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post #17071 of 31063 Old 03-06-2014, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post

For what the Sherbourne puts out I consider it receiver territory. Limited dynamics. Will get you to reference with many simpler systems. Not enough power to get multiple high power handling speakers to their full potential.

And audibly, they sound the same as a receiver to me but less clipping.

I certainly hope you aren't talking about the Sherbourn 7-350... If so, that is total hogwash. 550 watts all channels driven at 4 ohm. Close to 1,000 watts per channel in stereo mode at 4 ohm. That is no slouch, and FAR from AVR power. I would say my system is far from "Simple" and it destroys any type of content I run through it. I honestly don't think I need all the juice, but it was a nice deal so I jumped on it.

The next part, limited dynamics, I have no idea how you would quantify that.... vs. what? 2000 wpc?

The last thing, I don't know if you are talking about running high power sine waves here or what, but there is no content that i am aware of, if even out there, that is going to require peak play from every channel at the exact same time. If there is, it's certainly a very short burst of power and not sustained. The closest one might get is to be running All channel stereo or something, at which point the summing of all the speakers is going to make the system that much more efficient, and louder at lower power consumption. I know what you have in the Yorks, and they can take a load of wattage, but way less than you think they need, for HT use I promise. I obviously have plenty of power on tap as well, but any more than what I have now would be silly. Heck, I could even downsize IMO.

I am all for those that want to match power specs to their mains, fine. You know you have exactly what your speakers needs for 133dB in the Noesis, no questions. But to pair a close to 4kw amp with "receiver power" is simply ignorant.
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post #17072 of 31063 Old 03-06-2014, 08:40 AM
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Hey, try leading by example....tongue.gifbiggrin.gif

I was, my propagandizing was much more subtle and showed great tact …don't you think? tongue.gifwink.gif

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post #17073 of 31063 Old 03-06-2014, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

If the iNuke 3000 puts out a conservative 500 watts per channel to the four ohm 212ht, then an amp capable of putting out 2000 watts per channel would put out 6 more dB and max out the power rating on the 212ht.
The rule of thumb in pro audio is to have at least 2x the amplifier power than the RMS handling of the speaker. You can have up to 2.5x the RMS level depending on the crest factor of your content. Peavey, JBL, and others make this 2x recommendation for their speakers. This means you can easily use at least 4000 2000 watts per channel with the 212HT. The testing of the iNuke nu6000 shows it produces 2000 watts peak at 4 ohms. Its continuous power rating is around 1~1.2kW per channel at 4 ohms. You can use a lot more amplifier than the nu6000 on the 212HTs since it is rated at .5X the speaker's power handling. cool.gif

Edit: Actually, the JTR speakers are already rated at the max power handling for continuous amp output.

Besides thermal limits, there are also physical limits on drivers. For example, the Neo 8 planar transducer in my LS-6 speakers is rated at 50 watts RMS/150 watts peak. This means it can handle 3x its RMS rating for peaks. I have 6 of these per speaker for a maximum power handling of 900 watts. The 6 1/2" drivers can handle 100 watts RMS and 200 watts peak. I have 8 of these per speaker for a 1600 watt peak. Maximum RMS for my speaker is 1100 watts with peak level handling of 2500 watts per speaker! So, if I go 2x RMS I can still safely use an amp with 2200 watts per channel at 8 ohms. Hmm, I'm severely under-powered with my measly 400 watts. biggrin.gif
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Originally Posted by Crown Audio 
How much power can my speakers handle?
You can determine this by looking at the speaker's data sheet. Look for the Nominal Impedance spec. Typically it will be 2, 4, 8 or 16 ohms. Next, look for the loudspeaker specification called Continuous Power Handling or Continuous Power Rating. It might be called IEC rating or Power capacity.

If you can prevent the power amp from clipping (by using a limiter), use a power amp that supplies 2 to 4 times the speakers continuous power rating per channel. This allows 3 to 6 dB of headroom for peaks in the audio signal. Speakers are built to handle those short-term peaks. If you cant keep the power amp from clipping (say, you have no limiter and the system is overdriven or goes into feedback) the amplifier power should equal the speakers continuous power rating. That way the speaker wont be damaged if the amp clips by overdriving its input. In this case there is no headroom for peaks, so you'll have to drive the speaker at less than its full rated power if you want to avoid distortion.

If you are mainly doing light dance music or voice, we recommend that the amplifier power be 1.6 times the Continuous Power rating per channel. If you are doing heavy metal/grunge, try 2.5 times the Continuous Power rating per channel. The amplifier power must be rated for the impedance of the loudspeaker (2, 4, 8 or 16 ohms).

Here's an example. Suppose the impedance of your speaker is 4 ohms, and its Continuous Power Handling is 100 W. If you are playing light dance music, the amplifier's 4-ohm power should be 1.6 x 100 W or 160 W continuous per channel. To handle heavy metal/grunge, the amplifier's 4-ohm power should be 2.5 x 100 W or 250 W continuous per channel.

If you use much more power, you are likely to damage the speaker by forcing the speaker cone to its limits. If you use much less power, you'll probably turn up the amp until it clips, trying to make the speaker loud enough. Clipping can damage speakers due to overheating. So stay with 1.6 to 2.5 times the speaker's continuous power rating.
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post #17074 of 31063 Old 03-06-2014, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post



Do u have two Noesis 212's and five single 8's or triple 8's?
LOL
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post #17075 of 31063 Old 03-06-2014, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

The rule of thumb in pro audio is to have at least 2x the amplifier power than the RMS handling of the speaker. You can have up to 2.5x the RMS level depending on the crest factor of your content. Peavey, JBL, and others make this 2x recommendation for their speakers. This means you can easily use at least 4000 watts per channel with the 212HT. The testing of the iNuke nu6000 shows it produces 2000 watts peak at 4 ohms. Its continuous power rating is around 1~1.2kW per channel at 4 ohms. You can use a lot more amplifier than the nu6000 on the 212HTs since it is rated at .5X the speaker's power handling. cool.gif

Besides thermal limits, there are also physical limits on drivers. For example, the Neo 8 planar transducer in my LS-6 speakers is rated at 50 watts RMS/150 watts peak. This means it can handle 3x its RMS rating for peaks. I have 6 of these per speaker for a maximum power handling of 900 watts. The 6 1/2" drivers can handle 100 watts RMS and 200 watts peak. I have 8 of these per speaker for a 1600 watt peak. Maximum RMS for my speaker is 1100 watts with peak level handling of 2500 watts per speaker! So, if I go 2x RMS I can still safely use an amp with 2200 watts per channel at 8 ohms. Hmm, I'm severely under-powered with my measly 400 watts. biggrin.gif

I think the JTRs already list a 2x power spec since Jeff specifies program. If you will notice he specs the OS Pro for 4000W and I have not heard of a driver with a 4000W AES rating. The power spec could be understood better if someone knows what drivers are used in the 212s. Even the IPAL21 lists a 2500W AES rating.
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post #17076 of 31063 Old 03-06-2014, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I was, my propagandizing was much more subtle and showed great tact …don't you think? tongue.gifwink.gif

Yep. It reads like the thrust and parry of a seasoned politician. smile.gif
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post #17077 of 31063 Old 03-06-2014, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Yep. It reads like the thrust and parry of a seasoned politician. smile.gif

Ouch ... now that hurt ... tongue.gifbiggrin.gif

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post #17078 of 31063 Old 03-06-2014, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Decadent_Spectre View Post

I think the JTRs already list a 2x power spec since Jeff specifies program.
Yes, you are right. I'll edit my post.
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post #17079 of 31063 Old 03-06-2014, 09:15 AM
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Ouch ... now that hurt ... tongue.gifbiggrin.gif

Yea, in the current political environment that was probably below the belt, even in jest. biggrin.gif
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post #17080 of 31063 Old 03-06-2014, 09:22 AM
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I certainly hope you aren't talking about the Sherbourn 7-350... If so, that is total hogwash. 550 watts all channels driven at 4 ohm. Close to 1,000 watts per channel in stereo mode at 4 ohm. That is no slouch, and FAR from AVR power. I would say my system is far from "Simple" and it destroys any type of content I run through it. I honestly don't think I need all the juice, but it was a nice deal so I jumped on it.

The next part, limited dynamics, I have no idea how you would quantify that.... vs. what? 2000 wpc?

The last thing, I don't know if you are talking about running high power sine waves here or what, but there is no content that i am aware of, if even out there, that is going to require peak play from every channel at the exact same time. If there is, it's certainly a very short burst of power and not sustained. The closest one might get is to be running All channel stereo or something, at which point the summing of all the speakers is going to make the system that much more efficient, and louder at lower power consumption. I know what you have in the Yorks, and they can take a load of wattage, but way less than you think they need, for HT use I promise. I obviously have plenty of power on tap as well, but any more than what I have now would be silly. Heck, I could even downsize IMO.

I am all for those that want to match power specs to their mains, fine. You know you have exactly what your speakers needs for 133dB in the Noesis, no questions. But to pair a close to 4kw amp with "receiver power" is simply ignorant.

Im talking about all channels driven without a crossover. I could care less about two channel playback. I listen to all channel stereo often without a sub and crossover at night. And in this type of use I could not distinguish between a receiver running my speakers or the Sherbourn, nor my old Outlaw 200 x 7 amp.

Now Im not saying they are the same. I merely said I could hear no differences between them up till clipping. And my speakers lacked bass with all three without a sub when listening to music. Without a sub the crown amps, lg amps, Peavey 7500, and Inuke 6000 sound good with no need for a sub.

Now for those using high crossovers, who dont use multiple speakers for music, mainly ht guys, and using the typical mains plus surrounds concept what Im looking for is none of their concern and they probably dont need it.

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post #17081 of 31063 Old 03-06-2014, 09:49 AM
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I have a peavey 7500 as well. Perhaps I will do a little switcheroo and see if I come up with the same consensus....Just for fun

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post #17082 of 31063 Old 03-06-2014, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post

Im talking about all channels driven without a crossover. I could care less about two channel playback. I listen to all channel stereo often without a sub and crossover at night. And in this type of use I could not distinguish between a receiver running my speakers or the Sherbourn, nor my old Outlaw 200 x 7 amp.

Now Im not saying they are the same. I merely said I could hear no differences between them up till clipping. And my speakers lacked bass with all three without a sub when listening to music. Without a sub the crown amps, lg amps, Peavey 7500, and Inuke 6000 sound good with no need for a sub.

Now for those using high crossovers, who dont use multiple speakers for music, mainly ht guys, and using the typical mains plus surrounds concept what Im looking for is none of their concern and they probably dont need it.

I thought all channel stereo with music wasn't as hard on the amps as continuous sine wave testing?

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1481388/amplifier-power-output-rms-vs-peak-as-it-applies-to-home-theater-soundtracks#post_23532594

I imagine anyone using the current JTR's is crossing them over, since they are designed to be crossed to subwoofers. Is anyone else here using their system all channel stereo with speakers large? If not who are you discussing this with? Do you have anything objective to add? Any links to your extensive studies and tests, "comparing receivers, low wattage amps,power supply limited multichannel amp, and double blind listening tests including quick two min switching between receivers and low/average watt amps on a two channel system."?

Using a car analogy here is flawed as usual. It would be more like a receiver is a vette that morphs into a honda at 160mph, and a big power amp stays a vette to the max.

This isn't pro audio, you need the power that is needed for the room and desired playback levels. I do agree with Brandon that, "I am all for those that want to match power specs to their mains, fine. You know you have exactly what your speakers needs for 133dB in the Noesis, no questions."

There was a FOH shootout I found on the JTR thread a while back.

-Each person introduced their rig. Then we played the same CD track through the rig for a minute or so at approx 100DB. There was a SMAART rig there with a mic placed midway in the room and we used that for a DB meter.

-The Irving is an old movie house. The room is a 40' wide x 100' deep with a 16-20' ceiling (open rafters to the underside of a pitched roof). Floor is concrete. There is a stage at the front. A 30' x 40' flat area is in front of the stage and then the floor has a gentle slope up to the entrance area.

http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,140751.0.html

Seems to me you could get by with less power in a bit smaller space.
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post #17083 of 31063 Old 03-06-2014, 10:49 AM
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Most people do not use all channel stereo for music. Most people dont believe in using matching towers all around the room. I was merely stating these are things important to me as an answer as to if I would attend a dbt gtg at Archaeas home.

If it is the same old stuff with two channel listening and lower watt equipment then I would not be interested and I was explaining why.

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post #17084 of 31063 Old 03-06-2014, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I have a peavey 7500 as well. Perhaps I will do a little switcheroo and see if I come up with the same consensus....Just for fun

Sounds good. And I apologize if my earlier post came across as crass or rude. I do face to face audits all days so I have to run and make these posts on my phone in between appts. Im a super nice guy but my posts come across as offensive sometimes because Im always intensely rushing when I post.

What I mean to say earlier is that I personally not experience the dynamics with a receiver or multichannel in the 300 watt range like what I have experienced with say a IPR 7500 when using my speakers without a crossover, no sub, and all at the same time with music.

That is not to downtalk any receiver or the Sherbourn in any way. I know the Sherbourne is a great amp for its price. However I cant deny what I perceived to be a lack of bass with all of my setups with multichannel amps and receivers under 500 watts @ 8 ohms when running my speakers with no crossover and no sub.

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post #17085 of 31063 Old 03-06-2014, 10:59 AM
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Most people do not use all channel stereo for music. Most people dont believe in using matching towers all around the room. I was merely stating these are things important to me as an answer as to if I would attend a dbt gtg at Archaeas home.

If it is the same old stuff with two channel listening and lower watt equipment then I would not be interested and I was explaining why.

Well it seems like most people would not be interested in your type of gtg then. Getting all stereo rigs like you propose would be difficult as would be the setup. Double blind testing those types of rigs seems difficult. It seems very difficult and not much fun so that kind of a meet will most likely not take place.
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How is the vertical off axis response of the 212's or 228's? Planning out my stage now and If I stack the 212's on my sub woofer the center of the horn will be at 56". Is this two high? I will have two rows of seating. The first row will probably be 12-13' back from the screen. I know best practice is ear height but that may not be possible.
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post #17087 of 31063 Old 03-06-2014, 11:06 AM
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Sounds good. And I apologize if my earlier post came across as crass or rude. I do face to face audits all days so I have to run and make these posts on my phone in between appts. Im a super nice guy but my posts come across as offensive sometimes because Im always intensely rushing when I post.

What I mean to say earlier is that I personally not experience the dynamics with a receiver or multichannel in the 300 watt range like what I have experienced with say a IPR 7500 when using my speakers withour a crossover, no sub, and all at the same time with music.

That is not to downtalk any receiver or the Sherbourn in any way. I know the Sherbourne is a great amp for its price. However I cant deny what I perceived to be a lack of bass with all of my setups with multichannel amps and receivers under 500 watts @ 8 ohms when running my speakers with no crossover and no sub. Now for speakers designed with a high crossover, always used with a sub, and mainly for HT, will not need what look for.

Understandable. and no problems here smile.gif It still does make me curious as I do often listen full range to my Danley's at night, and at decent levels as well. I get plenty of impact from them with the Sherbourn already and at blistering levels. The 50's and your Yorks have a similar rolloff on the low end IIRC, so I am still vexed as to what you were missing. the mere difference might very well come down to me listening stereo and you all channel stereo....which I also never do.

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post #17088 of 31063 Old 03-06-2014, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post

Most people do not use all channel stereo for music. Most people dont believe in using matching towers all around the room. I was merely stating these are things important to me as an answer as to if I would attend a dbt gtg at Archaeas home.

If it is the same old stuff with two channel listening and lower watt equipment then I would not be interested and I was explaining why.

So your entire AVRs vs Amps argument was based on 5-7 full range setup that 99.9% of ppl don't even have or care to...and you actually have never tested 5 or 7 Noesis as you said you had?...even though noesis arent even designed for full range (minus the unreleased 215rt)?
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post #17089 of 31063 Old 03-06-2014, 12:46 PM
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Asim,

He has similar sensitivity speakers in his U215 Yorkvilles, with a similar low-end roll off as the Noesis (slightly lower actually at 45hz), so that isn't too far off.

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post #17090 of 31063 Old 03-06-2014, 12:57 PM
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So your entire AVRs vs Amps argument was based on 5-7 full range setup that 99.9% of ppl don't even have or care to...and you actually have never tested 5 or 7 Noesis as you said you had?...even though noesis arent even designed for full range (minus the unreleased 215rt)?

I convinced my friend who is a pro DJ to purchase seven JTR Noesis for his new rig which we ran thorugh the gambit for a couple of weekend. My point is no avr can run seven high power handling speakers such as Jtr 212 or 215 to their potential. Now to fully understand my point you have to listen to speakers such seven ajtr 212s placed around a mid sized room as Fronts sides and rears. Im sorry but placing eights and six inch woofers as surrounds will not duplicate this experience.

But most guys in the home market consider a 212 or 215 as a ''main'' speaker then pair it to a smaller design they consider a ''surround''. However no where are these speakers labeled as such.

If you were to hear seven matching flagship speakers on a avr vs a couple of LG 10ks you would quickly see the shortcomings of an avr in a surround music or all channels driven environment.

And as beast stated my current setup is comparable, though the Noesis are better all around as they should be with the advances in new tech and higher price range.

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post #17091 of 31063 Old 03-06-2014, 01:07 PM
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post #17092 of 31063 Old 03-06-2014, 01:40 PM
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How is the vertical off axis response of the 212's or 228's? Planning out my stage now and If I stack the 212's on my sub woofer the center of the horn will be at 56". Is this two high? I will have two rows of seating. The first row will probably be 12-13' back from the screen. I know best practice is ear height but that may not be possible.

That is a good question and the only way you will know if it works for you is to try it. I found I liked the horn center right on my nose (vertically speaking smile.gif ). My 212 mains and center were on top of Orbit Shifters but I didn't have a stage so I guessing mine were a bit lower than yours would be. Angling the speakers down slightly for the front row is probably the answer but again, try it and see what you like.

Both the 212 and 228's use a 60/40 (H/V) horn. Below is the horizontal dispersion pattern of the Noesis 212.

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post #17093 of 31063 Old 03-06-2014, 01:51 PM
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Two Yorkville U215's and seven Yorkville U15's.


Wow!!!

 

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Originally Posted by Diesel 48 View Post

How is the vertical off axis response of the 212's or 228's? Planning out my stage now and If I stack the 212's on my sub woofer the center of the horn will be at 56". Is this two high? I will have two rows of seating. The first row will probably be 12-13' back from the screen. I know best practice is ear height but that may not be possible.
Diesel - not sure if this would help but I took some off axis measurements. See post #302 here : http://www.avsforum.com/t/1498786/the-savoy/300
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post #17095 of 31063 Old 03-06-2014, 02:03 PM
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Hi. Is there anyone in the Dallas/Plano area who has a home theatre setup using Noesis 228HTs that I can come and listen to? Please PM me. Thanks.
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post #17096 of 31063 Old 03-06-2014, 02:20 PM
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I really appreciate the invite and will really try to make it if I can. It would be great to meet all of you guys. It's been hard to keep up with the thread and posts because I have totally torn my theater down and am replacing the ceiling with DD+GG on hat channel and clips (its a lot of work with variable ceiling heights) I did get some good news today though, I bought the real LG10K today off ebay and ordered my third OS and piano black slant 8's for surrounds Once I finish the theater we could consider doing the A/B test here too. I should be able to drive everything quite hard because I added two more 20 amp lines too!. BTW I don't think at reference indoors I would be able to tell the difference either.


Are you good friends with the neighborhood ? eek.gif

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post #17097 of 31063 Old 03-06-2014, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

Archaea
I challenge you to a coin toss. Heads I win Tails you lose. smile.gif I know Shenanigans right? biggrin.gif

Word on the street is that Archaea has need practicing other forms of dispute resolution...

cam_holes.jpg

I bought that machine, but broke it last week. Cheap chinese junk. Only rated for 600lbs. The metal just doesn't hold up to ~400 reps at max weight every three hours. For the last few nights I've had my wife put the Dodge Ram 1500 up against me with a tow chain. She throws it in 4 low and I've been getting better at holding the tow chain taut for a few seconds longer every time. You should see the ruts in our yard. Last night my wife rolled over and said honey we are gonna need a bigger truck.

Whens our next face off. Better have the doc prefabricate you a nice cast so I'll have a chance to sign it in advance.
popalock and countryWV like this.

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post #17098 of 31063 Old 03-06-2014, 02:35 PM
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OOOOOOOOOO SNAP!!!! Literally

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Beast's DIY Master Measurement Thread
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post #17099 of 31063 Old 03-06-2014, 02:37 PM
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Lol. Archea is a big man. Gotta find a more peaceful option for conflict resolution with him.smile.gif

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post #17100 of 31063 Old 03-06-2014, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I bought that machine, but broke it last week. Cheap chinese junk. Only rated for 600lbs. The metal just doesn't hold up to ~400 reps at max weight every three hours. For the last few nights I've had my wife put the Dodge Ram 1500 up against me with a tow chain. She throws it in 4 low and I've been getting better at holding the tow chain taught for a few seconds longer every time. You should see the ruts in our yard. Last night my wife rolled over and said honey we are gonna need a bigger truck.

Whens our next face off. Better have the doc prefabricate you a nice cast so I'll have a chance to sign it in advance.



Or better yet eek.gif

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215RT , 228ht , captivator , Jtr , Jtr Noesis 212ht 212ht Lp
Gear in this thread - 215RT by PriceGrabber.com



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