Official JTR speaker thread - Page 628 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #18811 of 31294 Old 04-25-2014, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

The 215 is an awesome speaker by spec, and I have no doubt that they sound exceptional, but I'm left to wonder why so many want to jump on them?

I know they worked out fairly spectacularly in Rob's room, but there is no escaping the fact that many rooms will still need distributed bass to excel across a wide bandwidth at more than a couple listening positions. In fact, integrating those mains and center could be an absolute disaster in some cases requiring crossing them over to subs in the typical 60-80 Hz region, making them very costly satellites, albeit with full bandwidth 2 channel reproduction

It makes sense to me what Rob did - sold his subs and went with just the 215's. A gamble that worked out well for him and I'm truly happy for him on that account. But to think that success story will be duplicated across a wide distribution of different rooms is, I think, not realistic. Not to even mention that he had the help of some very sophisticated and knowledgeable folks to set them up, including the designer himself. This was a far more complicated calibration than most any of us here are capable of pulling off without a lot of time and trial and error.

2 channel purists, I get it. San subs as Rob has done, I get it - if it works. But crossed over to subs which some, or perhaps many, will have to do(room dependent) doesn't make sense to me. Unless of course it's just to own one the most imposing speakers that's been seen in some time. I get that too.

As I said, this is not to put down the 215 in any way, I just have found it interesting that so many are interested in a full range speaker given the fairly broad acceptance of the distributed bass model in this thread prior to their release.

I know there can be some significant upsides to an integrated low end via an internal crossover if implemented correctly in a compatible room, and Rob's room speaks to that by all accounts. But there are a lot of potential complications, what ifs, and no can do's in there for it to be worth it to me.

I admit though, I am firmly in the camp of distributing bass modules where they work best in the modal regions and distributing mains and satellites where they work best for imaging and seating coverage. The introduction of the 215 didn't change that for me.

I guess I'm curious why it did for so many?

I think more people are excited about them because you get everything. The ability to use them 2 channel full range if you wish, full range with/without subs. I want to be able to crank out some 2 channel bass when I want and they will be used in conjunction with my wall of death when blast I a movie. smile.gif You loose a bit of sensitivity going with the 215's but amps are cheap enough to make than a non-issue imo.

btw, I watched Battle of L.A. last night at +7 and the S8's just hammered away. Although after the movie, it felt like I'd been in a boxing match lol Full body punishment in that movie biggrin.gif

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post #18812 of 31294 Old 04-25-2014, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

The SQ is completely subjective, so other than hearing them for yourself, it's pretty tough ti answer an SQ question.

To add even more to the subjectivity of the 215s sound is that RMK received the first set of 215RTs...anywhere you lucky dog! smile.gif RMK is definitely waxing poetically about the sound of his 215s but he has something few others will ever get...Jeff helped setup the 215s in Rob's room IN PERSON. So Jeff, the designer, helped install a set of home theater speakers. Besides Jeff there were a few others that helped so RMK received tremendous support to get the 215s sounding as good as possible (close to optimal?) and very few others would get that sort of treatment or have the capability to tune to the room to that degree.

So as much as RMK loves his 215s, I take it with a grain of salt that anyone else will have the same experience when the 215s show up in someone else's room. Of course, that won't stop me from listening to a set if I ever get the chance. smile.gif
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post #18813 of 31294 Old 04-25-2014, 03:10 PM
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That said...I'm considering the 215's even though I probably shouldn't be. I'll hear them in June so I'll make up my mind then.

Haha. You are a musical purist who listens to music for multiple hours straight like I do. You will not be able to resist the temptation for musical perfection after hearing these speakers. I KNOW you are going to give in and get these speakers after selling the Noesis 212 speakers. It's going to be a very short ownership for them. Lol.

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post #18814 of 31294 Old 04-25-2014, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

I know they worked out fairly spectacularly in Rob's room, but there is no escaping the fact that many rooms will still need distributed bass to excel across a wide bandwidth at more than a couple listening positions.

RMK!'s system is bass managed and the drivers are close enough that the they effectively couple from 112 Hz and down (maybe even higher). So you have six 15" "subwoofers" spaced throughout the front of the room all acoustically combining. It makes for a very smooth frequency response among the seats and possibly less front to rear row variation than distributed bass. In his room the -3 dB point is 15 Hz. It was rare for the 15" drivers to ever make much noticeable movement, even at high volume. All the bass is combined from 120 Hz and down and sent to all three speakers.

I would estimate each speaker to have output that is more than a Submersive (at least in the lower bass). At Data-Bass a ported vs dual opposed using the same driver had up to a 13 dB advantage (I'm not saying these are the same drivers). Add all three speakers together . . . wink.gif

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post #18815 of 31294 Old 04-25-2014, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post

I started a DIY Danley Noesis thread as I think my ideal speaker would be a combination of the Danley SM60f and JTR Noesis 212. Ivan from Danley has also posted some good information. (http://www.avsforum.com/t/1527862/diy-danley-noesis)
Regarding my comments about the Danley's not having articulate midbass, that was when the guest SI HS24 24" subwoofer was playing. I believe they sounded better with Beast's subwoofer system but we weren't doing the critical listening then.

Although I know you think the combo is what you're looking for, and maybe it is, but you need to hear the 60's first. It's changed how I look at it, that's for sure. Preferences come into play and subjective bias, but my impressions of the 60's has not changed from the gtg. I still like them more than my 212's.
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post #18816 of 31294 Old 04-25-2014, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post



Thanks for the offers guys! Tennessee is a bit of a trek from Lancaster, PA, but if I'm ever down that way, I'll definitely take you up on the offer. smile.gif

Hopefully there will be a lot more listening impressions from Axpona this weekend.

Craig
The 215's are so new that I think there are only 2 pairs out there. He does have them on the JTR website now under the residential speakers.


I have the 212's and I am in Cape May. If you ever want to hear them let me know. I am actually thinking about the 215's, but I am not sure if I want to go to a full range range speaker only. I know they have bass, but I don't think it would be enough for me. I like the full effect of a true 7.4 system.

I will agree with Carp, I also want to hear the 215's in June and will make my decision from there. There are a few other HT speakers I would also like to listen to as well, but the 215's could be on the list.
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post #18817 of 31294 Old 04-25-2014, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Ok Craig, we will drop the whole thing, it's all good in my books.

The 212's and the 215/210's use the same CD just a bit different xover point.
The 212's are in either LP (sealed) models or ported, they both can be used any position, the horn just needs to be rotated when laying horizontal. A 2 minute job.

Ther isn't much info on either the 215 or 210 other than what drivers and cab sizes. No one has any answers about them really, other than they few that attended the GTG at Robs.

The SQ is completely subjective, so other than hearing them for yourself, it's pretty tough ti answer an SQ question.

I agree that adding full range speakers into a sub system sucks. I personally have a set of 215's coming but plan to use the cut them off at 80hz and only use the full range for 2 channel dutys.

From what everyone thats heard your theater says, it's fantastic. Why do you want to change it?

You bring up an interesting point-

What would happen if the port on the 215s was plugged? I am not sure what the cabinet frequency would be since it was designed to be ported, but I cannot see it breaking anything.

Personally, because of the size alone, I am leaning towards L/R 210s with either a 210 or 212 for the center. I usually like my crossover set to 60hz as with anything higher I perceive directionality in the bass and the 210 has plenty of extension down to that point and below.
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post #18818 of 31294 Old 04-25-2014, 03:38 PM
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RMK!'s system is bass managed and the drivers are close enough that the they effectively couple from 112 Hz and down (maybe even higher). So you have six 15" "subwoofers" spaced throughout the front of the room all acoustically combining. It makes for a very smooth frequency response among the seats and possibly less front to rear row variation than distributed bass. In his room the -3 dB point is 15 Hz. It was rare for the 15" drivers to ever make much noticeable movement, even at high volume. All the bass is combined from 120 Hz and down and sent to all three speakers.

I would estimate each speaker to have output that is more than a Submersive (at least in the lower bass). At Data-Bass a ported vs dual opposed using the same driver had up to a 13 dB advantage (I'm not saying these are the same drivers). Add all three speakers together . . . wink.gif


That's awesome!

Are you suggesting that this arrangement would result in the same response fairly universally in different rooms?

My thoughts and concerns is that it won't. But I'm curious about your thoughts on that.
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post #18819 of 31294 Old 04-25-2014, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

That's awesome!

Are you suggesting that this arrangement would result in the same response fairly universally in different rooms?

My thoughts and concerns is that it won't. But I'm curious about your thoughts on that.

Of course not ... I have a magic room and all who have experienced it have sensed it's power.

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post #18820 of 31294 Old 04-25-2014, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

The 215 is an awesome speaker by spec, and I have no doubt that they sound exceptional, but I'm left to wonder why so many want to jump on them?

I know they worked out fairly spectacularly in Rob's room, but there is no escaping the fact that many rooms will still need distributed bass to excel across a wide bandwidth at more than a couple listening positions. In fact, integrating those mains and center could be an absolute disaster in some cases requiring crossing them over to subs in the typical 60-80 Hz region, making them very costly satellites, albeit with full bandwidth 2 channel reproduction

It makes sense to me what Rob did - sold his subs and went with just the 215's. A gamble that worked out well for him and I'm truly happy for him on that account. But to think that success story will be duplicated across a wide distribution of different rooms is, I think, not realistic. Not to even mention that he had the help of some very sophisticated and knowledgeable folks to set them up, including the designer himself. This was a far more complicated calibration than most any of us here are capable of pulling off without a lot of time and trial and error.

2 channel purists, I get it. San subs as Rob has done, I get it - if it works. But crossed over to subs which some, or perhaps many, will have to do(room dependent) doesn't make sense to me. Unless of course it's just to own one the most imposing speakers that's been seen in some time. I get that too.

As I said, this is not to put down the 215 in any way, I just have found it interesting that so many are interested in a full range speaker given the fairly broad acceptance of the distributed bass model in this thread prior to their release.

I know there can be some significant upsides to an integrated low end via an internal crossover if implemented correctly in a compatible room, and Rob's room speaks to that by all accounts. But there are a lot of potential complications, what ifs, and no can do's in there for it to be worth it to me.

I admit though, I am firmly in the camp of distributing bass modules where they work best in the modal regions and distributing mains and satellites where they work best for imaging and seating coverage. The introduction of the 215 didn't change that for me.

I guess I'm curious why it did for so many?

Very good points Doc! Unless music is a huge deal and you don't plan on running 2 channel full range often then there is no reason at all unless you just want them to have them. Or you have the money for a slightly larger soundstage...Heck my submersive triple 8 makes a hell of a full range speaker smile.gif 2-15, 3-8's...

But in general the acoustical issues of rooms means you might need subs where the mains obviously can't be. Not always but a lot of the time.

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post #18821 of 31294 Old 04-25-2014, 07:10 PM
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there's still that 'missing' element / magic of Imax.. which I can't put my finger on that I prefer overall... possibly more mid bass coupled with a large hall which can't be duplicated at home. Also, Imax has rear speakers that also produces a lot of mid bass slam.. there are times that i jump in my seat when something explodes behind me at the Imax...
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I have a single os and its more bass than I can handle except it doesn't do mid bass... I can turn the os to naseating levels and I wont get the mid bass I want.
I've done a lot of reading about this. The correct way to get better mid bass is bigger main speakers, not subwoofer.
I think it's time for you to try the real cinema stuff: http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/Cinema-Market/ . Takes 8-10 weeks if you order via our local distributor MahajakTrio.

Or...get 215RT for all your channels.
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post #18822 of 31294 Old 04-25-2014, 07:14 PM
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Of course not ... I have a magic room and all who have experienced it have sensed it's power.

It appears you have a very good room Rob. I didn't ask the question facetiously. There is evidence out there for loading a front wall with bass, but I don't think the concept applies to just 3 bass sources. And there's other aspects to it.

But I don't profess to be an expert and it's entirely possible the configuration has some benefit I'm not aware of.
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post #18823 of 31294 Old 04-25-2014, 07:36 PM
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It appears you have a very good room Rob. I didn't ask the question facetiously. There is evidence out there for loading a front wall with bass, but I don't think the concept applies to just 3 bass sources. And there's other aspects to it.

But I don't profess to be an expert and it's entirely possible the configuration has some benefit I'm not aware of.

I have read that acoustically the "double bass array" is the best possible solution for the most natural smoothest response that avoids room modes. Basically the front and back walls are loaded with subs from side to side and top to bottom. I think there is a crazy guy with 18 subs that is approaching such grounds smile.gif

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post #18824 of 31294 Old 04-25-2014, 07:44 PM
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I've done a lot of reading about this. The correct way to get better mid bass is bigger main speakers, not subwoofer.
I think it's time for you to try the real cinema stuff: http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/Cinema-Market/ . Takes 8-10 weeks if you order via our local distributor MahajakTrio.

Or...get 215RT for all your channels.

115db sensitive? Thats crazy!

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post #18825 of 31294 Old 04-25-2014, 08:09 PM
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for the Volt 10 speaker does anyone think I should stay with ported as I had planned or go with the sealed. I am just asking because I was just gonna order Eric's flat packs with it but he only has flat packs for the sealed version. I know I can just cut my own materials so that would be easy. But do you think there are any real benefits in the performance?

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post #18826 of 31294 Old 04-25-2014, 08:21 PM
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I've done a lot of reading about this. The correct way to get better mid bass is bigger main speakers, not subwoofer.
I think it's time for you to try the real cinema stuff: http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/Cinema-Market/ . Takes 8-10 weeks if you order via our local distributor MahajakTrio.

Or...get 215RT for all your channels.

I've heard a few different JBL pro speakers but not the big monsters. I've always wondered how they big arrays would sound in a smaller personal HT room.

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post #18827 of 31294 Old 04-25-2014, 08:28 PM
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I've heard a few different JBL pro speakers but not the big monsters. I've always wondered how they big arrays would sound in a smaller personal HT room.
I don't think one can put the taller monsters (4000 & 5000 series) in the house due to height issue. The MF and HF would be too high with respect to our listening distance. The 3677, 3678, 3722, 4722 & 3731 will fit nicely in the room. The smallest 3677 monitor/bookshelf has the volume of a typical 15" sub. Do check out this 3677 thread.

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post #18828 of 31294 Old 04-25-2014, 08:38 PM
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Ok.. Never made it to the show today.. lol.. Had to finish off more sight seeing. I even missed the Pono seminar. But either way Im gonna pre-order a Pono player when I get back home. So tomorrow is all day at the Axpona. I really can't wait to hear both 215's and the Cats. Some Legacy also. But wifey already know what direction I'm going anyway.. She said make your stop.. Introduce yourself.. Tell em what you want.. And let's get out of there to do more sight seeing.. I was like Huh?
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post #18829 of 31294 Old 04-25-2014, 08:40 PM
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The 5000's are 9.5 feet high, ya for most of us, that would be to tall but I'm sure someone with 12 foot ceilings could rock them out! lol. Those quad subs and that giant tower would sure be something to look at ! biggrin.gif

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post #18830 of 31294 Old 04-25-2014, 08:50 PM
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I love this thread because it was no more than a month ago and there was all kinds of discussion about not needing more power than a std AVR to play insane loud levels with the 212's, now were all about (just paraphrasing) "no lets get 15" or 18" mid bass drivers or 9ft tall speakers because two 12's ain't enough". I like this latest way of thinking more. Just keep taking it higher. Of course we are quickly elevating this to most of us needing new homes with 25 ft ceilings and 25,000 cu ft rooms!!

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post #18831 of 31294 Old 04-25-2014, 08:57 PM
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so here's a potential solution for midbass if the 212 with 2100 watts isn't enough. Get another LG and 4 JTR growlers and place them all up front under the mains. Or the OS pro for more midbass? N8 what do you like?, any of the horn options for midbass or some of the midbass 18 modules?

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Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post

I love this thread because it was no more than a month ago and there was all kinds of discussion about not needing more power than a std AVR to play insane loud levels with the 212's, now were all about (just paraphrasing) "no lets get 15" or 18" mid bass drivers or 9ft tall speakers because two 12's ain't enough". I like this latest way of thinking more. Just keep taking it higher. Of course we are quickly elevating this to most of us needing new homes with 25 ft ceilings and 25,000 cu ft rooms!!

Yea.. And the days of dual subs are becoming a minimum now.. Hmm, I'll just at another OS to mix for a triplet.. Oh wait.. Sorry brown.. I forgot who I was quoting to.. smile.gif btw, see you Sunday bro.
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post #18833 of 31294 Old 04-25-2014, 09:08 PM
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yeah I should be down there by 9am, should be a lot of fun. How was your day today? Did you hear the 215 today?

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post #18834 of 31294 Old 04-25-2014, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post

so here's a potential solution for midbass if the 212 with 2100 watts isn't enough. Get another LG and 4 JTR growlers and place them all up front under the mains. Or the OS pro for more midbass? N8 what do you like?, any of the horn options for midbass or some of the midbass 18 modules?

That would be overkill. I think a couple of sealed 18s mbms would do the trick for me. I know this is blaspheme territory but I much prefer the sound of sealed subs over any other. For some reason they sound cleaner and tighter and smoother to me
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post #18835 of 31294 Old 04-25-2014, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post

so here's a potential solution for midbass if the 212 with 2100 watts isn't enough. Get another LG and 4 JTR growlers and place them all up front under the mains. Or the OS pro for more midbass? N8 what do you like?, any of the horn options for midbass or some of the midbass 18 modules?

Good thought. I was just looking at some of the JBL midbass/bass drivers a little while ago. I know some have also mentioned Acoustic Elegance speakers for midbass. Any other thoughts on midbass options like Brown is asking, both DIY and commercial?

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post #18836 of 31294 Old 04-25-2014, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

That would be overkill.

SHUT UP! tongue.gif

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post #18837 of 31294 Old 04-25-2014, 09:32 PM
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Of course no one around here is known for a little overkill ! LOL tongue.gif
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post #18838 of 31294 Old 04-25-2014, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post

yeah I should be down there by 9am, should be a lot of fun. How was your day today? Did you hear the 215 today?

No.. I posted earlier that I didn't make it. Had to finish off the sight seeing with the family today. But definitely will tomorrow and Sunday. My wife already know the direction which speakers I'm gonna go with. So she kind of talk me into not showing up today and rather just spend more time sight seeing. Man, I even pre-paid the tickets for my wife and I (kids free) for the 3 events. But she'd would rather have gone to the Science of Industry Muesum and Sky Deck. I know, I know.. Better be nice right?
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post #18839 of 31294 Old 04-25-2014, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by rhed View Post

No.. I posted earlier that I didn't make it. Had to finish off the sight seeing with the family today. But definitely will tomorrow and Sunday. My wife already know the direction which speakers I'm gonna go with. So she kind of talk me into not showing up today and rather just spend more time sight seeing. Man, I even pre-paid the tickets for my wife and I (kids free) for the 3 events. But she'd would rather have gone to the Science of Industry Muesum and Sky Deck. I know, I know.. Better be nice right?
probably the right move;)

Pre-Pro: Emotiva XMC-1, DSP: Mini DSP 2x4 balanced
Amplifier: Sunfire TGA7400, Lab Gruppen FP10000Q
Speakers: JTR Noesis 212HT (LCR), JTR Slant 8's (surrounds), 3 Orbit Shifter LFU's
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post #18840 of 31294 Old 04-25-2014, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post


I've done a lot of reading about this. The correct way to get better mid bass is bigger main speakers, not subwoofer.
I think it's time for you to try the real cinema stuff: http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/Cinema-Market/ . Takes 8-10 weeks if you order via our local distributor MahajakTrio.

Or...get 215RT for all your channels.

Speaking of overkill... biggrin.gif

You're right though, subs aren't designed for mid bass.. Dr. HSU have said that in his site as well and that's why he invented the Mid Bass Modules... No drivers can do ALL frequencies well.

The 212s + MBMs + Orbit Shifter = Ultimate Experience.
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