Official JTR speaker thread - Page 698 - AVS Forum
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post #20911 of 21486 Old 07-01-2014, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post
I hope that's how it works out for Carp. However, in my own experience, whenever I've "heard" an imperfection in my system, I can't "unhear" it. In fact, the more I listen, the more I hear the imperfection, and the more it distracts and annoys me.

I remember when I had a horizontal CC mounted below my screen. I was in blissful heaven... until I went to pepar's place and heard his system with an AT screen and 3rd identical speaker behind the screen. I came back home and immediately "heard" my CC below the screen. From that point on, I could hardly enjoy my system. Voices originated from below the screen instead of locking up with the on-screen image. I found myself slouching down in my chair, trying to get the CC speaker closer to ear level, and to the "correct" level for lock-up with the visual image. In addition, sounds that "panned" across the front soundstage changed pitch and position throughout the pan. That was probably the thing I found most distracting. It negatively impacted my enjoyment of my system. I was focusing on the imperfection, and I was distracted from the actual viewing of the movie... until I replaced the screen with an AT screen, and the CC with an identical, vertical speaker.

The same thing happened with my old Sony HS51 projector. It had a dynamic iris, and I thought it looked fine... until someone, (I think it was pepar again), who pointed out the "black bars" on a 2.35:1 movie pulsing from black to gray as the average light levels of the image changed. Once he pointed it out, and I could see it, I could never "un-see" it. I would focus more on the black bars that I did on the image. It drove me crazy. The only way to fix the problem was to go to a 2.35:1 screen with an anamorphic lens... which is what I did. No more black bars on 2.35:1 content, and no more pulsing of those black bars.

As I said, I hope Carp gets to the point where he can ignore the difference in sound between his L/R's and his CC. It will be much better for him if he can. Myself... I could never do that.

Craig
I'd say this aligns with your signature quite aptly. Also--Pepar has cost you some serious $! lol.
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post #20912 of 21486 Old 07-01-2014, 06:28 PM
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Question Question from new owner of 228 HT.

Hi. I would like people to chime in. I just received my 3 228 HT and would like some advice from owners of the speakers. I have a 54 " plasma mounted 46" from floor to bottom of screen. Should I mount all three vertically (this would lower soundstage by at least a foot.) If I mounted the left and right with the horn at seated ear height and mounted the centre horizontally the horns would end up at the same height of 39".

Thanks again
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post #20913 of 21486 Old 07-01-2014, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post
I hope that's how it works out for Carp. However, in my own experience, whenever I've "heard" an imperfection in my system, I can't "unhear" it. In fact, the more I listen, the more I hear the imperfection, and the more it distracts and annoys me.

I remember when I had a horizontal CC mounted below my screen. I was in blissful heaven... until I went to pepar's place and heard his system with an AT screen and 3rd identical speaker behind the screen. I came back home and immediately "heard" my CC below the screen. From that point on, I could hardly enjoy my system. Voices originated from below the screen instead of locking up with the on-screen image. I found myself slouching down in my chair, trying to get the CC speaker closer to ear level, and to the "correct" level for lock-up with the visual image. In addition, sounds that "panned" across the front soundstage changed pitch and position throughout the pan. That was probably the thing I found most distracting. It negatively impacted my enjoyment of my system. I was focusing on the imperfection, and I was distracted from the actual viewing of the movie... until I replaced the screen with an AT screen, and the CC with an identical, vertical speaker.

The same thing happened with my old Sony HS51 projector. It had a dynamic iris, and I thought it looked fine... until someone, (I think it was pepar again), who pointed out the "black bars" on a 2.35:1 movie pulsing from black to gray as the average light levels of the image changed. Once he pointed it out, and I could see it, I could never "un-see" it. I would focus more on the black bars that I did on the image. It drove me crazy. The only way to fix the problem was to go to a 2.35:1 screen with an anamorphic lens... which is what I did. No more black bars on 2.35:1 content, and no more pulsing of those black bars.

As I said, I hope Carp gets to the point where he can ignore the difference in sound between his L/R's and his CC. It will be much better for him if he can. Myself... I could never do that.

Craig

If I was as picky about movies as I am 2 channel music I would probably be calling Jeff right now!! Fortunately audio with movies isn't as big of a priority (by that I mean the I care more about movie audio more than 99% of the population but it still pales in comparison to stereo ).

I can't tell that voices come from below the screen when I am sitting upright. Unfortunately I like to fully recline - and my lazy boy love seat reclines WAY back - and then I can tell for sure. However, that problem already existed before I got the 215's.

I need to take my friend Luke Kamp's (avs last name) advice and realize I'll be in this room for a LONG time and I don't need to make everything perfect immediately - it can be a slow process over time. PATIENCE!!!
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post #20914 of 21486 Old 07-01-2014, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepyhead View Post
Hi. I would like people to chime in. I just received my 3 228 HT and would like some advice from owners of the speakers. I have a 54 " plasma mounted 46" from floor to bottom of screen. Should I mount all three vertically (this would lower soundstage by at least a foot.) If I mounted the left and right with the horn at seated ear height and mounted the centre horizontally the horns would end up at the same height of 39".

Thanks again

I would put the center horizonal. If you are like me, you are the only one in your house that will notice slight differences in audio quality so I would rather have all 3 compression drivers at the same height and sit in the sweet spot and no one else will notice or care if there are any compromises in the audio off axis.


Full disclosure - I say this as a guy that has the center CD way lower than the left and right - but still, if I were in your situation ^ is what I would do.
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post #20915 of 21486 Old 07-01-2014, 06:42 PM
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I was just going to suggest the same thing as Carp, I would have the L&R vertical and run the center channel horizontal aimed at ear level. I've found with my 228HT's you want the compression driver ear height or slightly higher.
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post #20916 of 21486 Old 07-01-2014, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepyhead View Post
Hi. I would like people to chime in. I just received my 3 228 HT and would like some advice from owners of the speakers. I have a 54 " plasma mounted 46" from floor to bottom of screen. Should I mount all three vertically (this would lower soundstage by at least a foot.) If I mounted the left and right with the horn at seated ear height and mounted the centre horizontally the horns would end up at the same height of 39".

Thanks again
I originally had my 228 horizontal. The CD was a few inches lower than the L/R. I moved it to be vertical, about 2 inches off the floor angled up slightly so the CD hits my right at ear level. I very much prefer the way it sounds in this orientation. Midbass sounds cleaner. I wish I would have taken some measurements.

3 - JTR 228's LCR (game room)
2 - DIY Sound Group V-8 Coaxials (game room)
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post #20917 of 21486 Old 07-02-2014, 05:20 AM
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Carp... when you watch stuff down stairs, are you always with someone that cares about audio? or almost never?

If almost never... try setting the JTR 215RT's to do a phantom center, you may never use the 212HT again. Just make sure you sit in the sweet spot.
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post #20918 of 21486 Old 07-02-2014, 05:26 AM
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What a lot of people on the forum don't realize is the center channel is for our own OCD, and 99% of the general public would not care if the actors voices are anchored to the center of the screen.

I did a test to find out this is true...

I had a couple people come over that knew my setup very well, and I turned off the center channel and did a phantom center. I even have them sitting off to the side and I then asked if they noticed anything different with my sound then previous times they heard the system, and they all said no...

Carp, next time you are with someone that really knows your theater, try this without telling them, have them sit off to one side and not centered, and ask them if they notice anything different or wrong with the sound and voices... I bet they will say nothing is wrong. You may only hear them say how awesome the new speakers sound.


All I am trying to say is Phantom can be the next best setup if you can't get an identical speaker for the center channel. Try it an you may be able to sell the 212HT and get a new projector.

Last edited by SOWK; 07-02-2014 at 05:30 AM.
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post #20919 of 21486 Old 07-02-2014, 06:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
Carp... when you watch stuff down stairs, are you always with someone that cares about audio? or almost never?

If almost never... try setting the JTR 215RT's to do a phantom center, you may never use the 212HT again. Just make sure you sit in the sweet spot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
What a lot of people on the forum don't realize is the center channel is for our own OCD, and 99% of the general public would not care if the actors voices are anchored to the center of the screen.

I did a test to find out this is true...

I had a couple people come over that knew my setup very well, and I turned off the center channel and did a phantom center. I even have them sitting off to the side and I then asked if they noticed anything different with my sound then previous times they heard the system, and they all said no...

Carp, next time you are with someone that really knows your theater, try this without telling them, have them sit off to one side and not centered, and ask them if they notice anything different or wrong with the sound and voices... I bet they will say nothing is wrong. You may only hear them say how awesome the new speakers sound.


All I am trying to say is Phantom can be the next best setup if you can't get an identical speaker for the center channel. Try it an you may be able to sell the 212HT and get a new projector.
I concur, with constant directivity speakers there is a very strong phantom center. I had a hard time convincing people that voices were not eminating from my 18" sub that is centered between my front speakers. Based on your "eyes" you would swear the sub is playing full-range.

Definately worth giving a try.

He who does not punish evil commands it to be done.  Leonardo DaVinci

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post #20920 of 21486 Old 07-02-2014, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
Carp... when you watch stuff down stairs, are you always with someone that cares about audio? or almost never?

If almost never... try setting the JTR 215RT's to do a phantom center, you may never use the 212HT again. Just make sure you sit in the sweet spot.

I'll try it, and it's a good idea for sure. I tried it with the 212's and didn't like it. Well, saying I didn't like it isn't exactly accurate, it's just that when I A/B'd turning on and off the center I preferred the center on every time even with sitting in the sweet spot.

The KC AVS guys care about the audio for sure, but yeah most people that come over wouldn't notice it much.

I'll let you know how it goes.
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post #20921 of 21486 Old 07-02-2014, 10:04 AM
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It looks like you take a good amount of time setting up, but this will also help you determine if the speakers are perfectly aligned as voices should come from directly in front of you if you are centered between the speakers. If not, one speaker may be toed in slightly different or maybe slightly louder then the other.

I would be very very surprised if you prefer the 212HT over the phantom center.

Listen to scene panning, listen to voicing...

close your eyes as you do it and you will notice more as vision eats up a lot of our total senses.
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post #20922 of 21486 Old 07-02-2014, 10:08 AM
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I also recommend anyone listening to 2 channel music to turn off the lights and/or close your eyes when listening to music... it can be a very emotional experience.

I love it when I feel moved after a song I enjoy.
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post #20923 of 21486 Old 07-02-2014, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepyhead View Post
Hi. I would like people to chime in. I just received my 3 228 HT and would like some advice from owners of the speakers. I have a 54 " plasma mounted 46" from floor to bottom of screen. Should I mount all three vertically (this would lower soundstage by at least a foot.) If I mounted the left and right with the horn at seated ear height and mounted the centre horizontally the horns would end up at the same height of 39".

Thanks again
Just note that if you change your speakers around, be sure and rotate your horns if you do so. Be sure they are in the right position.
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post #20924 of 21486 Old 07-02-2014, 12:15 PM
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Yeah those pics are better carp!

I used to high jump in high school and I was embarrassed to say how high (or low).

The phantom center is a great idea. I find it hard to tell but usually I prefer having the center channel.
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post #20925 of 21486 Old 07-02-2014, 12:18 PM
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Carp, I'll loan you my phantom center for a few weeks. If you like it, it is only $1000. You can then sell the 212HT and save some money.
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post #20926 of 21486 Old 07-02-2014, 12:27 PM
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Carp, I'll loan you my phantom center for a few weeks. If you like it, it is only $1000. You can then sell the 212HT and save some money.
Speaking of that DD, I was thinking of you when reading about phantom centers. I noticed in Dlbeck's theater that you used JRiver/Audiolense to spread a percentage of the surround/rear signal to different speakers. Would you consider that for the fronts at all; .25 of center to left and .25 of center to right? Not a phantom center but having 100% on the center and then having the left and right get a small percentage of the center signal as well. Was wondering if that would be a more encompassing sound or an annoyance.
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post #20927 of 21486 Old 07-02-2014, 12:41 PM
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Not DD... but that would be an annoyance as a person's voice would become all encompassing. Think Voice of god type sound.

You do "not" want to have a dedicated center channel and also route that information into the mains. Even at a .25 % ratio.

If you have no center channel it works (AKA Phantom Center), but not with a center channel.

I have never tried it personally, but that's the effect you get when "front wides" take in voice from the front left or front right speaker.
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post #20928 of 21486 Old 07-02-2014, 12:58 PM
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Thanks SOWK. Wondered about that. What you say makes sense.
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post #20929 of 21486 Old 07-02-2014, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Would you consider that for the fronts at all; .25 of center to left and .25 of center to right? Not a phantom center but having 100% on the center and then having the left and right get a small percentage of the center signal as well. Was wondering if that would be a more encompassing sound or an annoyance.
When the original is mixed, they already include some of the voices, etc. that are in the center channel into the left and right mains depending on how wide they want the mix. I would just leave it as is.

If you look up Blumlein Shuffling or Blumlein Mid/Side Shuffling, you will find stuff about how to expand a stereo signal to give it more width. A few years ago BSGT sold a qol Signal Completion Stage as an add-on device for $3,995. A mastering engineer later demonstrated that it was just using Blumlein Shuffling to widen the stereo surround field and you could do it for free with VST plugins. JRiver provides the same thing in their DSP under Effects > Surround Field. Its kind of fun to mess around with.
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post #20930 of 21486 Old 07-02-2014, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
What a lot of people on the forum don't realize is the center channel is for our own OCD, and 99% of the general public would not care if the actors voices are anchored to the center of the screen.

I did a test to find out this is true...

I had a couple people come over that knew my setup very well, and I turned off the center channel and did a phantom center. I even have them sitting off to the side and I then asked if they noticed anything different with my sound then previous times they heard the system, and they all said no...

Carp, next time you are with someone that really knows your theater, try this without telling them, have them sit off to one side and not centered, and ask them if they notice anything different or wrong with the sound and voices... I bet they will say nothing is wrong. You may only hear them say how awesome the new speakers sound.


All I am trying to say is Phantom can be the next best setup if you can't get an identical speaker for the center channel. Try it an you may be able to sell the 212HT and get a new projector.
Yea totally if you always sit in the sweet spot!!! I had phantom center for a little bit. But sat very close to dead center. When I got my CC I liked the voices dead center but now the sound is from below even though I have optimized it the best I can. When phantom the sound was up higher in the screen as my LR are both on top of Submersives on either side of my TV stand and CD is middle of screen.
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post #20931 of 21486 Old 07-02-2014, 02:01 PM
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Carp, I'll loan you my phantom center for a few weeks. If you like it, it is only $1000. You can then sell the 212HT and save some money.
What kind of a friend are you? Carp, I will loan you my phantom speaker for nothing. Everybody is out to make a buck.
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post #20932 of 21486 Old 07-02-2014, 05:45 PM
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What kind of a friend are you? Carp, I will loan you my phantom speaker for nothing. Everybody is out to make a buck.
Sheldon, I'll GIVE you my phantom CC... and I don't even want it back... ever.

Seriously, I can see a phantom CC being a good solution in your situation, at least until you get an AT screen an a 3rd 215RT.
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Well, I went back a forth flipping through tv shows and movies on HBO. Using a phantom center gives a much BIGGER sound. It's pretty awesome acutally. However, there is something about having the center on that I like too. It gives a more specific spot from where dialog comes from.

After watching a bunch of scenes I've come to the conclusion that I like phantom better for actions scenes or scenes with music. But quieter scenes with dialog the center on does seem to anchor the voices to the screen a in a more pinpoint way.

Ehhh I'm not worried about anyway, I'm too busy being completely pumped about this upgrade for 2 channel music. It was so worth it - as much as I absolutely loved the 212's this is a whole other level.
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post #20934 of 21486 Old 07-02-2014, 08:05 PM
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What kind of a friend are you? Carp, I will loan you my phantom speaker for nothing. Everybody is out to make a buck.
I really didn't want to loan my phantom center out. Was just using it tonight for the Phantom Center of the Opera Blu-ray. I knew somebody else would undercut me. Thanks.

By the way, where's the best place to position subtitles on foreign films when using a phantom center? It bugs me that the subtitles are below where the actual voices are coming from. Once you notice it it will never stop bugging you. I may just start using phantom subtitles, too.
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post #20935 of 21486 Old 07-02-2014, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
Well, I went back a forth flipping through tv shows and movies on HBO. Using a phantom center gives a much BIGGER sound. It's pretty awesome acutally. However, there is something about having the center on that I like too. It gives a more specific spot from where dialog comes from.

After watching a bunch of scenes I've come to the conclusion that I like phantom better for actions scenes or scenes with music. But quieter scenes with dialog the center on does seem to anchor the voices to the screen a in a more pinpoint way.

Ehhh I'm not worried about anyway, I'm too busy being completely pumped about this upgrade for 2 channel music. It was so worth it - as much as I absolutely loved the 212's this is a whole other level.
Sounds like someone is getting ready to sell his last remaining 212HT to help fund a 215RM.....lol

My Gear:

JTR Noesis 228HT (LCR)
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post #20936 of 21486 Old 07-02-2014, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
I also recommend anyone listening to 2 channel music to turn off the lights and/or close your eyes when listening to music... it can be a very emotional experience.

I love it when I feel moved after a song I enjoy.

Oh yes, I do this all the time.
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post #20937 of 21486 Old 07-02-2014, 08:32 PM
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Here is a measurement comparison of the 212 and 215 from the sweet spot. Left channel only, no eq.





Obviously I bumped up the red line (215's) to match - I think I should have raised it a bit more to meet the black line (212's).




Luckily when I run both speakers together the bass frequency is vastly improved and smoothed out. Here is the bass with both 215's full range and some mild eq.





A couple of thing here. This is the bass ran flat, no boosting at all and both speakers together. Notice how low the frequency response goes to - 12.5 hz. Tuning is 18hz so I guess my room is giving me some nice gain. As I understand it that doesn't matter though, I still need to have a high pass filter at 17hz - that's what Jeff told me.

Also, if you compare the graph above with the graph with the first one you can see the bass drops off sooner in the first graph. It took me awhile today to figure out what was going on, turns out if I have some of the doors open in the basement I get flat to 16.5 hz, if I close all the doors it's flat to 12.5 hz.

Both graphs use 1/12th smoothing.
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post #20938 of 21486 Old 07-02-2014, 08:38 PM
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Have you tried 215's and subs together yet? Also glad to hear you are liking them so much! At least you know Rob and I were not just drinking the JTR koolaid LOL

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #20939 of 21486 Old 07-02-2014, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
Have you tried 215's and subs together yet? Also glad to hear you are liking them so much! At least you know Rob and I were not just drinking the JTR koolaid LOL

I trusted you guys and you were right. I tried to not let myself think about the fact that I was spending that much money on speakers I had never heard before!! It was so nice to have a friend and avs member over today to check them out just to verify that it really is as big of an upgrade for 2 channel music as I think it is and I'm not crazy.



Yes I have tried the subs and speakers together. For music I don't know if I'll ever use the subs unless I'm going absolutely crazy for a demo.


The black line in all of the graphs is the 215's full range no subs.

The first one is an 80hz crossover on the 215's ran as small. I did have to tweak the distance settings on the 215's to get a good response:




215's small crossover at 50hz:





215's Large + Subs. For this I don't have to tweak the distance settings of the 215's at all... which is nice.... *bill murray voice*




Ick... terrible low end on the sealed subs. My avr drops like a rock as I get close to 10hz so someday that will get addressed. That is with the L/T on on the minidsp.



I'll probably use the subs for movies because... well... because they are there...

No, seriously I'll need to use them because I'll have have a 50hz or 80hz crossover on the 215's for now. The reason is I need a HPF on the 215's and if I use the inuke HPF it completely messes up the frequency response - much like Jonathan's ported caps when I tried to use a HPF on them when I was trying to integrate them with the sealed SI's. The caps also blended great until I used a HPF.


Here is what I mean. This was the BEST I could do with tweaking distance settings with the HPF ON:


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post #20940 of 21486 Old 07-02-2014, 09:31 PM
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New JTR owner

OK, time for a brief break from all the 215's (well-deserved, I'm sure) craziness... and yes, that's envy. If I only had the $$

Just pulled the trigger on 3 Triple 12HTs. Didn't have the funds for the Noesis 212s, let alone the 215s, and Jeff recommended the Triple 12s over the Noesis 228s because it's a 3 way speaker (better midrange) and has higher sensitivity. Now I just have to wait for delivery, then for the house to be finished so they have a nice place to go. I'm sure I'll hook them up before then though.

I'll be adding 4 surrounds and more subs down the road, but wanted to start off with a strong front stage. I currently have an SVS PB12-NSD in storage until the house is built.
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