Official JTR speaker thread - Page 598 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #17911 of 31063 Old 04-03-2014, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

Sorry if this is old news but I hadn't seen it posted here yet. From the JTR site:

The Noesis 215RT:
95db/1w (2v)
up to 2000 watts of amplification (program)
18hz-24khz, +/-3db
350hz/6400hz crossover points
215lbs
Matte Black finish: Retail $5299, Internet $3499
Automotive finish: Retail $5999, Internet $3999
That's getting into Danley price ranges. I hope the next gathering has the Noesis 215 go against some Danley SH50's or SH60's.
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post #17912 of 31063 Old 04-03-2014, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Vital View Post

That's getting into Danley price ranges. I hope the next gathering has the Noesis 215 go against some Danley SH50's or SH60's.
we can probably arrange that biggrin.gif
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post #17913 of 31063 Old 04-03-2014, 10:08 PM
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Bought materials today to build Triple 12 speaker stands, with wheels cause there such a biatch to move mad.gif anti vibration pads, 16mm melamine and flat black, oooohh mean loooking. Will post pics.


I am going to be honest, I was not impressed when I picked up the Triple 12's and auditioned them at the sellers house before taking them. They can play loud but the midrange was harsh and tweeter was just screaming at me. BUT I heard the potential and dismissed initial thoughts because:

They were jammed up against a corner
There was no room treatment
Audyssey had not been run or used
Basically no calibration whats so ever

There were a few moments of wow, but can't judge yet, need to properly set these beasts up.
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post #17914 of 31063 Old 04-03-2014, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by j2037 View Post

Bought materials today to build Triple 12 speaker stands, with wheels cause there such a biatch to move mad.gif anti vibration pads, 16mm melamine and flat black, oooohh mean loooking. Will post pics.


I am going to be honest, I was not impressed when I picked up the Triple 12's and auditioned them at the sellers house before taking them. They can play loud but the midrange was harsh and tweeter was just screaming at me. BUT I heard the potential and dismissed initial thoughts because:

They were jammed up against a corner
There was no room treatment
Audyssey had not been run or used
Basically no calibration whats so ever

There were a few moments of wow, but can't judge yet, need to properly set these beasts up.

I could see that. I have watched a movie in a room fully treated by GIK acoustics with JTR speakers. It sounded amazing. Actually the number one quality was non harshness of the clean clinical sound. The voices were so clear and full you literally think the person is standing in front of you. That was a quintuple CC with the newest compression driver upgrade. Not sure which one but very similar i'm sure to the T 12.

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post #17915 of 31063 Old 04-03-2014, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

100% agreed. Audyssey and I are not the best of friends, and I have given it plenty of very fair chances.

look what it did to my post dsp pre Audyssey cal...




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post #17916 of 31063 Old 04-03-2014, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

Sorry if this is old news but I hadn't seen it posted here yet. From the JTR site:

The Noesis 215RT:
95db/1w (2v)
up to 2000 watts of amplification (program)
18hz-24khz, +/-3db
350hz/6400hz crossover points
215lbs
Matte Black finish: Retail $5299, Internet $3499
Automotive finish: Retail $5999, Internet $3999

That is an amazing price for what may just be the definitive full range loudspeaker available today. Are there any other speakers that can compete with its dynamics and frequency extension?

I guess there are the Funk Audio 8.7P speakers that retail for $26,875/pair.
8-7p-loudspeakers#
For that price, I could surround myself with with SEVEN 215RTs and still have $2382 left over to pay for shipping and amps. Very different design and goals, though.

The Seaton Cat12Cs can also dig really deep, according to witnessed accounts from a GTG last year where Mark let them loose by activating a full range mode in the DSP.

I'm really waiting for Jeff to unveil the 210RT.

David Budo
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post #17917 of 31063 Old 04-04-2014, 04:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

Sorry if this is old news but I hadn't seen it posted here yet. From the JTR site:

The Noesis 215RT:
95db/1w (2v)
up to 2000 watts of amplification (program)
18hz-24khz, +/-3db
350hz/6400hz crossover points
215lbs
Matte Black finish: Retail $5299, Internet $3499
Automotive finish: Retail $5999, Internet $3999

Where is that on the jtr site? I can't find it... Thanks.
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post #17918 of 31063 Old 04-04-2014, 04:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post





The Seaton Cat12Cs can also dig really deep, according to witnessed accounts from a GTG last year where Mark let them loose by activating a full range mode in the DSP.
I can attest as I was there and I was shocked at the bass they were sending. Not only that, the power of the bass and how far back in the room it could be felt. It is like they had built in submersives.
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post #17919 of 31063 Old 04-04-2014, 04:54 AM
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Originally Posted by AlexBPM View Post

Wait, is there another GTG that I'm unaware of? If 212's or 215's will be present, I'm flying in . And buying the pizza. PM me the info!
I think you are hearing about Axpona in Chicago at the end of April. It is being said Jeff is bringing the new 215's.. Is this true Jeff?
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post #17920 of 31063 Old 04-04-2014, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunner969 View Post

Where is that on the jtr site? I can't find it... Thanks.

Its not on his site per se but on the JTR forum that links from his site. Here is the URL (last post by Jeff at the bottom of the thread):

http://jtrspeakers.websitetoolbox.com/post/jtr-noesis-floor-standing-full-range-speakers-6631501?trail=30
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post #17921 of 31063 Old 04-04-2014, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post

we can probably arrange that biggrin.gif

Haha, yup biggrin.gif Does the 212 LP vs. the SH50 count? In that case, it will already be handled by tomorrow!

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)


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post #17922 of 31063 Old 04-04-2014, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

look what it did to my post dsp pre Audyssey cal...





(European models do not accept banana plugs.)


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post #17923 of 31063 Old 04-04-2014, 07:09 AM
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What is the advantage of a much lower xo of the HF element (horn loading / compression driver)?
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post #17924 of 31063 Old 04-04-2014, 07:19 AM
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Maintains better directivity further down the FR band, prevents crossing over in the crucial 1-2khz area where the human ear is the most sensitive, prevents the woofers from having to play to high where they start beaming, improves phase issues inherent of passive crossover designs, etc.....haha

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post #17925 of 31063 Old 04-04-2014, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post

That is an amazing price for what may just be the definitive full range loudspeaker available today. Are there any other speakers that can compete with its dynamics and frequency extension?

I guess there are the Funk Audio 8.7P speakers that retail for $26,875/pair.
8-7p-loudspeakers#
For that price, I could surround myself with with SEVEN 215RTs and still have $2382 left over to pay for shipping and amps. Very different design and goals, though.

The Seaton Cat12Cs can also dig really deep, according to witnessed accounts from a GTG last year where Mark let them loose by activating a full range mode in the DSP.

I'm really waiting for Jeff to unveil the 210RT.


The 210RT will be an interesting intermediate step but still requires subwoofer support for Home Theater. If it does a good job with 2 channel music by itself, then it's smaller form factor and 38hz extension might be a good option for some.

I have had trouble finding a speaker that is comparable to the 215RT. It is an old concept done in a different way (eg passive with internal crossover and one set of binding posts). For most music, just running them full range range with any amp/receiver is fine but if you want to play a source with an LFE channel you need to mix the LFE into the main speaker channels. There are several ways to do that but it is an additional step so they aren't quite plug and play.

This is in a sense self policing as the 215RT isn't for the average AVR based HT IMHO. Jeff has asked if any AVR can redirect the LFE content to the main speakers on his forum and as far as I can tell, no current model AVR has that capability. If anyone knows of one please do tell ... smile.gif

I really miss seeing them (love the look of the 215's) and may have to reconsider my screen choice ... Calling Seymour AV today to see what can be done. smile.gif
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post #17926 of 31063 Old 04-04-2014, 07:34 AM
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jdsmoothie got on the 8801 thread and mentioned that the marantz can downmix the LFE channel, and my guess is if it can, the current Denon models would be able to as well, but that is pure speculation.

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)


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post #17927 of 31063 Old 04-04-2014, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Haha, yup biggrin.gif Does the 212 LP vs. the SH50 count? In that case, it will already be handled by tomorrow!
Sweet, looking forward to hearing peoples reviews!
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post #17928 of 31063 Old 04-04-2014, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Vital View Post

Sweet, looking forward to hearing peoples reviews!

I compared the 212 HT to Brandon's Danley SH 50 for a few days in my room, it was a lot of fun!! smile.gif


http://www.avsforum.com/t/1512849/january-18th-loudspeaker-gtg-results-thread/330#post_24270128
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post #17929 of 31063 Old 04-04-2014, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post

That is an amazing price for what may just be the definitive full range loudspeaker available today. Are there any other speakers that can compete with its dynamics and frequency extension?

I guess there are the Funk Audio 8.7P speakers that retail for $26,875/pair.
8-7p-loudspeakers#
For that price, I could surround myself with with SEVEN 215RTs and still have $2382 left over to pay for shipping and amps. Very different design and goals, though.

The Seaton Cat12Cs can also dig really deep, according to witnessed accounts from a GTG last year where Mark let them loose by activating a full range mode in the DSP.

I'm really waiting for Jeff to unveil the 210RT.


The 210RT will be an interesting intermediate step but still requires subwoofer support for Home Theater. If it does a good job with 2 channel music by itself, then it's smaller form factor and 38hz extension might be a good option for some.

I have had trouble finding a speaker that is comparable to the 215RT. It is an old concept done in a different way (eg passive with internal crossover and one set of binding posts). For most music, just running them full range range with any amp/receiver is fine but if you want to play a source with an LFE channel you need to mix the LFE into the main speaker channels. There are several ways to do that but it is an additional step so they aren't quite plug and play.

This is in a sense self policing as the 215RT isn't for the average AVR based HT IMHO. Jeff has asked if any AVR can redirect the LFE content to the main speakers on his forum and as far as I can tell, no current model AVR has that capability. If anyone knows of one please do tell ... smile.gif

I really miss seeing them (love the look of the 215's) and may have to reconsider my screen choice ... Calling Seymour AV today to see what can be done. smile.gif

My understanding is that setting the sub to no and mains to large result in redirecting the LFE channel to the mains on Denon and Marantz. There is no way to redirect LFE to center though.
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post #17930 of 31063 Old 04-04-2014, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by logicators View Post

My understanding is that setting the sub to no and mains to large result in redirecting the LFE channel to the mains on Denon and Marantz. There is no way to redirect LFE to center though.
^^This sounds correct ^so I just called Denon and was told that setting the subs to No kills the LFE channel and basically the LFE cannot be redirected into the mains through their avrs. The Best that can be accomplished is setting all speakers to large. If a system is 7.0 with no subs then there will be no LFE without a sub.
Not saying this is correct but it was what I was told on this subject by Denon technical support. smile.gif
If an outside processor does the trick that is probably the best route to go.
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post #17931 of 31063 Old 04-04-2014, 10:27 AM
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What would you all do in my scenario?

I have sold my Paradigm Studios and my JTR Triple 8HT-LP fronts (LCR) will likely be here in the next 2 weeks. I still have my pair of Paradigm ADP-590's for surrounds. Would you sell these and buy JBL 8320's to replace, or keep the ADP-590's to pair with the JTR fronts? I would love to purchase Slanted 8's and be done with it, but I do not have the budget to do so. I also don't plan to purchase Slanted 8's in the future, unless I find a good deal on used ones some day, but I don't want to count on that as an option.

I understand that I would net ahead by selling the ADP-590's and buying a pair of 8320's by a few hundred, but I would like to take the cost difference out in this comparison.

Thoughts?
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post #17932 of 31063 Old 04-04-2014, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by ndskurfer View Post

What would you all do in my scenario?

I have sold my Paradigm Studios and my JTR Triple 8HT-LP fronts (LCR) will likely be here in the next 2 weeks. I still have my pair of Paradigm ADP-590's for surrounds. Would you sell these and buy JBL 8320's to replace, or keep the ADP-590's to pair with the JTR fronts? I would love to purchase Slanted 8's and be done with it, but I do not have the budget to do so. I also don't plan to purchase Slanted 8's in the future, unless I find a good deal on used ones some day, but I don't want to count on that as an option.

I understand that I would net ahead by selling the ADP-590's and buying a pair of 8320's by a few hundred, but I would like to take the cost difference out in this comparison.

Thoughts?

I had paradigm studio 40's and 20's for surrounds for about 2 months when I first got my JTR T12's..... I would 100% get the JBL's. There are also DIY versions like the Volt from DIYsound group that would be a good option. The paradigms just could keep up at all with the JTR's and the Tone of the speakers is very different, very distracting if you ever listen to multichannel music.

that not saying the paradigms are not good speakers because they are excellent, they just don't sound anything like the JTR's do. thats my 2c.
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post #17933 of 31063 Old 04-04-2014, 10:54 AM
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^^This sounds correct ^so I just called Denon and was told that setting the subs to No kills the LFE channel and basically the LFE cannot be redirected into the mains through their avrs. The Best that can be accomplished is setting all speakers to large. If a system is 7.0 with no subs then there will be no LFE without a sub.
Not saying this is correct but it was what I was told on this subject by Denon technical support. smile.gif
If an outside processor does the trick that is probably the best route to go.
Chris

Hmm. That's easy enough to test with REW. I will try over the weekend and post my findings.
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post #17934 of 31063 Old 04-04-2014, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

The 210RT will be an interesting intermediate step but still requires subwoofer support for Home Theater. If it does a good job with 2 channel music by itself, then it's smaller form factor and 38hz extension might be a good option for some.

I have had trouble finding a speaker that is comparable to the 215RT. It is an old concept done in a different way (eg passive with internal crossover and one set of binding posts). For most music, just running them full range range with any amp/receiver is fine but if you want to play a source with an LFE channel you need to mix the LFE into the main speaker channels. There are several ways to do that but it is an additional step so they aren't quite plug and play.

This is in a sense self policing as the 215RT isn't for the average AVR based HT IMHO. Jeff has asked if any AVR can redirect the LFE content to the main speakers on his forum and as far as I can tell, no current model AVR has that capability. If anyone knows of one please do tell ... smile.gif

I really miss seeing them (love the look of the 215's) and may have to reconsider my screen choice ... Calling Seymour AV today to see what can be done. smile.gif

I have not setup an account on the JTR forums yet so posting here. I am leaning towards getting the 210s once they come out, which is why I have been carefully monitoring the thread.

As for receivers my understanding is:

Almost all receivers should send the LFE to the mains if the subwoofer is set to none. If you still want a subwoofer you should be able to run the L+R output in parallel to the subs high level inputs. Not sure exactly how that might affect the impedance seen by the receiver, but given the sub has its own amplifier, I am guessing it should be negligible. If you are not using the receiver as an amplifier it should not be an issue whatsoever, just split the line level output of the fronts to the subwoofer and use its crossover.
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post #17935 of 31063 Old 04-04-2014, 01:03 PM
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Almost all receivers should send the LFE to the mains if the subwoofer is set to none.
Most don't for a variety of reasons. Here is a recent discussion: Mixing LFE into LCR mains channels.

Most receivers use an opamp in the subwoofer output to increase the level by 10 dB. Redirected bass from other channels is reduced by 10 dB before being mixed with the LFE channel to preserve energy properly. If the receiver is going to mix the LFE with other channels, it has to first attenuate all channels by 10 dB. Then it has to know how many channels it is mixing the LFE to. The formula for dividing audio among other channels is 1/(√(channel count). So for routing the LFE to the three main channels you have 1/(√3) or .5774. So you multiply the LFE signal by .5774 and add to the three main channels. However, what if the 3 main channels aren't identical? Then the levels will be wrong. So for the extremely small percentage that might want this routing, for the variables necessary, for the loss of SNR, for the inability to still calibrate to reference level with most speakers, and for the potential damage to most speakers, I doubt that very many receivers implement LFE routing.

Routing the LFE to 3 channels is probably a bad example since it doesn't require attenuating the other channels by 10 dB or calculating the LFE levels. Sending the LFE to three coherent sources increases the volume level 9.54 dB. All you need to do is attenuate the other channels by .5 dB (thereby raising the LFE by .5 dB) and mixing it to the 3 main speakers. This is how I did it with RMK!'s three 215RT speakers.
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post #17936 of 31063 Old 04-04-2014, 01:45 PM
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Most don't for a variety of reasons. Here is a recent discussion: Mixing LFE into LCR mains channels.

Most receivers use an opamp in the subwoofer output to increase the level by 10 dB. Redirected bass from other channels is reduced by 10 dB before being mixed with the LFE channel to preserve energy properly. If the receiver is going to mix the LFE with other channels, it has to first attenuate all channels by 10 dB. Then it has to know how many channels it is mixing the LFE to. The formula for dividing audio among other channels is 1/(√(channel count). So for routing the LFE to the three main channels you have 1/(√3) or .5774. So you multiply the LFE signal by .5774 and add to the three main channels. However, what if the 3 main channels aren't identical? Then the levels will be wrong. So for the extremely small percentage that might want this routing, for the variables necessary, for the loss of SNR, for the inability to still calibrate to reference level with most speakers, and for the potential damage to most speakers, I doubt that very many receivers implement LFE routing.

Routing the LFE to 3 channels is probably a bad example since it doesn't require attenuating the other channels by 10 dB or calculating the LFE levels. Sending the LFE to three coherent sources increases the volume level 9.54 dB. All you need to do is attenuate the other channels by .5 dB (thereby raising the LFE by .5 dB) and mixing it to the 3 main speakers. This is how I did it with RMK!'s three 215RT speakers.

Interesting. I agree that sending to the 3 channels including center channel seems unlikely and having never tested it I could not say for certain, but it seems strange that the manufacturers would call out this functionality in the manual if it did not exist.

For example in the Yamaha manual it states (for subwoofer = none): Select this option when no subwoofer is connected to SUBWOOFER 1 or SUBWOOFER 2 jack. The front speakers will produce LFE (low-frequency-effect) channel audio and low-frequency components from other channels when both "Subwoofer 1" and "Subwoofer 2" are set to "None". (bold is my emphasis).

Looking at the thread you included, they seem to imply that the LFE signal is actually encoded in the main channels (sometimes all) as well as any sub channel. What ecrabb suggests about summing also makes sense. In the manual for my Onkyo receiver, having the processor grab the LFE signal from all the channels and send it to the subwoofer is called Double Bass. Perhaps an indication of such summing. It also shows that the Fronts automatically are set to Large (full range) if the subwoofer is turned off. This would make them responsible for the LFE, though perhaps not the low frequencies for the surround channels like the Yamaha states.

I wonder if there is any way to test this- maybe a software encoder to create an audio file with signals only on the .1 channel? Then play with the receiver setting and see what happens.
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post #17937 of 31063 Old 04-04-2014, 01:53 PM
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Some receivers do route the LFE to the front L/R. It looks like the Yamaha might be one. You can download the audio test DVD in the DIY subforum or use a test Blu-ray like Disney's World of Wonder calibration disc.
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Some receivers do route the LFE to the front L/R. It looks like the Yamaha might be one. You can download the audio test DVD in the DIY subforum or use a test Blu-ray like Disney's World of Wonder calibration disc.

I will download and give it a try with some of my budget receivers and see what happens. More research is necessary to see if this also could work for RMKs scenario where the center channel also needs the LFE. Does the receiver send the LFE to all channels marked Large/Full range? The Yamaha manual is unclear since Front speakers could imply Center as well as L/R. If this not the case then a custom solution with external hardware would be necessary.
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I will download and give it a try with some of my budget receivers and see what happens. More research is necessary to see if this also could work for RMKs scenario where the center channel also needs the LFE. Does the receiver send the LFE to all channels marked Large/Full range? The Yamaha manual is unclear since Front speakers could imply Center as well as L/R. If this not the case then a custom solution with external hardware would be necessary.

I know Jeff will be interested in the results of your tests.

One issue is this mixing of the LFE effectively eliminates any bass management in the AVR as you no longer have a subwoofer channel per say to ping. We discovered a related issue when we used the Rane to mix the 2 LFE channels into the LCR's. When we tried to run Audyssey it gave us an error on the subwoofer channel pings because the sub output was now mixed with the other frequencies. Audyssey detected higher frequencies than it expected on the LFE outputs so error'd out. The solution was to put a low pass on the LFE output to the LCR's. Then Audyssey ran fine but the net results sucked the life right out of the system. tongue.gif

So I have gone from being an Audyssey believer to not wanting/needing it at all. YMMV smile.gif

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I know Jeff will be interested in the results of your tests.

One issue is this mixing of the LFE effectively eliminates any bass management in the AVR as you no longer have a subwoofer channel per say to ping. We discovered a related issue when we used the Rane to mix the 2 LFE channels into the LCR's. When we tried to run Audyssey it gave us an error on the subwoofer channel pings because the sub output was now mixed with the other frequencies. Audyssey detected higher frequencies than it expected on the LFE outputs so error'ed out. The solution was to put a low pass on the LFE output to the LCR's. Then Audyssey ran fine but the net results sucked the life right out of the system. tongue.gif

So I have gone from being an Audyssey believer to not wanting/needing it at all. YMMV smile.gif

Well in the case of setting the Fronts to Large and Sub to none, it is the actual bass management doing all the work/mixing so Audyssey should be aware and do the right thing smile.gif. I have had similar issues with Audyssey in the past. I have two in-wall speakers above my L/R in the theater. My receiver is a 7.1 so it has no notion of height channels, so I simply sent the L/R stereo pre-out to another amp and powered them that way. Audyssey did not like having two very different sets of speakers (1 tower, 1 in-wall) both outputting the same L/R signal from the same general location.

I did a little more research and this seems relatively authoritative: http://www.soundandvision.com/content/bass-management-and-lfe-channel

The author, the person who coined the term bass management, states that the Dolby spec which all receivers need to meet is:



This makes it clear that the LFE will be sent to the "Large" speakers or at least the Front "Large". It does not answer if the LFE will also be sent to rear "Large" speakers nor if the low frequency signals of speakers marked "Small" will be sent as part of the LFE. <-edit--> Actually the image clearly shows the signals for the rears being sent to the LFE and on to the L/R. </---edit--->

Note: This means just about any receiver should work just fine to handle LFE decoding and bass management for a setup of 215 speakers WITHOUT a subwoofer. How the receiver handles bass management and routes the LFE if the subwoofer channel is available is completely different.
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