Official JTR speaker thread - Page 637 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #19081 of 30452 Old 04-30-2014, 08:24 AM
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Myself being a auto painter for the last 16 years (yikes I'm only 34 and I've been doing it that long already lol) Both of the auto finishes would easily be worth the extra cost if you were so inclined to get them. It's a ton of work.... That being said, I'm with Rob on this one, I ordered duratex, although scratches could be polished out of either one ( assuming they are using matte clear on the lambo finish) they will need a lot of care to look their best. I've done quite a few subs gloss black, ones the size of the OS and bigger..... It's an awful job and I'm happy it's not me doing it. lol

that being said, I personally HATE matte finishes on anything big, I've done 200K vehicles matte black, blue, red etc and always try to talk the customers out of it.... tongue.gif

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post #19082 of 30452 Old 04-30-2014, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post

Focal? Did I see Focal mentioned on page 632 tongue.gif. I don't mean to hijack this thread but I have the 1027's along with the cc1000 center and chorus surrounds. I obviously think they sound great and it's cool that some of you seemed to have liked Focal as well. I have been unable to really listen to any JTR speakers though. I have been to 2 GTG where they were on the list but I ended up leaving without really listening to them. I do remember that at one of the GTG, they some JTR speakers were playing as I was walking to the door and even in that brief moment, I did like what I heard. I do hope to have a chance to listen to some sort of JTR speakers at some point just to satisfy my curiosity.
OK. Potential de-rail over. I now return you to your regularly scheduled JTR discussions smile.gif.

My dad bought some Focal Sib XLs when the local stereo store went out of business...he also bought a $3000 Focal 13" sub. After he never really used them, he gave them to me. I never really liked them for music or theater, especially the "music" sub. The Focal sub only playing to 30Hz or so is the reason I came back to AVS. Finding the DIY subs and JTR speakers is why I stayed around....plus the guys on this thread and others are really cool.

As long as you don't come in and talk "stuff", please bring it up if it's even related to JTR. Other speakers are fair game as many of us have had other speakers previously and just happen to like a great speaker in the JTR. As good as JTR is, even fans of it will say it isn't for everyone, good thing there are so many speakers. But if you're looking for high end speaker sound (not necessarily price) I'd say JTR needs to be on your short list. And there are many on this thread within a few hours of you that I'm sure would be glad to host you for a listening session.

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post #19083 of 30452 Old 04-30-2014, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Myself being a auto painter for the last 16 years (yikes I'm only 34 and I've been doing it that long already lol) Both of the auto finishes would easily be worth the extra cost if you were so inclined to get them. It's a ton of work.... That being said, I'm with Rob on this one, I ordered duratex, although scratches could be polished out of either one ( assuming they are using matte clear on the lambo finish) they will need a lot of care to look their best. I've done quite a few subs gloss black, ones the size of the OS and bigger..... It's an awful job and I'm happy it's not me doing it. lol

that being said, I personally HATE matte finishes on anything big, I've done 200K vehicles matte black, blue, red etc and always try to talk the customers out of it.... tongue.gif

I'm a woodworker and have a nice 4-stage HVLP...it's a lot nicer than my capability to use it. Well I tried to get my two subwoofer enclosures to a gloss black using the HVLP gun. I even went out and bought some 3M Platinum Plus body filler to get it as smooth as possible. I tried a couple gloss paints as well as a nice spray able black lacquer...even tried brush and roller along with the sprayer. I've got everything available at my disposal except for the requisite skill to do a good job. Definitely harder than I expected. All of the sanding I was doing also caused shoulder pain and I had "tennis shoulder" for several weeks. After all of that work, Duratex is looking awfully inviting.

So congrats on being a good painter. My car needs painting...I wish I was closer to see if you'd do it. I haven't been able to find anyone near me to do it...they're either to busy with collision repair or not that good.

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post #19084 of 30452 Old 04-30-2014, 08:42 AM
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I would never bring up "stuff" about other speakers. And I happen to agree with you about that Focal sub. I know exactly which one you are talking about. That is why I use a SubMersive HP. Again, I am not going to muck this thread up. I will just say that I got the Focal's for such a good price, that no matter I look at, if I choose to make a move, it would be hard to make a switch. And the 1027's are light years away from the Sib and Cub setup. Maybe one day I will get the chance to check them out. I like reading other speaker threads just for fun. It's very easy to see that many people hold JTR in very high regard. Just by reading the posts, I am sure that they do sound fantastic.

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post #19085 of 30452 Old 04-30-2014, 08:51 AM
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As long as you have subwoofers, you won't need the 215's.  The 212's are more than fine.  I heard the 228's a few times at a local buddy's theater and they are extremely detailed, so I know the 212's would be great.

Why do you say that? Clearly the 215's should have quite a bit more mid bass output over the 212's.

In one of the other threads were the 212's are being compared directly to some Danley speakers, it keeps popping up that the Danley's have more mid bass output. I'm sure a speaker like the 215 in a slightly more compact version would crush both speakers in that department.

Even think back to some of the GTG's the Gorilla has hosted, one thing that he says that he loves about he's York U215's is the amount of mid bass they have, which is a clear advantage over the 212's. I really could see a market for a smaller version of the 215RT's. If someone wants the ultimate full range tower they could buy the 215RT's, and if someone wanted the ultimate LCR speaker that would crush just about any other LCR speaker from say 50hz and up they could go with a 215HT.

Almost seems like a win win too me smile.gif
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post #19086 of 30452 Old 04-30-2014, 09:02 AM
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Isn't the smaller version of the 215's the 210's? The 210's should be able to put out more bass/mid-bass than the 212's can.

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post #19087 of 30452 Old 04-30-2014, 09:07 AM
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I hear ya on that one, I have other expensive hobbies though such has dirt bikes, and terrible self control when it comes to expensive watches....lol
So often my HT hobby takes a back seat to the other ones smile.gif

Plus we make it a high priority to travel once or twice a year, quite often to the beautiful Island you live on!....lol

Watches? Really?I like my watches.. I have 2 rolys a pres and a submariner. I just got my wife one a year ago with black pearl face with dia. on the 3,6,12. And dia. Bezel. All genuine brand new with papers from Ben Bridge.. We like traveling too. We travel at least 2-3 times a year. Flying out from Hawaii is fun. Because we get to experience the difference in climate at different places. Hawaii is just one type of weather temperature year round. We don't have the 4 season. Lol..


I'm a little late to the party. My wife has one of those gold and SS models and I have a GMT Master II that she gave me when I first started flying international 21 years ago. They're both going strong. smile.gif

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post #19088 of 30452 Old 04-30-2014, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Isn't the smaller version of the 215's the 210's? The 210's should be able to put out more bass/mid-bass than the 212's can.

When Jeff and I talked about my proposed order. I asked him if the 212's would be a good match. He told me he had a different design that would be better. So he explained the details of the cc. After I put my orders in, in my invoice its labeled as 215RM. Which will be my CC.
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post #19089 of 30452 Old 04-30-2014, 09:59 AM
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I would never bring up "stuff" about other speakers. And I happen to agree with you about that Focal sub. I know exactly which one you are talking about. That is why I use a SubMersive HP. Again, I am not going to muck this thread up. I will just say that I got the Focal's for such a good price, that no matter I look at, if I choose to make a move, it would be hard to make a switch. And the 1027's are light years away from the Sib and Cub setup. Maybe one day I will get the chance to check them out. I like reading other speaker threads just for fun. It's very easy to see that many people hold JTR in very high regard. Just by reading the posts, I am sure that they do sound fantastic.

Hey Mike,

Good to see you here. During my "Revel Phase" the 1027's were on my short list. Great speakers and for your room size and use, they are a great choice. The JTR advantage isn't so much sound quality as much as effortless un-distorted playing at reference and above with very little power. Your Focals have great detail and imaging but if you try and play Metallica ( or pick you poison tongue.gif) at concert levels, they simply can't do it. That limitation doesn't bother most people as sane folks don't listen at concert levels often. But on those occasions when you want to "blow out the cobwebs" you can do so without worry of your tweeters landing in your lap. smile.gif

The HT dynamics are also in another league but again, you don't miss what you haven't heard ... wink.gif

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post #19090 of 30452 Old 04-30-2014, 10:03 AM
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Isn't the smaller version of the 215's the 210's? The 210's should be able to put out more bass/mid-bass than the 212's can.

+1 and no ones even heard that speaker ... biggrin.gif

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post #19091 of 30452 Old 04-30-2014, 10:25 AM
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Im sitting in this parking lot waiting for the wife to be done at the store..Dang I wish I was back in Chicago. . Only to come back with rainy weather and overcast. Feels like Chicago. Well except for the cold..lol


Yeah, I feel awful for you.smile.gif I'm headed to a sox game in 50 degree weather, i wish I was in Hawaii.

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post #19092 of 30452 Old 04-30-2014, 10:45 AM
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Hey Mike,

Good to see you here. During my "Revel Phase" the 1027's were on my short list. Great speakers and for your room size and use, they are a great choice. The JTR advantage isn't so much sound quality as much as effortless un-distorted playing at reference and above with very little power. Your Focals have great detail and imaging but if you try and play Metallica ( or pick you poison tongue.gif) at concert levels, they simply can't do it. That limitation doesn't bother most people as sane folks don't listen at concert levels often. But on those occasions when you want to "blow out the cobwebs" you can do so without worry of your tweeters landing in your lap. smile.gif

The HT dynamics are also in another league but again, you don't miss what you haven't heard ... wink.gif
Hey Rob. I agree with the effortless part. I can play music and movies loud enough for me without really hearing any strain. But there was a time when Craig came over and we were really pushing my system. I mean, way beyond what I would do on a regular basis and Craig said he heard breakup. Now TBH, I did not hear it. For me though, I can through on some Candlebox or TOOL and play it loud enough for me. I am so far from reference in my room with these speakers it's not even funny. I should measure how loud I think loud is in my room and just see what it is. I know for movies that anything above 105-110 is really loud. Even when I play concert BR or DVD's I am sure I am not near concert levels. But I am cool with it. In my room my "system" gets loud enough for me to really enjoy it.

Now I can also appreciate what full reference can give you. I have never heard a system like I have when I go over to Craig's house. I don't know the SPL level we reach but I do know that we turned the the level to -3db and it was freaking fantastic. Plus I had no ear pain or fatigue. So I do understand why so many people like these high sensitive, well made speakers. So I have heard it and I am in awe of it.
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post #19093 of 30452 Old 04-30-2014, 10:48 AM
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I would never bring up "stuff" about other speakers. And I happen to agree with you about that Focal sub. I know exactly which one you are talking about. That is why I use a SubMersive HP. Again, I am not going to muck this thread up. I will just say that I got the Focal's for such a good price, that no matter I look at, if I choose to make a move, it would be hard to make a switch. And the 1027's are light years away from the Sib and Cub setup. Maybe one day I will get the chance to check them out. I like reading other speaker threads just for fun. It's very easy to see that many people hold JTR in very high regard. Just by reading the posts, I am sure that they do sound fantastic.

Mike,

RMK was able to use his experience with yours and similar speakers to state more eloquently the difference between the JTR and similar speakers compared to "normal" speakers. I consider normal to be more conventional speakers that don't have a pro audio background. Also, I hope you'll stick around the JTR thread as it is an informative and entertaining thread with a bunch of great guys.

David

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post #19094 of 30452 Old 04-30-2014, 10:49 AM
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I really want to make an attempt and call Jeff about the 215 options that might be out there, but I am afraid of what he might tell me.

My guess(and for the record, I am merely a novice in my knowledge of the technical end of things)is that a 215 that is designed just like the 212's but with the different horn would compete well with the Danleys and Yorkville speakers previous posts have referenced.

Midbass has always been the one area that I thought I could improve upon in my room.

This could be achieved by re-working the current EQ in room, possibly adding some MBM or perhaps an upcoming 215HT...biggrin.gif

Realistically, I am not in the position to drop the dough on what it would cost for these speakers...minus selling my Noesis speakers.

That is why I am hesitant to call him at this point....might wait until the GTG in June to talk to him...

In the meantime, I shall start selling anything I don't need...biggrin.gif:D
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post #19095 of 30452 Old 04-30-2014, 10:57 AM
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I really want to make an attempt and call Jeff about the 215 options that might be out there, but I am afraid of what he might tell me.

My guess(and for the record, I am merely a novice in my knowledge of the technical end of things)is that a 215 that is designed just like the 212's but with the different horn would compete well with the Danleys and Yorkville speakers previous posts have referenced.

Midbass has always been the one area that I thought I could improve upon in my room.

This could be achieved by re-working the current EQ in room, possibly adding some MBM or perhaps an upcoming 215HT...biggrin.gif

Realistically, I am not in the position to drop the dough on what it would cost for these speakers...minus selling my Noesis speakers.

That is why I am hesitant to call him at this point....might wait until the GTG in June to talk to him...

In the meantime, I shall start selling anything I don't need...biggrin.gif:D

Midbass is my only real issue with the 212s as well. I wonder if there might be a better 12" driver that we could use for those of us that want a little more output from our 212s. That might actually be a better route to take than getting a 215RM. I wonder if Jeff would be open to that line of discussion.

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post #19096 of 30452 Old 04-30-2014, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by rhed View Post

When Jeff and I talked about my proposed order. I asked him if the 212's would be a good match. He told me he had a different design that would be better. So he explained the details of the cc. After I put my orders in, in my invoice its labeled as 215RM. Which will be my CC.

I was more commenting on how people are wondering about a sealed 215. Instead of a sealed 215, it seems like the 210 was developed for that exact reason. I didn't mean anything about the center.

I'll be interested to see what the new center looks like! Jeff said to me the new sub drivers wouldn't be in until the end of May.

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post #19097 of 30452 Old 04-30-2014, 11:01 AM
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Mike,

RMK was able to use his experience with yours and similar speakers to state more eloquently the difference between the JTR and similar speakers compared to "normal" speakers. I consider normal to be more conventional speakers that don't have a pro audio background. Also, I hope you'll stick around the JTR thread as it is an informative and entertaining thread with a bunch of great guys.

David
I got you. Like I said, I like hanging around other forums just to see what is out there. I would say that you are right in that my speakers are more "normal". When people typically think of a speaker for music they probably have a vision in their head that resembles my speaker more then the JTR speakers. I am not saying the JTR's can't do music because clearly from the posts here, they can. My speakers are probably looked at as music speakers that can also be used in a HT environment. The JTR's, as you say, look like they come from a more professional audio background. That's cool. I have no illusions that my speakers can compete with the JTR offerings in dynamics and holding together at much higher levels then my speakers can. But, it's a compromise I have been willing to live with because as I said in my room, the dynamics are enough for me. And thanks for letting me hang out in the deep end of the pool biggrin.gif.

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post #19098 of 30452 Old 04-30-2014, 11:01 AM
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Midbass is my only real issue with the 212s as well. I wonder if there might be a better 12" driver that we could use for those of us that want a little more output from our 212s. That might actually be a better route to take than getting a 215RM. I wonder if Jeff would be open to that line of discussion.

Might be a better way.....but I am also curious about the new horn.
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post #19099 of 30452 Old 04-30-2014, 11:02 AM
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Maybe I will call him and run this idea by him......then he can squash my hopes and keep my wallet with a smile on it. smile.gif
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post #19100 of 30452 Old 04-30-2014, 11:02 AM
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Midbass is my only real issue with the 212s as well. I wonder if there might be a better 12" driver that we could use for those of us that want a little more output from our 212s. That might actually be a better route to take than getting a 215RM. I wonder if Jeff would be open to that line of discussion.

It's crazy how much volume you can play and those 12's barley moves at all. Even when I was feeding the 212's x 4000 watts each at insane volumes, they still never did much of anything. My ported T12's on the other hand would be jumping pretty good!

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post #19101 of 30452 Old 04-30-2014, 11:24 AM
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Midbass is my only real issue with the 212s as well. I wonder if there might be a better 12" driver that we could use for those of us that want a little more output from our 212s. That might actually be a better route to take than getting a 215RM. I wonder if Jeff would be open to that line of discussion.

This is always a murky subject. I is hard to even get a consensus on what midbass is. Let's say that midbass is 80-150hz ... That is clearly the responsibility of the Loudspeakers woofer (THX spec) but in Carps case, he moved his low pass up to 150hz for sub bass output thereby transferring the midbass frequencies to his subwoofers. He seems quite happy with that solution although at those frequencies, the bass should be localizable.

Jeff could probably tweak the cross over to bump those midbass frequencies on the 212. His goal was a flat FR with the Noesis but it seems that some (not me) feel there is something missing in this region. Another option is EQ. With EQ you could boost and measure those frequencies to see if that is truly the issue.

I remain unconvinced that the Noesis 212 is light on midbass but if owners (prospective or existing) feel otherwise there are some easy ways to test the theory. smile.gif
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post #19102 of 30452 Old 04-30-2014, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post

Midbass is my only real issue with the 212s as well. I wonder if there might be a better 12" driver that we could use for those of us that want a little more output from our 212s. That might actually be a better route to take than getting a 215RM. I wonder if Jeff would be open to that line of discussion.

I'm sure if there's a demand for them Jeff will make them for you, at the very least he'd do a one off for you. Jeff always seems to be open to custom stuff as long as people are willing to pay.
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post #19103 of 30452 Old 04-30-2014, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

This is always a murky subject. I is hard to even get a consensus on what midbass is. Let's say that midbass is 80-150hz ... That is clearly the responsibility of the Loudspeakers woofer (THX spec) but in Carps case, he moved his low pass up to 150hz for sub bass output thereby transferring the midbass frequencies to his subwoofers. He seems quite happy with that solution although at those frequencies, the bass should be localizable.

Jeff could probably tweak the cross over to bump those midbass frequencies on the 212. His goal was a flat FR with the Noesis but it seems that some (not me) feel there is something missing in this region. Another option is EQ. With EQ you could boost and measure those frequencies to see if that is truly the issue.

I remain unconvinced that the Noesis 212 is light on midbass but if owners (prospective or existing) feel otherwise there are some easy ways to test the theory. smile.gif



The reason I went to a 150 hz crossover wasn't because I found the 212's lacking in mid-bass, it was because I had a pretty uneven freq response from 80-150 that I could fix with eq in the subs with the minidsp. I later experimented with my mains hooked u to an inuke 3000dsp and then used an 80hz crossover with the ability to eq the mains from 80-150hz.

I'm not sure which I like better but both sound great - although different. Lately I've been mostly been using the 80 hz crossover. I too am not sure there is any lacking of mid-bass with the 212, and definitely not when you eq to add some mid bass to them. However, nothing gives the midbass slam/feel of the mbm directly behind my seat. If that is what mid-bass should be like from the main speakers then yes I am missing something from the 212's - however I also don't get as much feel from my SI's either (at the same volume level in comparison to the speakers vs. the mbm).

For whatever reason crossing at 150hz is not localizeable at all in my room, not sure why.
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post #19104 of 30452 Old 04-30-2014, 01:01 PM
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In my room, even boosting the mids 70-160hz freq +8 , they still were not even close to enough for my liking ( I had the sealed versions)
My MBM helped out a ton and resolved that issue completely but I'd rather have that extra sub out for other subs, rather than what it was used for.

Bring on the 215's!!!!
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post #19105 of 30452 Old 04-30-2014, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

In my room, even boosting the mids 70-160hz freq +8 , they still were not even close to enough for my liking ( I had the sealed versions)
My MBM helped out a ton and resolved that issue completely but I'd rather have that extra sub out for other subs, rather than what it was used for.

Bring on the 215's!!!!

N8Dogg, you sir have a disease...and I have no clue how you gave it to me. Luckily I am still in the initial stages of Bassitis while your disease has reached a full on epidemic. eek.gif
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post #19106 of 30452 Old 04-30-2014, 02:07 PM
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What driver are you guys using for your MBM? Im assuming its a pro audio driver and not a subwoofer like the TD18 or 2242. Sealed or ported?
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post #19107 of 30452 Old 04-30-2014, 02:22 PM
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The issue with something like JTR 212's is not that they lack midbass. The issue is that most speakers are placed in the room in a location that the reflections cause cancellations in the midbass. I found this in my own room when using the 212's for a couple of weeks. Adding an MBM helps alleviate the issue. Adding a baffle wall eliminates most of the problem reflections. Read I am not getting enough bass? and it explains it. Even though the title is about bass, the issue really effects midbass more. RMK! gets help in his room from the lossy design of the room; front, side, and top absorption; and the extra midbass provided by the center speaker even when listening to stereo content.
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What driver are you guys using for your MBM? Im assuming its a pro audio driver and not a subwoofer like the TD18 or 2242. Sealed or ported?
Acoustic Elegance PB18H+ drivers are used in the sealed MBMs I build for dlbeck's The Savoy theater. Actually, rather than MBM's these can be considered full subwoofers.
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post #19108 of 30452 Old 04-30-2014, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

In my room, even boosting the mids 70-160hz freq +8 , they still were not even close to enough for my liking ( I had the sealed versions)
My MBM helped out a ton and resolved that issue completely but I'd rather have that extra sub out for other subs, rather than what it was used for.

Bring on the 215's!!!!

Geeez.......I guess I need to get my ticket and jump aboard! biggrin.gif
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post #19109 of 30452 Old 04-30-2014, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

The issue with something like JTR 212's is not that they lack midbass. The issue is that most speakers are placed in the room in a location that the reflections cause cancellations in the midbass. I found this in my own room when using the 212's for a couple of weeks. Adding an MBM helps alleviate the issue. Adding a baffle wall eliminates most of the problem reflections. Read I am not getting enough bass? and it explains it. Even though the title is about bass, the issue really effects midbass more. RMK! gets help in his room from the lossy design of the room; front, side, and top absorption; and the extra midbass provided by the center speaker even when listening to stereo content.
Acoustic Elegance PB18H+ drivers are used in the sealed MBMs I build for dlbeck's The Savoy theater. Actually, rather than MBM's these can be considered full subwoofers.

Although that article could be true for many, it's simply not my issue at all. The difference is what our expectations of mid-bass are, plain and simple and I'd bet thats the case, more so than cancellation issues.
I do not like a flat theater. it's bland and boring IMO. For max impact, midbass in the 130-80hz regions need to be 8-10dB higher than flat. I could have went with the ported 212's and had the extra 6dB's of midbass but at the time, I had a sealed center and didn't want to go ported. My plan all along was to do MBM as I knew right from day 1, they wouldn't do what I want, so I improvised.

I purpose build my MBM to be in a small box and only do the frequency's I needed. In their intended ported boxes, they can do just fine 25hz +-3dB in JBL's designed boxes. I personally had reached out JBL's design team and asked a few questions about my MBM build, they saw the AVS thread I started and actually built the box I went with 1.9CF and a QTC of .707. I personally know a few guys who build the same things and are using them in various HT's with excellent results. In my new place, I hope to use the 12 more 2242's I have in storage that I got through a theater company going out of business!

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #19110 of 30452 Old 04-30-2014, 04:57 PM
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For max impact, midbass in the 130-80hz regions need to be 8-10dB higher than flat.
eek.gif
I guess 15" for woofer size on speaker is the ideal size. Nobody has ever complained about JBL Pro Cinema's 15" mid bass. JTR's 215RM might be cure.
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