Official JTR speaker thread - Page 566 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 03-05-2014, 03:07 PM
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Now there's an idea! They could hold the GTG at Arrowhead. It is still called Arrowhead and not something like Jamba Juice Stadium, right.? tongue.gif

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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

You can use the Fifty's for rear surrounds if you want smile.gif Heh

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Old 03-05-2014, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post

Well this is my point.
After many blown tweeters I even had two separate professional calibrators come in to setup my surround systems powered by receivers. Same results.

Not to mention the tinny highs , mediocre bass, and constant headaches when driving my setups on a receiver vs. Real LG 14K.

Somebody call a doctor!!!

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Old 03-05-2014, 03:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Somebody call a doctor!!!

I did. Dr. External amp cured my ear bleeding sessions and saved me from selling the setups I had at the time.smile.gif
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Old 03-05-2014, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post

Let me ask you this, have you ever heard 7 or 9 speakers being ran on a avr vs high watt external amp? And Im not talking about leftovers being9 used for surrounds, sattellite speakers with naturally high crossovers etc. Have you heard a setup with something such as five or seven JTR Noesis being ran at the same time in full range mode on a avr vs. amp to reference and beyond?

Cause I have. But who else has before they comment on the subject?

When you say 'full range,' I take it you mean setting speakers to 'Large' for all 7 speakers and playing past reference in multi channel stereo mode to the point of distortion? I'm trying to understand everything you're factoring in since many variables need to be properly identified.

And could you expand on the details of your test....such as which 7 noesis speakers did you use, which amp(s) and power rating per channel, room and treatment details, and your test procedure.

I have 7 Noesis (if 8LP can be considered part of the Noesis line) sitting here and I'd like to repeat the same or similar test.

---------------------------------------------------------------
current gear: lcr JTR 212HT ~ quad JTR 8LP ~ dual JTR Orbit Shifters LFU ~ Elemental Designs eD6c ~ Marantz SR7008 ~ PT-AE8000U ~ Elite 176" 2.35 ATS
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Old 03-05-2014, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

swolephile,

You are officially invited to the next amp blind testing in KC. (we need a redux of our first attempt - compliments of Audyssey engaging after a power cycle foiling our meet's attempt) Or if that's too far - I think Gorilla83 plans to do a meet of the same kind in the future on the east coast.

The Yorkville Unity line is also exceptionally sensitive and I'd expect no detectable difference.

Which amp and which AVR did you compare?

I suspect 1 of 3 things. Either your AVR wasn't matched to the impedance load properly, your AVR had a shortcoming of some sort, or you are listening at well above reference volumes to make a claim like this. There are multiple enthusiasts who have powered their hyper sensitive speakers off an AVR and compared to amps and come away shaking their heads at any kind of typical listening volumes up to reference. MKTheater, popalock (Denon AVR vs. Clone), n8dogg, and the KC crew (quite a few different AVRs and amps compared), including carp and I, being some seasoned folk who have played around with amp vs. avr and found no audible differences at typical (less than reference) listening volumes with high quality sensitive speakers.



this horse just keeps getting beat... and beat... and beat... tongue.gif

I should just not respond, because I'm surely not going to change anyone's opinion until they experience it themselves --- so what's the point.
Only that a sweeping statement like it's painfully obvious to see the difference between a competent AVR and a quality amp violates real world realtime testing with quick switching ability that some of us have participated in and relies instead of audio memory, which is often notoriously poor.


Oh and DD you are invited too! Gooddoc as well, and also Mr Brown. wink.gif

I may fly to KC to attend...and maybe offer $10,000 to anyone who can ID the a/b correctly wink.gif ...like this guy: http://tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/
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Old 03-05-2014, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

so well just need four 10000q amps and four 30 amp dedicated lines right?


I've seen two of the four volunteered so far! ;p

FWIW,
IIRC, the Shebourn 7-350 is class h.

Class H has an A/B output stage. The power rails are variable, which drives the efficiency. So the Sherbourn would be ok, but is severely underpowered. biggrin.gif (I risk insulting owners with that statement, but no insult intended! It's strictly an experiment thing wink.gif )
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Old 03-05-2014, 04:14 PM
 
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I would also like to add that I have never been able to tell the difference between an amp rated below 500 watts a channel and a receiver. So I would not expect to hear any difference with something such as a Sherbourne 350 watt multichannel amp.

I consider it the same as a receiver with less clipping.
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Old 03-05-2014, 04:16 PM
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The Noesis are only the horn based models:
212HT &212HT-LP
228HT
210RT
215RT

The Triples and Singles have Coaxial based Mid//HF drivers.

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Old 03-05-2014, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post

I may fly to KC to attend...and maybe offer $10,000 to anyone who can ID the a/b correctly wink.gif ...like this guy: http://tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/

I would attend for that. But I want the test outdoors between an AVR - any AVR of your choice - and my LG. And we'll do a single speaker so all that AVR power is available in a single channel. wink.gif

I believe amps of similar design - and most of different design - will be indistinguishable when clipping and distortion are below detection. But I'll put up matching dollars for my A/B challenge above. biggrin.gif
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Old 03-05-2014, 05:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post

When you say 'full range,' I take it you mean setting speakers to 'Large' for all 7 speakers and playing past reference in multi channel stereo mode to the point of distortion? I'm trying to understand everything you're factoring in since many variables need to be properly identified.

And could you expand on the details of your test....such as which 7 noesis speakers did you use, which amp(s) and power rating per channel, room and treatment details, and your test procedure.

I have 7 Noesis (if 8LP can be considered part of the Noesis line) sitting here and I'd like to repeat the same or similar test.

Do u have two Noesis 212's and five single 8's or triple 8's?
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Old 03-05-2014, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post

Well this is my point. There are many people on this website with strong statements on things they have not done before. Ive had setups running seven Cerwin Vega 215's, five Klipsch RF 7II's, nine Yorkville Unities, five Paradigm Sig 8's, seven Bic 1530's, seven Behringer VP2520's etc.

Ive used over 20 receivers ranging from cheap htib to the Onkyo UBER flagship TX NR 1000. All the receivers were drove into clipping.

After many blown tweeters I even had two separate professional calibrators come in to setup my surround systems powered by receivers. Same results.

Not to mention the tinny highs , mediocre bass, and constant headaches when driving my setups on a receiver vs. hearing them on a Real LG 14K.

Anyone can run a two channel setup with a crossover on a receiver vs a cheap low watt amp and to the conclusion there are no audible differwnces.But experiment with some of the other types of setups with all channels driven on a avr vs. uber high watt well made pro amps then I would like to have a serious conversation on this subject once you have more first hand experience multiple high power handling speakers.

Im not seeing any firsthand experience. Only broad sweeping statements when guys who have not been down this road but who theorize on how things will perform or sound based on limited experiencing using two channel playback or two mains coupled with high crossover bookshelves and sattelites traditional setups that dont need much power.




I remember you like being surrounded by large speakers and listening to music on all channel stereo. If I did this I'd want a high power amp too, especially if running all the speakers full range.

Gooddoc, if we do this outside and crank it up game over. Like I said before, we maxed out an inuke with the 212's at an outdoor GTG.
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Old 03-05-2014, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post



Do u have two Noesis 212's and five single 8's or triple 8's?

3~212
4~8lp

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current gear: lcr JTR 212HT ~ quad JTR 8LP ~ dual JTR Orbit Shifters LFU ~ Elemental Designs eD6c ~ Marantz SR7008 ~ PT-AE8000U ~ Elite 176" 2.35 ATS
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Old 03-05-2014, 06:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I remember you like being surrounded by large speakers and listening to music on all channel stereo. If I did this I'd want a high power amp too, especially if running all the speakers full range.

Gooddoc, if we do this outside and crank it up game over. Like I said before, we maxed out an inuke with the 212's at an outdoor GTG.

Was it the 6000 or the 3000 which was maxed out?
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Old 03-05-2014, 06:52 PM
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Hey guys I'm looking into going to a 8.2 setup. I am currently looking into 3 Jtr noesis 228s across the front. I would then move my cmt 340se center to a rear center and my 340s would be moved to side surround and I'd be running 170s as rear surround. The rest of my system is listed below... except the denon x4000.

How do u think the horns in the jtrs will blend with the ascends? Will it sound off?

Also are the horns on the jtrs in any way harsh sounding? When I listen to klipsch speakers my ears get a little fatigued but I never have experienced that with my ascends.

How are the 228s with music detail and clarity?

7.4 w/ denon x4100
JTR noesis 228s LCR
Ascend acoustics cmt 340se side ss.
ascend acoustics cbm170se rear ss
dual Verticle Martys/UXL 18 powered with inuke 6kw DSP
Dual rythmik fv15hps SOLD dual echo 21s will be taking there place!
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Old 03-05-2014, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Gooddoc, if we do this outside and crank it up game over. Like I said before, we maxed out an inuke with the 212's at an outdoor GTG.

Exactly. I'm not going to put $10 g's on the line for an uncertain outcome biggrin.gif
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Old 03-05-2014, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Quote:
We could have a 5.1 setup of JTR. Not sure we have available 7.1 at this point. But we could probably grab a couple other sensitive speakers and sub for the JTRs.

You can use the Fifty's for rear surrounds if you want smile.gif Heh
does this mean you are driving in for such a meet? smile.gif

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Old 03-05-2014, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newc33 View Post

Hey guys I'm looking into going to a 8.2 setup. I am currently looking into 3 Jtr noesis 228s across the front. I would then move my cmt 340se center to a rear center and my 340s would be moved to side surround and I'd be running 170s as rear surround. The rest of my system is listed below... except the denon x4000.

How do u think the horns in the jtrs will blend with the ascends? Will it sound off?

Also are the horns on the jtrs in any way harsh sounding? When I listen to klipsch speakers my ears get a little fatigued but I never have experienced that with my ascends.

How are the 228s with music detail and clarity?

I used to dislike horns when I heard Klipsch years ago in a hifi store for same reasons...JTR are nothing even close to harsh, even when pushed hard. With a good AVR and sub, the clarity and detail will spoil you and expose your music library's sinful soul full of any crappy recordings and production brouhahas...and eventually drive you mad to replace itunes/mp3s with CDs and upgrade vhs/beta/torrents with blu-rays. You've been warned.

And try three 228 with ascends...If it sounds good to you, put the money towards rebuying your media collection or take a look at SEO for surrounds.

Oh, and try 5.1 or 5.2 first...with treatments...Then move up to 7.1 or up as you wish or space/budget allows.

---------------------------------------------------------------
current gear: lcr JTR 212HT ~ quad JTR 8LP ~ dual JTR Orbit Shifters LFU ~ Elemental Designs eD6c ~ Marantz SR7008 ~ PT-AE8000U ~ Elite 176" 2.35 ATS
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Old 03-05-2014, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post

Was it the 6000 or the 3000 which was maxed out?

3000 and it seemed the 212's had a lot left in the tank.
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Old 03-05-2014, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post

I used to dislike horns when I heard Klipsch years ago in a hifi store for same reasons...JTR are nothing even close to harsh, even when pushed hard. With a good AVR and sub, the clarity and detail will spoil you and expose your music library's sinful soul full of any crappy recordings and production brouhahas...and eventually drive you mad to replace itunes/mp3s with CDs and upgrade vhs/beta/torrents with blu-rays. You've been warned.

And try three 228 with ascends...If it sounds good to you, put the money towards rebuying your media collection or take a look at SEO for surrounds.

Oh, and try 5.1 or 5.2 first...with treatments...Then move up to 7.1 or up as you wish or space/budget allows.

That's funny u say that because I already have bought tons of actuall CDs and blu rays for movies I buy nothing but blue rays simply because my ascends showed me just how much detail and fullness I lose with MP3s and I tunes. I mean literally I can't stand anything but a CD for music and blu ray for movie anymore.

And are u saying u think the 228s WOULD blend well enough with the the rest of my system when setup the way I stated before?

7.4 w/ denon x4100
JTR noesis 228s LCR
Ascend acoustics cmt 340se side ss.
ascend acoustics cbm170se rear ss
dual Verticle Martys/UXL 18 powered with inuke 6kw DSP
Dual rythmik fv15hps SOLD dual echo 21s will be taking there place!
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Old 03-05-2014, 07:44 PM
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Also I am already running a 5.2 system... just not with treatments..

7.4 w/ denon x4100
JTR noesis 228s LCR
Ascend acoustics cmt 340se side ss.
ascend acoustics cbm170se rear ss
dual Verticle Martys/UXL 18 powered with inuke 6kw DSP
Dual rythmik fv15hps SOLD dual echo 21s will be taking there place!
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Old 03-05-2014, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newc33 View Post

That's funny u say that because I already have bought tons of actuall CDs and for movies I buy nothing but blue rays simply because my ascends showed me just how much detail and fullness I lose with MP3s and I tunes. I mean literally I can't stand anything but a CD for music and blu ray for movie anymore.

And are u saying u think the 228s WOULD blend well enough with the the rest of my system when setup the way I stated before?

You're ahead of the curve my friend...I'm buying all my favorite digital downloads on cd and already bought 40+ Blu-rays in past month.

I didn't comment on the ascends because I have never heard them... But I'm sure someone on here has and can give some feedback. But I will say that I like to timbre match with like-kind speakers, but your room, treatments, and ears will really be the judge of what you can live with or nitpick.

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current gear: lcr JTR 212HT ~ quad JTR 8LP ~ dual JTR Orbit Shifters LFU ~ Elemental Designs eD6c ~ Marantz SR7008 ~ PT-AE8000U ~ Elite 176" 2.35 ATS
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Old 03-05-2014, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newc33 View Post

Also I am already running a 5.2 system... just not with treatments..

I'm still waiting to treat my room, and my setup sounds amazing...and it can only get better. If music is high on your list, have you considered two 212 and 228 as center? Or even two 210RT with 228 as center? I am now a 80/20 when I thought I'd be a 50/50 music/movies as a result of my 212s.

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current gear: lcr JTR 212HT ~ quad JTR 8LP ~ dual JTR Orbit Shifters LFU ~ Elemental Designs eD6c ~ Marantz SR7008 ~ PT-AE8000U ~ Elite 176" 2.35 ATS
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Old 03-05-2014, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

does this mean you are driving in for such a meet? smile.gif

Not if you plan on insulting me by using the 50's for rear surrounds biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif Which I know you wouldn't!!! Hehe. It's a long haul, I might have to leave the big boys home and fly, but I am open-minded. Things change for me after 4-26 and my accounts start to recover, so anything is possible, but certainly not before then biggrin.gif
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Old 03-05-2014, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post

I'm still waiting to treat my room, and my setup sounds amazing...and it can only get better. If music is high on your list, have you considered two 212 and 228 as center? Or even two 210RT with 228 as center? I am now a 80/20 when I thought I'd be a 50/50 music/movies as a result of my 212s.

Yeah I'd love 212s but there not really in the budget plus I don't think I need that kind of spl

7.4 w/ denon x4100
JTR noesis 228s LCR
Ascend acoustics cmt 340se side ss.
ascend acoustics cbm170se rear ss
dual Verticle Martys/UXL 18 powered with inuke 6kw DSP
Dual rythmik fv15hps SOLD dual echo 21s will be taking there place!
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Old 03-05-2014, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by newc33 View Post

Yeah I'd love 212s but there not really in the budget plus I don't think I need that kind of spl

It's not even the spl...it's just a more dynamic sound, if you will...but honestly, I've heard the 228 and those are just as capable for majority of your listening... Both music and movies.

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Old 03-05-2014, 08:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

3000 and it seemed the 212's had a lot left in the tank.

Ok that is what I figured. Below 500 watts a channel @ 8ohms is receiver territory to me. So the amp clipping does not surprise me.
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Old 03-05-2014, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post

Was it the 6000 or the 3000 which was maxed out?

3000 and it seemed the 212's had a lot left in the tank.

If the iNuke 3000 puts out a conservative 500 watts per channel to the four ohm 212ht, then an amp capable of putting out 2000 watts per channel would put out 6 more dB and max out the power rating on the 212ht.

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Old 03-05-2014, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post

I would also like to add that I have never been able to tell the difference between an amp rated below 500 watts a channel and a receiver. So I would not expect to hear any difference with something such as a Sherbourne 350 watt multichannel amp.

I consider it the same as a receiver with less clipping.

Please point me in the direction of a receiver being able to put out over 800watts @ 4ohm for your front three speakers confused.gif
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Old 03-05-2014, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by HTPCat View Post

Awesome...looking forward to the GTG biggrin.gif

At what height are people placing their speakers behind their AT screens relative to the CD in the speaker? Currently my T12s are raised aproximately 4" and the CD is at the top making it at ear height of 37". I am thinking the best height would be to keep the CD at ear height by putting the CD on the bottom (actually just turning the speakers upside down) and placing them at 29" from the floor. The screen bottom will be at 23" from the floor so the speakers will be just above the screen bottom frame. I am wondering as well if the T12s can be placed up against the wall with some foam to absorb any reflections back on the front wall and not sure about toe in which of course takes up more room - I would like to keep the false wall to no bigger than 24" wide and will need a little room from the T12s to the screen I would imagine an inch or two. Thoughts .....

The compression drivers for my 228HT's are right at 37" high behind my AT screen with the stands that I made.
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Old 03-05-2014, 10:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Please point me in the direction of a receiver being able to put out over 800watts @ 4ohm for your front three speakers confused.gif

Never said there was such a thing? But im talking all channels driven, not just bulk of power to mains with the reserves with reduced power to surrounds due to multiple channels sharing one power supply. For what the Sherbourne puts out I consider it receiver territory. Limited dynamics. Will get you to reference with many simpler systems. Not enough power to get multiple high power handling speakers to their full potential.

And audibly, they sound the same as a receiver to me but less clipping.
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