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post #17071 of 28212 Old 03-05-2014, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

I'm still not aware of any receiver that even comes close to over 500watts @ 4ohms all channels driven.



So are you planning on taking Archaea up on his offer to go to his amp GTG?

Once again, I'm not saying there is a 500 watt a channel receiver available. I'm merely saying I've never heard any audible differences between any receiver and a 300 watt per channel, multichannel amp.

As for Archaea's offer, I would only go if there is some equipment there. Ive been there, done that with comparing receivers, low wattage amps,power supply limited multichannel amp, and double blind listening tests including quick two min switching between receivers and low/average watt amps on a two channel system.

That is not going to present to me anything I have not already heard firsthand. I need to see a five or seven channel system with multiple Noesis, Danley Sh 50's, Yorkville Unities, JBL Pro, or the like being all channels driven between avr and clone amp/LG 14k/Peavey IPR 7500 to show me something.
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post #17072 of 28212 Old 03-06-2014, 12:20 AM
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What's your current setup Swolephile?
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post #17073 of 28212 Old 03-06-2014, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post


So are you planning on taking Archaea up on his offer to go to his amp GTG?
The A/B switching challenge can only prove if one the amp/avrs are broken. Amps are designed to remain neutral with No added color. This design ensures that If all equipment is working properly a difference cannot be heard. If there is an obvious audible difference then something is wrong with that amp or it was purpose built with the intention to sound different.. Only when the amp/avr runs out of headroom and clipping occurs can differences be revealed.

This type of challenge has to be under clipping conditions. Clipping cause distortion = distortion causes harsh sound = harsh sound causes listing fatigue. Distortion also leads to a difference in the quality of the sound being reproduced. If someone is looking for the amp or avr to make a sound other then original reproduction it would no longer be considered neutral without color.

You also need a high wattage multichannel amp. 2 channel is too Easy for an avr. 7 channels is another animal entirely.

An A/B switching challenge is the wrong method to try to prove the theory: An amp vs AVR makes no difference in SQ.
Not hearing or detecting a difference is not the same as No Difference.

Archaea
I challenge you to a coin toss. Heads I win Tails you lose. smile.gif I know Shenanigans right? biggrin.gif

As long as the power source, be it avr or amp, maintains adequate headroom there will be no differences. Only when the power source fails to maintain adequate headroom can the SQ be affected. The more channels driven the harder it will be to maintain this headroom.

I noticed the general tones of posts about this theory are turning from "live let live" into "My way or the Highway attitudes". I think we all would love to have an agreeable valid testing method to prove this theory with an unbiased result.

Till then I'm tired of chasing my tail on this subject. smile.gif
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post #17074 of 28212 Old 03-06-2014, 06:52 AM
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Country, the problem is that designing a test for listening fatigue may not be possible. The question is two-fold. How much distortion must be present before it's detectable in a A/B switch test and how long does it take for any given level of undetectable distortion to lead to listening fatigue? The answer is probably variable depending on the individual, but we know that every speaker has increasing products of distortion as volume increases, yet we don't "hear it" consciously. But it is heard subconsciously by the brain, it's simply filtered. Tube amps have higher distortion, yet many say they sound better to them than solid state amps.

A couple of links below regarding distortion and detectability that are interesting.

http://www.silcom.com/~aludwig/EARS.htm#Distortion

http://www.silcom.com/~aludwig/Amplifier_distortion.htm

"Everest quotes research indicating that amplitude distortion has to reach a level of 3% to be audible. However this varies greatly depending on the distortion harmonic products, and on the sound source."

"My audibility threshold for clipping occurs at an output level around 5-10% of maximum output power, where roughly 1% of the digital samples are clipped."

"THD lumps together all of the harmonics, but in reality some harmonics sound a lot worse than others."

"So far I have mainly tested myself on one short music segment, the Vivaldi sample. Based on this, my detection threshold is close to a value of alpha = 0.3 for the SS case, where 1% of the samples are clipped, and I am 90% accurate in selecting the distorted file. This corresponds to an average power output equal to 9% of the maximum power output. Further testing can only result in a lower threshold. I am guessing that if I run my amps at 5% of their rated power that clipping will not be audible."

"Amplifiers are rated based on average power. It is not unusual for me to play music on my system (quite loud) at 10 Watts average power (based on an eyeball estimate from an oscilloscope display of the voltage at the speaker terminals). One of the music samples used here played at an average power of 10 Watts would require a peak power of over 800 Watts! Clipping is not at all uncommon."


Edit: For any good A/B test, IMO, the listeners have to be trained to identify signal distortion using sound files with deliberate increasing levels of quantifiable and known distortion levels. Once trained I suspect the sensitivity of the test will rise dramatically. Files to achieve this are in my links. (Sorry, links to .wav files broken). Also, added one more quote above
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post #17075 of 28212 Old 03-06-2014, 08:01 AM
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Yesterday I had a dear friend over for a visit. We don't see each other often, so had some catching up to do on what had been going on the last 6 months.

Besides the obvious presence of the Noesis' and Captivators, I told him that I had spent al lot of time with music and movies.
More so than ever before.
After an elaborate intro on Jeff and JTRs , and some on the rest of my gear, the first track was playing and after 20 seconds or so he just nodded and said : "I understand".biggrin.gif
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post #17076 of 28212 Old 03-06-2014, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by staaled View Post

Yesterday I had a dear friend over for a visit. We don't see each other often, so had some catching up to do on what had been going on the last 6 months.

Besides the obvious presence of the Noesis' and Captivators, I told him that I had spent al lot of time with music and movies.
More so than ever before.
After an elaborate intro on Jeff and JTRs , and some on the rest of my gear, the first track was playing and after 20 seconds or so he just nodded and said : "I understand".biggrin.gif

Ha, that's funny!

Similar story. I had a guy over my house for some business stuff. We ended up listening to music before he left. A couple of days later we were in a meeting and someone asked him what we had discussed and he said he really didn't remember much, all he could remember were the speakers and music. biggrin.gif
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post #17077 of 28212 Old 03-06-2014, 08:20 AM
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Country, the problem is that designing a test for llistening fatigue may not be possible. The question is two-fold. How much distortion must be present before it's detectable in a A/B switch test and how long does it take for any given level of undetectable distortion to lead to listening fatigue? The answer is probably variable depending on the individual, but we know that every speaker has increasing products of distortion as volume increases, yet we don't "hear it" consciously. But it is heard subconsciously by the brain, it's simply filtered. Tube amps have higher distortion, yet many say they sound better to them than solid state amps.

A couple of links below regarding distortion and detectability that are interesting.

http://www.silcom.com/~aludwig/EARS.htm#Distortion

http://www.silcom.com/~aludwig/Amplifier_distortion.htm

"Everest quotes research indicating that amplitude distortion has to reach a level of 3% to be audible. However this varies greatly depending on the distortion harmonic products, and on the sound source."

"My audibility threshold for clipping occurs at an output level around 5-10% of maximum output power, where roughly 1% of the digital samples are clipped."

"THD lumps together all of the harmonics, but in reality some harmonics sound a lot worse than others."

"So far I have mainly tested myself on one short music segment, the Vivaldi sample. Based on this, my detection threshold is close to a value of alpha = 0.3 for the SS case, where 1% of the samples are clipped, and I am 90% accurate in selecting the distorted file. This corresponds to an average power output equal to 9% of the maximum power output. Further testing can only result in a lower threshold. I am guessing that if I run my amps at 5% of their rated power that clipping will not be audible."


Edit: For any good A/B test, IMO, the listeners have to be trained to identify signal distortion using sound files with deliberate increasing levels of quantifiable and known distortion levels. Once trained I suspect the sensitivity of the test will rise dramatically. Files to achieve this are in my links.

I agree with your post entirely. I dont think you will hear any major differences between two amps running within their specs. However when the juice starts flowing an avr will not have the goods to push seven high power handling speakers past reference and sound good doing so while a good set of external amos will just keep chugging along.

That is the point I was trying to make.
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post #17078 of 28212 Old 03-06-2014, 08:22 AM
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What's your current setup Swolephile?

Two Yorkville U215's and seven Yorkville U15's.
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post #17079 of 28212 Old 03-06-2014, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by staaled View Post

Yesterday I had a dear friend over for a visit. We don't see each other often, so had some catching up to do on what had been going on the last 6 months.

Besides the obvious presence of the Noesis' and Captivators, I told him that I had spent al lot of time with music and movies.
More so than ever before.
After an elaborate intro on Jeff and JTRs , and some on the rest of my gear, the first track was playing and after 20 seconds or so he just nodded and said : "I understand".biggrin.gif

I understand completely cool.gif.

These speakers continue to amaze me. I've been playing with the LG FP10000q amp and was listening to Lyle Lovett's Joshua Judges Ruth CD last night with just the Triple 8LP's horizontal, run full range behind the AT screen. It's a very well recorded disk and the clarity and detail was as good as I have heard in the room. The bass and drum hits on "She's already made up her mind" were fantastic. I don't know if it was the amp or just the fact that I am missing having the system (going on two months now) but the Triple 8LP's were playing way above their weight class. They can't do the volume that the larger 12" JTR's can but within their range, they are really good. I was playing them up to -8 or -9 ref and they were just pure ... smile.gif


BTW, I think this amp talk thing is just about played out rolleyes.gif. Let's discuss expensive cables and power cords next. tongue.gif

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post #17080 of 28212 Old 03-06-2014, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post

I agree with your post entirely. I dont think you will hear any major differences between two amps running within their specs. However when the juice starts flowing an avr will not have the goods to push seven high power handling speakers past reference and sound good doing so while a good set of external amos will just keep chugging along.

That is the point I was trying to make.

You may have missed my post to you...So which Noesis did you say you had tested and what are the details on how you tested?

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post #17081 of 28212 Old 03-06-2014, 09:02 AM
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I've been playing with the LG FP10000q amp...I don't know if it was the amp or just the fact that I am missing having the system (going on two months now) but the Triple 8LP's were playing way above their weight class.
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BTW, I think this amp talk thing is just about played out rolleyes.gif. Let's discuss expensive cables and power cords next. tongue.gif

Hey, try leading by example....tongue.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #17082 of 28212 Old 03-06-2014, 09:13 AM
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For what the Sherbourne puts out I consider it receiver territory. Limited dynamics. Will get you to reference with many simpler systems. Not enough power to get multiple high power handling speakers to their full potential.

And audibly, they sound the same as a receiver to me but less clipping.

I certainly hope you aren't talking about the Sherbourn 7-350... If so, that is total hogwash. 550 watts all channels driven at 4 ohm. Close to 1,000 watts per channel in stereo mode at 4 ohm. That is no slouch, and FAR from AVR power. I would say my system is far from "Simple" and it destroys any type of content I run through it. I honestly don't think I need all the juice, but it was a nice deal so I jumped on it.

The next part, limited dynamics, I have no idea how you would quantify that.... vs. what? 2000 wpc?

The last thing, I don't know if you are talking about running high power sine waves here or what, but there is no content that i am aware of, if even out there, that is going to require peak play from every channel at the exact same time. If there is, it's certainly a very short burst of power and not sustained. The closest one might get is to be running All channel stereo or something, at which point the summing of all the speakers is going to make the system that much more efficient, and louder at lower power consumption. I know what you have in the Yorks, and they can take a load of wattage, but way less than you think they need, for HT use I promise. I obviously have plenty of power on tap as well, but any more than what I have now would be silly. Heck, I could even downsize IMO.

I am all for those that want to match power specs to their mains, fine. You know you have exactly what your speakers needs for 133dB in the Noesis, no questions. But to pair a close to 4kw amp with "receiver power" is simply ignorant.
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Hey, try leading by example....tongue.gifbiggrin.gif

I was, my propagandizing was much more subtle and showed great tact …don't you think? tongue.gifwink.gif

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post #17084 of 28212 Old 03-06-2014, 09:43 AM
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If the iNuke 3000 puts out a conservative 500 watts per channel to the four ohm 212ht, then an amp capable of putting out 2000 watts per channel would put out 6 more dB and max out the power rating on the 212ht.
The rule of thumb in pro audio is to have at least 2x the amplifier power than the RMS handling of the speaker. You can have up to 2.5x the RMS level depending on the crest factor of your content. Peavey, JBL, and others make this 2x recommendation for their speakers. This means you can easily use at least 4000 2000 watts per channel with the 212HT. The testing of the iNuke nu6000 shows it produces 2000 watts peak at 4 ohms. Its continuous power rating is around 1~1.2kW per channel at 4 ohms. You can use a lot more amplifier than the nu6000 on the 212HTs since it is rated at .5X the speaker's power handling. cool.gif

Edit: Actually, the JTR speakers are already rated at the max power handling for continuous amp output.

Besides thermal limits, there are also physical limits on drivers. For example, the Neo 8 planar transducer in my LS-6 speakers is rated at 50 watts RMS/150 watts peak. This means it can handle 3x its RMS rating for peaks. I have 6 of these per speaker for a maximum power handling of 900 watts. The 6 1/2" drivers can handle 100 watts RMS and 200 watts peak. I have 8 of these per speaker for a 1600 watt peak. Maximum RMS for my speaker is 1100 watts with peak level handling of 2500 watts per speaker! So, if I go 2x RMS I can still safely use an amp with 2200 watts per channel at 8 ohms. Hmm, I'm severely under-powered with my measly 400 watts. biggrin.gif
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How much power can my speakers handle?
You can determine this by looking at the speaker's data sheet. Look for the Nominal Impedance spec. Typically it will be 2, 4, 8 or 16 ohms. Next, look for the loudspeaker specification called Continuous Power Handling or Continuous Power Rating. It might be called IEC rating or Power capacity.

If you can prevent the power amp from clipping (by using a limiter), use a power amp that supplies 2 to 4 times the speakers continuous power rating per channel. This allows 3 to 6 dB of headroom for peaks in the audio signal. Speakers are built to handle those short-term peaks. If you cant keep the power amp from clipping (say, you have no limiter and the system is overdriven or goes into feedback) the amplifier power should equal the speakers continuous power rating. That way the speaker wont be damaged if the amp clips by overdriving its input. In this case there is no headroom for peaks, so you'll have to drive the speaker at less than its full rated power if you want to avoid distortion.

If you are mainly doing light dance music or voice, we recommend that the amplifier power be 1.6 times the Continuous Power rating per channel. If you are doing heavy metal/grunge, try 2.5 times the Continuous Power rating per channel. The amplifier power must be rated for the impedance of the loudspeaker (2, 4, 8 or 16 ohms).

Here's an example. Suppose the impedance of your speaker is 4 ohms, and its Continuous Power Handling is 100 W. If you are playing light dance music, the amplifier's 4-ohm power should be 1.6 x 100 W or 160 W continuous per channel. To handle heavy metal/grunge, the amplifier's 4-ohm power should be 2.5 x 100 W or 250 W continuous per channel.

If you use much more power, you are likely to damage the speaker by forcing the speaker cone to its limits. If you use much less power, you'll probably turn up the amp until it clips, trying to make the speaker loud enough. Clipping can damage speakers due to overheating. So stay with 1.6 to 2.5 times the speaker's continuous power rating.
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post #17085 of 28212 Old 03-06-2014, 09:49 AM
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Do u have two Noesis 212's and five single 8's or triple 8's?
LOL
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post #17086 of 28212 Old 03-06-2014, 09:57 AM
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The rule of thumb in pro audio is to have at least 2x the amplifier power than the RMS handling of the speaker. You can have up to 2.5x the RMS level depending on the crest factor of your content. Peavey, JBL, and others make this 2x recommendation for their speakers. This means you can easily use at least 4000 watts per channel with the 212HT. The testing of the iNuke nu6000 shows it produces 2000 watts peak at 4 ohms. Its continuous power rating is around 1~1.2kW per channel at 4 ohms. You can use a lot more amplifier than the nu6000 on the 212HTs since it is rated at .5X the speaker's power handling. cool.gif

Besides thermal limits, there are also physical limits on drivers. For example, the Neo 8 planar transducer in my LS-6 speakers is rated at 50 watts RMS/150 watts peak. This means it can handle 3x its RMS rating for peaks. I have 6 of these per speaker for a maximum power handling of 900 watts. The 6 1/2" drivers can handle 100 watts RMS and 200 watts peak. I have 8 of these per speaker for a 1600 watt peak. Maximum RMS for my speaker is 1100 watts with peak level handling of 2500 watts per speaker! So, if I go 2x RMS I can still safely use an amp with 2200 watts per channel at 8 ohms. Hmm, I'm severely under-powered with my measly 400 watts. biggrin.gif

I think the JTRs already list a 2x power spec since Jeff specifies program. If you will notice he specs the OS Pro for 4000W and I have not heard of a driver with a 4000W AES rating. The power spec could be understood better if someone knows what drivers are used in the 212s. Even the IPAL21 lists a 2500W AES rating.
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post #17087 of 28212 Old 03-06-2014, 09:58 AM
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I was, my propagandizing was much more subtle and showed great tact …don't you think? tongue.gifwink.gif

Yep. It reads like the thrust and parry of a seasoned politician. smile.gif
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post #17088 of 28212 Old 03-06-2014, 10:05 AM
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Yep. It reads like the thrust and parry of a seasoned politician. smile.gif

Ouch ... now that hurt ... tongue.gifbiggrin.gif

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post #17089 of 28212 Old 03-06-2014, 10:11 AM
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I think the JTRs already list a 2x power spec since Jeff specifies program.
Yes, you are right. I'll edit my post.
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Ouch ... now that hurt ... tongue.gifbiggrin.gif

Yea, in the current political environment that was probably below the belt, even in jest. biggrin.gif
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post #17091 of 28212 Old 03-06-2014, 10:22 AM
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I certainly hope you aren't talking about the Sherbourn 7-350... If so, that is total hogwash. 550 watts all channels driven at 4 ohm. Close to 1,000 watts per channel in stereo mode at 4 ohm. That is no slouch, and FAR from AVR power. I would say my system is far from "Simple" and it destroys any type of content I run through it. I honestly don't think I need all the juice, but it was a nice deal so I jumped on it.

The next part, limited dynamics, I have no idea how you would quantify that.... vs. what? 2000 wpc?

The last thing, I don't know if you are talking about running high power sine waves here or what, but there is no content that i am aware of, if even out there, that is going to require peak play from every channel at the exact same time. If there is, it's certainly a very short burst of power and not sustained. The closest one might get is to be running All channel stereo or something, at which point the summing of all the speakers is going to make the system that much more efficient, and louder at lower power consumption. I know what you have in the Yorks, and they can take a load of wattage, but way less than you think they need, for HT use I promise. I obviously have plenty of power on tap as well, but any more than what I have now would be silly. Heck, I could even downsize IMO.

I am all for those that want to match power specs to their mains, fine. You know you have exactly what your speakers needs for 133dB in the Noesis, no questions. But to pair a close to 4kw amp with "receiver power" is simply ignorant.

Im talking about all channels driven without a crossover. I could care less about two channel playback. I listen to all channel stereo often without a sub and crossover at night. And in this type of use I could not distinguish between a receiver running my speakers or the Sherbourn, nor my old Outlaw 200 x 7 amp.

Now Im not saying they are the same. I merely said I could hear no differences between them up till clipping. And my speakers lacked bass with all three without a sub when listening to music. Without a sub the crown amps, lg amps, Peavey 7500, and Inuke 6000 sound good with no need for a sub.

Now for those using high crossovers, who dont use multiple speakers for music, mainly ht guys, and using the typical mains plus surrounds concept what Im looking for is none of their concern and they probably dont need it.
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post #17092 of 28212 Old 03-06-2014, 10:49 AM
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I have a peavey 7500 as well. Perhaps I will do a little switcheroo and see if I come up with the same consensus....Just for fun

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post #17093 of 28212 Old 03-06-2014, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post

Im talking about all channels driven without a crossover. I could care less about two channel playback. I listen to all channel stereo often without a sub and crossover at night. And in this type of use I could not distinguish between a receiver running my speakers or the Sherbourn, nor my old Outlaw 200 x 7 amp.

Now Im not saying they are the same. I merely said I could hear no differences between them up till clipping. And my speakers lacked bass with all three without a sub when listening to music. Without a sub the crown amps, lg amps, Peavey 7500, and Inuke 6000 sound good with no need for a sub.

Now for those using high crossovers, who dont use multiple speakers for music, mainly ht guys, and using the typical mains plus surrounds concept what Im looking for is none of their concern and they probably dont need it.

I thought all channel stereo with music wasn't as hard on the amps as continuous sine wave testing?

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1481388/amplifier-power-output-rms-vs-peak-as-it-applies-to-home-theater-soundtracks#post_23532594

I imagine anyone using the current JTR's is crossing them over, since they are designed to be crossed to subwoofers. Is anyone else here using their system all channel stereo with speakers large? If not who are you discussing this with? Do you have anything objective to add? Any links to your extensive studies and tests, "comparing receivers, low wattage amps,power supply limited multichannel amp, and double blind listening tests including quick two min switching between receivers and low/average watt amps on a two channel system."?

Using a car analogy here is flawed as usual. It would be more like a receiver is a vette that morphs into a honda at 160mph, and a big power amp stays a vette to the max.

This isn't pro audio, you need the power that is needed for the room and desired playback levels. I do agree with Brandon that, "I am all for those that want to match power specs to their mains, fine. You know you have exactly what your speakers needs for 133dB in the Noesis, no questions."

There was a FOH shootout I found on the JTR thread a while back.

-Each person introduced their rig. Then we played the same CD track through the rig for a minute or so at approx 100DB. There was a SMAART rig there with a mic placed midway in the room and we used that for a DB meter.

-The Irving is an old movie house. The room is a 40' wide x 100' deep with a 16-20' ceiling (open rafters to the underside of a pitched roof). Floor is concrete. There is a stage at the front. A 30' x 40' flat area is in front of the stage and then the floor has a gentle slope up to the entrance area.

http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,140751.0.html

Seems to me you could get by with less power in a bit smaller space.
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post #17094 of 28212 Old 03-06-2014, 11:49 AM
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Most people do not use all channel stereo for music. Most people dont believe in using matching towers all around the room. I was merely stating these are things important to me as an answer as to if I would attend a dbt gtg at Archaeas home.

If it is the same old stuff with two channel listening and lower watt equipment then I would not be interested and I was explaining why.
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post #17095 of 28212 Old 03-06-2014, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I have a peavey 7500 as well. Perhaps I will do a little switcheroo and see if I come up with the same consensus....Just for fun

Sounds good. And I apologize if my earlier post came across as crass or rude. I do face to face audits all days so I have to run and make these posts on my phone in between appts. Im a super nice guy but my posts come across as offensive sometimes because Im always intensely rushing when I post.

What I mean to say earlier is that I personally not experience the dynamics with a receiver or multichannel in the 300 watt range like what I have experienced with say a IPR 7500 when using my speakers without a crossover, no sub, and all at the same time with music.

That is not to downtalk any receiver or the Sherbourn in any way. I know the Sherbourne is a great amp for its price. However I cant deny what I perceived to be a lack of bass with all of my setups with multichannel amps and receivers under 500 watts @ 8 ohms when running my speakers with no crossover and no sub.
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post #17096 of 28212 Old 03-06-2014, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post

Most people do not use all channel stereo for music. Most people dont believe in using matching towers all around the room. I was merely stating these are things important to me as an answer as to if I would attend a dbt gtg at Archaeas home.

If it is the same old stuff with two channel listening and lower watt equipment then I would not be interested and I was explaining why.

Well it seems like most people would not be interested in your type of gtg then. Getting all stereo rigs like you propose would be difficult as would be the setup. Double blind testing those types of rigs seems difficult. It seems very difficult and not much fun so that kind of a meet will most likely not take place.
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post #17097 of 28212 Old 03-06-2014, 12:03 PM
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How is the vertical off axis response of the 212's or 228's? Planning out my stage now and If I stack the 212's on my sub woofer the center of the horn will be at 56". Is this two high? I will have two rows of seating. The first row will probably be 12-13' back from the screen. I know best practice is ear height but that may not be possible.
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post #17098 of 28212 Old 03-06-2014, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post

Sounds good. And I apologize if my earlier post came across as crass or rude. I do face to face audits all days so I have to run and make these posts on my phone in between appts. Im a super nice guy but my posts come across as offensive sometimes because Im always intensely rushing when I post.

What I mean to say earlier is that I personally not experience the dynamics with a receiver or multichannel in the 300 watt range like what I have experienced with say a IPR 7500 when using my speakers withour a crossover, no sub, and all at the same time with music.

That is not to downtalk any receiver or the Sherbourn in any way. I know the Sherbourne is a great amp for its price. However I cant deny what I perceived to be a lack of bass with all of my setups with multichannel amps and receivers under 500 watts @ 8 ohms when running my speakers with no crossover and no sub. Now for speakers designed with a high crossover, always used with a sub, and mainly for HT, will not need what look for.

Understandable. and no problems here smile.gif It still does make me curious as I do often listen full range to my Danley's at night, and at decent levels as well. I get plenty of impact from them with the Sherbourn already and at blistering levels. The 50's and your Yorks have a similar rolloff on the low end IIRC, so I am still vexed as to what you were missing. the mere difference might very well come down to me listening stereo and you all channel stereo....which I also never do.

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post #17099 of 28212 Old 03-06-2014, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post

Most people do not use all channel stereo for music. Most people dont believe in using matching towers all around the room. I was merely stating these are things important to me as an answer as to if I would attend a dbt gtg at Archaeas home.

If it is the same old stuff with two channel listening and lower watt equipment then I would not be interested and I was explaining why.

So your entire AVRs vs Amps argument was based on 5-7 full range setup that 99.9% of ppl don't even have or care to...and you actually have never tested 5 or 7 Noesis as you said you had?...even though noesis arent even designed for full range (minus the unreleased 215rt)?
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post #17100 of 28212 Old 03-06-2014, 01:46 PM
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Asim,

He has similar sensitivity speakers in his U215 Yorkvilles, with a similar low-end roll off as the Noesis (slightly lower actually at 45hz), so that isn't too far off.

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