Official JTR speaker thread - Page 616 - AVS Forum
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post #18451 of 26034 Old 04-19-2014, 12:31 PM
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Speaking of hearing sensitivities here2an idea. Build speakers with a few crossover modes. Teens. Middle aged. Old folks. Each mode brighter n brighter. Make a speaker that could appeal to everyone
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post #18452 of 26034 Old 04-19-2014, 12:47 PM
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They already have that speaker, it's made by Bose and according to the literature it's simply magical. It even has 5.0 surround from a single little box. Like I said...magical. biggrin.gif
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post #18453 of 26034 Old 04-19-2014, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Actually I am going to take a guess here without ever hearing the danleys.

It's the inferior compression driver. Tom may have thru magic pushed the capability of the driver as much as he could but somehow it still lacks that last bit of magic that is the 212s far more expensive compression driver and the low crossover.

The lower quality driver may also distorting ever so slightly that it is not consciously noticeable but still fatigueing to the brain.

Again its all truly speculation here and so don't flame me.

I am also going to guess fron goodoc reviews the danleys lack the sparkle or pop of the 212.
It's definitely not distortion, that's for sure. At high volumes there is content I'm very familiar with that sounds better to my ears on the Danley's than my 212's. Loud, clean, detailed, and massive soundstage. Depending on content and recording, imo they give up nothing in detail or clean output to the 212's. I think it has more to do with design decisions and the different qualities of the drivers in each design. I do think the 212 has a superior compression driver and I prefer the 212's at lower volumes and also at high volumes on certain content. Each of these speaker's strengths are brought out in certain recordings.


As to the low crossover of the 212's, although the drivers are crossed over in the Danley's, the output that is heard is summed into a point source before it ever leaves the horn, and the crossovers are not heard in the same way as a typical speaker where the summation of the driver's crossover occurs at some point in space into the room, resulting in measurable lobes or nulls. As a result, the Danley's behave in room as if there was no crossover at all. No nulls or lobes can be measured or heard and it appears as a single driver without a crossover and controlled directivity throughout its entire bandpass. So the Danley's are actually a bit more magical than the 212's in that regard. biggrin.gif
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post #18454 of 26034 Old 04-19-2014, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

It's definitely not distortion, that's for sure. At high volumes there is content I'm very familiar with that sounds better to my ears on the Danley's than my 212's. Loud, clean, detailed, and massive soundstage. Depending on content and recording, imo they give up nothing in detail or clean output to the 212's. I think it has more to do with design decisions and the different qualities of the drivers in each design. I do think the 212 has a superior compression driver and I prefer the 212's at lower volumes and also on certain content. Each of these speaker's strengths are brought out in certain recordings.


As to the low crossover of the 212's, although the drivers are crossed over in the Danley's, the output that is heard is summed into a point source before it ever leaves the horn, and the crossovers are not heard in the same way as a typical speaker where the summation of the drivers crossover occurs at some point in space into the room, resulting in measurable lobes or nulls. As a result, the Danley's behave in room as if there was no crossover at all. No nulls or lobes can be measured or heard and it appears as a single driver without a crossover. So the Danley's are actually a bit more magical than the 212's in that regard. biggrin.gif

But doesn't brain fatigue means distortion? Basically if the distortion is very tiny you can't hear any perceivable difference consciously because your brain is feverishly fixing the input and this result in a fatigueing brain.

Thats why I don't believe in AB real time comparisons of speakers n amps. Its only prolonged listening n your brain have settled down to the new sound that u truly know if u like it or not.
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post #18455 of 26034 Old 04-19-2014, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

But doesn't brain fatigue means distortion? Basically if the distortion is very tiny you can't hear any perceivable difference consciously because your brain is feverishly fixing the input and this result in a fatigueing brain.

Thats why I don't believe in AB real time comparisons of speakers n amps. Its only prolonged listening n your brain have settled down to the new sound that u truly know if u like it or not.

IMO it just means you're getting bored with what you are doing. I mean, you can only sit and listen to music or movies loudly before you want some silence lol. It's weird, I don't listen to music much at all at home, I sit on my PC or laptop and never have tunes playing. My work is loud and I like the silence sometimes.

that being said, I've been blasting Chevelle's new CD all day and LOVE song #5 : Hunter Eats Hunter... I LOVE the way the song sounds! awesome!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwHZ6yVPRpU

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #18456 of 26034 Old 04-19-2014, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

But doesn't brain fatigue means distortion? Basically if the distortion is very tiny you can't hear any perceivable difference consciously because your brain is feverishly fixing the input and this result in a fatigueing brain.

Thats why I don't believe in AB real time comparisons of speakers n amps. Its only prolonged listening n your brain have settled down to the new sound that u truly know if u like it or not.

Yep, I know what you're getting at. I just don't think the difference between these speakers comes down to distortion.

The 212 has a superior compression driver, which is particularly evident at lower volume due to the flat voicing. This gives the 212 an inherent advantage in SQ and an addictive quality to my ears.

The Danley's are not only voiced more laid back, but I think the coaxial driver used is not at the level of the 212 CD. This makes them less appealing at lower volumes to my ears compared to the forward and more detailed soundstage of the 212's. I called it "brain fatigue", but what I meant was it can be less involving and can cause listening boredom, particularly when one is used to that 212 sound.

But at higher volumes the Danley erases many of those deficits, and sometimes all of them. I think that is partly due to the fact that the more laid back voicing at lower volumes actually translates at times to a more listenable sound at higher volume, and the pattern control reduces the effect of high volume reflections that muddy the sound from a less directive design.

They're both awesome speakers, but different.
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post #18457 of 26034 Old 04-19-2014, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Yep, I know what you're getting at. I just don't think the difference between these speakers comes down to distortion.

The 212 has a superior compression driver, which is particularly evident at lower volume due to the flat voicing. This gives the 212 an inherent advantage in SQ and an addictive quality to my ears.

The Danley's are not only voiced more laid back, but I think the coaxial driver used is not at the level of the 212 CD. This makes them less appealing at lower volumes to my ears compared to the forward and more detailed soundstage of the 212's. I called it "brain fatigue", but what I meant was it can be less involving and can cause listening boredom, particularly when one is used to that 212 sound.

But at higher volumes the Danley erases many of those deficits, and sometimes all of them. I think that is partly due to the fact that the more laid back voicing at lower volumes actually translates at times to a more listenable sound at higher volume, and the pattern control reduces the effect of high volume reflections that muddy the sound from a less directive design.

They're both awesome speakers, but different.

That makes sense
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post #18458 of 26034 Old 04-19-2014, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

IMO it just means you're getting bored with what you are doing. I mean, you can only sit and listen to music or movies loudly before you want some silence lol. It's weird, I don't listen to music much at all at home, I sit on my PC or laptop and never have tunes playing. My work is loud and I like the silence sometimes.

that being said, I've been blasting Chevelle's new CD all day and LOVE song #5 : Hunter Eats Hunter... I LOVE the way the song sounds! awesome!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwHZ6yVPRpU

This only applies if u r equally bored with the loud music on both speakers which doesn't seem to be the case. The danleys r more fatigueing therefore just boredom doesn't really explain it.

I still feel the danley have more distortion by deduction.

1. Far cheaper cd.
2. More fatigueing.

Without more evidence I am going to think more distortion. I could be totally wrong here due to lack of other variables.

The superior point source design may make it sound great and bring out the best of cheap drivers but will not be able to hide true distortion at the cd level.
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post #18459 of 26034 Old 04-19-2014, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

LOL I had the same thoughs pretty much about the SH50's when I heard them the other night. I don't find the 212's too bright for movies most of the time but if I'm playing music at really high volumes with lots of cymbals, I find it can be pretty bright. I don't think the 212's are fatiguing at all, just that they can be a bit forward at high volumes.... in my room anyways. When I was selling them, the BrentTHX thought the same as I did but they would be perfect for behind his screen. I generally didn't listen to them loud enough to ever be an issue and of course it could be bad recordings etc.

Using my S8's as mains lately i've found they are much more laid back than the 212's are, I can have them at higher volumes than I could the 212's and they don't become to forward ever. But in contrast, they don't have the detail of the 212's that I've become used to and IMO it's very noticeable ( BrentTHX also had the same thoughts.) Even so the S8's are truly amazing speakers, I was running them for all my auditions over last weekend and every single person was like " WTF?" when looking at them LOL
What's the crossover you've set for the single8? Jeff rated them at 80Hz in half space.
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post #18460 of 26034 Old 04-19-2014, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

This only applies if u r equally bored with the loud music on both speakers which doesn't seem to be the case. The danleys r more fatigueing therefore just boredom doesn't really explain it.

I still feel the danley have more distortion by deduction.

1. Far cheaper cd.
2. More fatigueing.

Without more evidence I am going to think more distortion. I could be totally wrong here due to lack of other variables.

The superior point source design may make it sound great and bring out the best of cheap drivers but will not be able to hide true distortion at the cd level.

You are sir, entitled to an opinion. biggrin.gif
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post #18461 of 26034 Old 04-19-2014, 02:27 PM
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You are sir, entitled to an opinion. biggrin.gif

Not even an opinion as i haven't heard the Danleys.. just pure conjecture and speculation based on spotty evidence and lacking any real variables.. haha.. i guess it's a slow saturday nite... and i was bored...! tongue.gif

While I am speculating about distortion, I am also avidly watching all the Godzilla trailers i could find again... biggrin.gif
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post #18462 of 26034 Old 04-19-2014, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Not even an opinion as i haven't heard the Danleys.. just pure conjecture and speculation based on spotty evidence and lacking any real variables.. haha.. i guess it's a slow saturday nite... and i was bored...! tongue.gif

While I am speculating about distortion, I am also avidly watching all the Godzilla trailers i could find again... biggrin.gif

Well, I've heard them and I can't confirm nor deny your speculation since I haven't measured either speaker for distortion. My ears tell me that distortion is not the issue, but that doesn't prove anything.

I hate to admit it, but I've been wrong before. smile.gif
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post #18463 of 26034 Old 04-19-2014, 02:44 PM
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LOL.... well I'll cross that one off of my list..lol

Let me know how the pre/pro works, if it does I think that's the route I'll go too. If not I might start to consider the same things as jlpowell84 and look at selling my PA 7-350 to help fund a Denon AVR-4520.

The 5009 is silent!! I can't hear anything coming from the speakers even when the gains on the inukes are maxed and the volume on the onkyo maxed.

Also wanted to mention how well everything was packed, I have to question whether Sonnie even used it is in such nice condition and packed the same way it was from the factory.

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post #18464 of 26034 Old 04-19-2014, 02:57 PM
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Congrats, I nearly pulled the trigger on that myself. Oh well, glad a JTR'er got it.
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post #18465 of 26034 Old 04-19-2014, 03:00 PM
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The 5009 is silent!! I can't hear anything coming from the speakers even when the gains on the inukes are maxed and the volume on the onkyo maxed.

Also wanted to mention how well everything was packed, I have to question whether Sonnie even used it is in such nice condition and packed the same way it was from the factory.

Wow okay so that's awesome! Didn't you also have a PA 7-350 too?
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post #18466 of 26034 Old 04-19-2014, 03:01 PM
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Wow okay so that's awesome! Didn't you also have a PA 7-350 too?

No, I am using iNukes, but if you want to send it to me to test i would be more than happy smile.gif

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post #18467 of 26034 Old 04-19-2014, 03:02 PM
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No, I am using iNukes, but if you want to send it to me to test i would be more than happy smile.gif

Haha, I'll keep that in mind?
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post #18468 of 26034 Old 04-19-2014, 03:33 PM
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What's the crossover you've set for the single8? Jeff rated them at 80Hz in half space.

100hz, I tried at 80hz but IMO, it's too low, 100hz is perfect.

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #18469 of 26034 Old 04-19-2014, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

This only applies if u r equally bored with the loud music on both speakers which doesn't seem to be the case. The danleys r more fatigueing therefore just boredom doesn't really explain it.

I still feel the danley have more distortion by deduction.

1. Far cheaper cd.
2. More fatigueing.

Without more evidence I am going to think more distortion. I could be totally wrong here due to lack of other variables.

The superior point source design may make it sound great and bring out the best of cheap drivers but will not be able to hide true distortion at the cd level.

Ahh I didn't know you know more about me than me! lol I personally can only stand loud music for a certain amount of time before I'm just done with it. The KC guys had a long session and all of them said by the end of the night, they were done with loud stuff. It happens, being sick of it, bored etc. all the same thing.

Things don't have to be distorted to get sick of them. thats nuts, any loud sustained noise will get irritating after a while.

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #18470 of 26034 Old 04-19-2014, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Wow okay so that's awesome! Didn't you also have a PA 7-350 too?

Ok, upon further inspection there is a hiss if I put my ear up to the CD, I can't hear it if I move a foot away.

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post #18471 of 26034 Old 04-19-2014, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Actually I am going to take a guess here without ever hearing the danleys.

It's the inferior compression driver. Tom may have thru magic pushed the capability of the driver as much as he could but somehow it still lacks that last bit of magic that is the 212s far more expensive compression driver and the low crossover. .
I don't think I would put it like that. The BMS 4550 is one hell of a nice CD. It is the same CD Jeff uses in the S8 series so you have a couple on hand to listen to in your Slanted 8s. smile.gif

The 4593nd is coaxial CD so that is why its cost is so high. both the 4550 and 4593 are built tough.

Remember the Danleys are stadium speakers so they are meant to take a beating. Using them In a huge room with the ability to mount them to the ceiling will produce different results. Using them in a smaller areas limit the potential. Jeff builds the 212 for home theater use so its hard to compare these designs apples for apples.

Chris
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post #18472 of 26034 Old 04-19-2014, 05:27 PM
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I don't think I would put it like that. The BMS 4550 is one hell of a nice CD. It is the same CD Jeff uses in the S8 series so you have a couple on hand to listen to in your Slanted 8s. smile.gif

The 4593nd is coaxial CD so that is why its cost is so high. both the 4550 and 4593 are built tough.

Remember the Danleys are stadium speakers so they are meant to take a beating. Using them In a huge room with the ability to mount them to the ceiling will produce different results. Using them in a smaller areas limit the potential. Jeff builds the 212 for home theater use so its hard to compare these designs apples for apples.

Chris

Very true, but its still comparing a $150 CD to a $700 unit.
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post #18473 of 26034 Old 04-19-2014, 05:47 PM
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Cost means very little. I've just been cranking some live jazz for the last hour or so, and I can't say I've ever heard better. These can produce some seriously incredible sound.
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post #18474 of 26034 Old 04-19-2014, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Very true, but its still comparing a $150 CD to a $700 unit.
It is comparing a CD to a Coaxial CD. It would be more realistic to compare a coaxial driver + CD to a Coaxial CD.

if we are to compare the cost then the coaxial has to be added to the price of the CD. The 4593 $700 price tag includes 2 subsystems in one. The Coaxial driver in the Slanted 8 costs $355. so add a $150 cd and we get $505 which is much closer to the $700 price tag of the 4593. I have no idea what the Danleys mid-range cost but in the SH50 there are 4 x 5" MR drivers.

It is very difficult and misleading to compare these designs based on cost of CD alone. smile.gif When Danley does come out with a home theater oriented design it will be a more even comparison.

For my tastes I'm a straight JTR Junkie so the 215RT is my new reference standard for a speaker.
Chris
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post #18475 of 26034 Old 04-19-2014, 06:14 PM
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Yes, things like this make comparisons based simply on driver cost not very helpful,

"The holes are another part of the design. You may have noticed that as you drive loudspeakers harder and harder, they get “bright” and eventually harsh sounding. Harmonic distortion starts an octave above the real signal and extends upwards by 2,3,4,5 etc times the input frequency.
While that brightness may not be objectionable, the object here is to be a faithful reproducer and one thing that means the spectral balance should not change with level if possible.
The trapped air volume under the cone and the small holes, form an acoustical 2nd order low pass filter, like an electrical filter but in air. The object being that the harmonic distortion the drivers invariably produce, will be attenuated and not enter the horn. The effect does limit the bandwidth and that is the object of it. The idea is you DO NOT want sound the driver produces on it’s own (not part of the input signal) which is always above the electrical crossover and the short obstruction does not affect the horns radiation resistance.
Best,
Tom"
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post #18476 of 26034 Old 04-19-2014, 07:05 PM
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Ivan from Danley made a brief appearance on my DIY Danley Noesis? (http://www.avsforum.com/t/1527862/diy-danley-noesis/) thread and so I put in a request to develop a home theater version of the SM60 with the better coaxial compression driver.
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Ivan,

Thanks so much for joining in. I had heard of the Danley's but didn't really know anything about them until I went to Beast's GTG and overall I was really impressed with the SH50s but thought they were missing something when compared to the Noesis 212s.

If you go over to the JTR thread, you will see that Goodoc bought a pair of SM60F (formerly owned by Beast) to try in his own room and is still in the middle of testing them but has the same impression I had of Beast's SH50s, they are being let down by the compression driver/midrange. That's not to say that it isn't a great speaker, it just happens to be in my opinion, not as strong in that particular aspect.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1165099/official-jtr-speaker-thread/18420

Regarding my comments about the midbass, I would need to listen again as we weren't using Beast's subs at the time and so the integration might not have been as good. So I'm not really concerned about the midbass but I did find the upper and midrange to not be as clear and articulate as the Noesis 212. But damn, I absolutely loved the soundstage, it just enveloped you.

I know there are tons of speakers on the market at all levels and it is crazy to think a speaker no matter how good will be liked by everyone. However, it seems many of us on here are very interested in Danley for our home theater. It was awesome reading your Danley Kit thread and learning about the cool stuff you guys do, especially the design goals for Lambeau Field.

If you were able to build a SM60 size speaker with a coaxial compression driver similar to the 212 (maybe voiced not quite as bright) and a strong, articulate midbass that covered the 50/60-20,000 range, I'd think you'd have a hit on your hands. Assuming I haven't dialed in my 212s by then, I would be one of the first to drive down to Georgia to listen to a pair and potentially leave with them in hand. I'm sure you're busy and successful but I really do hope you find some time to make such a speaker for the home theater market.

David
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post #18477 of 26034 Old 04-19-2014, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Yes, things like this make comparisons based simply on driver cost not very helpful,

"The holes are another part of the design. You may have noticed that as you drive loudspeakers harder and harder, they get “bright” and eventually harsh sounding. Harmonic distortion starts an octave above the real signal and extends upwards by 2,3,4,5 etc times the input frequency.
While that brightness may not be objectionable, the object here is to be a faithful reproducer and one thing that means the spectral balance should not change with level if possible.
The trapped air volume under the cone and the small holes, form an acoustical 2nd order low pass filter, like an electrical filter but in air. The object being that the harmonic distortion the drivers invariably produce, will be attenuated and not enter the horn. The effect does limit the bandwidth and that is the object of it. The idea is you DO NOT want sound the driver produces on it’s own (not part of the input signal) which is always above the electrical crossover and the short obstruction does not affect the horns radiation resistance.
Best,
Tom"

That quote is all sorts of win. It all makes sense but that is genius level knowledge and I'm a wee lad learning this stuff. Thanks for sharing.
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post #18478 of 26034 Old 04-19-2014, 07:29 PM
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The 215's definitely have peaked my interest. Since the day I sold my Bowers and Wilkins setup I've been on a journey for a efficient speaker that goes loud and deep. I also wanted the speaker to be extremely musical.

I searched for years and went through countless setups. I am very happy with my current setup with Seven Unities and a SI 24'' sub.

However it still bothers the hell out of me that my speakers begin to roll off at 50hz. These JTR 215 speakers are truly my dream speakers that fulfill the specs I have searched for since day one of my pro audio journey.

In my opinion a high end speaker should have the ability to play loud and deep. I dont think it is cost effective to pay a large sum of money for a speaker with a high rollof that needs a sub since there are many quality bookshelf size speakers which have that type of design for a lot less money.

But these 215's are worth the dough. They play up and down the spectrum with no need for a sub to complete a full soundstage. That is what a flagship high end pro speaker should be.smile.gif
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post #18479 of 26034 Old 04-19-2014, 07:41 PM
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Yep, it is the definition of a flagship speaker. I'm definitely looking forward to hearing it.
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post #18480 of 26034 Old 04-19-2014, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

The 212's IMO are indeed edgy at higher volumes. I'm hoping the 215's are a bit different.

I think not as they too were "voiced for a flat FR". Jeff said he was planing some minor changes to the crossover for the subsequent 215 speakers and offered me a swap-out. I think I will stay the course because while it is relatively easy to tame offensive frequencies, it's not as easy to add back what has been intentionally attenuated by a crossover or by design.

It may be due to all of my room treatments (including ceiling), but I did not notice edginess with the 212's. They would at a point completely overpower the room with sound but I think that is a different phenomenon than edginess. smile.gif

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