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post #16921 of 30452 Old 03-03-2014, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

That was awesome. Thanks Chris.
http://www.amazon.com/Good-Times-Bad-Years-Godsmack/dp/B000WMEAKM/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1393860057&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=ten+years+of+gadsmack

The dvd comes with the CD and is 5.1 multichannel. The concert is acoustical from House of Blues in Las Vegas. You do not have to be a godsmack fan to appreciate the show. Audio recording quality is outstanding. This dvd can be played past reference level with ultra clarity creating a good example of how realistic JTR speakers can reproduce Live dynamic concerts. Best 10 bucks I've spent.

Here's the youtube copy of the concert http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rVvtO3o2rw

Chris

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post #16922 of 30452 Old 03-03-2014, 10:06 AM
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The discussion of how much power is required comes up on this thread a lot. There is an article called "We Need More Power, Captain!” But Just How Much Amplifier Power Is Needed?" that discusses power requirements based on the following:
Quote:
There are two goals:
1) Power the loudspeakers so they play as loudly as possible without burning out. In other words, determine the optimum powering for the chosen loudspeakers.
2) Achieve a certain loudness in a certain venue.

The article mentions the Crown Amplifier Power Required Calculator.

Check out the requirements on the calculator for the Noesis 212HT with the following criteria:
  • Listening distance of 4 meters (13 ft)
  • Desired average listening volume of 102 dB
  • Sensitivity of speaker - 101 dB 1w/1M
  • Amplifier headroom: 20 dB (Music needs headroom from 6-24 dB, most movies need 20 dB of headroom)

You need 2014 watts for the above scenario!




Reference level settings have nothing to do with average volume. If you pull out your SPL meter and put in on C weighting and slow you might get close to your average listening volume.

Here is another "paper" that also explains power requirements:
Amplifier headroom: A brief explanation
Quote:
So if you are using an amplifier with an unclipped power output capability of 100w, and you are listening to music with a crest factor of 20db then the average output you would be able to obtain from the amplifier and avoid clipping the dynamic peaks is 1w. The same amplifier with a crest factor of 10db, the average output would be 10w.

What happens if we want to listen to our 20db crest factor music at a higher average level than just 1w of output on our 100w amplifier? Well, you certainly can.....but you will end up clipping the dynamic peaks. Going back to what we said before about the nature of music, it's very transient. Those large peaks will occur over very short durations of time and change rapidly. Due to various reasons our brain can handle some amount of clipping without negative audible effects. But it is also possible, depending on the amount of clipping, original crest factor of the music and frequency regions involved, etc, that this clipping could result in harsh or compressed sounding dynamics at higher output listening levels. This is because of the increase in distortion as a result of clipping, and due to the forced reduction of the level of the dynamic peak compared to the average level of the music. An undesirable result indeed. There are, of course, other issues involved with clipping such as potential damage to components such as speakers, but that's best left to another thread as it can be quite involved in-and-of itself.
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post #16923 of 30452 Old 03-03-2014, 10:38 AM
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I just checked the crest factor on 8000 songs in my library and the highest crest factor is 19dB. The movie Skyfall has a crest factor of 22 dB. Here is an article on how to calculate power requirements by using the Crest Factor:
The Nuances Of Crest Factor

You basically start with the crest factor of your content and use that to figure out how much power you need. You can also use it to figure out how much clean continuous power an amp can provide for actual content based on the amp's continuous power rating. Here is a dBW calculator that helps.

Using the article's formula, an amp rated for 550 watts continuous per channel is only able to output 6.92 clean continuous watts on Skyfall with its 22 dB crest factor.

550 watts = 27.4 dBW
27.4 + 3 = 30.4 (convert to peak rating)
30.4 - 22 = 8.4 dBW (subtract crest factor)
8.4 dBW = 6.92 watts
Quote:
Of course, it is always advisable to use a larger amplifier than actually required, as long as the continuous power rating of the loudspeaker is not exceeded.

Still think you have enough amp? biggrin.gif
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post #16924 of 30452 Old 03-03-2014, 10:50 AM
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Interesting info DD. Makes me very happy that I bought the LG FP10000q for the 215RT's. With two 15's in each cabinet I think the LG will be just about right ... cool.gif

Just spoke with Jeff this morning and we are looking good for the 29th GTG. Consider this a reminder to PM me if you haven't already done so to secure a spot. The interest has been good so the sooner you commit the better. smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

I just checked the crest factor on 8000 songs in my library and the highest crest factor is 19dB. The movie Skyfall has a crest factor of 22 dB. Here is an article on how to calculate power requirements by using the Crest Factor:
The Nuances Of Crest Factor

You basically start with the crest factor of your content and use that to figure out how much power you need. You can also use it to figure out how much clean continuous power an amp can provide for actual content based on the amp's continuous power rating. Here is a dBW calculator that helps.

Using the article's formula, an amp rated for 550 watts continuous per channel is only able to output 6.92 clean continuous watts on Skyfall with its 22 dB crest factor.

550 watts = 27.4 dBW
27.4 + 3 = 30.4 (convert to peak rating)
30.4 - 22 = 8.4 dBW (subtract crest factor)
8.4 dBW = 6.92 watts
Still think you have enough amp? biggrin.gif

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post #16925 of 30452 Old 03-03-2014, 10:54 AM
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Thanks DD. I saw something very similar last week on a different web site but the concept was the same. Pretty interesting stuff. My new amps only have 250 watts per channel...don' worry, I am typing up my Audion add as we speak to man up to something more substantial tongue.gif
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post #16926 of 30452 Old 03-03-2014, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Interesting info DD. Makes me very happy that I bought the LG FP10000q for the 215RT's. With two 15's in each cabinet I think the LG will be just about right ... cool.gif

Just spoke with Jeff this morning and we are looking good for the 29th GTG. Consider this a reminder to PM me if you haven't already done so to secure a spot. The interest has been good so the sooner you commit the better. smile.gif

Great news about the 215s running on time for you GTG. I am sure there will be a lot of requests on this thread at the end of the weekend for your review/opinion.
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post #16927 of 30452 Old 03-03-2014, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

Great news about the 215s running on time for you GTG. I am sure there will be a lot of requests on this thread at the end of the weekend for your review/opinion.

Yes, I'm really anxious for the new toys. We will be taking lot's of measurements and will post the results and EQ settings in a new 215RT GTG Thread. Jeff has been testing the 215's with the prototype drivers and he was surprised by the bass output. The large cabinet really helps and he is pretty sure "I will be happy with the bass". cool.gif

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post #16928 of 30452 Old 03-03-2014, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

I was just mostly thinking out loud with my peeps ya know smile.gif I think it will most likely remain at home. I just have some options out before me is all. It does have XLR's but my Denon 3313 does not. So maybe I just go for the pre and other gear smile.gif Passing on this beast of the utmost quality with a 10 year warranty would be a little unsmart smile.gif That is unless I sprung for an LG wink.gif
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post #16929 of 30452 Old 03-03-2014, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

I just checked the crest factor on 8000 songs in my library and the highest crest factor is 19dB. The movie Skyfall has a crest factor of 22 dB. Here is an article on how to calculate power requirements by using the Crest Factor:
The Nuances Of Crest Factor

You basically start with the crest factor of your content and use that to figure out how much power you need. You can also use it to figure out how much clean continuous power an amp can provide for actual content based on the amp's continuous power rating. Here is a dBW calculator that helps.

Using the article's formula, an amp rated for 550 watts continuous per channel is only able to output 6.92 clean continuous watts on Skyfall with its 22 dB crest factor.

550 watts = 27.4 dBW
27.4 + 3 = 30.4 (convert to peak rating)
30.4 - 22 = 8.4 dBW (subtract crest factor)
8.4 dBW = 6.92 watts
Still think you have enough amp? biggrin.gif

I checked a couple of songs in my library a while ago and one of them had between 1.6-1.9db of dynamic range according to the Foobar plugin. Can this be accurate? A sinewave is 3db so I find it difficult to believe.
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post #16930 of 30452 Old 03-03-2014, 12:03 PM
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DD,

So for 122dB which is 17dB over reference you need 2k wattage?

We were that high (+17dB) at the dlbeck g2g and we only had the cherry monoblocks on each speaker and I didn't hear a hint of distortion, and if you look at the comments - neither did anyone else. Well, if you consider what we were doing while attempting to listen at that level actually listening. Most of us had earplugs in and our hand clamped as firmly as possible over our ears and earplugs and it was still absolutely absurdly loud. So loud you couln't make out what someone was saying when they were yelling at you from a couple feet away. So I call shens on those numbers out of real world experience --- on the demo session you personally MC'ed. tongue.gif

...Not only that - but that calc doesn't take into account crossover frequency -- which (since most people use 80hz or 120hz) would make the power draw much less for mainspeaker use.


Here's a more realistic picture for actual reference level use of the 212HT, as traditionally defined to be 85dB levels with 20dB peaks - resulting in 105dB peaks for mainspeakers. So for reference level listening (0dB on the AVR) at 3M you need a max of 23 watts.




And I don't know about you guys, but I normally listen to my music at about -20 or -15dB at most for anything but the shortest of demo sessions.

At -15 dB music listening you are using less than 1 watt on the 212HT.





DD's, trying to chum up the water again. wink.gif
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post #16931 of 30452 Old 03-03-2014, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Decadent_Spectre View Post

I checked a couple of songs in my library a while ago and one of them had between 1.6-1.9db of dynamic range according to the Foobar plugin. Can this be accurate? A sinewave is 3db so I find it difficult to believe.
The lowest is usually around 6 dB, but my lowest is 4.6dB. TT Dynamic Range meter will come up with lower values because I think it discards lowest/highest peaks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

So for 122dB which is 17dB over reference you need 2k wattage?
As I mentioned, reference level has nothing to do with the SPL level (but is closer with movies than with music). It just means that a -20 dB pink noise test tone will play back at 83-85 dB. My music library has a 34 dB swing for average volume when the volume level is kept the same.

17 dB over reference, if using pink noise, is 100 dB. The 20 dB peaks are part of the crest factor. The subwoofer plays 10 dB louder plus up to another 7-12 dB for rerouted bass. Based on the Crown calculator, this meant that each channel needed 715 watts. If the volume level for the movies clip was also 100 dB at 17 dB over reference, then there wasn't an issue. My amps are rated at around 800 watts at 4 ohms so there shouldn't have been any distortion. The 100 dB is average so peaks could have been at 120 dB for each channel with a 20 dB crest factor. The required 715 watts takes that into account. Note: I dropped the distance to 3M for dlbecks listening space.


Quote:
At -15 dB music listening you are using less than 1 watt on the 212HT.
At -15 dB from reference level, music can have volume ranging from 0-103 dB. How can you determine that you only need 1 watt? I have a song that at reference level will playback at 118 dB if reference level is calibrated at 83 dB with pink noise. With a crest factor of only 4.6 dB, the song needs 41 watts at -15 dB with the 212HT speakers and 1301 watts at reference level.

I used the EBU R128 loudness algorithm to determine that my song was 15 dB louder than pink noise.
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post #16932 of 30452 Old 03-03-2014, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

The lowest is usually around 6 dB, but my lowest is 4.6dB. TT Dynamic Range meter will come up with lower values because I think it discards lowest/highest peaks.

What did you use to check the dynamic range? Can you post a link?
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post #16933 of 30452 Old 03-03-2014, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

Still think you have enough amp? biggrin.gif

Yes biggrin.gif
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post #16934 of 30452 Old 03-03-2014, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

The discussion of how much power is required comes up on this thread a lot. There is an article called "We Need More Power, Captain!” But Just How Much Amplifier Power Is Needed?" that discusses power requirements based on the following:
The article mentions the Crown Amplifier Power Required Calculator.

Check out the requirements on the calculator for the Noesis 212HT with the following criteria:
  • Listening distance of 4 meters (13 ft)
  • Desired average listening volume of 102 dB
  • Sensitivity of speaker - 101 dB 1w/1M
  • Amplifier headroom: 20 dB (Music needs headroom from 6-24 dB, most movies need 20 dB of headroom)

You need 2014 watts for the above scenario!




Reference level settings have nothing to do with average volume. If you pull out your SPL meter and put in on C weighting and slow you might get close to your average listening volume.

Here is another "paper" that also explains power requirements:
Amplifier headroom: A brief explanation


So let's say I have a pair of B&W or whatever that has 89db sensitivity. Every 3 db's requires doubling the wattage right? So that would mean it would take:

4028 watts for a 98 db speaker
8056 watts for 95 db speaker (RMK's 215's)
16,112 watts for 92 db speaker
32,224 watts for 89 db speaker

Is this right? If so, I think the levels you are talking about are insanely loud!! eek.gif
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post #16935 of 30452 Old 03-03-2014, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post


http://www.amazon.com/Good-Times-Bad-Years-Godsmack/dp/B000WMEAKM/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1393860057&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=ten+years+of+gadsmack

The dvd comes with the CD and is 5.1 multichannel. The concert is acoustical from House of Blues in Las Vegas. You do not have to be a godsmack fan to appreciate the show. Audio recording quality is outstanding. This dvd can be played past reference level with ultra clarity creating a good example of how realistic JTR speakers can reproduce Live dynamic concerts. Best 10 bucks I've spent.

Here's the youtube copy of the concert http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rVvtO3o2rw

Chris

Just bought this at bestbuy.com for $8.99 and free shipping, thanks!!

3 - JTR 228's LCR (game room)
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post #16936 of 30452 Old 03-03-2014, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

So let's say I have a pair of B&W or whatever that has 89db sensitivity. Every 3 db's requires doubling the wattage right? So that would mean it would take:

4028 watts for a 98 db speaker
8056 watts for 95 db speaker (RMK's 215's)
16,112 watts for 92 db speaker
32,224 watts for 89 db speaker

Is this right? If so, I think the levels you are talking about are insanely loud!! eek.gif

I haven't dug into DD's math, but the power he's talking about is to cleanly deliver the crest factor of highly dynamic content, not sustained average power. As I have mentioned before, I think that detection of clipping reproducing these peaks is difficult simply due to how our brain processes distortion. This is what Tom Danley talks about. He claims clipping of an 800 watt amp at sub-reference average power levels.

Besides, I support DD without even checking the basis behind his numbers! smile.gif Not because I'm certain his assertions are definitely correct, but because if he is I'm all good. tongue.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #16937 of 30452 Old 03-03-2014, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

DD,

So for 122dB which is 17dB over reference you need 2k wattage?

We were that high (+17dB) at the dlbeck g2g and we only had the cherry monoblocks on each speaker and I didn't hear a hint of distortion, and if you look at the comments - neither did anyone else. Well, if you consider what we were doing while attempting to listen at that level actually listening. Most of us had earplugs in and our hand clamped as firmly as possible over our ears and earplugs and it was still absolutely absurdly loud. So loud you couln't make out what someone was saying when they were yelling at you from a couple feet away. So I call shens on those numbers out of real world experience --- on the demo session you personally MC'ed. tongue.gif

...Not only that - but that calc doesn't take into account crossover frequency -- which (since most people use 80hz or 120hz) would make the power draw much less for mainspeaker use.


Here's a more realistic picture for actual reference level use of the 212HT, as traditionally defined to be 85dB levels with 20dB peaks - resulting in 105dB peaks for mainspeakers. So for reference level listening (0dB on the AVR) at 3M you need a max of 23 watts.




And I don't know about you guys, but I normally listen to my music at about -20 or -15dB at most for anything but the shortest of demo sessions.



At -15 dB music listening you are using less than 1 watt on the 212HT.





DD's, trying to chum up the water again. wink.gif

maybe distortion made the earplugs necessary.tongue.gif Must be hard to hear peak distortion with earplugs in? Was the room highly treated? I definitely notice more absorption rooms sound quieter at equal spl to live rooms.

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Amplifier: Sunfire TGA7400, Lab Gruppen FP10000Q
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post #16938 of 30452 Old 03-04-2014, 02:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

The discussion of how much power is required comes up on this thread a lot. There is an article called "We Need More Power, Captain!” But Just How Much Amplifier Power Is Needed?" that discusses power requirements based on the following:
The article mentions the Crown Amplifier Power Required Calculator.

Check out the requirements on the calculator for the Noesis 212HT with the following criteria:
  • Listening distance of 4 meters (13 ft)
  • Desired average listening volume of 102 dB
  • Sensitivity of speaker - 101 dB 1w/1M
  • Amplifier headroom: 20 dB (Music needs headroom from 6-24 dB, most movies need 20 dB of headroom)

You need 2014 watts for the above scenario!

DD,

You use the 212HT in your above scenario. Quick question. Does the calculation factor in the use of multiple speakers?

I'm confident that no 212HT owner out there is going to be striving for the playback level in your example using only one (1) speaker, correct?

So with the "theoretical" 3db sensitivity gain assumed from doubling the number of speakers (stereo music playback), wouldn't that cut your originally calculated power requirement in half?

Using that same train of thought, how would the extra sensitivity in a typical 5 or 7 channel HT setup (movie playback) factor into the equation?

Edit: My phone sucks...Quoted the wrong post originally.
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post #16939 of 30452 Old 03-04-2014, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

I haven't dug into DD's math, but the power he's talking about is to cleanly deliver the crest factor of highly dynamic content, not sustained average power. As I have mentioned before, I think that detection of clipping reproducing these peaks is difficult simply due to how our brain processes distortion. This is what Tom Danley talks about. He claims clipping of an 800 watt amp at sub-reference average power levels.

Besides, I support DD without even checking the basis behind his numbers! smile.gif Not because I'm certain his assertions are definitely correct, but because if he is I'm all good. tongue.gifbiggrin.gif


I read the link after posting last night and it is pretty interesting. Even more reason to have high efficiency speakers that's for sure!
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post #16940 of 30452 Old 03-04-2014, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

DD,

You use the 212HT in your above scenario. Quick question. Does the calculation factor in the use of multiple speakers?

I'm confident that no 212HT owner out there is going to be striving for the playback level in your example using only one (1) speaker, correct?

So with the "theoretical" 3db sensitivity gain assumed from doubling the number of speakers (stereo music playback), wouldn't that cut your originally calculated power requirement in half?

Using that same train of thought, how would the extra sensitivity in a typical 5 or 7 channel HT setup (movie playback) factor into the equation?

Edit: My phone sucks...Quoted the wrong post originally.

Good points Austin and all phones suck as word processors ... wink.gif

All of this relates to listening at the top of the listening tolerance threshold and as LB said, having to use earplugs during a listening test shows exactly how crazy we all are ... cool.gifeek.gif

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post #16941 of 30452 Old 03-04-2014, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

I'm confident that no 212HT owner out there is going to be striving for the playback level in your example using only one (1) speaker, correct?

That is incorrect. I have a speaker capable of handling 2000 watts program, and I want all that capability at my disposal. Awesome power handling is one of the reasons I bought JTR in the first place. It's akin to putting a VW engine in a Corvette. After all, no need for a top speed of 160 mph around town. But then it's not a Corvette anymore as far as I'm concerned, even though it has the chassis, tires, and everything else it needs to go fast.

Besides, what about being prepared for block parties or park parties? smile.gif

Jeez, you're all so practical around here...tongue.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #16942 of 30452 Old 03-04-2014, 07:05 AM
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I never thought I would read popalock and practical in the same sentence. smile.gif

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NWCgrad's Mostly DIY Basement HT - http://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-gen...sement-ht.html
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post #16943 of 30452 Old 03-04-2014, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post


Besides, what about being prepared for block parties or park parties? smile.gif

This is a great point, it was frustrating at our park gtg that the inuke was clipping long before the Noesis were at their limit. It was very loud but I wanted more.
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post #16944 of 30452 Old 03-04-2014, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post


Besides, what about being prepared for block parties or park parties? smile.gif

Horses for courses.

Trying to have it both ways usually leads to some snags ... but (and it's a big one tongue.gif ) JTR/Danley et al are the best options in that very narrow class (high fidelity with serious sackage) . smile.gif

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post #16945 of 30452 Old 03-04-2014, 07:46 AM
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That is incorrect. I have a speaker capable of handling 2000 watts program, and I want all that capability at my disposal. Awesome power handling is one of the reasons I bought JTR in the first place. It's akin to putting a VW engine in a Corvette. After all, no need for a top speed of 160 mph around town. But then it's not a Corvette anymore as far as I'm concerned, even though it has the chassis, tires, and everything else it needs to go fast.

Besides, what about being prepared for block parties or park parties? smile.gif

Jeez, you're all so practical around here...tongue.gifbiggrin.gif

My point exactly. Why pay thousands of dollars for additional capability for a higher end pro speaker just to hold it back with a receiver or low watt amp.Why buy a high performance car just to put a low performance engine to run it.

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post #16946 of 30452 Old 03-04-2014, 08:00 AM
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Still... I'd love to do a blind A/B switch level matched for you guys at reference volume and watch you squirm as you go back and forth slowly coming to the realization that there is no way that you are going to be able to tell which is the avr and which is the amp. I've been there. smile.gif
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post #16947 of 30452 Old 03-04-2014, 08:05 AM
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Horses for courses.

Absolutely. Whatever makes you happy. I'm just giving my take on it. I fully support the LABGG community. There are many on this thread and I'm non-discriminatory. smile.gif
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post #16948 of 30452 Old 03-04-2014, 08:24 AM
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I am currently designing my dedicated theater. I plan on purchasing JTR speakers. They will either by the 212's or the 228 for the front. I have already built 2 dual opposed subs with the Dayton 18's. I used Gorillas plan to build them. I am planning out my stage right now, I will be using an AT screen. I can save a bit of space by putting the subwoofers sideways with the drivers facing the walls vs drivers facing the screen. Are there advantage/disadvantages to this?
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post #16949 of 30452 Old 03-04-2014, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

Still... I'd love to do a blind A/B switch level matched for you guys at reference volume and watch you squirm as you go back and forth slowly coming to the realization that there is no way that you are going to be able to tell which is the avr and which is the amp. I've been there. smile.gif
Your referring to 2 channel tests. Any high quality avr should be able to do 2 channel with HE/HS speakers just fine. Same goes for a 2 channel amp.

HT is about 5, 7, 9, or 11 speakers being driven. That is when the avr starts to fail. I have T12s for the LCR and Mythos tens for the SS and RS. They are supposedly 93dbs. Watching a highly dynamic movie or concert at reference level results in noticeably more listening fatigue at the end then it does when watching the same show (different day) powered with a 3 channel amp and letting the avr drive the 4 surrounds.

When watching the show at reference powered with the avr I usually cannot wait for it to end so I can turn the volume down. My ears start hurting about a half hour into it. When the amp is added I enjoy the show and do not even think about the volume. This difference is why I own an amp.
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post #16950 of 30452 Old 03-04-2014, 08:39 AM
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Actually a slight advantage with the woofers hopefully being closer to the same distance away from you. It is the exact reason I ended up going that direction with the last build I am just completing. You can see the two boxes supporting the Danleys on the bottom have 2 18's each, then the other two out from them will go up top.



Each of those 4 boxes house 2 18's dual opposed.

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