Official JTR speaker thread - Page 687 - AVS Forum
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post #20581 of 21437 Old 06-13-2014, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
228HT make EXCELLENT surrounds if you only have need of a 60* spread pattern from your speaker mounting location to your listening position. If you have need for a wider spread because of multiple rows then a single 8 or other coaxial drive speaker sprays a wider path.

If you haven't heard the 228HT as surrounds, as I and others have, at one of the dlbeck G2Gs - then I don't know how you can say they don't make good surrounds. They are ridiculously capable of volume - like the 212HT and the gattling gun scene from book of eli at +17 with an all JTR system (212HT front, 228HT rears) was the loudest cleanest, most capable theater system I've ever heard.

Phenomenal!


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post #20582 of 21437 Old 06-13-2014, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
I really think you need to hear some 215's. I cannot wait for the 215's vs SH50.
Even with these controlled directivity designs, the room, EQ, source and listening conditions play a large role in opinions. It is only after properly installing speakers in your own space, tweaking and listening over time that you really find out what you have and if it works for you.

A GTG with all of the variables at play is a fun event, but hardly definitive. I have said many times that I could be happy with JTR, Seaton or Danley (and probably others) but at a point you have to pick your partner and make it work ... or not!

Sorry for the interruption, let the postulating continue.
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post #20583 of 21437 Old 06-13-2014, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by vince32837 View Post
Dgage- I appreciate your perspective..10 years ago I dove in swan diva 6.1 speakers blind..that $2k purchase was a smart one. Brazilian rosewood finish plus they sound quite good. I expect the next 7.1 speaker system in a dedicated space to go to the next level, especially at JTR 215/Cat 12c/Danley prices...
Those same speakers were my first purchase several years ago! It's been a whirlwind since then, but I sold those to a buddy and are still ridiculously impressed with their ability and looks

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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
I wonder if Jeff would redesign the 212 Noesis. Like a gen 2 or something. And put different woofers in them and of course the crossover work. Just seems like it wouldn't be too hard to do and all this mid bass crisis could be solved with 12 inch woofers just different ones. Right? I mean get away from the very low xmax of the eminence and something else? Or am I missing something?
The emmy driver has enough xmax to theoretically get some decent midbass, being basically equivalent to a single 15". It's not the need of more xmax, it is just a design preference.

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I really think you need to hear some 215's. I cannot wait for the 215's vs SH50.
You know, coach will have his pair only 2 short hours away from here in a few weeks, we could probably make that showdown happen

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post #20584 of 21437 Old 06-13-2014, 11:28 AM
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If you're going to use the 215RM as a center and/or surrounds you aren't going to get any frequencies that low in the source material anyways. Dolby recording and downmixing standards state that frequencies that low are going to the LFE channel and if that's disabled/missing, only send low frequencies to the main L/R channels. The center and surrounds are never to have frequencies that low.
I was thinking of replacing my LR 212HT-LPs with 215RMs and it isn't out of the realm of possibility but I doubt I would for a speaker that only goes down to 60Hz, unless it blows me away - Coach will hopefully have it in a week or so. I can't fit the 215RTs, without taking out the built-in I just built with the 212s in mind. And I need the storage in my living room so no 215RT for me.

Regarding the LFE channel, that's nothing my MiniDSP NanoAVR can't handle.
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post #20585 of 21437 Old 06-13-2014, 11:38 AM
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You know, Coach will have his pair only 2 short hours away from here in a few weeks, we could probably make that showdown happen
Can we plan for that to happen BEFORE I have to help him carry the beasts up to his theater room?

And maybe Gooddoc wants to bring down his SM60Fs for comparison too!
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post #20586 of 21437 Old 06-13-2014, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post
flat line is good, although in midbass I too like it bumped up. In my case because of placement I am getting a huge bump in that region, notice I am also getting a suckout in the 300hz range which is driving me nuts.
That is a real nice midbass hump. I'm a midbass junkie too and love my JBL 4722 cabs.

I'd b curious to see a close mic response to eliminate the effect of the room and compare to your mlp response.

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post #20587 of 21437 Old 06-13-2014, 01:03 PM
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That is a real nice midbass hump. I'm a midbass junkie too and love my JBL 4722 cabs.

I'd b curious to see a close mic response to eliminate the effect of the room and compare to your mlp response.
here is 1 M full range. Still some room effect but greatly minimized.
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File Type: jpg noesis 212ht 1 meter full range.jpg (53.8 KB, 51 views)
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post #20588 of 21437 Old 06-13-2014, 01:20 PM
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here is 1 M full range. Still some room effect but greatly minimized.
Thank you sir! Nice looks real good.

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post #20589 of 21437 Old 06-13-2014, 02:19 PM
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Unless they fixed something, I don't see any problems uploading pics? Seems pretty simple to me.
But they don't show up as images, rather they show up as a link (at least on my phone they do).
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post #20590 of 21437 Old 06-13-2014, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
I guess my problem is I should have never listened to Beast's Danleys. Wider soundstage and stronger midbass...in a less sensitive speaker (maybe 95db). If Danley makes a more articulate HT specific version as they have discussed, my 212s will likely be in the classifieds...if the forum is fixed by then.
I had the opportunity to listen to the danley sh50's and the JTR 212's in the same room. It was at carps earlier this year. They sounded remarkably similar to me. At the end of the day I concluded that I would be very happy with either speaker for movies and that music was good too but neither really pulled ahead of the other. I was unable to hear much of a difference in clarity, dynamics, mid bass, or soundstage. That is not to say that differences do not exist but rather I could not hear them in his room that day. The one discernible difference was the sound from the second row of seats which is not carps main listening position. It was much better on the danleys especially with respect to the soundstage.

Therefore I would tend to attribute the differences in soundstage and or mid bass to the room itself or to speaker placement within the room with respect to listening position. I am sure that under an A B test one could hear a difference with the right room. But there were more similarities than differences in my listening.

Like I said previously I concluded that I would be very happy with either of these speakers. I subsequently had the opportunity to listen to carps 212's in my own room. It is almost comical how our experience with the 212's could differ so radically which is why I have to attribute it to variable other than the speakers themselves. The most incredible characteristic of the 212's in my own room was the soundstage. It was so expansive that I think it would be hard to discern that another speaker was better in that regard. I am sure there are speakers that do indeed have a better soundstage but in my room one would be hard pressed to discern it. The mid bass in my room was fantastic. I was thrilled with the way it filled the room and seemed to be ever present. I was crossing the speakers at 80hz to my Orbit Shifter. The clarity and dynamics at reference were stellar as expected.

So I decided to buy carps 212's based on that demo. He is keeping his right and left channels so I am buying another 212 from jeff and he is bringing it to dlbecks along with carps 215rt's on June 28. I would have been equally happy with the danleys. The sm60's are the ones that fit the price bracket. I ended up with the 212's a little earlier than I wanted in my speaker search but I had to strike while the iron was hot in order to get a discount on a used set. Others on my short list were the cat 8's and the triad golds.

My impressions of music on the 212's were similar to the movies regarding clarity, dynamics, etc. However when it comes to that certain something that just draws you into the music it was hit or miss for me. All content had those awesome characteristics that I just wrote about wit movies. But there is that little extra something that makes you "fall in love" with listening to music on a certain speaker. I found that it was either there in spades or not at all depending on the track. When it was there I could not stop myself from grinning. This occurred mostly on the acoustic tracks which is what I listen to mostly anyway. So based on this they may not be my "forever" speaker but how many of us here keep our speakers for more than 6-8 years? More than 10 and you are setting records around here. That said for movies I think the 212 is one of the best in its price range and I am 70 movies and 15 music and 15 games.

Anyways I thought I would share that. Take it with a grain of salt if you wish since I am now an owner. But I have tried to be as objective as possible and pointed out faults with music where I think I see them. However the soundstage and mid bass were strengths in my room and they were very similar in carps room.

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post #20591 of 21437 Old 06-13-2014, 03:14 PM
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First, let me say there is more dialing in and treatments to be done in my room. I guess it comes down to me being ignorant in buying the 212HT-LPs that likely have less midbass output than the regular 212s, which others have complained about not having enough midbass. If I change my mind about MY 212s after continuing to dial in my system with my MiniDSP NanoAVR, I'll report back but so far, even with a nice midbass boost, I'm not impressed with the midbass output of the sealed 212HT-LPs. I expected a lot more out of a pair of 12" even knowing that the design goal was high sensitivity.

So for those of you that think you might like more midbass than normal, I'd recommend you steer toward the ported 212HTs.
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post #20592 of 21437 Old 06-13-2014, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
First, let me say there is more dialing in and treatments to be done in my room. I guess it comes down to me being ignorant in buying the 212HT-LPs that likely have less midbass output than the regular 212s, which others have complained about not having enough midbass. If I change my mind about MY 212s after continuing to dial in my system with my MiniDSP NanoAVR, I'll report back but so far, even with a nice midbass boost, I'm not impressed with the midbass output of the sealed 212HT-LPs. I expected a lot more out of a pair of 12" even knowing that the design goal was high sensitivity.

So for those of you that think you might like more midbass than normal, I'd recommend you steer toward the ported 212HTs.
dgage, are you able to post measurements too? That might help put it in perspective to so we can see what is going on a bit.

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post #20593 of 21437 Old 06-13-2014, 04:09 PM
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I'd say as soon as my delayed flight takes off but this will be a busy weekend so I'll put it on my list for Monday night if I can't get to it sooner.
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post #20594 of 21437 Old 06-13-2014, 05:21 PM
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Jmg,

Awesome write up! Glad you are scooping the 212's! I agree it is always room dependent, and we did our best to just have both offerings situated where we could switch between them in real time so positioning was quite limited, but it was still pretty good sounding between both offerings and I feel like people saw good things about each.
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post #20595 of 21437 Old 06-13-2014, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
First, let me say there is more dialing in and treatments to be done in my room. I guess it comes down to me being ignorant in buying the 212HT-LPs that likely have less midbass output than the regular 212s, which others have complained about not having enough midbass. If I change my mind about MY 212s after continuing to dial in my system with my MiniDSP NanoAVR, I'll report back but so far, even with a nice midbass boost, I'm not impressed with the midbass output of the sealed 212HT-LPs. I expected a lot more out of a pair of 12" even knowing that the design goal was high sensitivity.

So for those of you that think you might like more midbass than normal, I'd recommend you steer toward the ported 212HTs.
I didn't realize the LP's could potentially have less mid bass.

What sub do you have and can you cross at say 100 or 120? Provided the sub is in the front of the room. Or do some MBM's like dlbeck is doing with his set up.
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post #20596 of 21437 Old 06-13-2014, 06:55 PM
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Jmg,

Awesome write up! Glad you are scooping the 212's! I agree it is always room dependent, and we did our best to just have both offerings situated where we could switch between them in real time so positioning was quite limited, but it was still pretty good sounding between both offerings and I feel like people saw good things about each.
Hey thanks I am pretty excited about them. Again realizing that there are speakers out there that do certain things better. It is all a compromise like it or not.

And I did love those Danleys! I would have bought them used from carp if that was what he was selling.

For the price I think I will be very happy with the movie performance. If I am nervous about anything it is the music. As I said it was hit or miss. Luckily a hit was the Dave Mathews and Tim Reynolds Blu Ray. It was jaw dropping for yours truly.
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post #20597 of 21437 Old 06-13-2014, 07:19 PM
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Those same speakers were my first purchase several years ago! It's been a whirlwind since then, but I sold those to a buddy and are still ridiculously impressed with their ability and looks



The emmy driver has enough xmax to theoretically get some decent midbass, being basically equivalent to a single 15". It's not the need of more xmax, it is just a design preference.



You know, coach will have his pair only 2 short hours away from here in a few weeks, we could probably make that showdown happen
Give it a month. I am getting surgery in 2 weeks. I was postponed. I don't want to miss it.
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post #20598 of 21437 Old 06-13-2014, 07:22 PM
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But they don't show up as images, rather they show up as a link (at least on my phone they do).
Mine show up as a thumbnail? I read on the gripe page that you have to wrap the [IMG] [/IMG] tags around the picture or link. However mine just show up as a thumbnail ?
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post #20599 of 21437 Old 06-13-2014, 07:24 PM
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Good luck man no timeframe quite yet on another g2g or anything, and I am wide As% open right now at work and such so I will welcome a slightly more chill schedule after summer
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post #20600 of 21437 Old 06-13-2014, 07:30 PM
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Good luck man no timeframe quite yet on another g2g or anything, and I am wide As% open right now at work and such so I will welcome a slightly more chill schedule after summer
I thought about doing something in August when my theater is done. I more or less thought about a small BBQ GTG for some of the locals. You would be more than welcome, however I know it is a haul and would certainly not really be a big event or maybe it might
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post #20601 of 21437 Old 06-14-2014, 08:59 AM
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But they don't show up as images, rather they show up as a link (at least on my phone they do).
Mine show up as a thumbnail? I read on the gripe page that you have to wrap the [IMG] [/IMG] tags around the picture or link. However mine just show up as a thumbnail ?
On my phone they do...hope they get this fixed. I hate to click on links each time to see the image. Painful...but huddle also sucked on mobile devices at first so I am not throwing in the towel.
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post #20602 of 21437 Old 06-14-2014, 09:33 AM
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Good luck man no timeframe quite yet on another g2g or anything, and I am wide As% open right now at work and such so I will welcome a slightly more chill schedule after summer
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But they don't show up as images, rather they show up as a link (at least on my phone they do).
Mine show up as a thumbnail? I read on the gripe page that you have to wrap the [IMG] [/IMG] tags around the picture or link. However mine just show up as a thumbnail ?
On my phone they do...hope they get this fixed. I hate to click on links each time to see the image. Painful...but huddle also sucked on mobile devices at first so I am not throwing in the towel.
I see I'm sorry. I read it wrong. You are seeing a link vs the picture. I was talking about posting a link. I would say if your having problems on your phone, goto the bottom of the page and click on the "Desktop" viewer vs the "mobile" You will see the forum as you would at home on your desk top. Look at the very bottom of the page.

They are fixing stuff day by day. I see little blue arrows now to goto the last post. They will get it right, just take some time.
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post #20603 of 21437 Old 06-14-2014, 03:34 PM
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I didn't realize the LP's could potentially have less mid bass.

What sub do you have and can you cross at say 100 or 120? Provided the sub is in the front of the room. Or do some MBM's like dlbeck is doing with his set up.
I have 3 LMS 5400s with 2 up front and 1 in the back right. I'm either going to add my two UXL-18s to the mix or sell them and get a single SI HS24.

So with my 3 LMS 5400s, I could definitely take them up a bit as they are very clean. The issue will be localization but I've tried them up to a 24/48 slope crossover at 150Hz. But I was in a hurry and didn't get the handoff between the 212s and subs clean as I didn't like the sound. I'll try again when I have time to integrate them better using the MiniDSP NanoAVR.
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post #20604 of 21437 Old 06-14-2014, 05:18 PM
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I didn't realize the LP's could potentially have less mid bass.

What sub do you have and can you cross at say 100 or 120? Provided the sub is in the front of the room. Or do some MBM's like dlbeck is doing with his set up.
I have 3 LMS 5400s with 2 up front and 1 in the back right. I'm either going to add my two UXL-18s to the mix or sell them and get a single SI HS24.

So with my 3 LMS 5400s, I could definitely take them up a bit as they are very clean. The issue will be localization but I've tried them up to a 24/48 slope crossover at 150Hz. But I was in a hurry and didn't get the handoff between the 212s and subs clean as I didn't like the sound. I'll try again when I have time to integrate them better using the MiniDSP NanoAVR.
Is it possible with that MiniDSP to only route the 150 and below to the front two and leave the rear one 80 and below? That could help with the localization. I know you already realize this but just thinking out loud here.

I may need to look into some form of outboard dsp as well if I find my Denon 4311 can't give me what I need to integrate a balancing sub with my OS. I have a little Rythmik F12SE that could work given the right gain controls and if I don't ask it to play low or loud. But I am skeptical so I might end up going DIY 18'' as you have with your UXL setup.
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post #20605 of 21437 Old 06-14-2014, 06:18 PM
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Kind of a Debbie Downer post. I am sorry to post this.

I recently received 3 228HTs in black oak veneer and 4 Slant 8s in black satin finish. My retirement speaker system.
Unlike most here, my usage is in a traditional multi-use living room as I don't have a spare room for a theater.
Using them with the dual Seaton Submersives master-slave units.

Just got the 228s set up and played my first movie last night. The Slant8s have not been mounted yet. No complaints on sound quality and will need more time to break them in and fine tune my layout.

The downer part is the cabinets on the JTRs. To be fair, these were ordered at the end of the year to beat the price increases and I am sure Jeff and the cabinet shop were really cranking out product to get caught back up. Would be no complaint if used in a theater room but in a living room the speakers get looked at quite closely. The black satin finish on the Slant 8s is extremely soft. Takes just a very light pressure from a finger nail to mark the finish and show as scratches. I mean just drag the back of your fingers across the finish and it leaves marks. Also the plywood joints all show through the finish as they are not sanded smooth and flat. There are scratches in the finish just from getting them out of the shipping boxes. Would have thought the finish would have hardened by now as they arrived about 10 weeks ago and I just now got them out. Thinking I will remove the drivers, sand and repaint them myself. While I like the smooth satin finish I am not sure it was worth the extra $ for that. Wish I could have seen and touched the standard finish before ordering. I ordered the satin finish to be able to paint them in the future to match wall colors if needed.
One of the 228HTs with the black oak veneer on one side have quite a few runs in the finish coat - whatever that was. Lacquer maybe? No easy way to fix that. Quite hard to see with the black finish. Going to leave it alone as the one side can be positioned where no one else will ever see it. Luckily the room is fairly dark so only shows up when the overhead lights are on.

Was under the impression that the same cabinet company did the Seaton speakers and JTRs. My Submersives have a perfect finish - no blemishes that I have found at all.

I don't have an expensive home or a fancy living room so I can live with these for the sound. If you are ordering veneered speakers, I would ask Jeff to give them a really good look-over prior to shipping. Think I just got caught in the end of year rush. Many others here have ordered custom finishes and I don't recall anyone else commenting on not being happy.

Last edited by PeterK; 06-16-2014 at 12:07 PM.
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post #20606 of 21437 Old 06-14-2014, 08:52 PM
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Hey guys, does anyone know of a furniture store in Washington, D.C. that carries a lot of home theater seating? I'm thinking about buying some seats but don't want to buy blind. I've tried some palliser seats in KC but I want to see what else is out there. Thanks!
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Carp...are you going to be back in the DC area?
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post #20608 of 21437 Old 06-14-2014, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by jedimastergrant View Post
Is it possible with that MiniDSP to only route the 150 and below to the front two and leave the rear one 80 and below? That could help with the localization. I know you already realize this but just thinking out loud here.

I may need to look into some form of outboard dsp as well if I find my Denon 4311 can't give me what I need to integrate a balancing sub with my OS. I have a little Rythmik F12SE that could work given the right gain controls and if I don't ask it to play low or loud. But I am skeptical so I might end up going DIY 18'' as you have with your UXL setup.
JMG - That's a good idea that I hadn't thought of. I actually have 2 MiniDSPs, the NanoAVR and the 10x10HD. The NanoAVR is a 7.1 HDMI based DSP that inserts between your Bluray player and receiver/preamp. I bought that as it is cheaper than the 10x10HD and has a 10ch parametric EQ for each of the 7 speakers plus the .1 sub channel I want to save most of the 10x10HD since I want to use it primarily for distributed audio (zones with subs). Since the NanoAVR only outputs the .1 LFE channel, I'll have to use 2 channels on the 10x10HD (or I could buy a MiniDSP 2x4). So I could use 1 channel of the 10x10HD for the front subs crossed over much higher than the rear sub using the 2nd channel. Thanks!

David
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post #20609 of 21437 Old 06-14-2014, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
Hey guys, does anyone know of a furniture store in Washington, D.C. that carries a lot of home theater seating? I'm thinking about buying some seats but don't want to buy blind. I've tried some palliser seats in KC but I want to see what else is out there. Thanks!
Ask Brolic Beast (Matt) Carp. He was from there I think. Could be wrong but I swore I remember him saying so in a PM once.
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post #20610 of 21437 Old 06-14-2014, 11:32 PM
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Kind of a Debbie Downer post. Lots of fan-boys here so I am sorry to post this.

I recently received 3 228HTs in black oak veneer and 4 Slant 8s in black satin finish. My retirement speaker system.
Unlike most here, my usage is in a traditional multi-use living room as I don't have a spare room for a theater.
Using them with the dual Seaton Submersives master-slave units.

Just got the 228s set up and played my first movie last night. The Slant8s have not been mounted yet. No complaints on sound quality and will need more time to break them in and fine tune my layout.

The downer part is the cabinets on the JTRs. Would be no complaint if used in a theater room but in a living room the speakers get looked at quite closely. The black satin finish on the Slant 8s is extremely soft. Takes just a very light pressure from a finger nail to mark the finish and show as scratches. I mean just drag the back of your fingers across the finish and it leaves marks. Also the plywood joints all show through the finish as they are not sanded smooth and flat. There are scratches in the finish just from getting them out of the shipping boxes. Would have thought the finish would have hardened by now as they arrived about 10 weeks ago and I just now got them out. Thinking I will remove the drivers, sand and repaint them myself. Was not worth the extra $100 per cabinet for that.
The 228HTs with the black oak veneer have quite a few runs in the finish coat - whatever that was. Lacquer maybe? No easy way to fix that. Guess I could sand them down lightly, repaint and recoat myself. Luckily the room is fairly dark so only shows up when the overhead lights are on. That was an extra $200 per cabinet.

Was under the impression that the same cabinet company did the Seaton speakers and JTRs. My Submersives have a perfect finish - no blemishes that I have found at all.

I don't have an expensive home or a fancy living room so I can live with these for the sound. If you are considering the JTRs for a nice living room you maybe better off spending the extra money on the Seatons to get the better finish.
Yea I would be unhappy for sure. Maybe they got out somehow without Jeff QC-ing them? Assistant boxed them up in a hurry? Just random thoughts. My two black Maple Seaton Submersives are perfect.
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