Official JTR speaker thread - Page 698 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #20911 of 30542 Old 07-02-2014, 12:18 PM
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Carp, I'll loan you my phantom center for a few weeks. If you like it, it is only $1000. You can then sell the 212HT and save some money.
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post #20912 of 30542 Old 07-02-2014, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
Carp, I'll loan you my phantom center for a few weeks. If you like it, it is only $1000. You can then sell the 212HT and save some money.
Speaking of that DD, I was thinking of you when reading about phantom centers. I noticed in Dlbeck's theater that you used JRiver/Audiolense to spread a percentage of the surround/rear signal to different speakers. Would you consider that for the fronts at all; .25 of center to left and .25 of center to right? Not a phantom center but having 100% on the center and then having the left and right get a small percentage of the center signal as well. Was wondering if that would be a more encompassing sound or an annoyance.
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post #20913 of 30542 Old 07-02-2014, 12:41 PM
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Not DD... but that would be an annoyance as a person's voice would become all encompassing. Think Voice of god type sound.

You do "not" want to have a dedicated center channel and also route that information into the mains. Even at a .25 % ratio.

If you have no center channel it works (AKA Phantom Center), but not with a center channel.

I have never tried it personally, but that's the effect you get when "front wides" take in voice from the front left or front right speaker.
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post #20914 of 30542 Old 07-02-2014, 12:58 PM
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Thanks SOWK. Wondered about that. What you say makes sense.
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post #20915 of 30542 Old 07-02-2014, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Would you consider that for the fronts at all; .25 of center to left and .25 of center to right? Not a phantom center but having 100% on the center and then having the left and right get a small percentage of the center signal as well. Was wondering if that would be a more encompassing sound or an annoyance.
When the original is mixed, they already include some of the voices, etc. that are in the center channel into the left and right mains depending on how wide they want the mix. I would just leave it as is.

If you look up Blumlein Shuffling or Blumlein Mid/Side Shuffling, you will find stuff about how to expand a stereo signal to give it more width. A few years ago BSGT sold a qol Signal Completion Stage as an add-on device for $3,995. A mastering engineer later demonstrated that it was just using Blumlein Shuffling to widen the stereo surround field and you could do it for free with VST plugins. JRiver provides the same thing in their DSP under Effects > Surround Field. Its kind of fun to mess around with.
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post #20916 of 30542 Old 07-02-2014, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
What a lot of people on the forum don't realize is the center channel is for our own OCD, and 99% of the general public would not care if the actors voices are anchored to the center of the screen.

I did a test to find out this is true...

I had a couple people come over that knew my setup very well, and I turned off the center channel and did a phantom center. I even have them sitting off to the side and I then asked if they noticed anything different with my sound then previous times they heard the system, and they all said no...

Carp, next time you are with someone that really knows your theater, try this without telling them, have them sit off to one side and not centered, and ask them if they notice anything different or wrong with the sound and voices... I bet they will say nothing is wrong. You may only hear them say how awesome the new speakers sound.


All I am trying to say is Phantom can be the next best setup if you can't get an identical speaker for the center channel. Try it an you may be able to sell the 212HT and get a new projector.
Yea totally if you always sit in the sweet spot!!! I had phantom center for a little bit. But sat very close to dead center. When I got my CC I liked the voices dead center but now the sound is from below even though I have optimized it the best I can. When phantom the sound was up higher in the screen as my LR are both on top of Submersives on either side of my TV stand and CD is middle of screen.

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post #20917 of 30542 Old 07-02-2014, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
Carp, I'll loan you my phantom center for a few weeks. If you like it, it is only $1000. You can then sell the 212HT and save some money.
What kind of a friend are you? Carp, I will loan you my phantom speaker for nothing. Everybody is out to make a buck.
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post #20918 of 30542 Old 07-02-2014, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
What kind of a friend are you? Carp, I will loan you my phantom speaker for nothing. Everybody is out to make a buck.
Sheldon, I'll GIVE you my phantom CC... and I don't even want it back... ever.

Seriously, I can see a phantom CC being a good solution in your situation, at least until you get an AT screen an a 3rd 215RT.
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post #20919 of 30542 Old 07-02-2014, 08:02 PM
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Well, I went back a forth flipping through tv shows and movies on HBO. Using a phantom center gives a much BIGGER sound. It's pretty awesome acutally. However, there is something about having the center on that I like too. It gives a more specific spot from where dialog comes from.

After watching a bunch of scenes I've come to the conclusion that I like phantom better for actions scenes or scenes with music. But quieter scenes with dialog the center on does seem to anchor the voices to the screen a in a more pinpoint way.

Ehhh I'm not worried about anyway, I'm too busy being completely pumped about this upgrade for 2 channel music. It was so worth it - as much as I absolutely loved the 212's this is a whole other level.
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post #20920 of 30542 Old 07-02-2014, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
What kind of a friend are you? Carp, I will loan you my phantom speaker for nothing. Everybody is out to make a buck.
I really didn't want to loan my phantom center out. Was just using it tonight for the Phantom Center of the Opera Blu-ray. I knew somebody else would undercut me. Thanks.

By the way, where's the best place to position subtitles on foreign films when using a phantom center? It bugs me that the subtitles are below where the actual voices are coming from. Once you notice it it will never stop bugging you. I may just start using phantom subtitles, too.
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post #20921 of 30542 Old 07-02-2014, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
Well, I went back a forth flipping through tv shows and movies on HBO. Using a phantom center gives a much BIGGER sound. It's pretty awesome acutally. However, there is something about having the center on that I like too. It gives a more specific spot from where dialog comes from.

After watching a bunch of scenes I've come to the conclusion that I like phantom better for actions scenes or scenes with music. But quieter scenes with dialog the center on does seem to anchor the voices to the screen a in a more pinpoint way.

Ehhh I'm not worried about anyway, I'm too busy being completely pumped about this upgrade for 2 channel music. It was so worth it - as much as I absolutely loved the 212's this is a whole other level.
Sounds like someone is getting ready to sell his last remaining 212HT to help fund a 215RM.....lol
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post #20922 of 30542 Old 07-02-2014, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
I also recommend anyone listening to 2 channel music to turn off the lights and/or close your eyes when listening to music... it can be a very emotional experience.

I love it when I feel moved after a song I enjoy.

Oh yes, I do this all the time.
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post #20923 of 30542 Old 07-02-2014, 08:32 PM
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Here is a measurement comparison of the 212 and 215 from the sweet spot. Left channel only, no eq.





Obviously I bumped up the red line (215's) to match - I think I should have raised it a bit more to meet the black line (212's).




Luckily when I run both speakers together the bass frequency is vastly improved and smoothed out. Here is the bass with both 215's full range and some mild eq.





A couple of thing here. This is the bass ran flat, no boosting at all and both speakers together. Notice how low the frequency response goes to - 12.5 hz. Tuning is 18hz so I guess my room is giving me some nice gain. As I understand it that doesn't matter though, I still need to have a high pass filter at 17hz - that's what Jeff told me.

Also, if you compare the graph above with the graph with the first one you can see the bass drops off sooner in the first graph. It took me awhile today to figure out what was going on, turns out if I have some of the doors open in the basement I get flat to 16.5 hz, if I close all the doors it's flat to 12.5 hz.

Both graphs use 1/12th smoothing.
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post #20924 of 30542 Old 07-02-2014, 08:38 PM
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Have you tried 215's and subs together yet? Also glad to hear you are liking them so much! At least you know Rob and I were not just drinking the JTR koolaid LOL

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #20925 of 30542 Old 07-02-2014, 09:13 PM
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Have you tried 215's and subs together yet? Also glad to hear you are liking them so much! At least you know Rob and I were not just drinking the JTR koolaid LOL

I trusted you guys and you were right. I tried to not let myself think about the fact that I was spending that much money on speakers I had never heard before!! It was so nice to have a friend and avs member over today to check them out just to verify that it really is as big of an upgrade for 2 channel music as I think it is and I'm not crazy.



Yes I have tried the subs and speakers together. For music I don't know if I'll ever use the subs unless I'm going absolutely crazy for a demo.


The black line in all of the graphs is the 215's full range no subs.

The first one is an 80hz crossover on the 215's ran as small. I did have to tweak the distance settings on the 215's to get a good response:




215's small crossover at 50hz:





215's Large + Subs. For this I don't have to tweak the distance settings of the 215's at all... which is nice.... *bill murray voice*




Ick... terrible low end on the sealed subs. My avr drops like a rock as I get close to 10hz so someday that will get addressed. That is with the L/T on on the minidsp.



I'll probably use the subs for movies because... well... because they are there...

No, seriously I'll need to use them because I'll have have a 50hz or 80hz crossover on the 215's for now. The reason is I need a HPF on the 215's and if I use the inuke HPF it completely messes up the frequency response - much like Jonathan's ported caps when I tried to use a HPF on them when I was trying to integrate them with the sealed SI's. The caps also blended great until I used a HPF.


Here is what I mean. This was the BEST I could do with tweaking distance settings with the HPF ON:


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post #20926 of 30542 Old 07-02-2014, 09:31 PM
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New JTR owner

OK, time for a brief break from all the 215's (well-deserved, I'm sure) craziness... and yes, that's envy. If I only had the $$

Just pulled the trigger on 3 Triple 12HTs. Didn't have the funds for the Noesis 212s, let alone the 215s, and Jeff recommended the Triple 12s over the Noesis 228s because it's a 3 way speaker (better midrange) and has higher sensitivity. Now I just have to wait for delivery, then for the house to be finished so they have a nice place to go. I'm sure I'll hook them up before then though.

I'll be adding 4 surrounds and more subs down the road, but wanted to start off with a strong front stage. I currently have an SVS PB12-NSD in storage until the house is built.
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post #20927 of 30542 Old 07-02-2014, 09:35 PM
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OK, time for a brief break from all the 215's (well-deserved, I'm sure) craziness... and yes, that's envy. If I only had the $$

Just pulled the trigger on 3 Triple 12HTs. Didn't have the funds for the Noesis 212s, let alone the 215s, and Jeff recommended the Triple 12s over the Noesis 228s because it's a 3 way speaker (better midrange) and has higher sensitivity. Now I just have to wait for delivery, then for the house to be finished so they have a nice place to go. I'm sure I'll hook them up before then though.

I'll be adding 4 surrounds and more subs down the road, but wanted to start off with a strong front stage. I currently have an SVS PB12-NSD in storage until the house is built.


Hell yeah!! Nice kronin. Prepare for a kick a$$ sounding home theater!!!

Now comes the hard part, waiting.....

What are you going to use for surrounds?
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post #20928 of 30542 Old 07-02-2014, 09:42 PM
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What are you going to use for surrounds?
Depends on available funds at the time. Ideally, 4 S8s. I'll probably start with Volt 10s though and invest in one or two quality subs first (not sure how my SVS will fit in with anything else yet, so that's TBD). Considering I'm coming from RBH TK-8 in-walls at our old house, I'm sure this is gonna be quite a few steps up.

Those 215s look amazing! I'm super happy for you
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post #20929 of 30542 Old 07-02-2014, 09:46 PM
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Depends on available funds at the time. Ideally, 4 S8s. I'll probably start with Volt 10s though and invest in one or two quality subs first (not sure how my SVS will fit in with anything else yet, so that's TBD). Considering I'm coming from RBH TK-8 in-walls at our old house, I'm sure this is gonna be quite a few steps up.

Those 215s look amazing! I'm super happy for you
thanks man


I'm in the same boat as you, I need to replace my surrounds. It's going to be awhile but when I do save up it will be so tough not to buy the single 8's with the slim 7 inch profile. It's hard to believe how great they sound for how small they are.
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post #20930 of 30542 Old 07-02-2014, 09:55 PM
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thanks man


I'm in the same boat as you, I need to replace my surrounds. It's going to be awhile but when I do save up it will be so tough not to buy the single 8's with the slim 7 inch profile. It's hard to believe how great they sound for how small they are.
I think Erich is going to have his high end 8" coax ready for sale really soon, I know that's one that I have my eye on because I think at the very least you'll be able to get two of them for the price of a single S8.
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post #20931 of 30542 Old 07-02-2014, 09:57 PM
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I think Erich is going to have his high end 8" coax ready for sale really soon, I know that's one that I have my eye on because I think at the very least you'll be able to get two of them for the price of a single S8.

Cool, good to know. Beast is also planning on building some surrounds for people to buy too (Beastclops), I heard them at Gorilla's GTG and they were a BIG step up from the volt's IMO - not that I didn't like the volts.
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post #20932 of 30542 Old 07-02-2014, 10:00 PM
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As a pretty conservative home theater enthusiast myself. I have to say that the 215's just blew me away today. I went over to Carps house to have a quick listen and to kill sometime. I have always liked but not loved the 212's. Personally, I would still choose the 228's over the 212's. Call me crazy. But damn, if the 215's were not the best of the best for stereo music in Carps room. I am not sure I can even describe how much I enjoyed them. Before we started I was telling Carp how I just don't listen to music at home much anymore. If I had the 215's I am not sure I would ever stop. It was amazing to me how well I could hear every minute detail. If I had the money I would have been on the phone with Jeff after leaving Carps house. Instead I called Archaea and told him how crazy I had become.

Sorry to hype up the 215's even more than they already are. These are now the holly grail of speakers for me. Unfortunately, they are not something I would ever buy myself without winning the lottery first. But man, I am super jealous of guys that do.
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post #20933 of 30542 Old 07-02-2014, 10:02 PM
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Looks good carp! I could get by without subs if I had to but with just the 215's but they lack the impact of my nearfield subs that I love so much because of my crappy long room. For movies though, the 215's are good but to get the levels I want to watch in (when the wife and kid are away) they can't do it (not that I expected them to) but they are still really impressive. Jeff said like 1 cap per speaker, heck I've got 10 caps worth of output and still want more LOL

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post #20934 of 30542 Old 07-02-2014, 10:09 PM
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As a pretty conservative home theater enthusiast myself. I have to say that the 215's just blew me away today. I went over to Carps house to have a quick listen and to kill sometime. I have always liked but not loved the 212's. Personally, I would still choose the 228's over the 212's. Call me crazy. But damn, if the 215's were not the best of the best for stereo music in Carps room. I am not sure I can even describe how much I enjoyed them. Before we started I was telling Carp how I just don't listen to music at home much anymore. If I had the 215's I am not sure I would ever stop. It was amazing to me how well I could hear every minute detail. If I had the money I would have been on the phone with Jeff after leaving Carps house. Instead I called Archaea and told him how crazy I had become.

Sorry to hype up the 215's even more than they already are. These are now the holly grail of speakers for me. Unfortunately, they are not something I would ever buy myself without winning the lottery first. But man, I am super jealous of guys that do.


You were picking out some great tunes man, even though I wasn't in the sweet spot I was REALLY enjoying that especially since it was almost all new to me.
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post #20935 of 30542 Old 07-02-2014, 10:11 PM
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Looks good carp! I could get by without subs if I had to but with just the 215's but they lack the impact of my nearfield subs that I love so much because of my crappy long room. For movies though, the 215's are good but to get the levels I want to watch in (when the wife and kid are away) they can't do it (not that I expected them to) but they are still really impressive. Jeff said like 1 cap per speaker, heck I've got 10 caps worth of output and still want more LOL

For normal movie watching I would be fine, but if I want to do a demo or want to really crank a scene for myself - yeah the subs are a must.
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post #20936 of 30542 Old 07-02-2014, 10:13 PM
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Cool, good to know. Beast is also planning on building some surrounds for people to buy too (Beastclops), I heard them at Gorilla's GTG and they were a BIG step up from the volt's IMO - not that I didn't like the volts.

Yeah I've talked with beast about his surround build with the Beyma drivers, I'm waiting till Matt finished with the crossovers for them before I decide which to go with.
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post #20937 of 30542 Old 07-02-2014, 10:26 PM
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You were picking out some great tunes man, even though I wasn't in the sweet spot I was REALLY enjoying that especially since it was almost all new to me.
Yeah, I could have done that all day. I am really glad you kicked me out when you did. The timing was perfect. Crystal (my wife) asked what I thought about them for movies. I was like movies? MOVIES? talking about movies? Movies? sounding like jim mora talking about playoffs. We never tried any movies clips. But when your music sounds so good who needs movies?

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post #20938 of 30542 Old 07-02-2014, 10:33 PM
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Speaking of that DD, I was thinking of you when reading about phantom centers. I noticed in Dlbeck's theater that you used JRiver/Audiolense to spread a percentage of the surround/rear signal to different speakers. Would you consider that for the fronts at all; .25 of center to left and .25 of center to right? Not a phantom center but having 100% on the center and then having the left and right get a small percentage of the center signal as well. Was wondering if that would be a more encompassing sound or an annoyance.
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Not DD... but that would be an annoyance as a person's voice would become all encompassing. Think Voice of god type sound.
You do "not" want to have a dedicated center channel and also route that information into the mains. Even at a .25 % ratio.
If you have no center channel it works (AKA Phantom Center), but not with a center channel.
I have never tried it personally, but that's the effect you get when "front wides" take in voice from the front left or front right speaker.
By default, Denon AVR sends a small signal of center channel to the left&right speaker. Not sure about other manufacturers.
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post #20939 of 30542 Old 07-02-2014, 10:35 PM
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Yeah, I could have done that all day. I am really glad you kicked me out when you did. The timing was perfect. Crystal (my wife) asked what I thought about them for movies. I was like movies? MOVIES? talking about movies? Movies? sounding like jim mora talking about playoffs. We never tried any movies clips. But when your music sounds so good who needs movies?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3-eavMSBnk




I told you that you could stay! Just because I had to leave doesn't mean there shouldn't be someone sitting in the sweet spot going deaf.
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post #20940 of 30542 Old 07-02-2014, 11:33 PM
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Haha. Stich sure was excited about the 215ht when he called me tonight. It was the most riled up I've ever heard him. He's usually pretty low key. He needed to evangelize his desire for those big towers! . I'm looking forward to hearing them in your room carp!

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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