Official JTR speaker thread - Page 676 - AVS Forum
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post #20251 of 22595 Old 06-01-2014, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post

There should be no reason why 100W can't drive them to reference levels. wink.gif

Theoretical reference level peaks are 105dBSPL at the listening position for each main channel on a properly calibrated system. Assuming your HT room is fairly well treated, your looking at around 8dBSPL attenuation for distance to the 15.5ft listening position. This means the speaker will need to produce 113dBSPL at 1m from the baffle for those reference level peaks.

Therefore, on average the 95dB/1W/1m sensitive 215RT's will require 18dB of gain from the amp or (Crown calculator) 63W - call it 70W, to produce reference level peaks at your listening position. Note too that this is for program peaks, and is still only half the continuous rated power of your AVR. Bass management to subs will further reduce the power demand on the AVR's amps. At reference, general program material say 20dB below the peaks will call for 0.7W from the amp in your situation.

The Denon 4311CI is a seriously good, 4Ω rated AVR. It would capably handle the 215RT's at reference level on it's own. Your Parasound is the cherry on top.
Bragging rights. cool.gif

Or... the ability to play at +17dB master volume (the max.) if the urge strikes you. biggrin.gif

I knew someone would do the math ... tongue.gifwink.gif

Seems right to me except in my case, the 215RT's are full range plus LFE and so the power requirements are much greater than a bass managed system with separate powered subwoofers.

There is a good reason Jeff and Mark Seaton use 2000-4000 watt amps on their powered subs. The point may be moot as it's seems I am destined to be alone on Full Range plus LFE Island ... smile.gif

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post #20252 of 22595 Old 06-01-2014, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I knew someone would do the math ... tongue.gifwink.gif

Seems right to me except in my case, the 215RT's are full range plus LFE and so the power requirements are much greater than a bass managed system with separate powered subwoofers.

There is a good reason Jeff and Mark Seaton use 2000-4000 watt amps on their powered subs. The point may be moot as it's seems I am destined to be alone on Full Range plus LFE Island ... smile.gif
I think Mark uses pretty high power in his cat12's too which are mainly designed for use with subs. There is a very good reason for that and it is crest factor.

BTW, 20dB example is pretty good for music but many movies have 30dB peaks.

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post #20253 of 22595 Old 06-01-2014, 10:02 AM
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Hold on now, people were giving me crap for going back to my avr to power my 212's and that was only powering down to 80hz.

Now we are saying that 100 watts per channel is fine for a speaker that needs 4 times the power to get to the same spl's as the 212's AND it has to have juice all the way down below 20hz? I call shenanigans!! biggrin.gif
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post #20254 of 22595 Old 06-01-2014, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I knew someone would do the math ... tongue.gifwink.gif

Seems right to me except in my case, the 215RT's are full range plus LFE and so the power requirements are much greater than a bass managed system with separate powered subwoofers.

There is a good reason Jeff and Mark Seaton use 2000-4000 watt amps on their powered subs. The point may be moot as it's seems I am destined to be alone on Full Range plus LFE Island ... smile.gif

I plan on trying my configuration 3 different ways

215RT's in full range with LFE, no subs
215RT's in full range with Subs doing LFE
215RT's in full range with LFE and Subs running LFE.

Will report back once testing is complete. Will probably be July 15th ish.

The processor you are using costs to much for my blood, but I will be using the outlaw audio ICBM to mix the LFE into the mains.

So I won't be able to use the Center 215RT as a LFE channel, but I will be able to use the Left and Right channel as LFE.
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post #20255 of 22595 Old 06-01-2014, 02:24 PM
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With the influx of used 212's on the market I have been rethinking on ordering the 228's for myself. I basically watch movie and shows and thought the common consensus of the 228's were more for movies and 212's were better musically. So what am I missing here? Or is it just a matter of room size and personal taste? I by no means have a large room with the dims of 13x16x8 and is a living room besides. So I had been leaning toward the 228's because of the smaller size but I am not against the larger 212's if imaging won't be overwhelming in the room. What I mean is my L<--7.5ft--->R distance is pretty narrow for my thought on the 212's. Then throw in a center channel and I would think the imaging would smear between L/C/R together.
Maybe I am overthinking all this but thought you guys would know better than I.
Thanks

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post #20256 of 22595 Old 06-01-2014, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Hold on now, people were giving me crap for going back to my avr to power my 212's and that was only powering down to 80hz.

Now we are saying that 100 watts per channel is fine for a speaker that needs 4 times the power to get to the same spl's as the 212's AND it has to have juice all the way down below 20hz? I call shenanigans!! biggrin.gif
I'm definitely not saying that, but I do think Rob is powering them to their potential with 2000 watts per channel.

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post #20257 of 22595 Old 06-01-2014, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by BCRSS View Post

With the influx of used 212's on the market I have been rethinking on ordering the 228's for myself. I basically watch movie and shows and thought the common consensus of the 228's were more for movies and 212's were better musically. So what am I missing here? Or is it just a matter of room size and personal taste? I by no means have a large room with the dims of 13x16x8 and is a living room besides. So I had been leaning toward the 228's because of the smaller size but I am not against the larger 212's if imaging won't be overwhelming in the room. What I mean is my L<--7.5ft--->R distance is pretty narrow for my thought on the 212's. Then throw in a center channel and I would think the imaging would smear between L/C/R together.
Maybe I am overthinking all this but thought you guys would know better than I.
Thanks
for that room I vote for the 228HT.

Pre-Pro: Emotiva UMC-1, DSP: Mini DSP 2x4 balanced
Amplifier: Sunfire TGA7400, Lab Gruppen FP10000Q
Speakers: JTR Noesis 212HT (LCR), JTR Slant 8's (surrounds), 3 Orbit Shifter LFU's
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post #20258 of 22595 Old 06-01-2014, 02:44 PM
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Woah cool!!! Looks like my Pioneer Elite avr will route the LFE to the Mains! Now, it only works if the subs are off, when I turn on the subs in the avr menu and mute the signal to the subs on my minidsp then there is no sound coming from the mains anymore.

However like I said if I select "No" for subwoofer in the Pioneer Elite avr menu then I do indeed hear the LFE tone in the left and right main speakers. It's not very loud, which makes sense because the 212's only go to 60hz.

Here is the link for the Dolby Digital Plus Test Tones from the JTR forum and a link straight to the downloads as well:

http://jtrspeakers.websitetoolbox.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1282244630&postcount=9

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/consumer/technology/home-theater/dolby-digital-plus-download.html


Scroll down to the "channel check" downloads.


I'm curious if most avr's will do what mine is doing. If anyone else tries it post your results.


I just unhooked the left and right mains and tried it again to see if the LFE tone would play through the center (made sure to change center channel to large). No go for the center channel.
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post #20259 of 22595 Old 06-01-2014, 03:31 PM
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post #20260 of 22595 Old 06-01-2014, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Woah cool!!! Looks like my Pioneer Elite avr will route the LFE to the Mains! Now, it only works if the subs are off, when I turn on the subs in the avr menu and mute the signal to the subs on my minidsp then there is no sound coming from the mains anymore.

However like I said if I select "No" for subwoofer in the Pioneer Elite avr menu then I do indeed hear the LFE tone in the left and right main speakers. It's not very loud, which makes sense because the 212's only go to 60hz.

Here is the link for the Dolby Digital Plus Test Tones from the JTR forum and a link straight to the downloads as well:

http://jtrspeakers.websitetoolbox.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1282244630&postcount=9

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/consumer/technology/home-theater/dolby-digital-plus-download.html


Scroll down to the "channel check" downloads.


I'm curious if most avr's will do what mine is doing. If anyone else tries it post your results.


I just unhooked the left and right mains and tried it again to see if the LFE tone would play through the center (made sure to change center channel to large). No go for the center channel.

carp.. What Elite avr you have? I wonder if my avr will do this too.. I have a 5 year old sc-09tx.
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post #20261 of 22595 Old 06-01-2014, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Most avrs today do this.


I didn't know one way or the other before trying this, but I stumbled across this thread and Jeff says most avr's do not do this on post #6:

http://jtrspeakers.websitetoolbox.com/post/which-prepro-and-receivers-can-route-lfe-to-the-mains-6834873?pid=1283016332#post1283016332
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post #20262 of 22595 Old 06-01-2014, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by rhed View Post

carp.. What Elite avr you have? I wonder if my avr will do this too.. I have a 5 year old sc-09tx.


I have the vsx-53.
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post #20263 of 22595 Old 06-01-2014, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by rhed View Post

carp.. What Elite avr you have? I wonder if my avr will do this too.. I have a 5 year old sc-09tx.

Funny.. I ask this question before in the MCACC thread and forgot I did. And yes, it will route all the lfe to the mains if I select no for subs and large for mains. It will also do both lfe to subs and mains if yes for subs is selected and large for mains. But, I guess it wouldn't matter because I want to convert to balance outs. I'm just stuck between the Onkyo and Marantz preamp. I'm also concern about xt32 taming the bass too much. Unlike MCACC where you can talor the bass to ones taste. Is this possible with xt32?.
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post #20264 of 22595 Old 06-01-2014, 06:34 PM
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post #20265 of 22595 Old 06-01-2014, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

I plan on trying my configuration 3 different ways

215RT's in full range with LFE, no subs
215RT's in full range with Subs doing LFE
215RT's in full range with LFE and Subs running LFE.

Will report back once testing is complete. Will probably be July 15th ish.

The processor you are using costs to much for my blood, but I will be using the outlaw audio ICBM to mix the LFE into the mains.

So I won't be able to use the Center 215RT as a LFE channel, but I will be able to use the Left and Right channel as LFE.

Actually, I paid under $400 for the Rane on Ebay (plus another $100 for the euroblock connectors and cables). They do come up occasionally so you might keep an eye out. The main issues with the Rane are that it is discontinued and needs to run XP (or Win 7 in XP mode) to make the very cool Dragnet software work. Took Jeff and I about half a day to get that figured out but for a $3K processor it was a good deal. It has run flawlessly since installation and is very easy to tweak if you are so inclined.

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post #20266 of 22595 Old 06-01-2014, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BCRSS View Post

With the influx of used 212's on the market I have been rethinking on ordering the 228's for myself. I basically watch movie and shows and thought the common consensus of the 228's were more for movies and 212's were better musically. So what am I missing here? Or is it just a matter of room size and personal taste? I by no means have a large room with the dims of 13x16x8 and is a living room besides. So I had been leaning toward the 228's because of the smaller size but I am not against the larger 212's if imaging won't be overwhelming in the room. What I mean is my L<--7.5ft--->R distance is pretty narrow for my thought on the 212's. Then throw in a center channel and I would think the imaging would smear between L/C/R together.
Maybe I am overthinking all this but thought you guys would know better than I.
Thanks

My room is about that size with it being 13' wide or so and I have 212s for LCR. They image well and most of the material for movies seems to come from the center with the LR adding fill. I don't feel like the 212s are too much speaker although their size stands out. I'm sure the 228s would do well enough...like a lot of things, you spend more for much smaller incremental improvements. I haven't heard the 228s so I can't give any comparison there.
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post #20267 of 22595 Old 06-01-2014, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Woah cool!!! Looks like my Pioneer Elite avr will route the LFE to the Mains! Now, it only works if the subs are off, when I turn on the subs in the avr menu and mute the signal to the subs on my minidsp then there is no sound coming from the mains anymore.

However like I said if I select "No" for subwoofer in the Pioneer Elite avr menu then I do indeed hear the LFE tone in the left and right main speakers. It's not very loud, which makes sense because the 212's only go to 60hz.

Here is the link for the Dolby Digital Plus Test Tones from the JTR forum and a link straight to the downloads as well:

http://jtrspeakers.websitetoolbox.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1282244630&postcount=9

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/consumer/technology/home-theater/dolby-digital-plus-download.html


Scroll down to the "channel check" downloads.


I'm curious if most avr's will do what mine is doing. If anyone else tries it post your results.


I just unhooked the left and right mains and tried it again to see if the LFE tone would play through the center (made sure to change center channel to large). No go for the center channel.

Being the one who posted that, I can confirm that ALL receivers that follow the Dolby Surround spec will operate similarly.
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post #20268 of 22595 Old 06-01-2014, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssb201 View Post

Being the one who posted that, I can confirm that ALL receivers that follow the Dolby Surround spec will operate similarly.


Cool, thanks I kind of always figured it was this way, but with the 215's coming out all the talk was about not being able to get the LFE into the mains.

I guess now my issue will be not being able to get the LFE into the mains and subs at the same time. Who knows if I will run the system this way, but it would be nice to have as an option.
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post #20269 of 22595 Old 06-01-2014, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post

There should be no reason why 100W can't drive them to reference levels. wink.gif

Theoretical reference level peaks are 105dBSPL at the listening position for each main channel on a properly calibrated system. Assuming your HT room is fairly well treated, your looking at around 8dBSPL attenuation for distance to the 15.5ft listening position. This means the speaker will need to produce 113dBSPL at 1m from the baffle for those reference level peaks.

Therefore, on average the 95dB/1W/1m sensitive 215RT's will require 18dB of gain from the amp or (Crown calculator) 63W - call it 70W, to produce reference level peaks at your listening position. Note too that this is for program peaks, and is still only half the continuous rated power of your AVR. Bass management to subs will further reduce the power demand on the AVR's amps. At reference, general program material say 20dB below the peaks will call for 0.7W from the amp in your situation.

The Denon 4311CI is a seriously good, 4Ω rated AVR. It would capably handle the 215RT's at reference level on it's own. Your Parasound is the cherry on top.
Bragging rights. cool.gif

Or... the ability to play at +17dB master volume (the max.) if the urge strikes you. biggrin.gif

For someone who prefers simplicity it's nice to hear that the 215s can be powered by just a receiver.
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post #20270 of 22595 Old 06-01-2014, 11:10 PM
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Make sure you guys aren't confusing lfe with bass frquencies. Does it truly reroute lfe (.1 channel - dedicated subwoofer channel) or just retain bass frquencies that are usually crossed over to the subwoofer?

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post #20271 of 22595 Old 06-02-2014, 04:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Make sure you guys aren't confusing lfe with bass frquencies. Does it truly reroute lfe (.1 channel - dedicated subwoofer channel) or just retain bass frquencies that are usually crossed over to the subwoofer?

It will truly route LFE.
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post #20272 of 22595 Old 06-02-2014, 04:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Cool, thanks I kind of always figured it was this way, but with the 215's coming out all the talk was about not being able to get the LFE into the mains.

I guess now my issue will be not being able to get the LFE into the mains and subs at the same time. Who knows if I will run the system this way, but it would be nice to have as an option.


The second part is what people are worried about.

Getting LFE to mains with no Sub is easy. The hard part is getting LFE to the mains & the external subs. wink.gif
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post #20273 of 22595 Old 06-02-2014, 04:31 AM
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My denon clearly states in the menu , "mains&lfe setting. To me that means main speakers are set to full range and the bass (lfe) also to the mains. eek.gif
What gives?
If I set mine like said, the denon sends a full range signal to the mains while also sending the lfe signal to the mains and subs!
It should work just fine, check out the PDF on the denon website if you don't have a denon .
Or am I missing something or confusing the meaning?





PeterV
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post #20274 of 22595 Old 06-02-2014, 05:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonleepenn View Post

My denon clearly states in the menu , "mains&lfe setting. To me that means main speakers are set to full range and the bass (lfe) also to the mains. eek.gif
What gives?
If I set mine like said, the denon sends a full range signal to the mains while also sending the lfe signal to the mains and subs!
It should work just fine, check out the PDF on the denon website if you don't have a denon .
Or am I missing something or confusing the meaning?
PeterV

*I have not tried it so I do not know if the below is 100% true*

Here is my take and understanding of the feature.

That will take bass information from the Main's even in FULL and send to the LFE channel as well.

Not sure what crossover they internally use.

So the mains will play there normal full range and the subs will also play the same information of the mains below a certain crossover. (again I do not know what the crossover is internal to the Denon)

But it would not take LFE and route to mains as well as Subs.


* Again this is my understanding of this feature, and is described this way in the manual.*
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post #20275 of 22595 Old 06-02-2014, 05:50 AM
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^^^ I agree with this statement.

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post #20276 of 22595 Old 06-02-2014, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonleepenn View Post

My denon clearly states in the menu , "mains&lfe setting. To me that means main speakers are set to full range and the bass (lfe) also to the mains. eek.gif
What gives?
If I set mine like said, the denon sends a full range signal to the mains while also sending the lfe signal to the mains and subs!
It should work just fine, check out the PDF on the denon website if you don't have a denon .
Or am I missing something or confusing the meaning?

PeterV

I think that is correct Peter. In my case, I am no longer using separate subs and needed to route the LFE to the Left, Center and Right channels. No way to do that with an AVR. Seems I'm alone in this method due to my preference for anemic bass ... wink.gif

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post #20277 of 22595 Old 06-02-2014, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I think that is correct Peter. In my case, I am no longer using separate subs and needed to route the LFE to the Left, Center and Right channels. No way to do that with an AVR. Seems I'm alone in this method due to my preference for anemic bass ... wink.gif

if you want really anemic bass you can get an AVR and sent the LFE to just the two front Left and Right Channels. No center though. Then you can get rid of the Rane... smile.gif haha.
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post #20278 of 22595 Old 06-02-2014, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

if you want really anemic bass you can get an AVR and sent the LFE to just the two front Left and Right Channels. No center though. Then you can get rid of the Rane... smile.gif haha.

Now you're talking, sell the Rane, the LG and Crowns and drive it all off of a mid level AVR.

Anemic bass nirvana ... cool.gif

HToM

"Well, la di fricken da."!
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post #20279 of 22595 Old 06-02-2014, 08:28 AM
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Funny thing is you'll probably still have more and better bass then 99% of setups out there... smile.gif

I can't wait to hear them tonight.
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post #20280 of 22595 Old 06-02-2014, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I think that is correct Peter. In my case, I am no longer using separate subs and needed to route the LFE to the Left, Center and Right channels. No way to do that with an AVR. Seems I'm alone in this method due to my preference for anemic bass ... wink.gif

Well, at least you can finally admit it cool.gif

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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