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post #17191 of 26058 Old 03-10-2014, 11:03 AM
 
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Thanks for the quick response.... not sure if bi-amp makes a difference (existing speakers are bi-amped currently).
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post #17192 of 26058 Old 03-10-2014, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by richardfh View Post

Thanks for the quick response.... not sure if bi-amp makes a difference (existing speakers are bi-amped currently).
Low sensitivity speakers can benefit from BI-amping but with JTR it will not make a difference.
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post #17193 of 26058 Old 03-10-2014, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by richardfh View Post

Can the 212's (or new 210's) be bi-amped? Are they banana plug compatable?

Thanks

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Originally Posted by richardfh View Post

Thanks for the quick response.... not sure if bi-amp makes a difference (existing speakers are bi-amped currently).

It won't, and likely doesn't on your existing speakers either, unless they are very low sensitivity, or your amp is of the lower wattage variants.

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

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post #17194 of 26058 Old 03-10-2014, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by richardfh View Post

Thanks for the quick response.... not sure if bi-amp makes a difference (existing speakers are bi-amped currently).

If your existing speakers have an internal crossover, you are actually bi-wiring them, not bi-amping. There have been many discussions on this topic over the years and there is very little benifit to doing this except that to AV nerds, it looks cool. smile.gif

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post #17195 of 26058 Old 03-10-2014, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

If your existing speakers have an internal crossover, you are actually bi-wiring them, not bi-amping. There have been many discussions on this topic over the years and there is very little benifit to doing this except that to AV nerds, it looks cool. smile.gif
Actually, if we're being pedantic, "bi-wiring" and "bi-amping" are different. Moreover, bi-wiring is of even less benefit.

"Bi-wire" = remove "straps" on speaker binding posts, run two pairs of wires (so four strands total, 2 positive, 2 negative) to each of the posts on the speaker back and then tie both positive together at the positive amplifier terminal (and similarly for negative). Basically, it replaces the strap across the terminals with full length wire runs straight to the amplifier terminals. Which, IMO, is pretty much a useless waste of copper. You're better off just using a single pair wire of the correct gauge for your run length.

"Bi-amping" = (in this case a passive bi-amp) the same as bi-wire at the speaker end, but at the amplifier terminals you use a completely different amplifier for each pair. Again, pretty useless in my opinion because the passive x-over is still in the loop. But, I suppose some people like to throw esoteric gear on their tweeters and solid state stuff on their woofer section, or any number of other configurations. So...there is at least a little bit of rationale for this.

Anyway /offtopic.
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post #17196 of 26058 Old 03-10-2014, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post

Actually, if we're being pedantic, "bi-wiring" and "bi-amping" are different. Moreover, bi-wiring is of even less benefit.

"Bi-wire" = remove "straps" on speaker binding posts, run two pairs of wires (so four strands total, 2 positive, 2 negative) to each of the posts on the speaker back and then tie both positive together at the positive amplifier terminal (and similarly for negative). Basically, it replaces the strap across the terminals with full length wire runs straight to the amplifier terminals. Which, IMO, is pretty much a useless waste of copper. You're better off just using a single pair wire of the correct gauge for your run length.

"Bi-amping" = (in this case a passive bi-amp) the same as bi-wire at the speaker end, but at the amplifier terminals you use a completely different amplifier for each pair. Again, pretty useless in my opinion because the passive x-over is still in the loop. But, I suppose some people like to throw esoteric gear on their tweeters and solid state stuff on their woofer section, or any number of other configurations. So...there is at least a little bit of rationale for this.

Anyway /offtopic.

That was a bit "pedantic" ... J/K wink.gif

I recall several instances where removing the shorting straps on the outside of the speaker seemed to separate the power delivery of high-mids from the bass, but the two pairs of binding posts were actually wired together inside the box before the crossover so no net change. The wire sellers love that setup. smile.gif

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post #17197 of 26058 Old 03-10-2014, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

That was a bit "pedantic" ... J/K wink.gif

I recall several instances where removing the shorting straps on the outside of the speaker seemed to separate the power delivery of high-mids from the bass, but the two pairs of binding posts were actually wired together inside the box before the crossover so no net change. The wire sellers love that setup. smile.gif

Other than a select few, that is the case. The xover is hardwired and bi-wiring or bi-amping is completely useless in those cases.

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post #17198 of 26058 Old 03-10-2014, 06:18 PM
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Other than a select few, that is the case. The xover is hardwired and bi-wiring or bi-amping is completely useless in those cases.

Truth, most of the benefit people usually see is through adding wattage by Bi-amping, i.e. using two amp channels or AVR channels to get a little extra juice to the mains. Otherwise, it is a futile argument IMO

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post #17199 of 26058 Old 03-10-2014, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

That was a bit "pedantic" ... J/K wink.gif

I recall several instances where removing the shorting straps on the outside of the speaker seemed to separate the power delivery of high-mids from the bass, but the two pairs of binding posts were actually wired together inside the box before the crossover so no net change. The wire sellers love that setup. smile.gif
Really? I could see that being very bad for someone trying to passively bi-amp -- seems the two amplifiers would be fighting one another. It sort of be like forcing two amplifiers into a bridge mode, and not all amplifiers like this sort of thing, and I'd especially think that, say, a tube and SS amp would really hate being tied together. Magic smoke seems to be in the making under those conditions....
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Truth, most of the benefit people usually see is through adding wattage by Bi-amping, i.e. using two amp channels or AVR channels to get a little extra juice to the mains. Otherwise, it is a futile argument IMO
Very little in most cases. Consider a two-way, how much power is really being "saved" by separating out the tweeter? A few watts? Not enough to substantially help the lower range if it actually needs more power that's for sure. I suppose if you have extra channels and nothing to do with them, why not. Oh, with the exception of that fact that leaving those channels unused means less power consumed by the AVR and less heat to dissipate...so, in a space constrained area with, likely, less than ideal heat sinkage anyway....
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post #17200 of 26058 Old 03-10-2014, 07:40 PM
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Really? I could see that being very bad for someone trying to passively bi-amp -- seems the two amplifiers would be fighting one another. It sort of be like forcing two amplifiers into a bridge mode, and not all amplifiers like this sort of thing, and I'd especially think that, say, a tube and SS amp would really hate being tied together. Magic smoke seems to be in the making under those conditions....

Very anthropomorphic post ...

But in that vein, please consider it a teaching moment. Just explain to the amps the importance of getting along. No need for "fighting" or "hate" ... smile.gif

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post #17201 of 26058 Old 03-10-2014, 07:55 PM
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Very anthropomorphic post ...

But in that vein, please consider it a teaching moment. Just explain to the amps the importance of getting along. No need for "fighting" or "hate" ... smile.gif
haha -- I have a tendency to humanize my equipment. Now, the question is, are said amplifiers male or female? How does one judge? Power output? How pretty they look? Hummm.... This must be decided before developing appropriate lesson plan.
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how do i fix this gap?


my s2 grille is warped beyond belief!
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Honestly, take the grill off! Those things need to look their best! Haha biggrin.gif Otherwise, you need to weigh the grill down some with some serious pounds. The only thing I could think of is dampen the wood on the grill and lay it flat, and put something heavy and flat on top of them both for a little while.....Surprised the grill is warped like that. Could it have gotten some moisture exposure during transit?

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post #17204 of 26058 Old 03-10-2014, 09:18 PM
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how do i fix this gap?


my s2 grille is warped beyond belief!
I keep the grill off because it rattles on heavy bass scenes. Do you have to keep it on for protection?

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post #17205 of 26058 Old 03-10-2014, 09:50 PM
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I keep the grill off because it rattles on heavy bass scenes. Do you have to keep it on for protection?

my soon to be 2 year old daughter runs around jabbing everything with her fingers.. i need some custom cabinets to replace my racks too, she took one of my vacuum tubes out of my modwright oppo player.
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post #17206 of 26058 Old 03-11-2014, 02:52 AM
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my soon to be 2 year old daughter runs around jabbing everything with her fingers.. i need some custom cabinets to replace my racks too, she took one of my vacuum tubes out of my modwright oppo player.

My dad told me I destroyed these badass Yamaha speakers he had in our living room when I was about your daughters age.

I don't have any kids of my own, but I've thought a bit about how I would deal with this if I brought a little one into the world.

I think I'd take the "don't touch the stove, it's hot" approach. A quick 60Hz burp as my little guy reachs in with his prodding baby fingers might do the trick.

Nothing crazy! Just enough for him to associate a loud unpleasant sound (bark) accompanied with enough cone vibration (bite) on his fingers to scare him.

I'm sure my attempts to make my kid fear my equipment will fail miserably though...

Man, I just reread what I wrote...I'm already questioning my parenting skills.
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post #17207 of 26058 Old 03-11-2014, 06:21 AM
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whatever your intent the kid will most likely go the other way. probably attack the woofer with a toy till it is destroyed.biggrin.gif Especially if he/she has your killer instinct (I saw the arm wrestling video) smile.gif

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We never "baby proofed" our house, we just taught the kids from a very young age what they could not touch and it worked great. The only issue i ever had was a toy found inside my mbm 12 that was shoved in the port.

Now, I do have girls so that might be why they were trainable.
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post #17209 of 26058 Old 03-11-2014, 09:10 AM
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We never "baby proofed" our house, we just taught the kids from a very young age what they could not touch and it worked great. The only issue i ever had was a toy found inside my mbm 12 that was shoved in the port.

Now, I do have girls so that might be why they were trainable.

Same here. All my gear including HTPC, DAC's, amplfiers are at 2 year old height. I have 4 year old and 2 year old boys and haven't had any issues except the same as yours. I found a plastic Easter egg inside my MBM 12 and a car inside the bottom port of my LS-6 when I took them to dlbeck's for the GTG last year.
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post #17210 of 26058 Old 03-11-2014, 09:27 AM
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how do i fix this gap?

my s2 grille is warped beyond belief!

You are having some bad luck with this order. If you must use grills and they arrived warped, let Jeff know and I'm sure he will send replacements.

No to open the amplifier debate ...rolleyes.gif but I just ordered a LG fp10000q clone, It will be paired with the real LG but the clone will have the lighter lift of running the 4 surround channels. Presents an opportunity to test the clone vs real deal and both vs my W4S amp.

My main concern is fan noise as the equipment closet's equipment rack backside is open to the HT room (for cable management purposes). This opening is covered by a removable GIK acoustic panel on the HT room side and noise was never an issue with the dead silent W4S amp. But the LG's fan is LOUD! and so I've got an idea for another removable solid back panel (1/8" ply) with acoustic foam on the inside. Then I'll hang the existing 4'X2' GIK panel on top of the now enclosed cabinet back. That should provide adequate sound insulation (I hope redface.gif) .
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post #17211 of 26058 Old 03-11-2014, 09:30 AM
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You better knock on wood b/c it aint over yet. With 2 girls they may never touch your Audio equipment but I will bet their future boyfriends will. smile.gif
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Carp
You better knock on wood b/c it aint over yet. With 2 girls they may never touch your Audio equipment but I will bet their future boyfriends will. smile.gif
Chris
Haha...have girls, buy shotgun -- in this case threaten use whether they touch either your girl's or your "equipment".
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post #17213 of 26058 Old 03-11-2014, 10:48 AM
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Carp
You better knock on wood b/c it aint over yet. With 2 girls they may never touch your Audio equipment but I will bet their future boyfriends will. smile.gif
Chris

Yep. I see my friends that have sons and I think to myself that they are doing the hard work now but it will be reversed here in a few years.
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post #17214 of 26058 Old 03-11-2014, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

You are having some bad luck with this order. If you must use grills and they arrived warped, let Jeff know and I'm sure he will send replacements.

No to open the amplifier debate ...rolleyes.gif but I just ordered a LG fp10000q clone, It will be paired with the real LG but the clone will have the lighter lift of running the 4 surround channels. Presents an opportunity to test the clone vs real deal and both vs my W4S amp.

My main concern is fan noise as the equipment closet's equipment rack backside is open to the HT room (for cable management purposes). This opening is covered by a removable GIK acoustic panel on the HT room side and noise was never an issue with the dead silent W4S amp. But the LG's fan is LOUD! and so I've got an idea for another removable solid back panel (1/8" ply) with acoustic foam on the inside. Then I'll hang the existing 4'X2' GIK panel on top of the now enclosed cabinet back. That should provide adequate sound insulation (I hope redface.gif) .

Props Rob!

I don't think this will stir up any debate at this point in time. The debate is reserved for after you post your impressions.
tongue.gif

As for the fan mod.... I've done three so far. Takes like 15min on a clone. Spending what you did on the OEM, I wouldn't touch it...lol
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Props Rob!

I don't think this will stir up any debate at this point in time. The debate is reserved for after you post your impressions.
tongue.gif

As for the fan mod.... I've done three so far. Takes like 15min on a clone. Spending what you did on the OEM, I wouldn't touch it...lol

Not going to touch it (either one) . In the great American tradition, I'll treat the symptom, not the problem ... wink.gif

Actually, the clone amp will have the fan control set to come on only at higher temps. They call it their HT model. Since is is only driving the surrounds that should be fine. Pretty confident my sound isolation scheme will work so it's all good.

Regarding the amp debate, it will be pretty simple for me. Does the clone amp sound worse, the same or better to me. At it's price point, it's not a bad choice for surround duty in a dedicated HT if:

- It isn't DOA
- Doesn't crap out after a few hours, days, months of use.
- Doesn't catch fire and burn the house down

That's a reasonable bar set, don't you think? smile.gif
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That third point....Man that one is a doozy biggrin.gif

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post #17217 of 26058 Old 03-11-2014, 04:57 PM
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Not going to touch it (either one) . In the great American tradition, I'll treat the symptom, not the problem ... wink.gif

Actually, the clone amp will have the fan control set to come on only at higher temps. They call it their HT model. Since is is only driving the surrounds that should be fine. Pretty confident my sound isolation scheme will work so it's all good.

Regarding the amp debate, it will be pretty simple for me. Does the clone amp sound worse, the same or better to me. At it's price point, it's not a bad choice for surround duty in a dedicated HT if:

- It isn't DOA
- Doesn't crap out after a few hours, days, months of use.
- Doesn't catch fire and burn the house down

That's a reasonable bar set, don't you think? smile.gif

I don't think you'll hear any difference between the amps. The reason I don't own one is for the reasons of #2 and #3. There is no doubt the components in the clone are not nearly robust as those in the OEM, so long-term reliability is a concern. Nothing drives me more crazy than an equipment failure when I have a planned evening of music or movies. I'm willing to pay for increased reliability. Also, there is no way to know if all the speaker protection circuits you read about in the manual that came with your real LG even function on the clone. An argument could be made that they are unnecessary, but I like them biggrin.gif. And then the big one for me. This is a high powered 30 amp device we're talking about here. Personally, I want assurance that it has been built to a safe standard. "Made in China" is far from a UL listing. wink.gif Now, I have not heard of any fires from these amps, but that doesn't mean I won't in the future or that I simply I haven't read about it. Not my house, that's for sure.

Ok, fire away...biggrin.gif
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post #17218 of 26058 Old 03-11-2014, 05:02 PM
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But the LG's fan is LOUD!

Ha! Told you. biggrin.gif

Now you know why it's in my garage, lol
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I don't think you'll hear any difference between the amps. The reason I don't own one is for the reasons of #2 and #3. There is no doubt the components in the clone are not nearly robust as those in the OEM, so long-term reliability is a concern. Nothing drives me more crazy than an equipment failure when I have a planned evening of music or movies. I'm willing to pay for increased reliability. Also, there is no way to know if all the speaker protection circuits you read about in the manual that came with your real LG even function on the clone. An argument could be made that they are unnecessary, but I like them biggrin.gif. And then the big one for me. This is a high powered 30 amp device we're talking about here. Personally, I want assurance that it has been built to a safe standard. "Made in China" is far from a UL listing. wink.gif Now, I have not heard of any fires from these amps, but that doesn't mean I won't in the future or that I simply I haven't read about it. Not my house, that's for sure.

Ok, fire away...biggrin.gif

As usual, very well reasoned doc. Having the real deal to power the LCR 215RT's I felt the risk/reward equation on the clone for the surrounds was acceptable. If it blows (and doesn't take me and the house with it tongue.gif) it might actually make a very nice addition to the system. It certianly shouldn't have any problems powering the surrounds to ref or above smile.gif.

HToM

"Well, la di fricken da."!
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post #17220 of 26058 Old 03-11-2014, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Ha! Told you. biggrin.gif

Now you know why it's in my garage, lol

Yeah, when it starts up it's kinda scary ...

But then the LG settles into a nice little computer fan mode that I suppose alone could live with. I can't wait to put the SPL meter in the equipment closet with the LG, Clone, HTPC and the Rane all singing away. eek.gif Seriously, the fan noise from those amps the HTPC and the Rane in a quiet HT room would be intolerable. The only way these work for me is in a separate HT equipment closet (or garage wink.gif)

HToM

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