Official JTR speaker thread - Page 679 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #20341 of 30452 Old 06-04-2014, 12:10 PM
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Hey boys! Long time no chat! biggrin.gif Been busy putting in 12 hr days building, working on a big time multi million dollar bitcoin operation. Havn't even turned on my system in 5 days eek.gif But it will fund my new Oppo BD player smile.gif and other toys. Ordered the Lone Survivor and it has some good bass that the graphs show way down low.

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post #20342 of 30452 Old 06-04-2014, 01:35 PM
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Question for the group...

Do you think I went a little overboard buying the 215RT's if I plan on using the Seaton Submersive HP's for LFE out?


What do I gain with my purposed setup of:

Three 215RT'S and two Seaton SubMersive HPs

over

Three 212HT's and two Seaton SubMersive HPs

What do I lose:

I know I would have a better 1 watt per DB Sensitivity rating with the 212HT's


I'm trying to make sure my choice of the 215RT's is the better choice for my theater.


Also Craig, I'm not sure I want to believe they "ever" play the same bass information in the mains as the LFE channel...

Because if they did and you setup a crossover on your speakers of lets say 60htz, you would be routing that "same" bass information of your mains into the LFE channel twice, creating a "double" bass effect. I know i'm not wording it correctly, but I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

I could be dead wrong, but I feel if they ever duplicated bass information between the LFE and mains, it would cause the intended sound to be at a much higher level if anyone did setup bass management.


Sorry for all the questions guys, I'm know a lot about Video, but I keep learning more and more about audio each day.
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post #20343 of 30452 Old 06-04-2014, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Question for the group...

Do you think I went a little overboard buying the 215RT's if I plan on using the Seaton Submersive HP's for LFE out?


What do I gain with my purposed setup of:

Three 215RT'S and two Seaton SubMersive HPs

over

Three 212HT's and two Seaton SubMersive HPs

What do I lose:

I know I would have a better 1 watt per DB rating with the 212HT's


I'm trying to make sure my choice of the 215RT's is the better choice for my theater.


Also Craig, I'm not sure I want to believe they "ever" play the same bass information in the mains as the LFE channel...

Because if they did and you setup a crossover on your speakers of lets say 60htz, you would be routing that "same" bass information of your mains into the LFE channel twice, creating a "double" bass effect. I know i'm not wording it correctly, but I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

I could be dead wrong, but I feel if they ever duplicated bass information between the LFE and mains, it would cause the intended sound to be at a much higher level if anyone did bass management.
Honestly I have been weighing this for along time now and I came to the conclusion that for HT and music the 212's are good enough. When I heard N8 say that he still needs subs, I then decided that my subs and 212's are good enough. It's really your wallet, if I was starting from scratch maybe I would get the 215's, but for now I am so happy with my set up. I can also suggest that if you can get to the Savoy theater meet you will be able to hear the 212's and 215's and you can go from there. DLBeck is using the 212's or maybe you know that already. I can also say that you could save ALLOT of money buying Carps 3 212's.
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post #20344 of 30452 Old 06-04-2014, 01:52 PM
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With that, hey n8, you still thinking about keeping the 2242's around at all? Or are they done-done???

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post #20345 of 30452 Old 06-04-2014, 05:19 PM
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The 212HT if crossed at 80hz or above is not going to give up anything the the 215 except the 215 will have a little more directivity, something like 380 vs 300 hz I think. If you are talking two channel then it's going to be in a different universe. For the way I use them I will take the 212 with multiple OS any day. Now having said that there is no down side to the 215 you can do it all if you have mega subs too. (See n8dogg) I think 3 215rt may have more bass than two submersives but only speculating and only if driven with megawatt amp.

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post #20346 of 30452 Old 06-04-2014, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post

Now having said that there is no down side to the 215

You will need 4 times the power to get the same output - and that would be with crossing them over at he same frequency as the 212's. With a lower crossover you need even more power.
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post #20347 of 30452 Old 06-04-2014, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post

I think 3 215rt may have more bass than two submersives but only speculating and only if driven with megawatt amp.


I'd like to see a comparison of what kind of bass we are talking about here. My guess a single 215 if driven with 2000 watts would have the same output of a single ported Captivator 2400? What do you guys think?
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post #20348 of 30452 Old 06-04-2014, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

You will need 4 times the power to get the same output - and that would be with crossing them over at he same frequency as the 212's. With a lower crossover you need even more power.


btw, I know you know this lbrown, just in case some people do not.
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post #20349 of 30452 Old 06-04-2014, 05:39 PM
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You are right on Carp and I discussed this with Jeff too. For my goals I dont think the 215 doesn't bring more to the table although I have heard them they were not in my room. They won't fit!!

Pre-Pro: Emotiva XMC-1, DSP: Mini DSP 2x4 balanced
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post #20350 of 30452 Old 06-04-2014, 05:40 PM
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For two channel they will be very very difficult to beat especially if you like loud crystal clear levels

Pre-Pro: Emotiva XMC-1, DSP: Mini DSP 2x4 balanced
Amplifier: Sunfire TGA7400, Lab Gruppen FP10000Q
Speakers: JTR Noesis 212HT (LCR), JTR Slant 8's (surrounds), 3 Orbit Shifter LFU's
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post #20351 of 30452 Old 06-04-2014, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

With that, hey n8, you still thinking about keeping the 2242's around at all? Or are they done-done???

Nope the 2242's sold last Thursday. Though, I still have 12 in storage, they won't be used until my next house.

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #20352 of 30452 Old 06-04-2014, 06:03 PM
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Electric going in the theater tomorrow and we were talking tonight and I decided to add a rear platform and make it a 5 seater. Maybe get the sheet rock started next week. Getting excited now.
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post #20353 of 30452 Old 06-04-2014, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

TBH, I have no familiarity with the ICBM processor or the Rane processor that RMK uses. I can't help you with them.

Rob, what are the connection options on the 215RT's? Do they only have 1 set of speaker level inputs, or can the woofers be connected separately from the CD? IOW, can they be actively bi-amped? Or, are you performing all the mixing/re-directing at line level and then sending each remixed signal to a single amp channel for amplification?
I just skimmed through your build thread last night and didn't see the latest setup. That looks MUCH better! smile.gif
Excellent!

Craig

Standard stuff really. One pair of speaker inputs on the 215RT with internal crossover. The signal chain is HDMI from my source devices to my Integra pre/pro. Balanced ouput from the Integra to the Rane (in the case of the LCR's) where the mixing, PEQ and crossover filters are applied. Then, balanced output to the power amp (Lab Gruppen FP10000Q) and on to the speakers.

I am bypassing the Rane with the surrounds.

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post #20354 of 30452 Old 06-04-2014, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Question for the group...

Do you think I went a little overboard buying the 215RT's if I plan on using the Seaton Submersive HP's for LFE out?


What do I gain with my purposed setup of:

Three 215RT'S and two Seaton SubMersive HPs

over

Three 212HT's and two Seaton SubMersive HPs

What do I lose:

I know I would have a better 1 watt per DB Sensitivity rating with the 212HT's


I'm trying to make sure my choice of the 215RT's is the better choice for my theater.


Also Craig, I'm not sure I want to believe they "ever" play the same bass information in the mains as the LFE channel...

Because if they did and you setup a crossover on your speakers of lets say 60htz, you would be routing that "same" bass information of your mains into the LFE channel twice, creating a "double" bass effect. I know i'm not wording it correctly, but I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

I could be dead wrong, but I feel if they ever duplicated bass information between the LFE and mains, it would cause the intended sound to be at a much higher level if anyone did setup bass management.


Sorry for all the questions guys, I'm know a lot about Video, but I keep learning more and more about audio each day.

Right off the top of my head... 6db in sensitivity difference which means a lot more wattage to reference and above. Right now I can play my 212s as loud as u want with just a receiver. I like the simplicity and cost savings of receivers.

Pros. I would think you will get a lot more midbass that subwoofers can't deliver and I am including the orbit shifter. N8 needed a couple of 18inch 2242s mid bass units to get the mid bass he needs and with the 215s that's not going to be needed.
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post #20355 of 30452 Old 06-04-2014, 06:58 PM
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Going to be staying with the 215RT's. I think it will be a pretty ultimate home theater speaker.

Plus I only want to go to reference anyhow.
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post #20356 of 30452 Old 06-04-2014, 07:32 PM
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I really think you won't regret it. You have tons of setup options. Even crossing the 215RTs at 80hz should gain some midbass output over a 212HT. By how much not sure but as they say there is no
replacement for dissplacement. I would not making a crossover decision until they are in room and you do trial and error. Even tho my 2x15 theater mains have in room response below 40hz I still get the best sub to main integration crossed at 80hz with movies.

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post #20357 of 30452 Old 06-04-2014, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Right off the top of my head... 6db in sensitivity difference which means a lot more wattage to reference and above. Right now I can play my 212s as loud as u want with just a receiver. I like the simplicity and cost savings of receivers.

Pros. I would think you will get a lot more midbass that subwoofers can't deliver and I am including the orbit shifter. N8 needed a couple of 18inch 2242s mid bass units to get the mid bass he needs and with the 215s that's not going to be needed.

With the OS / 212HT combo midbass is split between the sub and main. In each respective areas of freq covereage (OS up to 80 and 212HT from 80 up), each will put out more than the 215 so I am not convinced this is true.

I don't think Nate had the 212HT so he might have been slightly donw from 125-60hz on his mains compared to HT version. I noticed this too because I went from T12LP to Noesis 21HT and the 80-150hz jump placed near wall was about 8dB difference between vented vs sealed, in my room.

Pre-Pro: Emotiva XMC-1, DSP: Mini DSP 2x4 balanced
Amplifier: Sunfire TGA7400, Lab Gruppen FP10000Q
Speakers: JTR Noesis 212HT (LCR), JTR Slant 8's (surrounds), 3 Orbit Shifter LFU's
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post #20358 of 30452 Old 06-04-2014, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post

With the OS / 212HT combo midbass is split between the sub and main. In each respective areas of freq covereage (OS up to 80 and 212HT from 80 up), each will put out more than the 215 so I am not convinced this is true.

I don't think Nate had the 212HT so he might have been slightly donw from 125-60hz on his mains compared to HT version. I noticed this too because I went from T12LP to Noesis 21HT and the 80-150hz jump placed near wall was about 8dB difference between vented vs sealed, in my room.

Sorry for the confusion... when I say mid bass I meant 80hz up to 200hz...

That big slap in the face feel..

I believe 6x15inch mid bass drivers on the 215s will do it
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post #20359 of 30452 Old 06-04-2014, 08:08 PM
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Regarding ported vs sealed subs - I thought that the port is tuned to be IN phase at the tuning frequency, which is why you get a boost. My understanding was that the frequency dependent phase differences were actually caused by different high-pass filters. Some subs give you enough flexibility so that you can match the phase between ported and sealed, but you need to understand the hidden filters and EQ or measure to be sure.
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post #20360 of 30452 Old 06-04-2014, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Rane RPM88 Mutiprocessor is capable of much more that just mixing (which you call re-direction) and channel input mixing is a common practice in the Pro Audio world. There are many inexpensive devices that can do this mixing. These devices are full blown DSP's with simple drag and drop interfaces.





In fact and as was demonstrated by desertdome at my recent GTG, the $50 JRiver software when combined with an HTPC can do nearly everything the Rane can do. The HTPC is the future of Home Theater and everyone serious about Home Theater should be looking at this as standalone players will be obsolete soon. smile.gif

Rmk... a few questions.

1. What is the boot up time of the htpc? Do you have to properly start up and shut down between uses? I am asking because a htpc is still mysterious to me. Is it a real pc ?

2. Can you control everything with a remote like you control your blu ray player for instance. Or do you have to sit by a keyboard.

3. How do you connect multiple sources to the htpc and easily switch between them like a receiver does? Or does the receiver pre amp sit between the htpc n the amps?
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post #20361 of 30452 Old 06-04-2014, 10:54 PM
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Rmk... a few questions.

1. What is the boot up time of the htpc? Do you have to properly start up and shut down between uses? I am asking because a htpc is still mysterious to me. Is it a real pc ?

2. Can you control everything with a remote like you control your blu ray player for instance. Or do you have to sit by a keyboard.

3. How do you connect multiple sources to the htpc and easily switch between them like a receiver does? Or does the receiver pre amp sit between the htpc n the amps?

1. Mine is a Win7 machine so it is slow to boot up but Win 8.1 is in my near future. I shut it down like any other computer and yes, it is a PC with lots of storage (9TB) and HDMI output.

2. I use a wireless keyboard with touchpad to control the HTPC.

3. The HTPC is a source device and connects to my Integra via HDMI.

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post #20362 of 30452 Old 06-05-2014, 12:45 AM
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1. Mine is a Win7 machine so it is slow to boot up but Win 8.1 is in my near future. I shut it down like any other computer and yes, it is a PC with lots of storage (9TB) and HDMI output.

And Windows 8.1 can boot up very fast (15-20 sec if you have an SSD system drive) but if you want fast, just put the HTPC to sleep as it will wake up even faster.

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post #20363 of 30452 Old 06-05-2014, 03:33 AM
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1. Mine is a Win7 machine so it is slow to boot up but Win 8.1 is in my near future. I shut it down like any other computer and yes, it is a PC with lots of storage (9TB) and HDMI output.

2. I use a wireless keyboard with touchpad to control the HTPC.

3. The HTPC is a source device and connects to my Integra via HDMI.

Follow up question. If your htpc is one source then what about other sources? For example sat tv or xbox etc. Since you are using your htpc as the sound mixer then other sources can't be mixed properly for your setup... for instance what happens to the lfe channel in sat tv content?
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post #20364 of 30452 Old 06-05-2014, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Going to be staying with the 215RT's. I think it will be a pretty ultimate home theater speaker.

Plus I only want to go to reference anyhow.
Your going to be fine with what ever you choose. 212's 228's or the 215's are all good and will give an incredible HT experience.
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post #20365 of 30452 Old 06-05-2014, 06:48 AM
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Electric going in the theater tomorrow and we were talking tonight and I decided to add a rear platform and make it a 5 seater. Maybe get the sheet rock started next week. Getting excited now.

Just make sure the seating is modular so you can fit some more subs back there for room smoothing issues if needed biggrin.gif

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I really think you won't regret it. You have tons of setup options. Even crossing the 215RTs at 80hz should gain some midbass output over a 212HT. By how much not sure but as they say there is no
replacement for dissplacement. I would not making a crossover decision until they are in room and you do trial and error. Even tho my 2x15 theater mains have in room response below 40hz I still get the best sub to main integration crossed at 80hz with movies.

I have found this now with several different types of speakers in my space. The T12's I owned a while back had the most anemic midbass out of all my setups so far, and I think the culprit was the higher rolloff point. Moving to a single 12" SEOS build, you would think it would not even be as impressive, but I tuned that system to around 40hz and it was actually a pretty drastic difference. Since then, I have now gone through two different Danley setups and they have both had better midbass as well, between the dual 8" on the sm60f and the dual 12's on the sh50. I Think most of this is entirely due to the lower f3 points. Better speaker integration is the result. If you are crossing at the same point there is rolloff, there could be integration issues.

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And Windows 8.1 can boot up very fast (15-20 sec if you have an SSD system drive) but if you want fast, just put the HTPC to sleep as it will wake up even faster.

Hmmm, I would almost want to keep the HTPC up and running at all times so I have remote access to it without having to walk down to the theater every single day to boot it up....Is there an issue with that?

Also, I am getting increasingly interested in this HTPC thing as it would simplify so many aspects of my music storage and streaming, measuring the room, etc etc. How much are you on the hook for, if you are looking for something that will basically do storage, REW, and BD ripping? Nothing as extravagant as n8's as I would still do my gaming on consoles.
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post #20366 of 30452 Old 06-05-2014, 07:35 AM
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Follow up question. If your htpc is one source then what about other sources? For example sat tv or xbox etc. Since you are using your htpc as the sound mixer then other sources can't be mixed properly for your setup... for instance what happens to the lfe channel in sat tv content?
You can use the Hauppauge Colossus card or their external HD PVR's to route satellite in to the HTPC. In dlbeck's The Savoy theater, he uses a Colossus card and the DirecTV STB is connected via HDMI so it all stays digital. In some areas, the satellite is encrypted and the video needs to go analog into the HTPC while the audio stays digital. From what I've read, most doing satellite this way can't tell much difference between the analog and digital. He also has an HDHomeRun for tuning OTA channels. For both satellite and OTA, JRiver handles the recording and playback.
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Can you control everything with a remote like you control your blu ray player for instance. Or do you have to sit by a keyboard.
You can get a USB IR receiver for an HTPC and use any universal remote such as the Logitech Harmony to control the HTPC. The easier way that most are using now is to just use any Android or iOS device to control the HTPC. There are are apps for both. I use my Android phone mostly for control now. Of course for tagging and management I still grab my wireless keyboard.

\


Quote:
How do you connect multiple sources to the htpc and easily switch between them like a receiver does? Or does the receiver pre amp sit between the htpc n the amps?
Some use the HTPC as their only source including routing satellite through it. Others use a receiver for game boxes, cable, radio, satellite, SACD, etc. In the 2nd case, the HTPC is used for high quality playback of DVD, Blu-ray, and music and is routed through the receiver. The HTPC still is used for EQ of its sources with the receiver handling other sources.

The price of an HTPC is primarily dependent on your priorities and sources. You can spend $500 and get great results with Blu-ray. The best video renderer used by HTPC's is called madVR. It is a software plugin that uses pixel shaders in the video card for scaling and can use the video card similar to how a game uses it. With Blu-ray, you still need to upscale chroma. The most advanced and best quality require a lot of horsepower. If you also want to upscale DVD and other video at the highest quality you need even more power. Its all a trade off of what value you think you get by spending more money. Like audio. the improvements become more incremental. If you want to upscale to 4K you need a fast CPU. Same with decoding multi-channel DSD. You need a little faster CPU than if just doing Blu-ray. For the best HTPC just for Blu-ray you are looking more at $1000+ DIY. If you add on other requirements like satellite or OTA TV, then the price goes up. I'm not including storage in the price. That is a separate issue.
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post #20367 of 30452 Old 06-05-2014, 07:55 AM
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I was looking at the audiophile and prestige options over at assassin's webpage. Both seem to have quite a bit of versatility... Sorry for the OT

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post #20368 of 30452 Old 06-05-2014, 08:00 AM
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You can use the Hauppauge Colossus card or their external HD PVR's to route satellite in to the HTPC. In dlbeck's The Savoy theater, he uses a Colossus card and the DirecTV STB is connected via HDMI so it all stays digital. In some areas, the satellite is encrypted and the video needs to go analog into the HTPC while the audio stays digital. From what I've read, most doing satellite this way can't tell much difference between the analog and digital. He also has an HDHomeRun for tuning OTA channels. For both satellite and OTA, JRiver handles the recording and playback.
You can get a USB IR receiver for an HTPC and use any universal remote such as the Logitech Harmony to control the HTPC. The easier way that most are using now is to just use any Android or iOS device to control the HTPC. There are are apps for both. I use my Android phone mostly for control now. Of course for tagging and management I still grab my wireless keyboard.

\


Some use the HTPC as their only source including routing satellite through it. Others use a receiver for game boxes, cable, radio, satellite, SACD, etc. In the 2nd case, the HTPC is used for high quality playback of DVD, Blu-ray, and music and is routed through the receiver. The HTPC still is used for EQ of its sources with the receiver handling other sources.

The price of an HTPC is primarily dependent on your priorities and sources. You can spend $500 and get great results with Blu-ray. The best video renderer used by HTPC's is called madVR. It is a software plugin that uses pixel shaders in the video card for scaling and can use the video card similar to how a game uses it. With Blu-ray, you still need to upscale chroma. The most advanced and best quality require a lot of horsepower. If you also want to upscale DVD and other video at the highest quality you need even more power. Its all a trade off of what value you think you get by spending more money. Like audio. the improvements become more incremental. If you want to upscale to 4K you need a fast CPU. Same with decoding multi-channel DSD. You need a little faster CPU than if just doing Blu-ray. For the best HTPC just for Blu-ray you are looking more at $1000+ DIY. If you add on other requirements like satellite or OTA TV, then the price goes up. I'm not including storage in the price. That is a separate issue.

Wow... this is very informative desertdome. Thanks.

Looks like the htpc can be extremely versatile. It might be something I would consider in the near future.
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post #20369 of 30452 Old 06-05-2014, 08:39 AM
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Wow... this is very informative desertdome. Thanks.

Looks like the htpc can be extremely versatile. It might be something I would consider in the near future.

Yes, DD is very good with the HTPC setup and JRiver config. In my case, when using the HTPC it is doing the channel mixing, PEQ and bass management. With all of my other sources (NEOTV for streaming, 2 bluray players and Comcast DVR) te Rane handles the DSP.

Honestly, I prefer the Rane as it has more power and is easier to use. Many undocumented features and hidden menu options make the JRiver challenging and so hanging out on the JRiver support blog is essential. Not really my thing ... but eventually I need to get there. Hopefully by then it will become more user friendly. smile.gif

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post #20370 of 30452 Old 06-05-2014, 09:40 AM
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Many undocumented features
Too many features to even document all of them. biggrin.gif
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hidden menu options make the JRiver challenging
I've used JRiver for about 10 years and don't even know of any hidden menu options. rolleyes.gifsmile.gif
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