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dgage's Avatar dgage 08:54 PM 06-12-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
BTW - add my vote to the I don't like the changes crowd. Too many forum changes around here IMO. Places like Home Theater Shack and Audioholics and hardforum, and corvetteforum, and clubgp - other places I hang out NEVER change their forum themes or vendors. Why does AVSforum constantly bounce around?
Apparently the previous software, Huddler, is no longer supported.

jlpowell84's Avatar jlpowell84 09:05 PM 06-12-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post
Check out the 80-200hz midbass in my room with the 212HT, no subs running at all and a -7dB 1/3band octave filter.

OK I can't import a pic. sorry not used to the new format yet
You just need to go to advanced and then on the left is the upload spot
jlpowell84's Avatar jlpowell84 09:07 PM 06-12-2014
I wonder if Jeff would redesign the 212 Noesis. Like a gen 2 or something. And put different woofers in them and of course the crossover work. Just seems like it wouldn't be too hard to do and all this mid bass crisis could be solved with 12 inch woofers just different ones. Right? I mean get away from the very low xmax of the eminence and something else? Or am I missing something?
lbrown105's Avatar lbrown105 09:12 PM 06-12-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
I guess my problem is I should have never listened to Beast's Danleys. Wider soundstage and stronger midbass...in a less sensitive speaker (maybe 95db). If Danley makes a more articulate HT specific version as they have discussed, my 212s will likely be in the classifieds...if the forum is fixed by then.
I would love to hear those too. From what I understand the directivity goes much lower with the design which could be a game changer in many rooms. Sounds like a lot of people agree they were awesome and I heard they may make a more HT designed speaker. Have you heard that? Were you going to do a DIY type thing for that too?
dgage's Avatar dgage 09:16 PM 06-12-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
I wonder if Jeff would redesign the 212 Noesis. Like a gen 2 or something. And put different woofers in them and of course the crossover work. Just seems like it wouldn't be too hard to do and all this mid bass crisis could be solved with 12 inch woofers just different ones. Right? I mean get away from the very low xmax of the eminence and something else? Or am I missing something?
Comments I've heard second hand; when asked about how to get more midbass out of the 212s is that Jeff thinks they have plenty of midbass. It would seem there are some that disagree with Jeff's assertion.
lbrown105's Avatar lbrown105 09:19 PM 06-12-2014
thx, here is the FR. The 212 does not have a midbass crisis or at least not the part of the midbass it was designed to cover. It is about sensitivity. If you want the speaker to go lower and cover all the midbass then just get the 215 or the 210. Neither of these will match the output of the OS 212 combo though. Now I am curious about the 215RM with F3 of 60hz. From 60 up I assume it will beat the 212.
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dgage's Avatar dgage 09:19 PM 06-12-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post
I would love to hear those too. From what I understand the directivity goes much lower with the design which could be a game changer in many rooms. Sounds like a lot of people agree they were awesome and I heard they may make a more HT designed speaker. Have you heard that? Were you going to do a DIY type thing for that too?
I was thinking of a DIY Danley Noesis until I figured out how truly complex the Danley design is. I knew the crossover would be difficult. But when I learned about the mids and midbasses firing into a bandpass instead of firing directly into the horn, I figured I was over my head even though it would be awesome to take on as I'm sure I'd learn a ton. But when I went over the financial numbers, it would be pretty expensive to try and replicate that design with the Noesis 212/215 compression driver with no guarantee of getting a nice sounding result.
jlpowell84's Avatar jlpowell84 09:21 PM 06-12-2014
I am continued to be thoroughly impressed by the Oppo Blu Ray player! The Darbee video processing is amazing! I think the videophile just clicked in me

I know some of you posted your crazy gaming setups the other day. I don't have a crazy gaming rig. Just the newest gen Mac Mini upgraded to 16gb ram and my PS3. But I just got this Ergatron arm and run it on another zone from my Denon 4520ci. Pretty cool and functional setup really. I like that I can have any of my different inputs (Mac mini, PS3, Oppo BDP, Apple TV or whatever else I put in) on two different displays at the same time. Or mirror the displays. And the Lazy Boy makes for a nice bonus! Anyway this is what I had envisioned with a projector setup. That way I don't need to always turn on my PJ and save bulb life.
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dgage's Avatar dgage 09:22 PM 06-12-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post
thx, here is the FR. The 212 does not have a midbass crisis or at least not the part of the midbass it was designed to cover. It is about sensitivity. If you want the speaker to go lower and cover all the midbass then just get the 215 or the 210. Neither of these will match the output of the OS 212 combo though. Now I am curious about the 215RM with F3 of 60hz. From 60 up I assume it will beat the 212.
That's with no EQ? Damn you're getting some hellacious room boundary reinforcement. I don't get anywhere near that with my 212HT-LPs, more like a flat line.
lbrown105's Avatar lbrown105 09:23 PM 06-12-2014
I would guess if you did get it right you would either have a great new business with some awesome IP or an IP infringement lawsuit if not careful. Haha. I would think that would be a huge undertaking but hey you never know maybe you're on to something or it will sppark another even better idea!
jlpowell84's Avatar jlpowell84 09:24 PM 06-12-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Comments I've heard second hand; when asked about how to get more midbass out of the 212s is that Jeff thinks they have plenty of midbass. It would seem there are some that disagree with Jeff's assertion.
Well I am sure he would build a different if asked. Just say, "Jeff build me a 212 with bigger xmax woofers and even more mid bass."
lbrown105's Avatar lbrown105 09:26 PM 06-12-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
That's with no EQ? Damn you're getting some hellacious room boundary reinforcement. I don't get anywhere near that with my 212HT-LPs, more like a flat line.
flat line is good, although in midbass I too like it bumped up. In my case because of placement I am getting a huge bump in that region, notice I am also getting a suckout in the 300hz range which is driving me nuts.
jlpowell84's Avatar jlpowell84 09:26 PM 06-12-2014
oh and can someone kindly remind me where is the best place to start a thread on my setup? Do you all put yours in the same place or is there a split?
lbrown105's Avatar lbrown105 09:29 PM 06-12-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
I am continued to be thoroughly impressed by the Oppo Blu Ray player! The Darbee video processing is amazing! I think the videophile just clicked in me

I know some of you posted your crazy gaming setups the other day. I don't have a crazy gaming rig. Just the newest gen Mac Mini upgraded to 16gb ram and my PS3. But I just got this Ergatron arm and run it on another zone from my Denon 4520ci. Pretty cool and functional setup really. I like that I can have any of my different inputs (Mac mini, PS3, Oppo BDP, Apple TV or whatever else I put in) on two different displays at the same time. Or mirror the displays. And the Lazy Boy makes for a nice bonus! Anyway this is what I had envisioned with a projector setup. That way I don't need to always turn on my PJ and save bulb life.
that is cool looking and I love the save the projector aspect too. Nice set up.
jlpowell84's Avatar jlpowell84 09:33 PM 06-12-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
I was thinking of a DIY Danley Noesis until I figured out how truly complex the Danley design is. I knew the crossover would be difficult. But when I learned about the mids and midbasses firing into a bandpass instead of firing directly into the horn, I figured I was over my head even though it would be awesome to take on as I'm sure I'd learn a ton. But when I went over the financial numbers, it would be pretty expensive to try and replicate that design with the Noesis 212/215 compression driver with no guarantee of getting a nice sounding result.
Yes there is getting into a level of design that is very complex and takes serious know how. There is actually a thread of a DIY synergy horn with the BMS 4593. One guy on there who sounds like a doctor with all the technical jargon said it is kind of a waist to use such an expensive CD in the synergy horn as it does not matter. He was talking about the SQ and how good the speaker is comes from the "sum" of all it's parts and not a singular expensive cd. That a combination of cheaper drivers can be made to sound just as good as a single expensive one. It made sense really. But yes there are some serious scientifically issues that go into that design. Now logic makes one think better sum of parts equals better speaker. But it was a bit challenging to that theory. One rhetorical question he posed was, "Don't you think Tom Danley would have used the 4593 if he deemed necessary?" I hold no stance lol, just the messenger

ok it was the 4594...

diy synergy build with bms 4594
N8DOGG's Avatar N8DOGG 09:39 PM 06-12-2014
One of my main problems was I got the 212LP's, that and the fact I want gobs of midbass lol. I had the ported T12's and never though they were all that lacking but also never though they were extra ordinary. BUT thats only a small knock on an otherwise awesome speaker!

My 215's did eliminate my need for my MBM's all together. I've had likely over 40 people since getting the 215's now. Everyone always goes " WTF" at first, then ask " Why do you need speakers that big?" and once the demo is done, go
"WTF" again hahahaha!
lbrown105's Avatar lbrown105 09:44 PM 06-12-2014
so nate now that you have the 215's are you running 2 channel for music without the subs or are the subs starting to creep back into the lower octaves?
N8DOGG's Avatar N8DOGG 10:37 PM 06-12-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post
so nate now that you have the 215's are you running 2 channel for music without the subs or are the subs starting to creep back into the lower octaves?
Depends what I'm listing to. I do like them with subs better than without lol I don't have any issues with integration with my subs and it sounds great either way.
Agina my main reason for getting the 215's was to be able to have some bass later in the evening without having to turn on all my subs and they are serving their purpose perfectly!

I know there is a big deal being made about how having the full range being so much better yadda yadda and it is really good but is it THAT much better than having to use subs? IMO not at all. I get the same enjoyment running my 215's either way.... In fact, I like running my subs better!
jlpowell84's Avatar jlpowell84 10:52 PM 06-12-2014
Nate I think that emoticon was developed just for you lol!
jlpowell84's Avatar jlpowell84 10:55 PM 06-12-2014
Its been awhile since we have had gun discussions

On that note has anyone watched the Lone Survivor? Pretty good soundtrack. Great impacts and surround effects!!!
coolgeek's Avatar coolgeek 11:19 PM 06-12-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post
well if the speakers are designed flat across the FR then sensitivity has a lot to do with the output for the entire FR including the 80-200hz band. I have read comments and it doesn't change the response. I will say I also remember him saying that his HT's had more output in what he called the midabass range than his 212LP's which is understandable inn many real world placement situations where boundaries exist fairly close.
To be honest, 1st, I don't quite understand the 'flat response' argument... 2nd, take what i say with a grain of salt because my not understanding could be the reason..

Anyways, to me, a flat response doesn't say anything about mid bass... you can have a 5 inch speaker that have a flat response, and that doesn't mean it'll have the mid bass you want...

I think it's more to do with 'how much volume of air' is pushed out... so, a bigger driver, with a flat response will give you a bigger 'bang'...

You can have 12 inch, 15 inch, and 18 inch woofers, all flat response, and when played at the same volume, the 18 will give you a bigger bang.. .(that's my opinion)...

And I do agree that the 212 (is good in mid bass when compared to my other hi fi speakers), but is still lacking... nothing a couple of 18 inch mbms won't fix though...
raynist's Avatar raynist 11:59 PM 06-12-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
Depends what I'm listing to. I do like them with subs better than without lol I don't have any issues with integration with my subs and it sounds great either way.
Agina my main reason for getting the 215's was to be able to have some bass later in the evening without having to turn on all my subs and they are serving their purpose perfectly!

I know there is a big deal being made about how having the full range being so much better yadda yadda and it is really good but is it THAT much better than having to use subs? IMO not at all. I get the same enjoyment running my 215's either way.... In fact, I like running my subs better!
When using your subs, where is your crossover point?

When you used the 212's with MBM's,
what were your xover points from the 212 to MBM and MBM to subs?

I am thinking about adding MBM's to my 228's, or replacing them with yorkville u215's to get better midbass slam. If I replace them, they will most likely be moved to my living room system.
N8DOGG's Avatar N8DOGG 12:03 AM 06-13-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by raynist View Post
When using your subs, where is your crossover point?

When you used the 212's with MBM's,
what were your xover points from the 212 to MBM and MBM to subs?

I am thinking about adding MBM's to my 228's, or replacing them with yorkville u215's to get better midbass slam. If I replace them, they will most likely be moved to my living room system.
70hz now

140hz - 60hz with MBM
N8DOGG's Avatar N8DOGG 12:04 AM 06-13-2014
Does any one know how to not get emails sent after people post? I've unchecked every box possible and still get emails....
raynist's Avatar raynist 12:10 AM 06-13-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
Does any one know how to not get emails sent after people post? I've unchecked every box possible and still get emails....
Not sure, I am still getting emails from threads I unsubscribed to earlier today
jlpowell84's Avatar jlpowell84 12:40 AM 06-13-2014
Yea please announce the email thing when you figure it out. there is a thread people are complaint in and the administrators are responding and asking for feedback. I posted a few recommendations but hate getting unneeded emails...
coolgeek's Avatar coolgeek 01:24 AM 06-13-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
Does any one know how to not get emails sent after people post? I've unchecked every box possible and still get emails....
Its a bug. I already made a complain
lbrown105's Avatar lbrown105 05:10 AM 06-13-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
To be honest, 1st, I don't quite understand the 'flat response' argument... 2nd, take what i say with a grain of salt because my not understanding could be the reason..

Anyways, to me, a flat response doesn't say anything about mid bass... you can have a 5 inch speaker that have a flat response, and that doesn't mean it'll have the mid bass you want...

I think it's more to do with 'how much volume of air' is pushed out... so, a bigger driver, with a flat response will give you a bigger 'bang'...

You can have 12 inch, 15 inch, and 18 inch woofers, all flat response, and when played at the same volume, the 18 will give you a bigger bang.. .(that's my opinion)...

And I do agree that the 212 (is good in mid bass when compared to my other hi fi speakers), but is still lacking... nothing a couple of 18 inch mbms won't fix though...
the flat response and sensitivity tell us about the response and output of the whole frequency band. The output of the midbass range is what has been focused on here. If we have two speakers designed flat and can handle the same program power and one is more sensitive, then the more sensitive speaker has more output capability. Now the 212HT is not flat to as low a Freq as the 215, but in the area it is designed to run it is more sensitive and will have more output capability with whatever amount of power is used. Also as a generalization, if the 15" driver speaker is designed with the same F3 point as the 12" then it will often (there are other factors) have higher output and sensitivity than the 12" driver speaker.

No the MBM will not always fix the problem if you have a midbass issue. If the issue is caused by the room (often it is SBIR) then if placed in the same spot as the original speaker you will often see the same suckout. This is talked about at length in the DIY forum. The nice thing about the separate MBM's is the same as separate subs and that is placement options. Many find that flanking MBM's in relation to thier mains is very beneficial in their room set ups

Hope this helps.
Reefdvr27's Avatar Reefdvr27 06:49 AM 06-13-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
I guess my problem is I should have never listened to Beast's Danleys. Wider soundstage and stronger midbass...in a less sensitive speaker (maybe 95db). If Danley makes a more articulate HT specific version as they have discussed, my 212s will likely be in the classifieds...if the forum is fixed by then.
I really think you need to hear some 215's. I cannot wait for the 215's vs SH50.
energizerfellow 08:46 AM 06-13-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
I don't know about the 210RT but the 215RT will have the 215RM which is a smaller, sealed version of the 215 with the same horn and 15" midbasses. I don't have exact measurements handy but I'm pretty sure they are 48"x17"x18"deep. I was really considering swapping my 212HTs for the 215RMs until I heard the RMs will only go down to about 60Hz.
If you're going to use the 215RM as a center and/or surrounds you aren't going to get any frequencies that low in the source material anyways. Dolby recording and downmixing standards state that frequencies that low are going to the LFE channel and if that's disabled/missing, only send low frequencies to the main L/R channels. The center and surrounds are never to have frequencies that low.
Tags: 228ht , captivator , Jtr , Jtr Noesis 212ht 212ht Lp
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