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post #17011 of 30452 Old 03-05-2014, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Still... I'd love to do a blind A/B switch level matched for you guys at reference volume and watch you squirm as you go back and forth slowly coming to the realization that there is no way that you are going to be able to tell which is the avr and which is the amp. I've been there. smile.gif
Running seven Unities on a AVR vs. multiple high watt external amps is painfully obvious.

swolephile,

You are officially invited to the next amp blind testing in KC. (we need a redux of our first attempt - compliments of Audyssey engaging after a power cycle foiling our meet's attempt) Or if that's too far - I think Gorilla83 plans to do a meet of the same kind in the future on the east coast.

The Yorkville Unity line is also exceptionally sensitive and I'd expect no detectable difference.

Which amp and which AVR did you compare?

I suspect 1 of 3 things. Either your AVR wasn't matched to the impedance load properly, your AVR had a shortcoming of some sort, or you are listening at well above reference volumes to make a claim like this. There are multiple enthusiasts who have powered their hyper sensitive speakers off an AVR and compared to amps and come away shaking their heads at any kind of typical listening volumes up to reference. MKTheater, popalock (Denon AVR vs. Clone), n8dogg, and the KC crew (quite a few different AVRs and amps compared), including carp and I, being some seasoned folk who have played around with amp vs. avr and found no audible differences at typical (less than reference) listening volumes with high quality sensitive speakers.



this horse just keeps getting beat... and beat... and beat... tongue.gif

I should just not respond, because I'm surely not going to change anyone's opinion until they experience it themselves --- so what's the point.
Only that a sweeping statement like it's painfully obvious to see the difference between a competent AVR and a quality amp violates real world realtime testing with quick switching ability that some of us have participated in and relies instead of audio memory, which is often notoriously poor.


Oh and DD you are invited too! Gooddoc as well, and also Mr Brown. wink.gif

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post #17012 of 30452 Old 03-05-2014, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

swolephile,

You are officially invited to the next amp blind testing in KC. (we need a redux of our first attempt - compliments of Audyssey engaging after a power cycle foiling our meet's attempt) Or if that's too far - I think Gorilla83 plans to do a meet of the same kind in the future on the east coast.

The Yorkville Unity lines is also exceptionally sensitive and I'd expect no detectable difference.

Which amp and which AVR did you compare?

I suspect 1 of 3 things. Either your AVR wasn't matched to the impedance load properly, your AVR had a shortcoming of some sort, or you are listening at well above reference volumes to make a claim like this. There are multiple enthusiasts who have powered their hyper sensitive speakers off an AVR and compared to amps and come away shaking their heads at any kind of typical listening volumes up to reference. MKTheater, popalock, and the KC crew, including carp and I, being some notable handles.



this horse just keeps getting beat... and beat... and beat... tongue.gif


Oh and DD you are invited too! Gooddoc as well, and also Mr Brown. wink.gif

Let me ask you this, have you ever heard 7 or 9 speakers being ran on a avr vs high watt external amp? And Im not talking about leftovers being used for surrounds, sattellite speakers with naturally high crossovers etc. Have you heard a setup with something such as five or seven JTR Noesis being ran at the same time in full range mode on a avr vs. amp to reference and beyond?

Cause I have. But who else has before they comment on the subject?

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post #17013 of 30452 Old 03-05-2014, 01:21 PM
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post #17014 of 30452 Old 03-05-2014, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post

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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

swolephile,

You are officially invited to the next amp blind testing in KC. (we need a redux of our first attempt - compliments of Audyssey engaging after a power cycle foiling our meet's attempt) Or if that's too far - I think Gorilla83 plans to do a meet of the same kind in the future on the east coast.

The Yorkville Unity lines is also exceptionally sensitive and I'd expect no detectable difference.

Which amp and which AVR did you compare?

I suspect 1 of 3 things. Either your AVR wasn't matched to the impedance load properly, your AVR had a shortcoming of some sort, or you are listening at well above reference volumes to make a claim like this. There are multiple enthusiasts who have powered their hyper sensitive speakers off an AVR and compared to amps and come away shaking their heads at any kind of typical listening volumes up to reference. MKTheater, popalock, and the KC crew, including carp and I, being some notable handles.



this horse just keeps getting beat... and beat... and beat... tongue.gif


Oh and DD you are invited too! Gooddoc as well, and also Mr Brown. wink.gif

Let me ask you this, have you ever heard 7 or 9 speakers being ran on a avr vs high watt external amp? And Im not talking about leftovers being used for surrounds, sattellite speakers with naturally high crossovers etc. Have you heard a setup with something such as five or seven JTR Noesis being ran at the same time in full range mode on a avr vs. amp to reference and beyond?

Cause I have. But who else has before they comment on the subject?

We'll aim to test this at a KC g2g this year.

Give us suggestions on amps to use.

I have the Sherbourn 7-350 we could use vs. say an Onkyo 3008 that Mr Smither's has.

We could have a 5.1 setup of JTR. Not sure we have available 7.1 at this point. But we could probably grab a couple other sensitive speakers and sub for the JTRs.

Carps tri way 212HT, my tri way 228HT - maybe a pair of Carp's eD cinema 6 for the rear surround or something?

You are right - we haven't tested seven speaker surround with AVR vs. Amp. We'll try to do so.


We've planned to do an Auto EQ comparison this year as well (Audyssey vs. YAPO, vs MACC, vs. whatever) - so we could slip this test into the same meet and have the opinions of a bunch of enthusiasts thrown up in the meet thread.

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post #17015 of 30452 Old 03-05-2014, 01:26 PM
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jbrown15,

good graphic!

I was looking for a pic of beating a dead horse for my post --- actually looking for a bloody meat pulp - so typed in road kill as a google image search to find something of that nature. There is some grotesque stuff out there, and I didn't even bother to link one. It's not all animals either. eek.gif

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post #17016 of 30452 Old 03-05-2014, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

swolephile,

You are officially invited to the next amp blind testing in KC. (we need a redux of our first attempt - compliments of Audyssey engaging after a power cycle foiling our meet's attempt) Or if that's too far - I think Gorilla83 plans to do a meet of the same kind in the future on the east coast.

The Yorkville Unity lines is also exceptionally sensitive and I'd expect no detectable difference.

Which amp and which AVR did you compare?

I suspect 1 of 3 things. Either your AVR wasn't matched to the impedance load properly, your AVR had a shortcoming of some sort, or you are listening at well above reference volumes to make a claim like this. There are multiple enthusiasts who have powered their hyper sensitive speakers off an AVR and compared to amps and come away shaking their heads at any kind of typical listening volumes up to reference. MKTheater, popalock, and the KC crew, including carp and I, being some notable handles.



this horse just keeps getting beat... and beat... and beat... tongue.gif


Oh and DD you are invited too! Gooddoc as well, and also Mr Brown. wink.gif

I don't think my ears are any better than you guys who were at the first meet smile.gif. The issue for me is not whether an amp vs. an AVR can be reliably identified in an A/B blind test up to reference volume. Based on your prior reports and the fact that I have blown multiple tweeters due to failure to detect distortion fast enough, I have no reason to doubt that I would likely fail.

I have one reason for wanting the amp I own and one reason for not being entirely convinced the testing format will prove beyond a doubt there is no difference:

1) I prefer to match my amp to the capability of the driver in the box, not based on listening distance or preferred volume. I know, it's crazy, but I look at it the same as an active design or sub build. So no matter what, the amp stays. Besides, I know I'm ready for whatever block party rolls through my neighborhood. biggrin.gif

2) Based on my historical record of not identifying distortion and blowing tweeters in the past, I'm not convinced that the A/B format will prove that distortion is not present and I'm just not going to hear it. Again, sounds crazy, but I'm convinced the brain has a phenomenal ability to filter distortion. At least mine does. But that doesn't mean that listening for an extended period will not result in listening fatigue over time, because I've experienced that as well without being able to identify it's exact cause when it happens. Not sure how to test for that?

Just my thoughts on it and to be clear, I don't doubt your experiences at all. I've spent enough time with many of you to truly trust your reports and impressions. I would still be interested in participating in the test though and i do have the Tom Danley high dynamic tracks we could play.
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post #17017 of 30452 Old 03-05-2014, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

We'll aim to test this at a KC g2g this year.

Give us suggestions on amps to use.

I have the Sherbourn 7-350 we could use vs. say an Onkyo 3008 that Mr Smither's has.

We could have a 5.1 setup of JTR. Not sure we have available 7.1 at this point. But we could probably grab a couple other sensitive speakers and sub for the JTRs.

Carps tri way 212HT, my tri way 228HT - maybe a pair of Carp's eD cinema 6 for the rear surround or something?

You are right - we haven't tested seven speaker surround with AVR vs. Amp. We'll try to do so.


We've planned to do an Auto EQ comparison this year as well (Audyssey vs. YAPO, vs MACC, vs. whatever) - so we could slip this test into the same meet and have the opinions of a bunch of enthusiasts thrown up in the meet thread.

I'll say right now that I would want a 2000+ watt A/B output design amplifier. Anything less IMO would not be definitive. No class D for me on this one. Yes, I'm an talking LG 10000Q class amp biggrin.gif
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post #17018 of 30452 Old 03-05-2014, 01:33 PM
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I suppose you have your reasons but Jeff's crossover work is why many of us buy his speakers. I doubt the they could be setup better unless you have expierence with a really good DSP unit (Dolby Lake). Perhaps you do and if so it wouldn't hurt to ask. What speaker model are you looking at?

I'd prefer an actively crossed over speakers. In my research and others, Active crossovers are the preferred way to go - it is more close to just connecting the driver directly to the amplifier and forego impedance, inductors and capacitors and other frequency-related issues associated with a passive.. .. The 228s piqued my interest and since I'm going to use Trinnov room correction,I'd ideally like to actively cross my LCRs as that is how it is ideally used. Since it's not as critical for surround,, I'll use passively crossed speakers). I'm demoing some Questeds now (would use LT-10s for fronts) and the ribbon has a wonderful top end, but I worry about output in the smaller versions for surrounds. I am considering Seatons, too. Thanks!

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post #17019 of 30452 Old 03-05-2014, 01:35 PM
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Archaea,

Maybe people would listen to you if you crossed over to the ULF side. Three little words and your street cred will sky rocket:

"I love 6Hz"

Just say it...so every one can agree with you we can end this damn amp debate!
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post #17020 of 30452 Old 03-05-2014, 01:38 PM
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No problem, glad to help spread the AT gospel around ... smile.gif

Re the build Nyal and DD mentioned, I met Quack724 (he is from the East Bay) and demoed my Triple 12's to him before he bought them for his HT. He has a couple of S1's as well but isn't active on the boards anymore (must have a life tongue.gif). Good guy though and I'm thinking he will be at the GTG so you can meet him there.
Awesome...looking forward to the GTG biggrin.gif

At what height are people placing their speakers behind their AT screens relative to the CD in the speaker? Currently my T12s are raised aproximately 4" and the CD is at the top making it at ear height of 37". I am thinking the best height would be to keep the CD at ear height by putting the CD on the bottom (actually just turning the speakers upside down) and placing them at 29" from the floor. The screen bottom will be at 23" from the floor so the speakers will be just above the screen bottom frame. I am wondering as well if the T12s can be placed up against the wall with some foam to absorb any reflections back on the front wall and not sure about toe in which of course takes up more room - I would like to keep the false wall to no bigger than 24" wide and will need a little room from the T12s to the screen I would imagine an inch or two. Thoughts .....

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post #17021 of 30452 Old 03-05-2014, 01:39 PM
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Lol

Ill not give up my integrity for street cred. Nice try.

;p
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post #17022 of 30452 Old 03-05-2014, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

I'll say right now that I would want a 2000+ watt A/B output design amplifier. Anything less IMO would not be definitive. No class D for me on this one. Yes, I'm an talking LG 10000Q class amp biggrin.gif

+1 smile.gif
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post #17023 of 30452 Old 03-05-2014, 01:46 PM
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so well just need four 10000q amps and four 30 amp dedicated lines right?


I've seen two of the four volunteered so far! ;p

FWIW,
IIRC, the Shebourn 7-350 is class h.
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post #17024 of 30452 Old 03-05-2014, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

I'll say right now that I would want a 2000+ watt A/B output design amplifier. Anything less IMO would not be definitive. No class D for me on this one. Yes, I'm an talking LG 10000Q class amp biggrin.gif
Great thinking Gooddoc.

Archaea, make sure that you get as many different classes of amps as possible when doing your blind test.
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post #17025 of 30452 Old 03-05-2014, 01:52 PM
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We could have a 5.1 setup of JTR. Not sure we have available 7.1 at this point. But we could probably grab a couple other sensitive speakers and sub for the JTRs.

You can use the Fifty's for rear surrounds if you want smile.gif Heh

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post #17026 of 30452 Old 03-05-2014, 01:53 PM
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Lol

Ill not give up my integrity for street cred. Nice try.

;p

Dang... thought I had ya.
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post #17027 of 30452 Old 03-05-2014, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

We'll aim to test this at a KC g2g this year.

Give us suggestions on amps to use.

I have the Sherbourn 7-350 we could use vs. say an Onkyo 3008 that Mr Smither's has.

We could have a 5.1 setup of JTR. Not sure we have available 7.1 at this point. But we could probably grab a couple other sensitive speakers and sub for the JTRs.

Carps tri way 212HT, my tri way 228HT - maybe a pair of Carp's eD cinema 6 for the rear surround or something?

You are right - we haven't tested seven speaker surround with AVR vs. Amp. We'll try to do so.


We've planned to do an Auto EQ comparison this year as well (Audyssey vs. YAPO, vs MACC, vs. whatever) - so we could slip this test into the same meet and have the opinions of a bunch of enthusiasts thrown up in the meet thread.

Well this is my point. There are many people on this website with strong statements on things they have not done before. Ive had setups running seven Cerwin Vega 215's, five Klipsch RF 7II's, nine Yorkville Unities, five Paradigm Sig 8's, seven Bic 1530's, seven Behringer VP2520's etc.

Ive used over 20 receivers ranging from cheap htib to the Onkyo UBER flagship TX NR 1000. All the receivers were drove into clipping.

After many blown tweeters I even had two separate professional calibrators come in to setup my surround systems powered by receivers. Same results.

Not to mention the tinny highs , mediocre bass, and constant headaches when driving my setups on a receiver vs. hearing them on a Real LG 14K.

Anyone can run a two channel setup with a crossover on a receiver vs a cheap low watt amp and to the conclusion there are no audible differwnces.But experiment with some of the other types of setups with all channels driven on a avr vs. uber high watt well made pro amps then I would like to have a serious conversation on this subject once you have more first hand experience multiple high power handling speakers.

Im not seeing any firsthand experience. Only broad sweeping statements when guys who have not been down this road but who theorize on how things will perform or sound based on limited experiencing using two channel playback or two mains coupled with high crossover bookshelves and sattelites traditional setups that dont need much power.
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post #17028 of 30452 Old 03-05-2014, 02:07 PM
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Now there's an idea! They could hold the GTG at Arrowhead. It is still called Arrowhead and not something like Jamba Juice Stadium, right.? tongue.gif

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You can use the Fifty's for rear surrounds if you want smile.gif Heh

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post #17029 of 30452 Old 03-05-2014, 02:36 PM
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Well this is my point.
After many blown tweeters I even had two separate professional calibrators come in to setup my surround systems powered by receivers. Same results.

Not to mention the tinny highs , mediocre bass, and constant headaches when driving my setups on a receiver vs. Real LG 14K.

Somebody call a doctor!!!

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post #17030 of 30452 Old 03-05-2014, 02:45 PM
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Somebody call a doctor!!!

I did. Dr. External amp cured my ear bleeding sessions and saved me from selling the setups I had at the time.smile.gif

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post #17031 of 30452 Old 03-05-2014, 02:46 PM
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Let me ask you this, have you ever heard 7 or 9 speakers being ran on a avr vs high watt external amp? And Im not talking about leftovers being9 used for surrounds, sattellite speakers with naturally high crossovers etc. Have you heard a setup with something such as five or seven JTR Noesis being ran at the same time in full range mode on a avr vs. amp to reference and beyond?

Cause I have. But who else has before they comment on the subject?

When you say 'full range,' I take it you mean setting speakers to 'Large' for all 7 speakers and playing past reference in multi channel stereo mode to the point of distortion? I'm trying to understand everything you're factoring in since many variables need to be properly identified.

And could you expand on the details of your test....such as which 7 noesis speakers did you use, which amp(s) and power rating per channel, room and treatment details, and your test procedure.

I have 7 Noesis (if 8LP can be considered part of the Noesis line) sitting here and I'd like to repeat the same or similar test.

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post #17032 of 30452 Old 03-05-2014, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

swolephile,

You are officially invited to the next amp blind testing in KC. (we need a redux of our first attempt - compliments of Audyssey engaging after a power cycle foiling our meet's attempt) Or if that's too far - I think Gorilla83 plans to do a meet of the same kind in the future on the east coast.

The Yorkville Unity line is also exceptionally sensitive and I'd expect no detectable difference.

Which amp and which AVR did you compare?

I suspect 1 of 3 things. Either your AVR wasn't matched to the impedance load properly, your AVR had a shortcoming of some sort, or you are listening at well above reference volumes to make a claim like this. There are multiple enthusiasts who have powered their hyper sensitive speakers off an AVR and compared to amps and come away shaking their heads at any kind of typical listening volumes up to reference. MKTheater, popalock (Denon AVR vs. Clone), n8dogg, and the KC crew (quite a few different AVRs and amps compared), including carp and I, being some seasoned folk who have played around with amp vs. avr and found no audible differences at typical (less than reference) listening volumes with high quality sensitive speakers.



this horse just keeps getting beat... and beat... and beat... tongue.gif

I should just not respond, because I'm surely not going to change anyone's opinion until they experience it themselves --- so what's the point.
Only that a sweeping statement like it's painfully obvious to see the difference between a competent AVR and a quality amp violates real world realtime testing with quick switching ability that some of us have participated in and relies instead of audio memory, which is often notoriously poor.


Oh and DD you are invited too! Gooddoc as well, and also Mr Brown. wink.gif

I may fly to KC to attend...and maybe offer $10,000 to anyone who can ID the a/b correctly wink.gif ...like this guy: http://tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/
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post #17033 of 30452 Old 03-05-2014, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

so well just need four 10000q amps and four 30 amp dedicated lines right?


I've seen two of the four volunteered so far! ;p

FWIW,
IIRC, the Shebourn 7-350 is class h.

Class H has an A/B output stage. The power rails are variable, which drives the efficiency. So the Sherbourn would be ok, but is severely underpowered. biggrin.gif (I risk insulting owners with that statement, but no insult intended! It's strictly an experiment thing wink.gif )
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post #17034 of 30452 Old 03-05-2014, 03:14 PM
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I would also like to add that I have never been able to tell the difference between an amp rated below 500 watts a channel and a receiver. So I would not expect to hear any difference with something such as a Sherbourne 350 watt multichannel amp.

I consider it the same as a receiver with less clipping.

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post #17035 of 30452 Old 03-05-2014, 03:16 PM
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The Noesis are only the horn based models:
212HT &212HT-LP
228HT
210RT
215RT

The Triples and Singles have Coaxial based Mid//HF drivers.

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post #17036 of 30452 Old 03-05-2014, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post

I may fly to KC to attend...and maybe offer $10,000 to anyone who can ID the a/b correctly wink.gif ...like this guy: http://tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/

I would attend for that. But I want the test outdoors between an AVR - any AVR of your choice - and my LG. And we'll do a single speaker so all that AVR power is available in a single channel. wink.gif

I believe amps of similar design - and most of different design - will be indistinguishable when clipping and distortion are below detection. But I'll put up matching dollars for my A/B challenge above. biggrin.gif
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post #17037 of 30452 Old 03-05-2014, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post

When you say 'full range,' I take it you mean setting speakers to 'Large' for all 7 speakers and playing past reference in multi channel stereo mode to the point of distortion? I'm trying to understand everything you're factoring in since many variables need to be properly identified.

And could you expand on the details of your test....such as which 7 noesis speakers did you use, which amp(s) and power rating per channel, room and treatment details, and your test procedure.

I have 7 Noesis (if 8LP can be considered part of the Noesis line) sitting here and I'd like to repeat the same or similar test.

Do u have two Noesis 212's and five single 8's or triple 8's?

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post #17038 of 30452 Old 03-05-2014, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post

Well this is my point. There are many people on this website with strong statements on things they have not done before. Ive had setups running seven Cerwin Vega 215's, five Klipsch RF 7II's, nine Yorkville Unities, five Paradigm Sig 8's, seven Bic 1530's, seven Behringer VP2520's etc.

Ive used over 20 receivers ranging from cheap htib to the Onkyo UBER flagship TX NR 1000. All the receivers were drove into clipping.

After many blown tweeters I even had two separate professional calibrators come in to setup my surround systems powered by receivers. Same results.

Not to mention the tinny highs , mediocre bass, and constant headaches when driving my setups on a receiver vs. hearing them on a Real LG 14K.

Anyone can run a two channel setup with a crossover on a receiver vs a cheap low watt amp and to the conclusion there are no audible differwnces.But experiment with some of the other types of setups with all channels driven on a avr vs. uber high watt well made pro amps then I would like to have a serious conversation on this subject once you have more first hand experience multiple high power handling speakers.

Im not seeing any firsthand experience. Only broad sweeping statements when guys who have not been down this road but who theorize on how things will perform or sound based on limited experiencing using two channel playback or two mains coupled with high crossover bookshelves and sattelites traditional setups that dont need much power.




I remember you like being surrounded by large speakers and listening to music on all channel stereo. If I did this I'd want a high power amp too, especially if running all the speakers full range.

Gooddoc, if we do this outside and crank it up game over. Like I said before, we maxed out an inuke with the 212's at an outdoor GTG.
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post #17039 of 30452 Old 03-05-2014, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post



Do u have two Noesis 212's and five single 8's or triple 8's?

3~212
4~8lp

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post #17040 of 30452 Old 03-05-2014, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

I remember you like being surrounded by large speakers and listening to music on all channel stereo. If I did this I'd want a high power amp too, especially if running all the speakers full range.

Gooddoc, if we do this outside and crank it up game over. Like I said before, we maxed out an inuke with the 212's at an outdoor GTG.

Was it the 6000 or the 3000 which was maxed out?

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