Official JTR speaker thread - Page 616 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 04-21-2014, 01:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

90 dB on pink noise? So you set the S2 at 15 dB over reference? eek.gif .
Isn't sub channel +10dB of mains? This makes 85dB when test tone is played.
90dB is +5dB over reference.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old 04-21-2014, 01:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Well its all official. I will be running a Denon 4520ci to run my Triple 8 front soundstage. Aslo plan on two Volt 10 speakers for surrounds unless someone else has a better idea for surrounds at that comparable price. I can go up from the Denovo 150 in them to a speaker Eric has for 30 more with the Denovo 205 i think it is

Awesome AVR. I am almost certain you'll be 100% satisfied.

BTW: I was going to get some V-10s from eric as well but not sure if he's willing to ship overseas. He indicated he would, but when i actually tried to order, gave him a list of the speakers i want, no more replies from him. Sometimes it sucks not being in the US... you guys are real lucky... Eric is a fantastic guy, just wish he's also able to service the international market....

I am totally interested in hearing your impression of the V-10s.. please post your review or pm me..

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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

As Tom's quote has been entered, the Synergy design has multiple purposes, and one of them is to remove distortion with the "port" holes and the driver's being recessed into the box. I can assure you one thing, Distortion from either the 212 OR the 50's is certainly NOT the problem.
Yessir! The Danley's as GD is finding take a little more finagling, but once done, they are truly special.

You could be totally right...

Remember, I was merely speculating about distortion after hearing from Goodoc's reviews of them.. he said the Danleys gives him brain fatigue and the 212s did not..

So, as far as i know, given the following premises:

A - One set of speaker gives fatigue whereas the other doesn't.
B- Distortion causes brain fatigue (I know not of any other variables that causes that in the AB comparison here).

So, logically speaking, one of the speakers MUST be distorting...

Again, it's all speculation because Goodoc's report may be inaccurate, or, there are other unknown variables involved...

So, these are all just speculative.. I am not making any strong stance on any conclusion... Feel free to think of other variables...
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Old 04-21-2014, 01:51 AM
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I just wanted to put this out there.. I am pretty sure it's accurate but it may offend some people. However, it may help others when comparing reviews.

I am starting to feel (basically become very convinced) that a lot of confusion between a lot of arguments over speakers and how they sound comes from 4 variables:

1. Age (No one has discussed this, but i think this is the biggest factor, especially if we're talking about someone who's in their teens vs someone in their 50s or 60s). It is a scientific fact that as we age, our sensitivity to higher frequencies diminishes.
2. Everyone has a slight difference in perception of what they hear both caused by actual 'physical' and also 'mental'. Physical being how their ears processes sound, like how sensitive they are, mental being 'subjective preferences' which could be cultural, upbringing, etc, etc.
3. Being a FANBOY. (For instance, Superman is the BEST superhero EVER.. and don't anyone dare say otherwise, and Batman sucks...)
4. Being politically correct, or feel like they can't say certain things on certain threads on forums...

I believe Number 1 and 4, are the main culprits...

As for number 1. Here are some examples. A couple of teens i demoed the 212s to find certain DTS recording intolerably piercing. (like the mosquito noise test). And this from songs I personally do not feel ANY brightness at all... goes to show how much difference 20 years can make in terms of our hearing capability. To be fair I believe that the piercing is most likely due to the dts recording rather than the 212s which are merely playing what u throw at them. Because this only happens to some dts live concerts and not cds.

And my brother, for instance, working in loud nightclubs all his life, may have cause more damage to his hearing. He loved my 212s, but then he also loved his brand new $100 set of PA speakers... he can't tell them apart. Trust me. They r worlds apart.
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Old 04-21-2014, 04:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Remember, I was merely speculating about distortion after hearing from Goodoc's reviews of them.. he said the Danleys gives him brain fatigue and the 212s did not..

CG, I never said the Danley's give me brain fatigue. I suggested that may be the reason carp had an issue with the Danley 50's and that I was watching out for that myself. And by brain fatigue I meant boredom, not distortion fatigue.

I'm happy to report that I have not experienced any listening fatigue with the Danley's wink.gifsmile.gif
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Old 04-21-2014, 05:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obxdiver View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

90 dB on pink noise? So you set the S2 at 15 dB over reference? eek.gif .

Good heavens man, that is so overkill it's ridiculous. It's a heck of a sub, I know(I have two of them), but there are limits! biggrin.gif You do know you were asking a single S2 to hit 130 dB? Not happening

Wouldn't surprise me if you blew the driver at those levels. Hopefully I'm not understanding your settings correctly...
Thanks for the spanking...
I knew 90 was probably too hot., but I rarely listen at reference levels. Today I did.
So, what should I set the sub level at during the pink noise cal? 75 or 85? I though most folks set the sub 10dB above the mains?

It depends on the amplitude of your test signal. For SMPTE/Dolby/THX "reference" calibration, the levels should be set such that a -20dBFS pink noise test signal reads 85dBC at the LP. If it's a -30dBFS signal, levels should be set such that it reads 75dBC at the LP. This applies to all speakers and sub(s).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

90 dB on pink noise? So you set the S2 at 15 dB over reference? eek.gif .
Isn't sub channel +10dB of mains? This makes 85dB when test tone is played.
90dB is +5dB over reference.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

No, the subwoofer output is calibrated at the same level as speakers. The LFE channel (ie. not the sub) has a fixed +10dB boost over the satellite (or main) channel signal that is applied electrically by the processor (see figure). This 10dB boost enables the single LFE channel's output to match or "keep up" with the output of up to 7 main channels.

(Note: I reckon the blue line above is actually mis-labeled. It should be "Redirected bass Level" or similar. The "Subwoofer Level" is the sum of redirected bass from the main channels and the LFE channel.)
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Old 04-21-2014, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

I just wanted to put this out there.. I am pretty sure it's accurate but it may offend some people. However, it may help others when comparing reviews.

I am starting to feel (basically become very convinced) that a lot of confusion between a lot of arguments over speakers and how they sound comes from 4 variables:

1. Age (No one has discussed this, but i think this is the biggest factor, especially if we're talking about someone who's in their teens vs someone in their 50s or 60s). It is a scientific fact that as we age, our sensitivity to higher frequencies diminishes.
2. Everyone has a slight difference in perception of what they hear both caused by actual 'physical' and also 'mental'. Physical being how their ears processes sound, like how sensitive they are, mental being 'subjective preferences' which could be cultural, upbringing, etc, etc.
3. Being a FANBOY. (For instance, Superman is the BEST superhero EVER.. and don't anyone dare say otherwise, and Batman sucks...)
4. Being politically correct, or feel like they can't say certain things on certain threads on forums...
I own #3

I am a JTR Fanboy who knows Superman is the Best Superhero Ever and since Ben Affleck is the new Batman I now think Batman Sucks. smile.gif

Dammit Ben Affleck. biggrin.gif

J/K CG wink.gif
Chris

Chris
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Old 04-21-2014, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

CG, I never said the Danley's give me brain fatigue. I suggested that may be the reason carp had an issue with the Danley 50's and that I was watching out for that myself. And by brain fatigue I meant boredom, not distortion fatigue.

I'm happy to report that I have not experienced any listening fatigue with the Danley's wink.gifsmile.gif

Ah ok.. then.. so, no distortion... smile.gif
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Old 04-21-2014, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by countryWV View Post


I own #3

I am a JTR Fanboy who knows Superman is the Best Superhero Ever and since Ben Affleck is the new Batman I now think Batman Sucks. smile.gif

Dammit Ben Affleck. biggrin.gif

J/K CG wink.gif
Chris

Superman IS the BEST.. and anyone who recognizes that is also super SMART.. hahaha...
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Old 04-21-2014, 07:14 AM
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Any western Canadian members looking for some t12's check the classifieds, I have mine posted. The guy that committed to them prior to me ordering the 212's appears to have flaked out on me.

(3) JTR Noesis 212HT (LCR)
(2) JTR Single 8 (wides)
(2) JTR Slanted 8 (sides)
(2) DIY Eminence 10" coax (rear Surrounds)
(2) JTR Orbit Shifters
(2) Mach5 UXL-18's sealed
(2) Soundsplinter 15's sealed
Speakers powered by 6 crown xls 1500's
UXL's powered by Peavey IPR-7500

My theater:
http://www.avs...
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Old 04-21-2014, 07:34 AM
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Cool Geek the Volt 10's have the Denovo 150 driver while the Alchemy 8's have the Denovo 205 and a horn for 30 bucks more. Worth it you think?
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Old 04-21-2014, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

3. Being a FANBOY. (For instance, Superman is the BEST superhero EVER.. and don't anyone dare say otherwise, and Batman sucks...)
4. Being politically correct, or feel like they can't say certain things on certain threads on forums...

Even on this thread, my favorite thread on AVS, AND being a current JTR owner, AND comparing those JTR's against a similar type speaker, I don't feel comfortable discussing it.

It is, after all, the JTR owners thread and I respect those that don't want to hear about other speakers.
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Old 04-21-2014, 08:01 AM
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Very excited! My Triple 8HT-LP's come today!! Working from home waiting for FedEx... (on truck for delivery)

May set them up temporarily in the upstairs family room for fun while I work. I have help coming tonight to get my screen down so that I can get them hooked up in the media room tonight.
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Old 04-21-2014, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Chris. I completely understand what you are saying. I already knew that the cd in the 212 is two in one. All I am saying is that its still superior. Thats it. I amnot saying the cheaper one is of lower value just that it doesn't perform as well.

And I have heard the s8 which is essentially a coaxial but did not think its anywhere near the quality of the 212s.

Why? You have absolutely zero ability to make that call. You cannot dump that compression driver, into a coax even like the s8 and state which performs better, or even speculate for that matter. There is way more at play here. The horn the CD is in, the speaker's voicing, etc.

So, superior from a design standpoint? Perhaps. It takes a little more R&D to get something like a 2 way CD.
Superior from a "sound" standpoint? I would argue the separation of the drivers to dedicated midranges surrounding the horn and limiting the CD's passband more makes the overall design superior, not the other way around. Point of fact, the sm60f uses a coaxial CD, and has more extension up top comparable to the Noesis. Here are measurements of the 60f in my space, and in Rilla's space. Excellent extension, two different calibrated mics as well.





Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post



Remember, I was merely speculating about distortion after hearing from Goodoc's reviews of them.. he said the Danleys gives him brain fatigue and the 212s did not..

So, as far as i know, given the following premises:

A - One set of speaker gives fatigue whereas the other doesn't.
B- Distortion causes brain fatigue (I know not of any other variables that causes that in the AB comparison here).

So, logically speaking, one of the speakers MUST be distorting...

Again, it's all speculation because Goodoc's report may be inaccurate, or, there are other unknown variables involved...

So, these are all just speculative.. I am not making any strong stance on any conclusion... Feel free to think of other variables...

Unless some around here has fibromyalgia, brain fatigue shouldn't be an issue.

We should stop speculating. While hard to do and fun to spitball ideas sometimes, this is a "Science" forum, not AVIG (I Guess) Forums. I suffer from this at times too, but bottom line we have several things at play that need to be debunked with this comparo.

1) It's not distortion, period, on either speaker.
2) Gooddoc doesn't have fibromyalgia, or brain fatigue
3) The Crossover designer(s) and voicing of the speaker is paramount. This is the largest variable with any of the speakers the quality we are discussing.
4) More than likely this 20-25khz area is blamed for a speaker being bright, when all too often, (agreed it is age-dependent) this has nothing to do with it. A slight bump at 2khz could be the culprit, even just a 2-3dB move in the speaker's response that far down can make the speaker sound "forward" or "bright," even harsh at times.

I am not trying to play fanboy here by any means, I just see some wild speculation getting thrown around and want to bring some things into focus here. I respect Tom and Jeff immensely, but each of their voicings and ideas of a perfect sounding speaker are going to be different, this will come through into their finished product. I have found my ear sees eye to eye more with Tom than Jeff, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, as many people see it differently than I and I have no issue there. I know for a fact now though that my personal idea of a great sounding speaker and Tom's is closer than mine and Jeff's. Plain and simple. Both designs are top fraction of a percent in the industry, so calling it anything less than "preference" at this point is difficult in the first place.
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Old 04-21-2014, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Cool Geek the Volt 10's have the Denovo 150 driver while the Alchemy 8's have the Denovo 205 and a horn for 30 bucks more. Worth it you think?

Personally if you have the space, I would go for the Alchemy 8.

I have recently saw a home theater build (can't remember which one now) that uses the Alpha-8 Minion.. that cost a little more though, but still a bargain at $223.

I wanted to experiment with different SEOS speaker kits but alas no luck in trying to get Erich to ship them to me...
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Old 04-21-2014, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Even on this thread, my favorite thread on AVS, AND being a current JTR owner, AND comparing those JTR's against a similar type speaker, I don't feel comfortable discussing it.

It is, after all, the JTR owners thread and I respect those that don't want to hear about other speakers.

Gooddoc, feel free to use my DIY Danley Noesis thread to share your journey or let us know if you start your own thread.

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Old 04-21-2014, 08:57 AM
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I agree with CoolGeek that the SOUND IMO from the S8 isn't even in the same league with the Noesis. Having read that so many liked the S8 at one of the GTGs, I was surprised at the sound when I finally hooked one up as a main. I'll agree with Beast it might have been the voicing decisions but I feel there is a night and day difference between the S8s and the Noesis 212. But since my S8s are up on the wall, I won't be contributing to the S in AVS.

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Old 04-21-2014, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post



4) More than likely this 20-25khz area is blamed for a speaker being bright, when all too often, (agreed it is age-dependent) this has nothing to do with it. A slight bump at 2khz could be the culprit, even just a 2-3dB move in the speaker's response that far down can make the speaker sound "forward" or "bright," even harsh at times.


People should try this for themselves. Boost up your eq in the 16 khz or even 8 khz range and it won't hurt your ears at all or sound harsh. Now try it at 4khz or 2 khz and you'l be scrambling for the remote to turn down the volume.
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Old 04-21-2014, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Why? You have absolutely zero ability to make that call. You cannot dump that compression driver, into a coax even like the s8 and state which performs better, or even speculate for that matter. There is way more at play here. The horn the CD is in, the speaker's voicing, etc.

Of course I can, the same way if I said a Mercedes is superior to a Mini. One could make the argument that in the hands of a formula one driver in a Mini may out-race an amateur in the mercedes...

Your whole argument lies in the fact that in the hands of an Expert, the cheaper, lesser CD can be made to sound great.. granted.. agreed.. but in that same expert hand, the Superior CD in the 212 CAN be made to sound EVEN better...

Here's a thought experiment... give Tom Danley both CDs, ask him to design the best speaker he can from each.. which do you think will turn out better??
Quote:
We should stop speculating.

Where's the fun in that? wink.gif

This is a forum is it not? We are living in a free country are we not? Well, maybe me, not so much.. tongue.gif

If someone says, 'ah i got a headache', and I say, 'oh could it be this and that'.. should I go to jail for it???

Quote:
While hard to do and fun to spitball ideas sometimes, this is a "Science" forum, not AVIG (I Guess) Forums. I suffer from this at times too, but bottom line we have several things at play that need to be debunked with this comparo.

1) It's not distortion, period, on either speaker. (Have you tested them for distortion?, or are you speculating?)
2) Gooddoc doesn't have fibromyalgia, or brain fatigue (You checked with Gooddoc's doctor on his medical condition? Or, speculating?)
3) The Crossover designer(s) and voicing of the speaker is paramount. This is the largest variable with any of the speakers the quality we are discussing. (Is that your own opinion or everyone else? I think, given the high level of expertise that both Jeff and Tom possesses, the biggest variable is in the Components. Again, at least in my case, I am saying it's my opinion..
4) More than likely this 20-25khz area is blamed for a speaker being bright, when all too often, (agreed it is age-dependent) this has nothing to do with it. A slight bump at 2khz could be the culprit, even just a 2-3dB move in the speaker's response that far down can make the speaker sound "forward" or "bright," even harsh at times.

I am not trying to play fanboy here by any means, I just see some wild speculation getting thrown around and want to bring some things into focus here. I respect Tom and Jeff immensely, but each of their voicings and ideas of a perfect sounding speaker are going to be different, this will come through into their finished product. I have found my ear sees eye to eye more with Tom than Jeff, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, as many people see it differently than I and I have no issue there. I know for a fact now though that my personal idea of a great sounding speaker and Tom's is closer than mine and Jeff's. Plain and simple. Both designs are top fraction of a percent in the industry, so calling it anything less than "preference" at this point is difficult in the first place.

Look, you make a lot of excellent points.. and I sort of agree with most of them....
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Old 04-21-2014, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post

I agree with CoolGeek that the SOUND IMO from the S8 isn't even in the same league with the Noesis. Having read that so many liked the S8 at one of the GTGs, I was surprised at the sound when I finally hooked one up as a main. I'll agree with Beast it might have been the voicing decisions but I feel there is a night and day difference between the S8s and the Noesis 212. But since my S8s are up on the wall, I won't be contributing to the S in AVS.

Exactly... and this is the reason why I can't imagine the CD in the S8 is anywhere close to the quality of the CD in the 212s... Jeff is, afterall, an expert in his field.. i am sure he's done the best voicing he can on the CD...

There are people who will defend anything.. and then claim that other's opinions are worth less than theirs... mad.gif
Quote:
I won't be contributing to the S in AVS.

Trust me, there aren't too much science in this forum.. I would say, 80% opinions and 20% somewhat science...

Some never understand that good science means toleration of other's free opinions, even if they are speculative.. most discoveries are speculation to begin with...

Good manners in forums and respect goes a long way to new exciting discovery, intolerance leads to 'dogma' and 'stagnation'.. i know because i live in a country that does not allow free speech.. and i value it highly...
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Old 04-21-2014, 09:10 AM
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People should try this for themselves. Boost up your eq in the 16 khz or even 8 khz range and it won't hurt your ears at all or sound harsh. Now try it at 4khz or 2 khz and you'l be scrambling for the remote to turn down the volume.

Agreed... I can't hear anything above 16Khz anyways, so can't test for that..

However, I must say that those mosquito noise do make my nephew rush for the remote.. haha... (i mean those above 16khz..) I downloaded this test soundtrack that goes from 20khz to 20hz.. and played it loud... when it started bothering my nephew, i could hear nothing...biggrin.gif
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Old 04-21-2014, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Agreed... I can't hear anything above 16Khz anyways, so can't test for that..

However, I must say that those mosquito noise do make my nephew rush for the remote.. haha... (i mean those above 16khz..) I downloaded this test soundtrack that goes from 20khz to 20hz.. and played it loud... when it started bothering my nephew, i could hear nothing...biggrin.gif


Yeah those test tones can be harsh but boosting up that range for music or movie clips is not... I'm not sure why that is. confused.gif
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Old 04-21-2014, 09:59 AM
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Exactly... and this is the reason why I can't imagine the CD in the S8 is anywhere close to the quality of the CD in the 212s... Jeff is, afterall, an expert in his field.. i am sure he's done the best voicing he can on the CD...

There are people who will defend anything.. and then claim that other's opinions are worth less than theirs... mad.gif
Trust me, there aren't too much science in this forum.. I would say, 80% opinions and 20% somewhat science...

Some never understand that good science means toleration of other's free opinions, even if they are speculative.. most discoveries are speculation to begin with...

Good manners in forums and respect goes a long way to new exciting discovery, intolerance leads to 'dogma' and 'stagnation'.. i know because i live in a country that does not allow free speech.. and i value it highly...

Ahh yes, new knowledge is a wonderful thing. And there is the distinct smell of freshness about much of the scientific knowledge on display here on AVS. rolleyes.gif
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Old 04-21-2014, 10:00 AM
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Yeah those test tones can be harsh but boosting up that range for music or movie clips is not... I'm not sure why that is. confused.gif

Sound and perception is very strange indeed. smile.gif
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Old 04-21-2014, 10:09 AM
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Well pereonally, I still think the S8s are aweeome speakers that sound great to me. I did notice a difference at higher volumes vs the Noesis but that doesnt take away from how capable they are.
Everyone on here is able to form any opinion they want, good or bad. Of course it would be nice to have actual experience with the gear discussed but we all know that doeant happen much. Looking at graphs is one thing, actually experiencing it it a whole other story.

IMO thats where most of the arguments come from, experience vs speculation. Nothing will beat good ol hands on experience.

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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Old 04-21-2014, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post


The Noesis/Orbit Shifter combo came very close to this ideal but at times, the OS's would over run the Noesis. To get full range of sound out of single speaker seemed a bridge too far. When Jeff mentioned the potential 210 and then the 215 designs he had been thinking about, I was intrigued and so I committed to a pair ( and then 3 wink.gif ) of them.

If you are really a bass guy and like over powering bass then I think it is likely the 215 isn't going to give you any more than the T12's, Noesis, Danleys or whatever combined with good subwoofers could for movies. But if your taste run more to music and/or you don't feel the need for an uber bass weighted system, then the 215's might just be the answer. I know it is foolish to say never in this hobby but this latest "upgrade" has been the most satisfying ever. It represents a paradigm shift in HT audio and follows some very old traditions in the pro audio world, It also sets some new performance standards for a single cabinet solution and any challenges have been more than out weighed by stellar performance. I'm really looking forward to others thoughts on these speakers but for me, they represent the sound I have been seeking. Of course, YMMV smile.gif

RMK, I am gonna have to crash your place if i ever go back to the US...
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Old 04-21-2014, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Well pereonally, I still think the S8s are aweeome speakers that sound great to me. I did notice a difference at higher volumes vs the Noesis but that doesnt take away from how capable they are.
Everyone on here is able to form any opinion they want, good or bad. Of course it would be nice to have actual experience with the gear discussed but we all know that doeant happen much. Looking at graphs is one thing, actually experiencing it it a whole other story.

IMO thats where most of the arguments come from, experience vs speculation. Nothing will beat good ol hands on experience.

I do have both the S8s and the 212s.. smile.gif
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Old 04-21-2014, 11:04 AM
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Anyone else attending Axpona this weekend? Really hope to get to meet any of you who's attending. Can't wait to check to the JTR exhibit. Which is first on the list of course Then Seaton and Legacy. I've never got to hear any of these speakers before. I don't even think anyone else in Hawaii has them. so I'm just excited for this trip. Speaker shopping time. And this time my wife is in it with me on this. Though I get the feeling that after a demo of the 215's it's gonna be a one stop shop. smile.gif see you guys there..
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Old 04-21-2014, 11:12 AM
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Anyone else attending Axpona this weekend? Really hope to get to meet any of you who's attending. Can't wait to check to the JTR exhibit. Which is first on the list of course Then Seaton and Legacy. I've never got to hear any of these speakers before. I don't even think anyone else in Hawaii has them. so I'm just excited for this trip. Speaker shopping time. And this time my wife is in it with me on this. Though I get the feeling that after a demo of the 215's it's gonna be a one stop shop. smile.gif see you guys there..

Take and post some pictures!!

JTR (3 212HTR's, 3 210RT's, 2 Growlers, 4 T8's)
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Old 04-21-2014, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by rhed View Post

Anyone else attending Axpona this weekend? Really hope to get to meet any of you who's attending. Can't wait to check to the JTR exhibit. Which is first on the list of course Then Seaton and Legacy. I've never got to hear any of these speakers before. I don't even think anyone else in Hawaii has them. so I'm just excited for this trip. Speaker shopping time. And this time my wife is in it with me on this. Though I get the feeling that after a demo of the 215's it's gonna be a one stop shop. smile.gif see you guys there..

I can already see it. 3 215s and 4 s2s.
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Old 04-21-2014, 11:17 AM
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Of course I can, the same way if I said a Mercedes is superior to a Mini. One could make the argument that in the hands of a formula one driver in a Mini may out-race an amateur in the mercedes...

I hate the car analogies, so I am not going there.

Your whole argument lies in the fact that in the hands of an Expert, the cheaper, lesser CD can be made to sound great.. granted.. agreed.. but in that same expert hand, the Superior CD in the 212 CAN be made to sound EVEN better...

Sure, in certain cases, but the two CD's we were originally discussing, this is not the case. They are both very capable, and far inside their limits in an HT environment.

Here's a thought experiment... give Tom Danley both CDs, ask him to design the best speaker he can from each.. which do you think will turn out better??
Where's the fun in that? wink.gif

He already has. The 96 uses the 4593, and is an impressive speaker all on its own, but Tom still considers the 50 as his flagship, and is still his go-to design when touting the synergy design in general. You don't think he gave that same 2 way CD a shake or consideration? The 96 would prove otherwise smile.gif But he still didn't go back and use it for the sh50. methinks he found larger benefit in keeping the mids and highs separated for the 50's particular application...or he wouldn't have done so.

This is a forum is it not? We are living in a free country are we not? Well, maybe me, not so much.. tongue.gif

If someone says, 'ah i got a headache', and I say, 'oh could it be this and that'.. should I go to jail for it???
Look, you make a lot of excellent points.. and I sort of agree with most of them....

Never said you couldn't but when you start saying "must be distortion" that is wild speculation on your part, unfounded, and inaccurate.
Quote:
1) It's not distortion, period, on either speaker. (Have you tested them for distortion?, or are you speculating?) Both designers and multiple members have with remarkably low distortion showing. I haven't tested in a while, but I trust their measurements more than my own anyways so...
2) Gooddoc doesn't have fibromyalgia, or brain fatigue (You checked with Gooddoc's doctor on his medical condition? Or, speculating?) Oh c'mon...
3) The Crossover designer(s) and voicing of the speaker is paramount. This is the largest variable with any of the speakers the quality we are discussing. (Is that your own opinion or everyone else? I think, given the high level of expertise that both Jeff and Tom possesses, the biggest variable is in the Components. Again, at least in my case, I am saying it's my opinion..

Both myself and most people I know that have designed speakers with quality components. The crossover is what separates the men from the boys, and is where the secret sauce for a good vs great speaker lies. These drivers are quality build, highly efficient, and while due diligence should be taken in driver selection, as I have said, when you get to this upper echelon on componentry, that is certainly not the biggest variable. There may just be very small things that one driver does better than the other at that point in mixing well with the other drivers being used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Yeah those test tones can be harsh but boosting up that range for music or movie clips is not... I'm not sure why that is. confused.gif

This chart might yield some help, as you can see there aren't too many instruments extending that far up:

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