Official JTR speaker thread - Page 628 - AVS Forum
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post #18811 of 21643 Old 04-25-2014, 12:37 PM
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I actually was gonna go with the second best Triads but my triad dealer uncle is about as busy as Mark and Jeff combined. High end electrical contractor in LA... cool.gif
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post #18812 of 21643 Old 04-25-2014, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

BTW, I think the sealed 212's are what you are looking for in your ^ post. smile.gif

Craig, I have the sealed 212s and would be glad to let you hear them this fall as I should have all of my downstairs projects done by them. My "theater" is in a living room open in the back to the kitchen but I will put some treatments up, just not sure how far I will go yet since it is a living room and I'm focused on engineering design with aesthetics in mind. So I'm not sure my room will be impressive enough to demo the 212s to their full potential but my goal will be to get close. If you're interested in a few months, I'll be glad to let you listen if you get down to East TN.

David
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post #18813 of 21643 Old 04-25-2014, 12:45 PM
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Craig, I have the sealed 212s and would be glad to let you hear them this fall as I should have all of my downstairs projects done by them. My "theater" is in a living room open in the back to the kitchen but I will put some treatments up, just not sure how far I will go yet since it is a living room and I'm focused on engineering design with aesthetics in mind. So I'm not sure my room will be impressive enough to demo the 212s to their full potential but my goal will be to get close. If you're interested in a few months, I'll be glad to let you listen if you get down to East TN.

Oh yeah, I also have 3 LMS 5400s and 2 UXL-18s (not installed yet) powered by one SpeakerPower SP2-8000 with a second SP2-8000 being ordered next week. I have the MiniDSP 10x10HD so I'll definitely have a "flat" curve available along with a "house" curve and a "wish I was Chop with 8 24s" curve.
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post #18814 of 21643 Old 04-25-2014, 01:16 PM
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I have been doing my best to stay out of this thread....only glancing over the posts, but not paying any sort of attention to what was being said......but I found myself with some quiet time today and I dug into some of the detailed posts.

After reading all the early reviews of the 215's....I find myself wanting to make the 8-9 hour drive up to Chicago this weekend to take a listen to these. Even found myself measuring my room(thank goodness they won't fit where my 212's are right now...lol). Seems like these are going to be showing up in more rooms faster than I would have thought.. biggrin.gif

It would be interesting to see if Jeff does come up with a different center to go along with these....

@Craig - I live about 10 minutes from David(Dgage).....I have the ported 212's and 6- SI18's in 3 DO boxes. Not as much power as him, but I am impressed with my room. If you wanted to do an A/B, I would gladly lug mine to his house.
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post #18815 of 21643 Old 04-25-2014, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post

Craig, I have the sealed 212s and would be glad to let you hear them this fall as I should have all of my downstairs projects done by them. My "theater" is in a living room open in the back to the kitchen but I will put some treatments up, just not sure how far I will go yet since it is a living room and I'm focused on engineering design with aesthetics in mind. So I'm not sure my room will be impressive enough to demo the 212s to their full potential but my goal will be to get close. If you're interested in a few months, I'll be glad to let you listen if you get down to East TN.

David

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Oh yeah, I also have 3 LMS 5400s and 2 UXL-18s (not installed yet) powered by one SpeakerPower SP2-8000 with a second SP2-8000 being ordered next week. I have the MiniDSP 10x10HD so I'll definitely have a "flat" curve available along with a "house" curve and a "wish I was Chop with 8 24s" curve.

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Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post

I have been doing my best to stay out of this thread....only glancing over the posts, but not paying any sort of attention to what was being said......but I found myself with some quiet time today and I dug into some of the detailed posts.

After reading all the early reviews of the 215's....I find myself wanting to make the 8-9 hour drive up to Chicago this weekend to take a listen to these. Even found myself measuring my room(thank goodness they won't fit where my 212's are right now...lol). Seems like these are going to be showing up in more rooms faster than I would have thought.. biggrin.gif

It would be interesting to see if Jeff does come up with a different center to go along with these....

@Craig - I live about 10 minutes from David(Dgage).....I have the ported 212's and 6- SI18's in 3 DO boxes. Not as much power as him, but I am impressed with my room. If you wanted to do an A/B, I would gladly lug mine to his house.
Thanks for the offers guys! Tennessee is a bit of a trek from Lancaster, PA, but if I'm ever down that way, I'll definitely take you up on the offer. smile.gif

Hopefully there will be a lot more listening impressions from Axpona this weekend.

Craig

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post #18816 of 21643 Old 04-25-2014, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post

I have been doing my best to stay out of this thread....only glancing over the posts, but not paying any sort of attention to what was being said......but I found myself with some quiet time today and I dug into some of the detailed posts.

After reading all the early reviews of the 215's....I find myself wanting to make the 8-9 hour drive up to Chicago this weekend to take a listen to these. Even found myself measuring my room(thank goodness they won't fit where my 212's are right now...lol). Seems like these are going to be showing up in more rooms faster than I would have thought.. biggrin.gif

It would be interesting to see if Jeff does come up with a different center to go along with these....

@Craig - I live about 10 minutes from David(Dgage).....I have the ported 212's and 6- SI18's in 3 DO boxes. Not as much power as him, but I am impressed with my room. If you wanted to do an A/B, I would gladly lug mine to his house.

Yep, no 215s for me either as the bottom half of the tower would be firing into the side of a couch...and that would be if I rebuilt the built-in for my living room that I just installed based on the 212s...dammit! smile.gif

And I agree that Coach has an impressive room and that was only with 2 DO boxes. I can't wait to hear it with the third DO enclosure.
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post #18817 of 21643 Old 04-25-2014, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post


After that post, I was called a "douche." It has since been edited to "donkey." Nonetheless, "fanboy" seems pretty mild in comparison.

Nonetheless, let me do a re-set...

Yes, N8DOGG, you are absolutely correct that the 215's will have a lot more bass output than the Seaton Catalysts. I don't know if 8 dB is the right number, but certainly "a lot" is an appropriate description. The 215's are dual 15" drivers in a much larger, ported box, tuned to about 20 Hz. The Seatons are dual 12" drivers in a smaller, sealed box with an F3 of 60 Hz in standard mode. Even with the full range DSP, the Catalysts are at a significant disadvantage to the 215's in terms of displacement, box size, alignment and potential amplifier power, and the JTR's would certainly have more bass output.

Having said that, the Catalysts are designed for a different purpose. They're, (primarily), designed for use with subwoofers, which would then supply the bass.

Rob, if you actually felt like I was trying to make you look foolish, I can only say that you completely misinterpreted my intentions. I was merely trying to understand the design considerations of your speakers. I learned a lot about their design from your comments and those of others. The fact that they're 3-way designs and the 15" woofers are crossed to the mids at 350 Hz negates the entire discussion about large drivers "beaming" at higher frequencies.

As I have said repeatedly, I am intrigued by these speakers. I have yet to find another speaker that I would trade my Triad Platinums for. However, these 215's look like contenders. I intend to audition them at some point when they're more readily available. I would be even more interested in a set that used the save driver components in a sealed box with an F3 of 60 to 80 Hz.

Is there some place other than this thread to find info on the 215's? I don't see anything on the JTR website yet.

Craig

I hope we can put this to bed. I am sorry for any personal comments, but once you throw something out on the boards (and someone quotes you wink.gif ) it's out there.

Since you have by all accounts done such an excellent job of integrating the Plats with your Submersives, I'm not sure the 215RT's would have much to offer you except perhaps additional SPL. Based upon some of your comments I don't think that increased SPL is necessary so outside of your natural curiosity, I'm not sure there is anything inherent with the 215RT's that would provide an improvement.

That said, I would hope you get to hear them at some point because as Swolephile said above, a true full range speaker like the 215, priced under $4K is an outlier but has an appeal to some. I'm sure it is hard to find a place for this in an organized logical brain. Maybe that is why I like it so much ... smile.gif

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post #18818 of 21643 Old 04-25-2014, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

You can't see to grasp that all I was doing was comparing what the full range 215's could do vs the Cats running full range When Mark let them loose.
I do grasp it and I agreed that you are correct.
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Thats it, just a point of reference for people that that may be curious about the 2, since theres always been talk of how good the seatons were when Mark ran them full range. You decided to be Seaton police ( and yes, we all know you hang out there on the seaton thread, so calling me or anyone else on here a fanboi is pretty ironic) and told me I can't make that comparison. If I came into the Seaton thread and told you, you can't make a post about a simple observation, you'd get defensive also. You don't have the right to tell anyone what to do or how/what to post.
I said "Don't even bother to make the comparison." It was an offhand comment meant to highlight the fact that the two speakers are different. I could have just as easily said: "I wouldn't bother making this comparison." I certainly wasn't intending to tell you what you can or cannot post. If you took it the wrong way, well... I'll try to be more clear next time.
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I'm also not sure why you expect Rob/Anyone to know the answers to your technical questions (since he's the only one that has a set), not everyone knows everything about their speakers, most people just want them to sound good and have a bit of basic understanding on them. You want answers to your questions, ask the designer.
As far as I know, Rob is the only person in the world with these speakers. There's no one else to ask. (I don't know Jeff P. and I don't see him post here.) If Rob doesn't know the answers, that's fine. A simple IDK is sufficient. Actually, he did answer several of my questions, as did others, so I appreciate the information.
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If you read through the thread, you'd know Jeff has no plans on a sealed version, thats what the 212's are for.
I don't subscribe to this thread. I just check in now and then because I usually find this a very friendly group.

The 212's don't seem to be this speaker in a sealed box. The 212's have two 12" drivers, not two 15" drivers. They look to be in a ported box, or the sealed version looks to be a horizontal speaker. Can the sealed version be turned vertically? Do the 212's use the same coaxial mid/tweeter as the 215's? Are the horns the same? I will try to get an audition of the 212's at some point, but Rob's listening impressions made it seem like the 215's offered a bigger soundstage and better SQ than the 212's.
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

These are end all be all full range flagship speakers flat to 18hz. For anyone that doesn't want the size of the 215's, they can look at the 210's.
Can you post a link to the information on the 210's?

I have fairly big speakers now so I'm not concerned about the size of the speakers. They can go behind the screen. What I don't want is "full range" speakers. I love my Submersives and don't have any intention of getting rid of them. A sealed 215 with an F3 of ~60 Hz would work well in my system and that's why I would be interested in them. I have tried to integrate "full range" speakers with subwoofers too many times. It always ends up with the speaker having a crossover so high that the bass extension seems wasted.

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post #18819 of 21643 Old 04-25-2014, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post

Seems like these are going to be showing up in more rooms faster than I would have thought.. biggrin.gif

The 215 is an awesome speaker by spec, and I have no doubt that they sound exceptional, but I'm left to wonder why so many want to jump on them?

I know they worked out fairly spectacularly in Rob's room, but there is no escaping the fact that many rooms will still need distributed bass to excel across a wide bandwidth at more than a couple listening positions. In fact, integrating those mains and center could be an absolute disaster in some cases requiring crossing them over to subs in the typical 60-80 Hz region, making them very costly satellites, albeit with full bandwidth 2 channel reproduction

It makes sense to me what Rob did - sold his subs and went with just the 215's. A gamble that worked out well for him and I'm truly happy for him on that account. But to think that success story will be duplicated across a wide distribution of different rooms is, I think, not realistic. Not to even mention that he had the help of some very sophisticated and knowledgeable folks to set them up, including the designer himself. This was a far more complicated calibration than most any of us here are capable of pulling off without a lot of time and trial and error.

2 channel purists, I get it. San subs as Rob has done, I get it - if it works. But crossed over to subs which some, or perhaps many, will have to do(room dependent) doesn't make sense to me. Unless of course it's just to own one the most imposing speakers that's been seen in some time. I get that too.

As I said, this is not to put down the 215 in any way, I just have found it interesting that so many are interested in a full range speaker given the fairly broad acceptance of the distributed bass model in this thread prior to their release.

I know there can be some significant upsides to an integrated low end via an internal crossover if implemented correctly in a compatible room, and Rob's room speaks to that by all accounts. But there are a lot of potential complications, what ifs, and no can do's in there for it to be worth it to me.

I admit though, I am firmly in the camp of distributing bass modules where they work best in the modal regions and distributing mains and satellites where they work best for imaging and seating coverage. The introduction of the 215 didn't change that for me.

I guess I'm curious why it did for so many?
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post #18820 of 21643 Old 04-25-2014, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

The 212's don't seem to be this speaker in a sealed box. The 212's have two 12" drivers, not two 15" drivers. They look to be in a ported box, or the sealed version looks to be a horizontal speaker. Can the sealed version be turned vertically? Do the 212's use the same coaxial mid/tweeter as the 215's? Are the horns the same? I will try to get an audition of the 212's at some point, but Rob's listening impressions made it seem like the 215's offered a bigger soundstage and better SQ than the 212's.
Can you post a link to the information on the 210's?

The 215RT horn is wood and integrated into the cabinet.

The 212HT horn is a metal horn screwed into the cabinet and can be rotated for horizontal or vertical use. In my case, I have 3 Noesis 212HT-LP for LCR and have rotated the horn for horizontal center channel use while the LR are vertical.

If you want huge soundstage, you might want to get an audition of a Danley horn speaker, which are also meant to be more of an LCR than a full range (depending on model). Actually, they're really meant to be installed in large venues although there has been discussion of Danley coming out with HT specific designs soon.

Beast had a GTG and he has the Danley SH50s. Humongous soundstage. (http://www.avsforum.com/t/1524457/beasts-first-ever-ballin-out-nc-g2g-april-5th)

I started a DIY Danley Noesis thread as I think my ideal speaker would be a combination of the Danley SM60f and JTR Noesis 212. Ivan from Danley has also posted some good information. (http://www.avsforum.com/t/1527862/diy-danley-noesis)
Regarding my comments about the Danley's not having articulate midbass, that was when the guest SI HS24 24" subwoofer was playing. I believe they sounded better with Beast's subwoofer system but we weren't doing the critical listening then.
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post #18821 of 21643 Old 04-25-2014, 02:59 PM
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Ok Craig, we will drop the whole thing, it's all good in my books.

The 212's and the 215/210's use the same CD just a bit different xover point.
The 212's are in either LP (sealed) models or ported, they both can be used any position, the horn just needs to be rotated when laying horizontal. A 2 minute job.

Ther isn't much info on either the 215 or 210 other than what drivers and cab sizes. No one has any answers about them really, other than they few that attended the GTG at Robs.

The SQ is completely subjective, so other than hearing them for yourself, it's pretty tough ti answer an SQ question.

I agree that adding full range speakers into a sub system sucks. I personally have a set of 215's coming but plan to use the cut them off at 80hz and only use the full range for 2 channel dutys.

From what everyone thats heard your theater says, it's fantastic. Why do you want to change it?

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post #18822 of 21643 Old 04-25-2014, 03:01 PM
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You may end up with the same opinion, but I think it would be a great idea for you to measure your response with an omni and get a minidsp to dial in the bass and mess with different response curves.

Beware though, it can be a rabbit hole of never ending sweeps while you tweak/experiment with different curves to see what you like. Personally I have fun doing that but I could see it driving some people nuts. smile.gif I don't tweak much anymore but I love the capability.

Agreed. But most of the time I have my sub off for music and run all seven speakers in full range or at 50hz. I love sub bass for movies and I have a mini dsp in my closet which I used with my Chase subs. However I just love the sound of multiple speakers for music. Seems so balanced. I've always preferred it over any house curve or flat eq with running any set of subs.

My opinion still holds that if guys hear heard what matching flagship and second tier speakers from the same family with fairly low crossovers sound like with multichannel music, they would not go back to old school two channel listening. However, I have not seen anyone else on this site doing so besides myself which is shocking to me given the amount of money thrown around here.
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post #18823 of 21643 Old 04-25-2014, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

The 215 is an awesome speaker by spec, and I have no doubt that they sound exceptional, but I'm left to wonder why so many want to jump on them?

I know they worked out fairly spectacularly in Rob's room, but there is no escaping the fact that many rooms will still need distributed bass to excel across a wide bandwidth at more than a couple listening positions. In fact, integrating those mains and center could be an absolute disaster in some cases requiring crossing them over to subs in the typical 60-80 Hz region, making them very costly satellites, albeit with full bandwidth 2 channel reproduction

It makes sense to me what Rob did - sold his subs and went with just the 215's. A gamble that worked out well for him and I'm truly happy for him on that account. But to think that success story will be duplicated across a wide distribution of different rooms is, I think, not realistic. Not to even mention that he had the help of some very sophisticated and knowledgeable folks to set them up, including the designer himself. This was a far more complicated calibration than most any of us here are capable of pulling off without a lot of time and trial and error.

2 channel purists, I get it. San subs as Rob has done, I get it - if it works. But crossed over to subs which some, or perhaps many, will have to do(room dependent) doesn't make sense to me. Unless of course it's just to own one the most imposing speakers that's been seen in some time. I get that too.

As I said, this is not to put down the 215 in any way, I just have found it interesting that so many are interested in a full range speaker given the fairly broad acceptance of the distributed bass model in this thread prior to their release.

I know there can be some significant upsides to an integrated low end via an internal crossover if implemented correctly in a compatible room, and Rob's room speaks to that by all accounts. But there are a lot of potential complications, what ifs, and no can do's in there for it to be worth it to me.

I admit though, I am firmly in the camp of distributing bass modules where they work best in the modal regions and distributing mains and satellites where they work best for imaging and seating coverage. The introduction of the 215 didn't change that for me.

I guess I'm curious why it did for so many?

I think more people are excited about them because you get everything. The ability to use them 2 channel full range if you wish, full range with/without subs. I want to be able to crank out some 2 channel bass when I want and they will be used in conjunction with my wall of death when blast I a movie. smile.gif You loose a bit of sensitivity going with the 215's but amps are cheap enough to make than a non-issue imo.

btw, I watched Battle of L.A. last night at +7 and the S8's just hammered away. Although after the movie, it felt like I'd been in a boxing match lol Full body punishment in that movie biggrin.gif

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post #18824 of 21643 Old 04-25-2014, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

The SQ is completely subjective, so other than hearing them for yourself, it's pretty tough ti answer an SQ question.

To add even more to the subjectivity of the 215s sound is that RMK received the first set of 215RTs...anywhere you lucky dog! smile.gif RMK is definitely waxing poetically about the sound of his 215s but he has something few others will ever get...Jeff helped setup the 215s in Rob's room IN PERSON. So Jeff, the designer, helped install a set of home theater speakers. Besides Jeff there were a few others that helped so RMK received tremendous support to get the 215s sounding as good as possible (close to optimal?) and very few others would get that sort of treatment or have the capability to tune to the room to that degree.

So as much as RMK loves his 215s, I take it with a grain of salt that anyone else will have the same experience when the 215s show up in someone else's room. Of course, that won't stop me from listening to a set if I ever get the chance. smile.gif
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post #18825 of 21643 Old 04-25-2014, 03:10 PM
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That said...I'm considering the 215's even though I probably shouldn't be. I'll hear them in June so I'll make up my mind then.

Haha. You are a musical purist who listens to music for multiple hours straight like I do. You will not be able to resist the temptation for musical perfection after hearing these speakers. I KNOW you are going to give in and get these speakers after selling the Noesis 212 speakers. It's going to be a very short ownership for them. Lol.
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post #18826 of 21643 Old 04-25-2014, 03:22 PM
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I know they worked out fairly spectacularly in Rob's room, but there is no escaping the fact that many rooms will still need distributed bass to excel across a wide bandwidth at more than a couple listening positions.

RMK!'s system is bass managed and the drivers are close enough that the they effectively couple from 112 Hz and down (maybe even higher). So you have six 15" "subwoofers" spaced throughout the front of the room all acoustically combining. It makes for a very smooth frequency response among the seats and possibly less front to rear row variation than distributed bass. In his room the -3 dB point is 15 Hz. It was rare for the 15" drivers to ever make much noticeable movement, even at high volume. All the bass is combined from 120 Hz and down and sent to all three speakers.

I would estimate each speaker to have output that is more than a Submersive (at least in the lower bass). At Data-Bass a ported vs dual opposed using the same driver had up to a 13 dB advantage (I'm not saying these are the same drivers). Add all three speakers together . . . wink.gif

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post #18827 of 21643 Old 04-25-2014, 03:25 PM
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I started a DIY Danley Noesis thread as I think my ideal speaker would be a combination of the Danley SM60f and JTR Noesis 212. Ivan from Danley has also posted some good information. (http://www.avsforum.com/t/1527862/diy-danley-noesis)
Regarding my comments about the Danley's not having articulate midbass, that was when the guest SI HS24 24" subwoofer was playing. I believe they sounded better with Beast's subwoofer system but we weren't doing the critical listening then.

Although I know you think the combo is what you're looking for, and maybe it is, but you need to hear the 60's first. It's changed how I look at it, that's for sure. Preferences come into play and subjective bias, but my impressions of the 60's has not changed from the gtg. I still like them more than my 212's.

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post #18828 of 21643 Old 04-25-2014, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post



Thanks for the offers guys! Tennessee is a bit of a trek from Lancaster, PA, but if I'm ever down that way, I'll definitely take you up on the offer. smile.gif

Hopefully there will be a lot more listening impressions from Axpona this weekend.

Craig
The 215's are so new that I think there are only 2 pairs out there. He does have them on the JTR website now under the residential speakers.


I have the 212's and I am in Cape May. If you ever want to hear them let me know. I am actually thinking about the 215's, but I am not sure if I want to go to a full range range speaker only. I know they have bass, but I don't think it would be enough for me. I like the full effect of a true 7.4 system.

I will agree with Carp, I also want to hear the 215's in June and will make my decision from there. There are a few other HT speakers I would also like to listen to as well, but the 215's could be on the list.
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post #18829 of 21643 Old 04-25-2014, 03:34 PM
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Ok Craig, we will drop the whole thing, it's all good in my books.

The 212's and the 215/210's use the same CD just a bit different xover point.
The 212's are in either LP (sealed) models or ported, they both can be used any position, the horn just needs to be rotated when laying horizontal. A 2 minute job.

Ther isn't much info on either the 215 or 210 other than what drivers and cab sizes. No one has any answers about them really, other than they few that attended the GTG at Robs.

The SQ is completely subjective, so other than hearing them for yourself, it's pretty tough ti answer an SQ question.

I agree that adding full range speakers into a sub system sucks. I personally have a set of 215's coming but plan to use the cut them off at 80hz and only use the full range for 2 channel dutys.

From what everyone thats heard your theater says, it's fantastic. Why do you want to change it?

You bring up an interesting point-

What would happen if the port on the 215s was plugged? I am not sure what the cabinet frequency would be since it was designed to be ported, but I cannot see it breaking anything.

Personally, because of the size alone, I am leaning towards L/R 210s with either a 210 or 212 for the center. I usually like my crossover set to 60hz as with anything higher I perceive directionality in the bass and the 210 has plenty of extension down to that point and below.
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post #18830 of 21643 Old 04-25-2014, 03:38 PM
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RMK!'s system is bass managed and the drivers are close enough that the they effectively couple from 112 Hz and down (maybe even higher). So you have six 15" "subwoofers" spaced throughout the front of the room all acoustically combining. It makes for a very smooth frequency response among the seats and possibly less front to rear row variation than distributed bass. In his room the -3 dB point is 15 Hz. It was rare for the 15" drivers to ever make much noticeable movement, even at high volume. All the bass is combined from 120 Hz and down and sent to all three speakers.

I would estimate each speaker to have output that is more than a Submersive (at least in the lower bass). At Data-Bass a ported vs dual opposed using the same driver had up to a 13 dB advantage (I'm not saying these are the same drivers). Add all three speakers together . . . wink.gif


That's awesome!

Are you suggesting that this arrangement would result in the same response fairly universally in different rooms?

My thoughts and concerns is that it won't. But I'm curious about your thoughts on that.

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post #18831 of 21643 Old 04-25-2014, 06:41 PM
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That's awesome!

Are you suggesting that this arrangement would result in the same response fairly universally in different rooms?

My thoughts and concerns is that it won't. But I'm curious about your thoughts on that.

Of course not ... I have a magic room and all who have experienced it have sensed it's power.

HToM

"Well, la di fricken da."!
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post #18832 of 21643 Old 04-25-2014, 06:49 PM
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The 215 is an awesome speaker by spec, and I have no doubt that they sound exceptional, but I'm left to wonder why so many want to jump on them?

I know they worked out fairly spectacularly in Rob's room, but there is no escaping the fact that many rooms will still need distributed bass to excel across a wide bandwidth at more than a couple listening positions. In fact, integrating those mains and center could be an absolute disaster in some cases requiring crossing them over to subs in the typical 60-80 Hz region, making them very costly satellites, albeit with full bandwidth 2 channel reproduction

It makes sense to me what Rob did - sold his subs and went with just the 215's. A gamble that worked out well for him and I'm truly happy for him on that account. But to think that success story will be duplicated across a wide distribution of different rooms is, I think, not realistic. Not to even mention that he had the help of some very sophisticated and knowledgeable folks to set them up, including the designer himself. This was a far more complicated calibration than most any of us here are capable of pulling off without a lot of time and trial and error.

2 channel purists, I get it. San subs as Rob has done, I get it - if it works. But crossed over to subs which some, or perhaps many, will have to do(room dependent) doesn't make sense to me. Unless of course it's just to own one the most imposing speakers that's been seen in some time. I get that too.

As I said, this is not to put down the 215 in any way, I just have found it interesting that so many are interested in a full range speaker given the fairly broad acceptance of the distributed bass model in this thread prior to their release.

I know there can be some significant upsides to an integrated low end via an internal crossover if implemented correctly in a compatible room, and Rob's room speaks to that by all accounts. But there are a lot of potential complications, what ifs, and no can do's in there for it to be worth it to me.

I admit though, I am firmly in the camp of distributing bass modules where they work best in the modal regions and distributing mains and satellites where they work best for imaging and seating coverage. The introduction of the 215 didn't change that for me.

I guess I'm curious why it did for so many?

Very good points Doc! Unless music is a huge deal and you don't plan on running 2 channel full range often then there is no reason at all unless you just want them to have them. Or you have the money for a slightly larger soundstage...Heck my submersive triple 8 makes a hell of a full range speaker smile.gif 2-15, 3-8's...

But in general the acoustical issues of rooms means you might need subs where the mains obviously can't be. Not always but a lot of the time.
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post #18833 of 21643 Old 04-25-2014, 07:10 PM
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there's still that 'missing' element / magic of Imax.. which I can't put my finger on that I prefer overall... possibly more mid bass coupled with a large hall which can't be duplicated at home. Also, Imax has rear speakers that also produces a lot of mid bass slam.. there are times that i jump in my seat when something explodes behind me at the Imax...
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I have a single os and its more bass than I can handle except it doesn't do mid bass... I can turn the os to naseating levels and I wont get the mid bass I want.
I've done a lot of reading about this. The correct way to get better mid bass is bigger main speakers, not subwoofer.
I think it's time for you to try the real cinema stuff: http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/Cinema-Market/ . Takes 8-10 weeks if you order via our local distributor MahajakTrio.

Or...get 215RT for all your channels.
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post #18834 of 21643 Old 04-25-2014, 07:14 PM
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Of course not ... I have a magic room and all who have experienced it have sensed it's power.

It appears you have a very good room Rob. I didn't ask the question facetiously. There is evidence out there for loading a front wall with bass, but I don't think the concept applies to just 3 bass sources. And there's other aspects to it.

But I don't profess to be an expert and it's entirely possible the configuration has some benefit I'm not aware of.

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It appears you have a very good room Rob. I didn't ask the question facetiously. There is evidence out there for loading a front wall with bass, but I don't think the concept applies to just 3 bass sources. And there's other aspects to it.

But I don't profess to be an expert and it's entirely possible the configuration has some benefit I'm not aware of.

I have read that acoustically the "double bass array" is the best possible solution for the most natural smoothest response that avoids room modes. Basically the front and back walls are loaded with subs from side to side and top to bottom. I think there is a crazy guy with 18 subs that is approaching such grounds smile.gif
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post #18836 of 21643 Old 04-25-2014, 07:44 PM
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I've done a lot of reading about this. The correct way to get better mid bass is bigger main speakers, not subwoofer.
I think it's time for you to try the real cinema stuff: http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/Cinema-Market/ . Takes 8-10 weeks if you order via our local distributor MahajakTrio.

Or...get 215RT for all your channels.

115db sensitive? Thats crazy!
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post #18837 of 21643 Old 04-25-2014, 08:09 PM
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for the Volt 10 speaker does anyone think I should stay with ported as I had planned or go with the sealed. I am just asking because I was just gonna order Eric's flat packs with it but he only has flat packs for the sealed version. I know I can just cut my own materials so that would be easy. But do you think there are any real benefits in the performance?

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/coaxial-speaker-kits/v10-volt-kit.html
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post #18838 of 21643 Old 04-25-2014, 08:21 PM
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I've done a lot of reading about this. The correct way to get better mid bass is bigger main speakers, not subwoofer.
I think it's time for you to try the real cinema stuff: http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/Cinema-Market/ . Takes 8-10 weeks if you order via our local distributor MahajakTrio.

Or...get 215RT for all your channels.

I've heard a few different JBL pro speakers but not the big monsters. I've always wondered how they big arrays would sound in a smaller personal HT room.

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #18839 of 21643 Old 04-25-2014, 08:28 PM
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I've heard a few different JBL pro speakers but not the big monsters. I've always wondered how they big arrays would sound in a smaller personal HT room.
I don't think one can put the taller monsters (4000 & 5000 series) in the house due to height issue. The MF and HF would be too high with respect to our listening distance. The 3677, 3678, 3722, 4722 & 3731 will fit nicely in the room. The smallest 3677 monitor/bookshelf has the volume of a typical 15" sub. Do check out this 3677 thread.

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even going with "just" the 3677's will be the best decision you can make
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Ok.. Never made it to the show today.. lol.. Had to finish off more sight seeing. I even missed the Pono seminar. But either way Im gonna pre-order a Pono player when I get back home. So tomorrow is all day at the Axpona. I really can't wait to hear both 215's and the Cats. Some Legacy also. But wifey already know what direction I'm going anyway.. She said make your stop.. Introduce yourself.. Tell em what you want.. And let's get out of there to do more sight seeing.. I was like Huh?
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