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Old 07-01-2014, 10:33 AM
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It wouldn't surprise me if the 212 and 215 have slightly different voicing via the crossover and different horn. Is the 215RM an option? This has me concerned as I can't fit the 215RM as a center and wouldnt want slightly different voicing.
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Old 07-01-2014, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
It wouldn't surprise me if the 212 and 215 have slightly different voicing via the crossover and different horn. Is the 215RM an option? This has me concerned as I can't fit the 215RM as a center and wouldnt want slightly different voicing.
Custom center.
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Old 07-01-2014, 10:50 AM
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You guys are making too big of a deal over the different speakers. Even though the horns are different, at the end of the day, it's the same driver and used in pretty much the same manner as the 212's. So unless anyone has actually heard the 215's being used with a 212 or similar, their opinion is moot.
I'd bet once Carp gets over " OMG they are different" and just enjoys it all, it will be an after though in a day or 2. The "what if's" are the cancer of the audio world, it just constantly eats at you. I used to be worried about it all but in the last year or so, I've come to realize that it's pointless to worry about such trivial things and just enjoy.

Totally flat response etc is only to impress others on forums, I've never been in a HT that was totally flat that I've enjoyed at all. The sound is boring and stale IMO. After setting up countless systems, not one person... ever.... has had me do the system flat once they've heard how much fun it can really be. I know there will always be the " the way the film was intended to sound" garbage that people cling to but at the end of the day, who gives a flying crap lol.
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Old 07-01-2014, 11:01 AM
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That and the fact that most meets starting height was around 2 meters. In college they never told us the heights in feet/inches so I had to learn/memorize all the metric conversions from 2.0 meters to 2.45 which is the world record. My best was 2.25.
Wow, what a jumper you were, particularly for a "short" guy.
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Old 07-01-2014, 11:21 AM
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Wow, what a jumper you were, particularly for a "short" guy.
Thanks

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I'd bet once Carp gets over " OMG they are different" and just enjoys it all, it will be an after though in a day or 2. .

Nathan is right, and ^ is another reason why I'm not worried about going AT right away.

However, my lacking surrounds/and or their position is something that will have to be addressed at some point.
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Old 07-01-2014, 11:22 AM
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Old 07-01-2014, 11:31 AM
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But they do sound different!!
Coach and I will be able to compare the 212s to the 215RT and 215RM soon enough.
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Old 07-01-2014, 11:34 AM
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But they do sound different!!
Nate is right but ... an inexpensive test would be to put the 212 in the vertical orientation and see if you still notice a difference.
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Old 07-01-2014, 11:54 AM
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Nate is right but ... an inexpensive test would be to put the 212 in the vertical orientation and see if you still notice a difference.
I noticed a difference when I placed my 228 center vertically. Eventually I will have an AT screen, for now I keep my 228 upright on the floor angled up a bit.

Midbass seemed to improve doing this. Never took a measurement though....
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Old 07-01-2014, 11:55 AM
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Coach and I will be able to compare the 212s to the 215RT and 215RM soon enough.
Should be fun....not as much fun as getting them into the room.
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Old 07-01-2014, 12:48 PM
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But they do sound different!!
I agree they do sound slightly different but IMO, it's more of the way the of the bass, not the CD. the 215 sounds fuller than the 212. Having it on it's side does make it also sound a bit more different. It's just a compromise that you have to deal with until the time you go to a AT screen.

Believe me, you won't even notice it in a few days once the ocd subsides
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Old 07-01-2014, 02:25 PM
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I agree they do sound slightly different but IMO, it's more of the way the of the bass, not the CD. the 215 sounds fuller than the 212. Having it on it's side does make it also sound a bit more different. It's just a compromise that you have to deal with until the time you go to a AT screen.

Believe me, you won't even notice it in a few days once the ocd subsides
I hope that's how it works out for Carp. However, in my own experience, whenever I've "heard" an imperfection in my system, I can't "unhear" it. In fact, the more I listen, the more I hear the imperfection, and the more it distracts and annoys me.

I remember when I had a horizontal CC mounted below my screen. I was in blissful heaven... until I went to pepar's place and heard his system with an AT screen and 3rd identical speaker behind the screen. I came back home and immediately "heard" my CC below the screen. From that point on, I could hardly enjoy my system. Voices originated from below the screen instead of locking up with the on-screen image. I found myself slouching down in my chair, trying to get the CC speaker closer to ear level, and to the "correct" level for lock-up with the visual image. In addition, sounds that "panned" across the front soundstage changed pitch and position throughout the pan. That was probably the thing I found most distracting. It negatively impacted my enjoyment of my system. I was focusing on the imperfection, and I was distracted from the actual viewing of the movie... until I replaced the screen with an AT screen, and the CC with an identical, vertical speaker.

The same thing happened with my old Sony HS51 projector. It had a dynamic iris, and I thought it looked fine... until someone, (I think it was pepar again), who pointed out the "black bars" on a 2.35:1 movie pulsing from black to gray as the average light levels of the image changed. Once he pointed it out, and I could see it, I could never "un-see" it. I would focus more on the black bars that I did on the image. It drove me crazy. The only way to fix the problem was to go to a 2.35:1 screen with an anamorphic lens... which is what I did. No more black bars on 2.35:1 content, and no more pulsing of those black bars.

As I said, I hope Carp gets to the point where he can ignore the difference in sound between his L/R's and his CC. It will be much better for him if he can. Myself... I could never do that.

Craig
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Old 07-01-2014, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
I hope that's how it works out for Carp. However, in my own experience, whenever I've "heard" an imperfection in my system, I can't "unhear" it. In fact, the more I listen, the more I hear the imperfection, and the more it distracts and annoys me.

I remember when I had a horizontal CC mounted below my screen. I was in blissful heaven... until I went to pepar's place and heard his system with an AT screen and 3rd identical speaker behind the screen. I came back home and immediately "heard" my CC below the screen. From that point on, I could hardly enjoy my system. Voices originated from below the screen instead of locking up with the on-screen image. I found myself slouching down in my chair, trying to get the CC speaker closer to ear level, and to the "correct" level for lock-up with the visual image. In addition, sounds that "panned" across the front soundstage changed pitch and position throughout the pan. That was probably the thing I found most distracting. It negatively impacted my enjoyment of my system. I was focusing on the imperfection, and I was distracted from the actual viewing of the movie... until I replaced the screen with an AT screen, and the CC with an identical, vertical speaker.

The same thing happened with my old Sony HS51 projector. It had a dynamic iris, and I thought it looked fine... until someone, (I think it was pepar again), who pointed out the "black bars" on a 2.35:1 movie pulsing from black to gray as the average light levels of the image changed. Once he pointed it out, and I could see it, I could never "un-see" it. I would focus more on the black bars that I did on the image. It drove me crazy. The only way to fix the problem was to go to a 2.35:1 screen with an anamorphic lens... which is what I did. No more black bars on 2.35:1 content, and no more pulsing of those black bars.

As I said, I hope Carp gets to the point where he can ignore the difference in sound between his L/R's and his CC. It will be much better for him if he can. Myself... I could never do that.

Craig
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Old 07-01-2014, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
I hope that's how it works out for Carp. However, in my own experience, whenever I've "heard" an imperfection in my system, I can't "unhear" it. In fact, the more I listen, the more I hear the imperfection, and the more it distracts and annoys me.

I remember when I had a horizontal CC mounted below my screen. I was in blissful heaven... until I went to pepar's place and heard his system with an AT screen and 3rd identical speaker behind the screen. I came back home and immediately "heard" my CC below the screen. From that point on, I could hardly enjoy my system. Voices originated from below the screen instead of locking up with the on-screen image. I found myself slouching down in my chair, trying to get the CC speaker closer to ear level, and to the "correct" level for lock-up with the visual image. In addition, sounds that "panned" across the front soundstage changed pitch and position throughout the pan. That was probably the thing I found most distracting. It negatively impacted my enjoyment of my system. I was focusing on the imperfection, and I was distracted from the actual viewing of the movie... until I replaced the screen with an AT screen, and the CC with an identical, vertical speaker.

The same thing happened with my old Sony HS51 projector. It had a dynamic iris, and I thought it looked fine... until someone, (I think it was pepar again), who pointed out the "black bars" on a 2.35:1 movie pulsing from black to gray as the average light levels of the image changed. Once he pointed it out, and I could see it, I could never "un-see" it. I would focus more on the black bars that I did on the image. It drove me crazy. The only way to fix the problem was to go to a 2.35:1 screen with an anamorphic lens... which is what I did. No more black bars on 2.35:1 content, and no more pulsing of those black bars.

As I said, I hope Carp gets to the point where he can ignore the difference in sound between his L/R's and his CC. It will be much better for him if he can. Myself... I could never do that.

Craig
I'd say this aligns with your signature quite aptly. Also--Pepar has cost you some serious $! lol.
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Old 07-01-2014, 07:28 PM
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Question Question from new owner of 228 HT.

Hi. I would like people to chime in. I just received my 3 228 HT and would like some advice from owners of the speakers. I have a 54 " plasma mounted 46" from floor to bottom of screen. Should I mount all three vertically (this would lower soundstage by at least a foot.) If I mounted the left and right with the horn at seated ear height and mounted the centre horizontally the horns would end up at the same height of 39".

Thanks again
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Old 07-01-2014, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
I hope that's how it works out for Carp. However, in my own experience, whenever I've "heard" an imperfection in my system, I can't "unhear" it. In fact, the more I listen, the more I hear the imperfection, and the more it distracts and annoys me.

I remember when I had a horizontal CC mounted below my screen. I was in blissful heaven... until I went to pepar's place and heard his system with an AT screen and 3rd identical speaker behind the screen. I came back home and immediately "heard" my CC below the screen. From that point on, I could hardly enjoy my system. Voices originated from below the screen instead of locking up with the on-screen image. I found myself slouching down in my chair, trying to get the CC speaker closer to ear level, and to the "correct" level for lock-up with the visual image. In addition, sounds that "panned" across the front soundstage changed pitch and position throughout the pan. That was probably the thing I found most distracting. It negatively impacted my enjoyment of my system. I was focusing on the imperfection, and I was distracted from the actual viewing of the movie... until I replaced the screen with an AT screen, and the CC with an identical, vertical speaker.

The same thing happened with my old Sony HS51 projector. It had a dynamic iris, and I thought it looked fine... until someone, (I think it was pepar again), who pointed out the "black bars" on a 2.35:1 movie pulsing from black to gray as the average light levels of the image changed. Once he pointed it out, and I could see it, I could never "un-see" it. I would focus more on the black bars that I did on the image. It drove me crazy. The only way to fix the problem was to go to a 2.35:1 screen with an anamorphic lens... which is what I did. No more black bars on 2.35:1 content, and no more pulsing of those black bars.

As I said, I hope Carp gets to the point where he can ignore the difference in sound between his L/R's and his CC. It will be much better for him if he can. Myself... I could never do that.

Craig

If I was as picky about movies as I am 2 channel music I would probably be calling Jeff right now!! Fortunately audio with movies isn't as big of a priority (by that I mean the I care more about movie audio more than 99% of the population but it still pales in comparison to stereo ).

I can't tell that voices come from below the screen when I am sitting upright. Unfortunately I like to fully recline - and my lazy boy love seat reclines WAY back - and then I can tell for sure. However, that problem already existed before I got the 215's.

I need to take my friend Luke Kamp's (avs last name) advice and realize I'll be in this room for a LONG time and I don't need to make everything perfect immediately - it can be a slow process over time. PATIENCE!!!
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Old 07-01-2014, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by sleepyhead View Post
Hi. I would like people to chime in. I just received my 3 228 HT and would like some advice from owners of the speakers. I have a 54 " plasma mounted 46" from floor to bottom of screen. Should I mount all three vertically (this would lower soundstage by at least a foot.) If I mounted the left and right with the horn at seated ear height and mounted the centre horizontally the horns would end up at the same height of 39".

Thanks again

I would put the center horizonal. If you are like me, you are the only one in your house that will notice slight differences in audio quality so I would rather have all 3 compression drivers at the same height and sit in the sweet spot and no one else will notice or care if there are any compromises in the audio off axis.


Full disclosure - I say this as a guy that has the center CD way lower than the left and right - but still, if I were in your situation ^ is what I would do.
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Old 07-01-2014, 07:42 PM
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I was just going to suggest the same thing as Carp, I would have the L&R vertical and run the center channel horizontal aimed at ear level. I've found with my 228HT's you want the compression driver ear height or slightly higher.
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Old 07-01-2014, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepyhead View Post
Hi. I would like people to chime in. I just received my 3 228 HT and would like some advice from owners of the speakers. I have a 54 " plasma mounted 46" from floor to bottom of screen. Should I mount all three vertically (this would lower soundstage by at least a foot.) If I mounted the left and right with the horn at seated ear height and mounted the centre horizontally the horns would end up at the same height of 39".

Thanks again
I originally had my 228 horizontal. The CD was a few inches lower than the L/R. I moved it to be vertical, about 2 inches off the floor angled up slightly so the CD hits my right at ear level. I very much prefer the way it sounds in this orientation. Midbass sounds cleaner. I wish I would have taken some measurements.

JTR (3 215 RT, 5 212HTR, 2 Growlers, 4 S2's)
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Old 07-02-2014, 06:20 AM
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Carp... when you watch stuff down stairs, are you always with someone that cares about audio? or almost never?

If almost never... try setting the JTR 215RT's to do a phantom center, you may never use the 212HT again. Just make sure you sit in the sweet spot.
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Old 07-02-2014, 06:26 AM
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What a lot of people on the forum don't realize is the center channel is for our own OCD, and 99% of the general public would not care if the actors voices are anchored to the center of the screen.

I did a test to find out this is true...

I had a couple people come over that knew my setup very well, and I turned off the center channel and did a phantom center. I even have them sitting off to the side and I then asked if they noticed anything different with my sound then previous times they heard the system, and they all said no...

Carp, next time you are with someone that really knows your theater, try this without telling them, have them sit off to one side and not centered, and ask them if they notice anything different or wrong with the sound and voices... I bet they will say nothing is wrong. You may only hear them say how awesome the new speakers sound.


All I am trying to say is Phantom can be the next best setup if you can't get an identical speaker for the center channel. Try it an you may be able to sell the 212HT and get a new projector.

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Old 07-02-2014, 07:07 AM
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Carp... when you watch stuff down stairs, are you always with someone that cares about audio? or almost never?

If almost never... try setting the JTR 215RT's to do a phantom center, you may never use the 212HT again. Just make sure you sit in the sweet spot.
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What a lot of people on the forum don't realize is the center channel is for our own OCD, and 99% of the general public would not care if the actors voices are anchored to the center of the screen.

I did a test to find out this is true...

I had a couple people come over that knew my setup very well, and I turned off the center channel and did a phantom center. I even have them sitting off to the side and I then asked if they noticed anything different with my sound then previous times they heard the system, and they all said no...

Carp, next time you are with someone that really knows your theater, try this without telling them, have them sit off to one side and not centered, and ask them if they notice anything different or wrong with the sound and voices... I bet they will say nothing is wrong. You may only hear them say how awesome the new speakers sound.


All I am trying to say is Phantom can be the next best setup if you can't get an identical speaker for the center channel. Try it an you may be able to sell the 212HT and get a new projector.
I concur, with constant directivity speakers there is a very strong phantom center. I had a hard time convincing people that voices were not eminating from my 18" sub that is centered between my front speakers. Based on your "eyes" you would swear the sub is playing full-range.

Definately worth giving a try.

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Old 07-02-2014, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
Carp... when you watch stuff down stairs, are you always with someone that cares about audio? or almost never?

If almost never... try setting the JTR 215RT's to do a phantom center, you may never use the 212HT again. Just make sure you sit in the sweet spot.

I'll try it, and it's a good idea for sure. I tried it with the 212's and didn't like it. Well, saying I didn't like it isn't exactly accurate, it's just that when I A/B'd turning on and off the center I preferred the center on every time even with sitting in the sweet spot.

The KC AVS guys care about the audio for sure, but yeah most people that come over wouldn't notice it much.

I'll let you know how it goes.
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Old 07-02-2014, 11:04 AM
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It looks like you take a good amount of time setting up, but this will also help you determine if the speakers are perfectly aligned as voices should come from directly in front of you if you are centered between the speakers. If not, one speaker may be toed in slightly different or maybe slightly louder then the other.

I would be very very surprised if you prefer the 212HT over the phantom center.

Listen to scene panning, listen to voicing...

close your eyes as you do it and you will notice more as vision eats up a lot of our total senses.
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Old 07-02-2014, 11:08 AM
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I also recommend anyone listening to 2 channel music to turn off the lights and/or close your eyes when listening to music... it can be a very emotional experience.

I love it when I feel moved after a song I enjoy.
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Old 07-02-2014, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepyhead View Post
Hi. I would like people to chime in. I just received my 3 228 HT and would like some advice from owners of the speakers. I have a 54 " plasma mounted 46" from floor to bottom of screen. Should I mount all three vertically (this would lower soundstage by at least a foot.) If I mounted the left and right with the horn at seated ear height and mounted the centre horizontally the horns would end up at the same height of 39".

Thanks again
Just note that if you change your speakers around, be sure and rotate your horns if you do so. Be sure they are in the right position.
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Old 07-02-2014, 01:15 PM
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Yeah those pics are better carp!

I used to high jump in high school and I was embarrassed to say how high (or low).

The phantom center is a great idea. I find it hard to tell but usually I prefer having the center channel.
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Old 07-02-2014, 01:18 PM
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Carp, I'll loan you my phantom center for a few weeks. If you like it, it is only $1000. You can then sell the 212HT and save some money.
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Old 07-02-2014, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
Carp, I'll loan you my phantom center for a few weeks. If you like it, it is only $1000. You can then sell the 212HT and save some money.
Speaking of that DD, I was thinking of you when reading about phantom centers. I noticed in Dlbeck's theater that you used JRiver/Audiolense to spread a percentage of the surround/rear signal to different speakers. Would you consider that for the fronts at all; .25 of center to left and .25 of center to right? Not a phantom center but having 100% on the center and then having the left and right get a small percentage of the center signal as well. Was wondering if that would be a more encompassing sound or an annoyance.
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Old 07-02-2014, 01:41 PM
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Not DD... but that would be an annoyance as a person's voice would become all encompassing. Think Voice of god type sound.

You do "not" want to have a dedicated center channel and also route that information into the mains. Even at a .25 % ratio.

If you have no center channel it works (AKA Phantom Center), but not with a center channel.

I have never tried it personally, but that's the effect you get when "front wides" take in voice from the front left or front right speaker.
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