Official JTR speaker thread - Page 676 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #20251 of 31100 Old 06-01-2014, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

I plan on trying my configuration 3 different ways

215RT's in full range with LFE, no subs
215RT's in full range with Subs doing LFE
215RT's in full range with LFE and Subs running LFE.

Will report back once testing is complete. Will probably be July 15th ish.

The processor you are using costs to much for my blood, but I will be using the outlaw audio ICBM to mix the LFE into the mains.

So I won't be able to use the Center 215RT as a LFE channel, but I will be able to use the Left and Right channel as LFE.

Actually, I paid under $400 for the Rane on Ebay (plus another $100 for the euroblock connectors and cables). They do come up occasionally so you might keep an eye out. The main issues with the Rane are that it is discontinued and needs to run XP (or Win 7 in XP mode) to make the very cool Dragnet software work. Took Jeff and I about half a day to get that figured out but for a $3K processor it was a good deal. It has run flawlessly since installation and is very easy to tweak if you are so inclined.

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post #20252 of 31100 Old 06-01-2014, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by BCRSS View Post

With the influx of used 212's on the market I have been rethinking on ordering the 228's for myself. I basically watch movie and shows and thought the common consensus of the 228's were more for movies and 212's were better musically. So what am I missing here? Or is it just a matter of room size and personal taste? I by no means have a large room with the dims of 13x16x8 and is a living room besides. So I had been leaning toward the 228's because of the smaller size but I am not against the larger 212's if imaging won't be overwhelming in the room. What I mean is my L<--7.5ft--->R distance is pretty narrow for my thought on the 212's. Then throw in a center channel and I would think the imaging would smear between L/C/R together.
Maybe I am overthinking all this but thought you guys would know better than I.
Thanks

My room is about that size with it being 13' wide or so and I have 212s for LCR. They image well and most of the material for movies seems to come from the center with the LR adding fill. I don't feel like the 212s are too much speaker although their size stands out. I'm sure the 228s would do well enough...like a lot of things, you spend more for much smaller incremental improvements. I haven't heard the 228s so I can't give any comparison there.

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post #20253 of 31100 Old 06-01-2014, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

Woah cool!!! Looks like my Pioneer Elite avr will route the LFE to the Mains! Now, it only works if the subs are off, when I turn on the subs in the avr menu and mute the signal to the subs on my minidsp then there is no sound coming from the mains anymore.

However like I said if I select "No" for subwoofer in the Pioneer Elite avr menu then I do indeed hear the LFE tone in the left and right main speakers. It's not very loud, which makes sense because the 212's only go to 60hz.

Here is the link for the Dolby Digital Plus Test Tones from the JTR forum and a link straight to the downloads as well:

http://jtrspeakers.websitetoolbox.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1282244630&postcount=9

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/consumer/technology/home-theater/dolby-digital-plus-download.html


Scroll down to the "channel check" downloads.


I'm curious if most avr's will do what mine is doing. If anyone else tries it post your results.


I just unhooked the left and right mains and tried it again to see if the LFE tone would play through the center (made sure to change center channel to large). No go for the center channel.

Being the one who posted that, I can confirm that ALL receivers that follow the Dolby Surround spec will operate similarly.
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post #20254 of 31100 Old 06-01-2014, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by ssb201 View Post

Being the one who posted that, I can confirm that ALL receivers that follow the Dolby Surround spec will operate similarly.


Cool, thanks I kind of always figured it was this way, but with the 215's coming out all the talk was about not being able to get the LFE into the mains.

I guess now my issue will be not being able to get the LFE into the mains and subs at the same time. Who knows if I will run the system this way, but it would be nice to have as an option.
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post #20255 of 31100 Old 06-01-2014, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post

There should be no reason why 100W can't drive them to reference levels. wink.gif

Theoretical reference level peaks are 105dBSPL at the listening position for each main channel on a properly calibrated system. Assuming your HT room is fairly well treated, your looking at around 8dBSPL attenuation for distance to the 15.5ft listening position. This means the speaker will need to produce 113dBSPL at 1m from the baffle for those reference level peaks.

Therefore, on average the 95dB/1W/1m sensitive 215RT's will require 18dB of gain from the amp or (Crown calculator) 63W - call it 70W, to produce reference level peaks at your listening position. Note too that this is for program peaks, and is still only half the continuous rated power of your AVR. Bass management to subs will further reduce the power demand on the AVR's amps. At reference, general program material say 20dB below the peaks will call for 0.7W from the amp in your situation.

The Denon 4311CI is a seriously good, 4Ω rated AVR. It would capably handle the 215RT's at reference level on it's own. Your Parasound is the cherry on top.
Bragging rights. cool.gif

Or... the ability to play at +17dB master volume (the max.) if the urge strikes you. biggrin.gif

For someone who prefers simplicity it's nice to hear that the 215s can be powered by just a receiver.
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post #20256 of 31100 Old 06-01-2014, 11:10 PM
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Make sure you guys aren't confusing lfe with bass frquencies. Does it truly reroute lfe (.1 channel - dedicated subwoofer channel) or just retain bass frquencies that are usually crossed over to the subwoofer?

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post #20257 of 31100 Old 06-02-2014, 04:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Make sure you guys aren't confusing lfe with bass frquencies. Does it truly reroute lfe (.1 channel - dedicated subwoofer channel) or just retain bass frquencies that are usually crossed over to the subwoofer?

It will truly route LFE.
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post #20258 of 31100 Old 06-02-2014, 04:07 AM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

Cool, thanks I kind of always figured it was this way, but with the 215's coming out all the talk was about not being able to get the LFE into the mains.

I guess now my issue will be not being able to get the LFE into the mains and subs at the same time. Who knows if I will run the system this way, but it would be nice to have as an option.


The second part is what people are worried about.

Getting LFE to mains with no Sub is easy. The hard part is getting LFE to the mains & the external subs. wink.gif
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post #20259 of 31100 Old 06-02-2014, 04:31 AM
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My denon clearly states in the menu , "mains&lfe setting. To me that means main speakers are set to full range and the bass (lfe) also to the mains. eek.gif
What gives?
If I set mine like said, the denon sends a full range signal to the mains while also sending the lfe signal to the mains and subs!
It should work just fine, check out the PDF on the denon website if you don't have a denon .
Or am I missing something or confusing the meaning?





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post #20260 of 31100 Old 06-02-2014, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by dragonleepenn View Post

My denon clearly states in the menu , "mains&lfe setting. To me that means main speakers are set to full range and the bass (lfe) also to the mains. eek.gif
What gives?
If I set mine like said, the denon sends a full range signal to the mains while also sending the lfe signal to the mains and subs!
It should work just fine, check out the PDF on the denon website if you don't have a denon .
Or am I missing something or confusing the meaning?
PeterV

*I have not tried it so I do not know if the below is 100% true*

Here is my take and understanding of the feature.

That will take bass information from the Main's even in FULL and send to the LFE channel as well.

Not sure what crossover they internally use.

So the mains will play there normal full range and the subs will also play the same information of the mains below a certain crossover. (again I do not know what the crossover is internal to the Denon)

But it would not take LFE and route to mains as well as Subs.


* Again this is my understanding of this feature, and is described this way in the manual.*
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post #20261 of 31100 Old 06-02-2014, 05:50 AM
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^^^ I agree with this statement.
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post #20262 of 31100 Old 06-02-2014, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by dragonleepenn View Post

My denon clearly states in the menu , "mains&lfe setting. To me that means main speakers are set to full range and the bass (lfe) also to the mains. eek.gif
What gives?
If I set mine like said, the denon sends a full range signal to the mains while also sending the lfe signal to the mains and subs!
It should work just fine, check out the PDF on the denon website if you don't have a denon .
Or am I missing something or confusing the meaning?

PeterV

I think that is correct Peter. In my case, I am no longer using separate subs and needed to route the LFE to the Left, Center and Right channels. No way to do that with an AVR. Seems I'm alone in this method due to my preference for anemic bass ... wink.gif

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post #20263 of 31100 Old 06-02-2014, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I think that is correct Peter. In my case, I am no longer using separate subs and needed to route the LFE to the Left, Center and Right channels. No way to do that with an AVR. Seems I'm alone in this method due to my preference for anemic bass ... wink.gif

if you want really anemic bass you can get an AVR and sent the LFE to just the two front Left and Right Channels. No center though. Then you can get rid of the Rane... smile.gif haha.
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post #20264 of 31100 Old 06-02-2014, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

if you want really anemic bass you can get an AVR and sent the LFE to just the two front Left and Right Channels. No center though. Then you can get rid of the Rane... smile.gif haha.

Now you're talking, sell the Rane, the LG and Crowns and drive it all off of a mid level AVR.

Anemic bass nirvana ... cool.gif

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post #20265 of 31100 Old 06-02-2014, 08:28 AM
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Funny thing is you'll probably still have more and better bass then 99% of setups out there... smile.gif

I can't wait to hear them tonight.
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post #20266 of 31100 Old 06-02-2014, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I think that is correct Peter. In my case, I am no longer using separate subs and needed to route the LFE to the Left, Center and Right channels. No way to do that with an AVR. Seems I'm alone in this method due to my preference for anemic bass ... wink.gif

Well, at least you can finally admit it cool.gif

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post #20267 of 31100 Old 06-02-2014, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I think that is correct Peter. In my case, I am no longer using separate subs and needed to route the LFE to the Left, Center and Right channels. No way to do that with an AVR. Seems I'm alone in this method due to my preference for anemic bass ... wink.gif



Hi Rob & all,
I browsed thru the Audyssey FAQ for some clarification regarding lfe& main setting, choosing lfe& main while set to large speaker will send a full range signal to the mains and also send bass,(low freq) to the subs. It may cause some phase issues because the mains low end will not be filtered the same as the subs filters etc.
I say in that case if you want to add a sub to each front channel (LCR ) in order to greate that chest pounding bass at mid-level freq that everyone seems to like .
Just use the subs PEQ , providing it has one and setup the phase on the particular sub. Of course the main subs will have been managed by the recievers sub output and go as low as they are designed to providing your room is up to the task..
This May or may not be the best way however an option if so desired. In Robs case simply no subs on the chain and use of the full range setting in large speaker setting would work for those who just want to go with the avr amps, or seperate amps.
However the way Rob is doing it I'm sure is the best method and having greater control over crossover settings. smile.gif



PeterV
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post #20268 of 31100 Old 06-02-2014, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

if you want really anemic bass you can get an AVR and sent the LFE to just the two front Left and Right Channels. No center though. Then you can get rid of the Rane... smile.gif haha.

A simple full-range setup like RMK's with just 215s and no subs is the easiest one for a standard AVR to handle. Just set L/R/C to FULL and sub to off, everything will just work- bass management, delay, room correction, etc. Note: Some receivers will route the low frequencies for the surrounds to the Mains as well. If you do not want this, the simple solution will not work.

As you said above, integrating subs is much more challenging. It can be done in some situations without much fuss/cost- subwoofer has high-level inputs and is at the same distance as the speaker that channel is attached to (assumes you do not mind the sub reproducing the channels low freq component as well as LFE). Otherwise the AVR will not be able to properly set delays, equalization will be off between channel low freq and LFE, etc. if your sub has bass management and processing built-in it may be possible, but anything more complicated you are better off getting an outboard DSP to handle mixing/processing.
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post #20269 of 31100 Old 06-02-2014, 11:30 AM
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Will AVR's send LFE to the CENTER channel if sub is set to no and center channel set to large/full?

I thought they would only do it to the Left and Right Channel.
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post #20270 of 31100 Old 06-02-2014, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Will AVR's send LFE to the CENTER channel if sub is set to no and center channel set to large/full?

I thought they would only do it to the Left and Right Channel.

Most will, but it is not guaranteed as it is not part of the DD spec. It worked on both of my Onkyo when tested.
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post #20271 of 31100 Old 06-02-2014, 12:03 PM
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I think Onkyo may be the only company to do that.

I'm not sure Denon's will. but I will be trying it to find out... smile.gif
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post #20272 of 31100 Old 06-02-2014, 01:37 PM
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I will be heading out in 23 min... We shall see if I feel the same about them (JTR 215RT's) as most of you do on this forum.

If so, I will have ordered 3 of them. wink.gif
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post #20273 of 31100 Old 06-02-2014, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Will AVR's send LFE to the CENTER channel if sub is set to no and center channel set to large/full?

I thought they would only do it to the Left and Right Channel.


My Pioneer Elite will not, it only sent the LFE to the mains with the subs off and that's it.
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post #20274 of 31100 Old 06-02-2014, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

I will be heading out in 23 min... We shall see if I feel the same about them (JTR 215RT's) as most of you do on this forum.

If so, I will have ordered 3 of them. wink.gif


Jealous!! Can't wait to see what you think!
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post #20275 of 31100 Old 06-02-2014, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Will AVR's send LFE to the CENTER channel if sub is set to no and center channel set to large/full?

I thought they would only do it to the Left and Right Channel.


My Pioneer Elite will not, it only sent the LFE to the mains with the subs off and that's it.

Sounds pretty ideal if you ask me - what with you wanting 215RT for left and right and your 212HT retained for center channel purposes.

cool.gif

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post #20276 of 31100 Old 06-02-2014, 03:25 PM
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Sounds pretty ideal if you ask me - what with you wanting 215RT for left and right and your 212HT retained for center channel purposes.

cool.gif


Yep and I bet that's how I'll do music pretty much 100% of the time. However, for movies I want to experiment with subs and mains cranking out the LFE together. I have a feeling I'll end up crossing the speakers at 50hz for movies (maybe lower but my avr won't go any lower and I'm waiting for ATMOS until I get a new avr).
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post #20277 of 31100 Old 06-02-2014, 03:36 PM
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My Onkyo PR-SC5508 does 5 hz increments down to 40hz and then full band (full range)

If we are still talking rerouting LFE channel content - then traditional music won't have "LFE content". Only Dolby Digital or DTS recorded tracks will have the .1 channel content. If just speaking of playing the 215RT full range. Heck yes. I think that'll be fantastic.


One question. You had trouble matching my ported Captivators to your sealed subs right? My ported Captivators are tuned to 20hz.
These 215RT are tuned to 18hz. That 2hz difference is pretty much immaterial.

Have you considered you may have the same trouble integrating ported 215RT with your eight sealed SI subs?

I hate to be debbie downer - - - but just something to make sure you considered - I just thought of it a couple nights back and meant to ask.




I still wonder if an analog HPF would have allowed you integrate the caps with your sealed subs with no problem - vs. the digital HPF on the minidsp that you used? As you recall - my analog Behringer MIC 2200 HPF didn't seem to cause any problems integrating the caps with four of your sealed SI in my old room.

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post #20278 of 31100 Old 06-02-2014, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

My Onkyo PR-SC5508 does 5 hz increments down to 40hz and then full band (full range)

If we are still talking rerouting LFE channel content - then traditional music won't have "LFE content". Only Dolby Digital or DTS recorded tracks will have the .1 channel content. If just speaking of playing the 215RT full range. Heck yes. I think that'll be fantastic.


One question. You had trouble matching my ported Captivators to your sealed subs right? My ported Captivators are tuned to 20hz.
These 215RT are tuned to 18hz. That 2hz difference is pretty much immaterial.

Have you considered you may have the same trouble integrating ported 215RT with your eight sealed SI subs?

I hate to be debbie downer - - - but just something to make sure you considered - I just thought of it a couple nights back and meant to ask.




I still wonder if an analog HPF would have allowed you integrate the caps with your sealed subs with no problem - vs. the digital HPF on the minidsp that you used? As you recall - my analog Behringer MIC 2200 HPF didn't seem to cause any problems integrating the caps with four of your sealed SI in my old room.




I won't have to use a HPF if I end up crossing them at 50hz for movies and just running them full range for movies but yeah great points, lots to think about... I think you are right about that analog HPF since it worked great in your room mixing ported and sealed.
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post #20279 of 31100 Old 06-02-2014, 05:02 PM
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blah, mixing ported and sealed isn't that big of an issue. You could use a minidsp and adjust the timing and it should't be that hard. May take a bit of time. Heck, even audyssey will do a half decent job of combining both subs if you had 2 outs and XT32. Just tweak from there and bingo!

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post #20280 of 31100 Old 06-02-2014, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Funny thing is you'll probably still have more and better bass then 99% of setups out there... smile.gif

I can't wait to hear them tonight.

Make that 5 nines and you would be closer to the truth and I would say that number would be limited to dedicated HT rooms only. Most people with dedicated HT's don't have 6 15" woofers powered like mine are. Of course there are a number of bass fiends here who must have more ... and they do tongue.gifwink.gif

HToM Extraordinary Evolution

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