Official JTR speaker thread - Page 679 - AVS Forum
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post #20341 of 24778 Old 06-04-2014, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post

Just watched the helicopter scene at around the 20-22 minute mark at -10 WOW!!!

Also watched the first two gunshots of chapter 10 at reference - amazing!!! I can't wait to watch this on the weekend.
It only gets better.
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post #20342 of 24778 Old 06-04-2014, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post


Bottom line, it's certainly possible to get good results mixing ported and sealed subs. However, you need to either get very lucky, or you really need to know what you're doing, and you need measurement equipment so you can "see" the response to be able to optimize it.
How do you plan to send the LFE channel to the 215's if you're using subwoofers? AFAIK, there are only a few, very expensive processors that might allow re-direction of the LFE channel to the mains in addition to the subs. I don't know if the Rane processor RMK uses can do it, but I suppose it's possible.

Just sayin'...

Craig

Rane RPM88 Mutiprocessor is capable of much more that just mixing (which you call re-direction) and channel input mixing is a common practice in the Pro Audio world. There are many inexpensive devices that can do this mixing. These devices are full blown DSP's with simple drag and drop interfaces.





In fact and as was demonstrated by desertdome at my recent GTG, the $50 JRiver software when combined with an HTPC can do nearly everything the Rane can do. The HTPC is the future of Home Theater and everyone serious about Home Theater should be looking at this as standalone players will be obsolete soon. smile.gif

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post #20343 of 24778 Old 06-04-2014, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

4. Outlaw Audio ICBM can combine LFE into the main left and right channel (If I remember correctly I was using it for this function over 8 years ago.)
According to the manual, you can only redirect bass from other speakers to the Left and Right speaker. You can't redirect the LFE to the Left and Right.

I heard the LFE from RMK's front three 215RT's so I understand the benefits of routing that way. I wouldn't recommend it to someone with two 215RT's. If you use the HTPC as a source for Blu-ray, the routing can be done easily with JRiver Media Center.
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post #20344 of 24778 Old 06-04-2014, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

rhed, here's one place you can buy them from. smile.gif

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/561756-REG/Hosa_Technology_PHX_206F_BULK_PHX_206F_BULK_Female_Phoenix_to.html

Yeah but with a 6" limit. I needed longer ones for the Rane and made some up myself after buying the Phoenix Euroblock connectors. Blue Jeans cables will make nice ones for a price ... smile.gif

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post #20345 of 24778 Old 06-04-2014, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

According to the manual, you can only redirect bass from other speakers to the Left and Right speaker. You can't redirect the LFE to the Left and Right.

I heard the LFE from RMK's front three 215RT's so I understand the benefits of routing that way. I wouldn't recommend it to someone with two 215RT's. If you use the HTPC as a source for Blu-ray, the routing can be done easily with JRiver Media Center.

I'm almost positive it works, even though not written in the manual.

This was back when I was using all Analog connections for 5.1 DVD-AUDIO and Super Audio CD.

I never used a Sub, and had the ICBM using the recombine switch to route the LFE to the mains.

Tested and verified via DTS channel tests, and Dolby Digital channel tests.
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post #20346 of 24778 Old 06-04-2014, 08:37 AM
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Can someone please tell me a little more about a HTPC? I am sort of a dinosaur when it comes to some of this stuff as I love my Blu Ray's and player. Will an HTPC give you the same quality as my oppo's playback? I have been interested in this for a long time, but I have my hands so full right now, I just have not been able to get there yet and being a sound guy, I was not sure if this would reduce my sound quality. I'm not a computer guy, that is why I have mac's tongue.gif However, when my room is finished, I would like to look more into a HTPC.
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post #20347 of 24778 Old 06-04-2014, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

First off... WOW, what a post! Thank you.


To answer the question you had to me:

What was the plan to send LFE to the Mains and Subs:

1. Denon 4311CI with 2 LFE outputs
2. First LFE out with Y adaptor to dual Submersive HP's
3. Second LFE out to Outlaw Audio ICBM
4. Outlaw Audio ICBM can combine LFE into the main left and right channel (If I remember correctly I was using it for this function over 8 years ago.)


Placement of my Vandersteens

I had updated that back when we had that discussion

Here was the latest picture:





Three 215RT's across:
Done, Done, and, DONE! wink.gif

Ordered 3 on Monday already.

Please just try the three 215RT's with LFE mixed into the LCR channels. (do you have an HTPC?). This one on ebay has a pre-wired balanced XLR patch panel. Jeff can assist with the initial setup. cool.gif

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post #20348 of 24778 Old 06-04-2014, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post

Can someone please tell me a little more about a HTPC? I am sort of a dinosaur when it comes to some of this stuff as I love my Blu Ray's and player. Will an HTPC give you the same quality as my oppo's playback? I have been interested in this for a long time, but I have my hands so full right now, I just have not been able to get there yet and being a sound guy, I was not sure if this would reduce my sound quality. I'm not a computer guy, that is why I have mac's tongue.gif However, when my room is finished, I would like to look more into a HTPC.

Nyal Mellor will build you one with JRiver preconfigured. Desertdome is someone I would consider expert in most things HTPC and then there is always Assassin PC.

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post #20349 of 24778 Old 06-04-2014, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Yeah but with a 6" limit. I needed longer ones for the Rane and made some up myself after buying the Phoenix Euroblock connectors. Blue Jeans cables will make nice ones for a price ... smile.gif

Why not buy the XLR male to female cables from monoprice and then just take one end of the connector apart? Then from the end you took apart you wire those into the phoenix connector, its pretty simply really.
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post #20350 of 24778 Old 06-04-2014, 08:47 AM
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Craig,
Best post of the week. +10!

Close your eyes and hear the truth!
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post #20351 of 24778 Old 06-04-2014, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhed View Post

What happens when you set the mains to large but still have a Xover say 60hz ?
If you set the mains to Large, you don't have a crossover engaged. The Large setting basically means the crossover is disengaged and the speakers are sent a full range signal.

Craig

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post #20352 of 24778 Old 06-04-2014, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Yeah but with a 6" limit. I needed longer ones for the Rane and made some up myself after buying the Phoenix Euroblock connectors. Blue Jeans cables will make nice ones for a price ... smile.gif
Didn't know blue jeans can make those. Thanks RMK.
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post #20353 of 24778 Old 06-04-2014, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

If you set the mains to Large, you don't have a crossover engaged. The Large setting basically means the crossover is disengaged and the speakers are sent a full range signal.

Craig
Ok thanks Craig..
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post #20354 of 24778 Old 06-04-2014, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

First off... WOW, what a post! Thank you.


To answer the question you had to me:

What was the plan to send LFE to the Mains and Subs:

1. Denon 4311CI with 2 LFE outputs
2. First LFE out with Y adaptor to dual Submersive HP's
3. Second LFE out to Outlaw Audio ICBM
4. Outlaw Audio ICBM can combine LFE into the main left and right channel (If I remember correctly I was using it for this function over 8 years ago.)
TBH, I have no familiarity with the ICBM processor or the Rane processor that RMK uses. I can't help you with them.

Rob, what are the connection options on the 215RT's? Do they only have 1 set of speaker level inputs, or can the woofers be connected separately from the CD? IOW, can they be actively bi-amped? Or, are you performing all the mixing/re-directing at line level and then sending each remixed signal to a single amp channel for amplification?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Placement of my Vandersteens

I had updated that back when we had that discussion

Here was the latest picture:

I just skimmed through your build thread last night and didn't see the latest setup. That looks MUCH better! smile.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Three 215RT's across:
Done, Done, and, DONE! wink.gif

Ordered 3 on Monday already.
Excellent!

Craig

Lombardi said it:
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post #20355 of 24778 Old 06-04-2014, 12:10 PM
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Hey boys! Long time no chat! biggrin.gif Been busy putting in 12 hr days building, working on a big time multi million dollar bitcoin operation. Havn't even turned on my system in 5 days eek.gif But it will fund my new Oppo BD player smile.gif and other toys. Ordered the Lone Survivor and it has some good bass that the graphs show way down low.
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post #20356 of 24778 Old 06-04-2014, 01:35 PM
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Question for the group...

Do you think I went a little overboard buying the 215RT's if I plan on using the Seaton Submersive HP's for LFE out?


What do I gain with my purposed setup of:

Three 215RT'S and two Seaton SubMersive HPs

over

Three 212HT's and two Seaton SubMersive HPs

What do I lose:

I know I would have a better 1 watt per DB Sensitivity rating with the 212HT's


I'm trying to make sure my choice of the 215RT's is the better choice for my theater.


Also Craig, I'm not sure I want to believe they "ever" play the same bass information in the mains as the LFE channel...

Because if they did and you setup a crossover on your speakers of lets say 60htz, you would be routing that "same" bass information of your mains into the LFE channel twice, creating a "double" bass effect. I know i'm not wording it correctly, but I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

I could be dead wrong, but I feel if they ever duplicated bass information between the LFE and mains, it would cause the intended sound to be at a much higher level if anyone did setup bass management.


Sorry for all the questions guys, I'm know a lot about Video, but I keep learning more and more about audio each day.
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post #20357 of 24778 Old 06-04-2014, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Question for the group...

Do you think I went a little overboard buying the 215RT's if I plan on using the Seaton Submersive HP's for LFE out?


What do I gain with my purposed setup of:

Three 215RT'S and two Seaton SubMersive HPs

over

Three 212HT's and two Seaton SubMersive HPs

What do I lose:

I know I would have a better 1 watt per DB rating with the 212HT's


I'm trying to make sure my choice of the 215RT's is the better choice for my theater.


Also Craig, I'm not sure I want to believe they "ever" play the same bass information in the mains as the LFE channel...

Because if they did and you setup a crossover on your speakers of lets say 60htz, you would be routing that "same" bass information of your mains into the LFE channel twice, creating a "double" bass effect. I know i'm not wording it correctly, but I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

I could be dead wrong, but I feel if they ever duplicated bass information between the LFE and mains, it would cause the intended sound to be at a much higher level if anyone did bass management.
Honestly I have been weighing this for along time now and I came to the conclusion that for HT and music the 212's are good enough. When I heard N8 say that he still needs subs, I then decided that my subs and 212's are good enough. It's really your wallet, if I was starting from scratch maybe I would get the 215's, but for now I am so happy with my set up. I can also suggest that if you can get to the Savoy theater meet you will be able to hear the 212's and 215's and you can go from there. DLBeck is using the 212's or maybe you know that already. I can also say that you could save ALLOT of money buying Carps 3 212's.
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post #20358 of 24778 Old 06-04-2014, 01:52 PM
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With that, hey n8, you still thinking about keeping the 2242's around at all? Or are they done-done???

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post #20359 of 24778 Old 06-04-2014, 05:19 PM
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The 212HT if crossed at 80hz or above is not going to give up anything the the 215 except the 215 will have a little more directivity, something like 380 vs 300 hz I think. If you are talking two channel then it's going to be in a different universe. For the way I use them I will take the 212 with multiple OS any day. Now having said that there is no down side to the 215 you can do it all if you have mega subs too. (See n8dogg) I think 3 215rt may have more bass than two submersives but only speculating and only if driven with megawatt amp.

Pre-Pro: Emotiva XMC-1, DSP: Mini DSP 2x4 balanced
Amplifier: Sunfire TGA7400, Lab Gruppen FP10000Q
Speakers: JTR Noesis 212HT (LCR), JTR Slant 8's (surrounds), 3 Orbit Shifter LFU's
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post #20360 of 24778 Old 06-04-2014, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post

Now having said that there is no down side to the 215

You will need 4 times the power to get the same output - and that would be with crossing them over at he same frequency as the 212's. With a lower crossover you need even more power.
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post #20361 of 24778 Old 06-04-2014, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post

I think 3 215rt may have more bass than two submersives but only speculating and only if driven with megawatt amp.


I'd like to see a comparison of what kind of bass we are talking about here. My guess a single 215 if driven with 2000 watts would have the same output of a single ported Captivator 2400? What do you guys think?
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post #20362 of 24778 Old 06-04-2014, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

You will need 4 times the power to get the same output - and that would be with crossing them over at he same frequency as the 212's. With a lower crossover you need even more power.


btw, I know you know this lbrown, just in case some people do not.
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post #20363 of 24778 Old 06-04-2014, 05:39 PM
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You are right on Carp and I discussed this with Jeff too. For my goals I dont think the 215 doesn't bring more to the table although I have heard them they were not in my room. They won't fit!!

Pre-Pro: Emotiva XMC-1, DSP: Mini DSP 2x4 balanced
Amplifier: Sunfire TGA7400, Lab Gruppen FP10000Q
Speakers: JTR Noesis 212HT (LCR), JTR Slant 8's (surrounds), 3 Orbit Shifter LFU's
Sources: PS3, HTPC, Dish Network
Projector: Epson 8350
Screen: Seymour XD AT 138" diagonal 16:9
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post #20364 of 24778 Old 06-04-2014, 05:40 PM
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For two channel they will be very very difficult to beat especially if you like loud crystal clear levels

Pre-Pro: Emotiva XMC-1, DSP: Mini DSP 2x4 balanced
Amplifier: Sunfire TGA7400, Lab Gruppen FP10000Q
Speakers: JTR Noesis 212HT (LCR), JTR Slant 8's (surrounds), 3 Orbit Shifter LFU's
Sources: PS3, HTPC, Dish Network
Projector: Epson 8350
Screen: Seymour XD AT 138" diagonal 16:9
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post #20365 of 24778 Old 06-04-2014, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

With that, hey n8, you still thinking about keeping the 2242's around at all? Or are they done-done???

Nope the 2242's sold last Thursday. Though, I still have 12 in storage, they won't be used until my next house.

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #20366 of 24778 Old 06-04-2014, 06:03 PM
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Electric going in the theater tomorrow and we were talking tonight and I decided to add a rear platform and make it a 5 seater. Maybe get the sheet rock started next week. Getting excited now.
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post #20367 of 24778 Old 06-04-2014, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

TBH, I have no familiarity with the ICBM processor or the Rane processor that RMK uses. I can't help you with them.

Rob, what are the connection options on the 215RT's? Do they only have 1 set of speaker level inputs, or can the woofers be connected separately from the CD? IOW, can they be actively bi-amped? Or, are you performing all the mixing/re-directing at line level and then sending each remixed signal to a single amp channel for amplification?
I just skimmed through your build thread last night and didn't see the latest setup. That looks MUCH better! smile.gif
Excellent!

Craig

Standard stuff really. One pair of speaker inputs on the 215RT with internal crossover. The signal chain is HDMI from my source devices to my Integra pre/pro. Balanced ouput from the Integra to the Rane (in the case of the LCR's) where the mixing, PEQ and crossover filters are applied. Then, balanced output to the power amp (Lab Gruppen FP10000Q) and on to the speakers.

I am bypassing the Rane with the surrounds.

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post #20368 of 24778 Old 06-04-2014, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Question for the group...

Do you think I went a little overboard buying the 215RT's if I plan on using the Seaton Submersive HP's for LFE out?


What do I gain with my purposed setup of:

Three 215RT'S and two Seaton SubMersive HPs

over

Three 212HT's and two Seaton SubMersive HPs

What do I lose:

I know I would have a better 1 watt per DB Sensitivity rating with the 212HT's


I'm trying to make sure my choice of the 215RT's is the better choice for my theater.


Also Craig, I'm not sure I want to believe they "ever" play the same bass information in the mains as the LFE channel...

Because if they did and you setup a crossover on your speakers of lets say 60htz, you would be routing that "same" bass information of your mains into the LFE channel twice, creating a "double" bass effect. I know i'm not wording it correctly, but I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

I could be dead wrong, but I feel if they ever duplicated bass information between the LFE and mains, it would cause the intended sound to be at a much higher level if anyone did setup bass management.


Sorry for all the questions guys, I'm know a lot about Video, but I keep learning more and more about audio each day.

Right off the top of my head... 6db in sensitivity difference which means a lot more wattage to reference and above. Right now I can play my 212s as loud as u want with just a receiver. I like the simplicity and cost savings of receivers.

Pros. I would think you will get a lot more midbass that subwoofers can't deliver and I am including the orbit shifter. N8 needed a couple of 18inch 2242s mid bass units to get the mid bass he needs and with the 215s that's not going to be needed.
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post #20369 of 24778 Old 06-04-2014, 06:58 PM
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Going to be staying with the 215RT's. I think it will be a pretty ultimate home theater speaker.

Plus I only want to go to reference anyhow.
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post #20370 of 24778 Old 06-04-2014, 07:32 PM
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I really think you won't regret it. You have tons of setup options. Even crossing the 215RTs at 80hz should gain some midbass output over a 212HT. By how much not sure but as they say there is no
replacement for dissplacement. I would not making a crossover decision until they are in room and you do trial and error. Even tho my 2x15 theater mains have in room response below 40hz I still get the best sub to main integration crossed at 80hz with movies.

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