Official JTR speaker thread - Page 683 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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Old 06-12-2014, 09:39 PM
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One of my main problems was I got the 212LP's, that and the fact I want gobs of midbass lol. I had the ported T12's and never though they were all that lacking but also never though they were extra ordinary. BUT thats only a small knock on an otherwise awesome speaker!

My 215's did eliminate my need for my MBM's all together. I've had likely over 40 people since getting the 215's now. Everyone always goes " WTF" at first, then ask " Why do you need speakers that big?" and once the demo is done, go
"WTF" again hahahaha!

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Old 06-12-2014, 09:44 PM
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so nate now that you have the 215's are you running 2 channel for music without the subs or are the subs starting to creep back into the lower octaves?
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Old 06-12-2014, 10:37 PM
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so nate now that you have the 215's are you running 2 channel for music without the subs or are the subs starting to creep back into the lower octaves?
Depends what I'm listing to. I do like them with subs better than without lol I don't have any issues with integration with my subs and it sounds great either way.
Agina my main reason for getting the 215's was to be able to have some bass later in the evening without having to turn on all my subs and they are serving their purpose perfectly!

I know there is a big deal being made about how having the full range being so much better yadda yadda and it is really good but is it THAT much better than having to use subs? IMO not at all. I get the same enjoyment running my 215's either way.... In fact, I like running my subs better!

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Old 06-12-2014, 10:52 PM
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Nate I think that emoticon was developed just for you lol!
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Old 06-12-2014, 10:55 PM
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Its been awhile since we have had gun discussions

On that note has anyone watched the Lone Survivor? Pretty good soundtrack. Great impacts and surround effects!!!
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Old 06-12-2014, 11:19 PM
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well if the speakers are designed flat across the FR then sensitivity has a lot to do with the output for the entire FR including the 80-200hz band. I have read comments and it doesn't change the response. I will say I also remember him saying that his HT's had more output in what he called the midabass range than his 212LP's which is understandable inn many real world placement situations where boundaries exist fairly close.
To be honest, 1st, I don't quite understand the 'flat response' argument... 2nd, take what i say with a grain of salt because my not understanding could be the reason..

Anyways, to me, a flat response doesn't say anything about mid bass... you can have a 5 inch speaker that have a flat response, and that doesn't mean it'll have the mid bass you want...

I think it's more to do with 'how much volume of air' is pushed out... so, a bigger driver, with a flat response will give you a bigger 'bang'...

You can have 12 inch, 15 inch, and 18 inch woofers, all flat response, and when played at the same volume, the 18 will give you a bigger bang.. .(that's my opinion)...

And I do agree that the 212 (is good in mid bass when compared to my other hi fi speakers), but is still lacking... nothing a couple of 18 inch mbms won't fix though...
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Old 06-12-2014, 11:59 PM
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Depends what I'm listing to. I do like them with subs better than without lol I don't have any issues with integration with my subs and it sounds great either way.
Agina my main reason for getting the 215's was to be able to have some bass later in the evening without having to turn on all my subs and they are serving their purpose perfectly!

I know there is a big deal being made about how having the full range being so much better yadda yadda and it is really good but is it THAT much better than having to use subs? IMO not at all. I get the same enjoyment running my 215's either way.... In fact, I like running my subs better!
When using your subs, where is your crossover point?

When you used the 212's with MBM's,
what were your xover points from the 212 to MBM and MBM to subs?

I am thinking about adding MBM's to my 228's, or replacing them with yorkville u215's to get better midbass slam. If I replace them, they will most likely be moved to my living room system.
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Old 06-13-2014, 12:03 AM
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When using your subs, where is your crossover point?

When you used the 212's with MBM's,
what were your xover points from the 212 to MBM and MBM to subs?

I am thinking about adding MBM's to my 228's, or replacing them with yorkville u215's to get better midbass slam. If I replace them, they will most likely be moved to my living room system.
70hz now

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Old 06-13-2014, 12:04 AM
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Does any one know how to not get emails sent after people post? I've unchecked every box possible and still get emails....

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Old 06-13-2014, 12:10 AM
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Does any one know how to not get emails sent after people post? I've unchecked every box possible and still get emails....
Not sure, I am still getting emails from threads I unsubscribed to earlier today
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Old 06-13-2014, 12:40 AM
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Yea please announce the email thing when you figure it out. there is a thread people are complaint in and the administrators are responding and asking for feedback. I posted a few recommendations but hate getting unneeded emails...
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Old 06-13-2014, 01:24 AM
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Does any one know how to not get emails sent after people post? I've unchecked every box possible and still get emails....
Its a bug. I already made a complain
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Old 06-13-2014, 05:10 AM
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To be honest, 1st, I don't quite understand the 'flat response' argument... 2nd, take what i say with a grain of salt because my not understanding could be the reason..

Anyways, to me, a flat response doesn't say anything about mid bass... you can have a 5 inch speaker that have a flat response, and that doesn't mean it'll have the mid bass you want...

I think it's more to do with 'how much volume of air' is pushed out... so, a bigger driver, with a flat response will give you a bigger 'bang'...

You can have 12 inch, 15 inch, and 18 inch woofers, all flat response, and when played at the same volume, the 18 will give you a bigger bang.. .(that's my opinion)...

And I do agree that the 212 (is good in mid bass when compared to my other hi fi speakers), but is still lacking... nothing a couple of 18 inch mbms won't fix though...
the flat response and sensitivity tell us about the response and output of the whole frequency band. The output of the midbass range is what has been focused on here. If we have two speakers designed flat and can handle the same program power and one is more sensitive, then the more sensitive speaker has more output capability. Now the 212HT is not flat to as low a Freq as the 215, but in the area it is designed to run it is more sensitive and will have more output capability with whatever amount of power is used. Also as a generalization, if the 15" driver speaker is designed with the same F3 point as the 12" then it will often (there are other factors) have higher output and sensitivity than the 12" driver speaker.

No the MBM will not always fix the problem if you have a midbass issue. If the issue is caused by the room (often it is SBIR) then if placed in the same spot as the original speaker you will often see the same suckout. This is talked about at length in the DIY forum. The nice thing about the separate MBM's is the same as separate subs and that is placement options. Many find that flanking MBM's in relation to thier mains is very beneficial in their room set ups

Hope this helps.
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Old 06-13-2014, 06:49 AM
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I guess my problem is I should have never listened to Beast's Danleys. Wider soundstage and stronger midbass...in a less sensitive speaker (maybe 95db). If Danley makes a more articulate HT specific version as they have discussed, my 212s will likely be in the classifieds...if the forum is fixed by then.
I really think you need to hear some 215's. I cannot wait for the 215's vs SH50.
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Old 06-13-2014, 08:46 AM
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I don't know about the 210RT but the 215RT will have the 215RM which is a smaller, sealed version of the 215 with the same horn and 15" midbasses. I don't have exact measurements handy but I'm pretty sure they are 48"x17"x18"deep. I was really considering swapping my 212HTs for the 215RMs until I heard the RMs will only go down to about 60Hz.
If you're going to use the 215RM as a center and/or surrounds you aren't going to get any frequencies that low in the source material anyways. Dolby recording and downmixing standards state that frequencies that low are going to the LFE channel and if that's disabled/missing, only send low frequencies to the main L/R channels. The center and surrounds are never to have frequencies that low.
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Old 06-13-2014, 08:47 AM
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228HT make EXCELLENT surrounds if you only have need of a 60* spread pattern from your speaker mounting location to your listening position. If you have need for a wider spread because of multiple rows then a single 8 or other coaxial drive speaker sprays a wider path.

If you haven't heard the 228HT as surrounds, as I and others have, at one of the dlbeck G2Gs - then I don't know how you can say they don't make good surrounds. They are ridiculously capable of volume - like the 212HT and the gattling gun scene from book of eli at +17 with an all JTR system (212HT front, 228HT rears) was the loudest cleanest, most capable theater system I've ever heard.

Phenomenal!


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Old 06-13-2014, 08:57 AM
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I really think you need to hear some 215's. I cannot wait for the 215's vs SH50.
Even with these controlled directivity designs, the room, EQ, source and listening conditions play a large role in opinions. It is only after properly installing speakers in your own space, tweaking and listening over time that you really find out what you have and if it works for you.

A GTG with all of the variables at play is a fun event, but hardly definitive. I have said many times that I could be happy with JTR, Seaton or Danley (and probably others) but at a point you have to pick your partner and make it work ... or not!

Sorry for the interruption, let the postulating continue.
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Old 06-13-2014, 09:12 AM
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Dgage- I appreciate your perspective..10 years ago I dove in swan diva 6.1 speakers blind..that $2k purchase was a smart one. Brazilian rosewood finish plus they sound quite good. I expect the next 7.1 speaker system in a dedicated space to go to the next level, especially at JTR 215/Cat 12c/Danley prices...
Those same speakers were my first purchase several years ago! It's been a whirlwind since then, but I sold those to a buddy and are still ridiculously impressed with their ability and looks

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I wonder if Jeff would redesign the 212 Noesis. Like a gen 2 or something. And put different woofers in them and of course the crossover work. Just seems like it wouldn't be too hard to do and all this mid bass crisis could be solved with 12 inch woofers just different ones. Right? I mean get away from the very low xmax of the eminence and something else? Or am I missing something?
The emmy driver has enough xmax to theoretically get some decent midbass, being basically equivalent to a single 15". It's not the need of more xmax, it is just a design preference.

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I really think you need to hear some 215's. I cannot wait for the 215's vs SH50.
You know, coach will have his pair only 2 short hours away from here in a few weeks, we could probably make that showdown happen
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Old 06-13-2014, 12:28 PM
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If you're going to use the 215RM as a center and/or surrounds you aren't going to get any frequencies that low in the source material anyways. Dolby recording and downmixing standards state that frequencies that low are going to the LFE channel and if that's disabled/missing, only send low frequencies to the main L/R channels. The center and surrounds are never to have frequencies that low.
I was thinking of replacing my LR 212HT-LPs with 215RMs and it isn't out of the realm of possibility but I doubt I would for a speaker that only goes down to 60Hz, unless it blows me away - Coach will hopefully have it in a week or so. I can't fit the 215RTs, without taking out the built-in I just built with the 212s in mind. And I need the storage in my living room so no 215RT for me.

Regarding the LFE channel, that's nothing my MiniDSP NanoAVR can't handle.
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Old 06-13-2014, 12:38 PM
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You know, Coach will have his pair only 2 short hours away from here in a few weeks, we could probably make that showdown happen
Can we plan for that to happen BEFORE I have to help him carry the beasts up to his theater room?

And maybe Gooddoc wants to bring down his SM60Fs for comparison too!
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Old 06-13-2014, 01:39 PM
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flat line is good, although in midbass I too like it bumped up. In my case because of placement I am getting a huge bump in that region, notice I am also getting a suckout in the 300hz range which is driving me nuts.
That is a real nice midbass hump. I'm a midbass junkie too and love my JBL 4722 cabs.

I'd b curious to see a close mic response to eliminate the effect of the room and compare to your mlp response.

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Old 06-13-2014, 02:03 PM
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That is a real nice midbass hump. I'm a midbass junkie too and love my JBL 4722 cabs.

I'd b curious to see a close mic response to eliminate the effect of the room and compare to your mlp response.
here is 1 M full range. Still some room effect but greatly minimized.
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Old 06-13-2014, 02:20 PM
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here is 1 M full range. Still some room effect but greatly minimized.
Thank you sir! Nice looks real good.

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Old 06-13-2014, 03:19 PM
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Unless they fixed something, I don't see any problems uploading pics? Seems pretty simple to me.
But they don't show up as images, rather they show up as a link (at least on my phone they do).
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Old 06-13-2014, 04:06 PM
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I guess my problem is I should have never listened to Beast's Danleys. Wider soundstage and stronger midbass...in a less sensitive speaker (maybe 95db). If Danley makes a more articulate HT specific version as they have discussed, my 212s will likely be in the classifieds...if the forum is fixed by then.
I had the opportunity to listen to the danley sh50's and the JTR 212's in the same room. It was at carps earlier this year. They sounded remarkably similar to me. At the end of the day I concluded that I would be very happy with either speaker for movies and that music was good too but neither really pulled ahead of the other. I was unable to hear much of a difference in clarity, dynamics, mid bass, or soundstage. That is not to say that differences do not exist but rather I could not hear them in his room that day. The one discernible difference was the sound from the second row of seats which is not carps main listening position. It was much better on the danleys especially with respect to the soundstage.

Therefore I would tend to attribute the differences in soundstage and or mid bass to the room itself or to speaker placement within the room with respect to listening position. I am sure that under an A B test one could hear a difference with the right room. But there were more similarities than differences in my listening.

Like I said previously I concluded that I would be very happy with either of these speakers. I subsequently had the opportunity to listen to carps 212's in my own room. It is almost comical how our experience with the 212's could differ so radically which is why I have to attribute it to variable other than the speakers themselves. The most incredible characteristic of the 212's in my own room was the soundstage. It was so expansive that I think it would be hard to discern that another speaker was better in that regard. I am sure there are speakers that do indeed have a better soundstage but in my room one would be hard pressed to discern it. The mid bass in my room was fantastic. I was thrilled with the way it filled the room and seemed to be ever present. I was crossing the speakers at 80hz to my Orbit Shifter. The clarity and dynamics at reference were stellar as expected.

So I decided to buy carps 212's based on that demo. He is keeping his right and left channels so I am buying another 212 from jeff and he is bringing it to dlbecks along with carps 215rt's on June 28. I would have been equally happy with the danleys. The sm60's are the ones that fit the price bracket. I ended up with the 212's a little earlier than I wanted in my speaker search but I had to strike while the iron was hot in order to get a discount on a used set. Others on my short list were the cat 8's and the triad golds.

My impressions of music on the 212's were similar to the movies regarding clarity, dynamics, etc. However when it comes to that certain something that just draws you into the music it was hit or miss for me. All content had those awesome characteristics that I just wrote about wit movies. But there is that little extra something that makes you "fall in love" with listening to music on a certain speaker. I found that it was either there in spades or not at all depending on the track. When it was there I could not stop myself from grinning. This occurred mostly on the acoustic tracks which is what I listen to mostly anyway. So based on this they may not be my "forever" speaker but how many of us here keep our speakers for more than 6-8 years? More than 10 and you are setting records around here. That said for movies I think the 212 is one of the best in its price range and I am 70 movies and 15 music and 15 games.

Anyways I thought I would share that. Take it with a grain of salt if you wish since I am now an owner. But I have tried to be as objective as possible and pointed out faults with music where I think I see them. However the soundstage and mid bass were strengths in my room and they were very similar in carps room.

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Old 06-13-2014, 04:14 PM
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First, let me say there is more dialing in and treatments to be done in my room. I guess it comes down to me being ignorant in buying the 212HT-LPs that likely have less midbass output than the regular 212s, which others have complained about not having enough midbass. If I change my mind about MY 212s after continuing to dial in my system with my MiniDSP NanoAVR, I'll report back but so far, even with a nice midbass boost, I'm not impressed with the midbass output of the sealed 212HT-LPs. I expected a lot more out of a pair of 12" even knowing that the design goal was high sensitivity.

So for those of you that think you might like more midbass than normal, I'd recommend you steer toward the ported 212HTs.
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Old 06-13-2014, 04:37 PM
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First, let me say there is more dialing in and treatments to be done in my room. I guess it comes down to me being ignorant in buying the 212HT-LPs that likely have less midbass output than the regular 212s, which others have complained about not having enough midbass. If I change my mind about MY 212s after continuing to dial in my system with my MiniDSP NanoAVR, I'll report back but so far, even with a nice midbass boost, I'm not impressed with the midbass output of the sealed 212HT-LPs. I expected a lot more out of a pair of 12" even knowing that the design goal was high sensitivity.

So for those of you that think you might like more midbass than normal, I'd recommend you steer toward the ported 212HTs.
dgage, are you able to post measurements too? That might help put it in perspective to so we can see what is going on a bit.
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Old 06-13-2014, 05:09 PM
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I'd say as soon as my delayed flight takes off but this will be a busy weekend so I'll put it on my list for Monday night if I can't get to it sooner.
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Old 06-13-2014, 06:21 PM
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Jmg,

Awesome write up! Glad you are scooping the 212's! I agree it is always room dependent, and we did our best to just have both offerings situated where we could switch between them in real time so positioning was quite limited, but it was still pretty good sounding between both offerings and I feel like people saw good things about each.
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Old 06-13-2014, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
First, let me say there is more dialing in and treatments to be done in my room. I guess it comes down to me being ignorant in buying the 212HT-LPs that likely have less midbass output than the regular 212s, which others have complained about not having enough midbass. If I change my mind about MY 212s after continuing to dial in my system with my MiniDSP NanoAVR, I'll report back but so far, even with a nice midbass boost, I'm not impressed with the midbass output of the sealed 212HT-LPs. I expected a lot more out of a pair of 12" even knowing that the design goal was high sensitivity.

So for those of you that think you might like more midbass than normal, I'd recommend you steer toward the ported 212HTs.
I didn't realize the LP's could potentially have less mid bass.

What sub do you have and can you cross at say 100 or 120? Provided the sub is in the front of the room. Or do some MBM's like dlbeck is doing with his set up.
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