but not exactly. The numbers will all be proportional, though, so you can find songs with lowest/highest crest factor using the TT DR number.

For actual crest factor, I use the free Voxengo Span VST plugin inside JRiver. It requires you to monitor the song real time and will give you RMS, peak level, max crest factor, and clippings. You can monitor each channel separately.

Appreciate it.

I understand it is relative and can be relied on to find songs with lower or higher crest factor, I am trying to understand if the 1.6db for the track I found is possible for a music signal, I know that a square wave has a 0db crest. Googling has not helped me thus far. I hope your link will answer the question smile.gif
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post #16885 of 36168 Old 03-04-2014, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Actually a slight advantage with the woofers hopefully being closer to the same distance away from you. It is the exact reason I ended up going that direction with the last build I am just completing. You can see the two boxes supporting the Danleys on the bottom have 2 18's each, then the other two out from them will go up top.



Each of those 4 boxes house 2 18's dual opposed.

Looks amazing! Did you remember to leave any room for a screen and/or seating? haha j/k smile.gif Awesome set up man!
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post #16886 of 36168 Old 03-04-2014, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

We were that high (+17dB) at the dlbeck g2g and we only had the cherry monoblocks on each speaker and I didn't hear a hint of distortion, and if you look at the comments - neither did anyone else.
I just found out that my amps have a current limiter that prevents clipping from ever occurring. I didn't know this before.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel 48 View Post

So really no audible difference if the woofers are facing the side walls or the chairs?

I tried both configurations with my dual shifters and there wasn't a noticeable difference. So I will have them facing mouth towards side walls to economize the space behind the false wall. EQing with XT32 and minidsp is what really helped me.
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post #16888 of 36168 Old 03-04-2014, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

That said, I am going to make a further assumption that DD backed into that SPL figure based on the 212HT's rated program power of 2000 watts (correct me if I'm wrong!)... Add another 212HT and another 2014 watts and you would be +6db above the desired average listening volume indicated in DD's scenario above.

That's it...

Not saying anyone is correct or incorrect. Just stating an observation that would most likely play out...at a block party...
Yes, I didn't want to go over the rated power of one speaker and show that you can still use that much power and not be listening to 120+ levels. Guys can turn off their subs, use C weighting and slow on an SPL meter and should get their average SPL number to use in the calculator for their desire max listening volume. This will include both speakers. When using both speakers, enter 104 for the sensitivity (if using Noesis 212HTs) and actual measured SPL. Also, divide the required power by 2 to get power requirements per speaker.

Ivan Beaver of Danley once showed how SPL levels varied by using different settings on the same meter for the same signals:
Quote:
A weighted slow around 108dB
C weighted slow around 118dB
C weighted fast around 128dB
Flat response-peak around 136dB

OSHA hearing requirements are based on A weighting since it represents how we hear and perceive sound. However, most discussions about "its too loud" on AVS are referring to C weighting. You can listening to a movie at Reference Level and measure 110 dB on your meter. By OSHA's standards you could only listening at about 90 dB. It is even less depending on how much the bass was contributing to the 110 dB. You can listen up to 90 dBa for up to 8 hours a day according to OSHA standards. By the way, 10 Hz at A weighting is -56 dB from C weighting. At 5 hz, it is down by 68 dB.

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post #16889 of 36168 Old 03-04-2014, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Guess I failed to explicitly word my post sufficiently to get my point across in the context of DD's original post.
Was simply attempting to convey that if one had a desired average listening volume of 102db (as indicated in DD's scenario above), the 3db sensitivity gain from adding a second 212HT would imply that 1/2 power (1007 watts) would achieve said desired average listening volume....

My major assumption was that the DJ hosting the block party would not use one (1) 212HT to achieve said desired average listening volume.

That said, I am going to make a further assumption that DD backed into that SPL figure based on the 212HT's rated program power of 2000 watts (correct me if I'm wrong!)... Add another 212HT and another 2014 watts and you would be +6db above the desired average listening volume indicated in DD's scenario above.

That's it...

Not saying anyone is correct or incorrect. Just stating an observation that would most likely play out...at a block party...

biggrin.gif. Nah, it's all good. I got your point the first time. smile.gif I'm just having a little fun with DD's numbers. There's no right or wrong. Everybody has their own way of looking at things and their own personal goals. My only point was that, for me, I prefer to maximize the entire signal chain. If a speaker has a 250 watt power handling, then I would want a minimum of 250 watts powering it. That's all. Not everybody is concerned with handling a block party, some just want enough power that they feel they can't tell a difference with more.

But I do find it curious that everyone maximizes subwoofer wattage based on driver and cabinet parameters, not desired spl at the mlp. Yet when it comes to mains the calculation changes. Active speakers are typically designed like subs, but passive systems always seem to get different treatment. All three have cabinets and drivers, why the difference with passive speakers?
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post #16890 of 36168 Old 03-04-2014, 03:40 PM
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Because active typically incorporates DSP that could result in some boosting across the FR to optimize the overall speaker response. These boosts do require additional reserve power, and matching the active speaker with a higher powered amp is prudent in this case. Not to say that we do the same type of DSP using xt32 or the like outside of a passive setup, but even in this case, a higher powered amp would still be a good suggestion to allow for whole system headroom. The point remains if you were to buy a catalyst and only listened at -10 and lower, you still wouldn't be using anywhere near the SP amp's spec'd wattage, but to cover all end consumer's requirements, Mark matches the amp to the speaker spec so he doesn't have people trying to go +10 over ref at 3m+ and breaking stuff all the time....
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