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post #21091 of 36221 Old 07-10-2014, 06:01 PM
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I did some testing this morning on the inuke and wrote some numbers down but then I realized I couldn't compare that to the CV5000 since I was running the heavy hitting LFE scenes like How To Train Your Dragon etc. from the Scuba Steve disk. I used a HPF on the inuke and I won't be able to do that with the CV 5000.

So, I re-ran some music and a scene from the movie Avatar since I didn't think it is known for a lot of under 20hz bass.

I used the scene where he says, "these dumb bastards just aren't getting it, time to turn up the heat". There are some explosions after that and that's what I used to compare the amps.

So here is the comparison.


215's Full range no HPF. The numbers below are the exact volume where I saw the slightest flickering of the clip light, -.05 db's less on the master volume and no flickering of the clip light whatsoever.

CV 5000: +2.5
Inuke: -4


For music I picked a song by Pendulum called 9000 Miles. There is some really nice bass around the 2:00 minute mark so that's what I used.

CV 5000: + 7.5
Inuke: - 0.5

The other song I used was Disposable Heroes by Metallica.

CV 5000: + 8.5
Inuke: +1.0



I also tried out the Avatar scene running the 215's with subs, I only did this with the CV5000 here is what I got:


215's set to Large/Subs on (so, no LFE goes to the 215's but other bass does)

CV5000 +6.5




Ok, a couple things here. First off I was really surprised how much of a difference there was between the CV and inuke. Now, it could be that I don't have the gain structure or whatever setup exactly optimal on the inuke, but I have it set so that the input clip lights and output clip lights light up at the same time, plus I did try lowering/raising the speaker trims from the AVR and raising/lowering the sub gain on the inuke and I kept getting clipping at the exact same volume as before.

I would have guessed that the CV would have had 4-5 db advantage, but it's more like 6-8 - at least with this very unscientific test.





Am I bummed that I can no longer go to crazy +12, +15 or + whatever levels of the 212's? No. I can still go to +6.5 as long as I run the mains as large with the subs going at the same time. That is pretty damn good. I bet if I cross the 215's at 50 or even 80hz I could go +10...


Oh, one more thing. As usual the CV doesn't get ANY louder at all when pushed to clipping but the inuke sounds like a jet plane taking off when pushed to clipping. Still, I want to try the 6000 because I absolutely love the dsp of the inuke.
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post #21092 of 36221 Old 07-10-2014, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post
Yep, my fearless prediction is he won't notice any difference until he pushes it beyond +12dB master volume.

Let's see...

Ha, nope ain't happening unless I'm testing my 212 center channel!
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post #21093 of 36221 Old 07-10-2014, 06:03 PM
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Oh, I was also surprised that the Metallica song clipped very close to the bassy Pendulum song. Massive amount of difference in low bass between those 2 songs.
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post #21094 of 36221 Old 07-10-2014, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post
Sorry about the delay. Had to get several things done today so I put off speaker listening a little longer.

My first listening session consisted of me simply turning my system on and leaving the settings the same as they were when I had my Noesis 212HT's. Also, I didn't turn any of the subs on for the first demo.

Went through some movie clips and I quickly realized that several adjustments are going to be needed before I am WOW'd. My knowledge in setting up audio is very limited, so I am sure simply "plugging in and playing" wasn't a wise move.

Initial opinion is that the center volume is too low compared to my 212's and seems to get drowned out by the left and right speakers. It doesn't seem right because they are the same drivers and horn, so who knows.

Like I said, I am sure I went about this the wrong way and need to make some drastic adjustments....Or maybe need to add some more power. lol

Any input would be welcomed. Dgage is coming over tomorrow to help me work with my NanoAvr that I just picked up, which I am hoping will improve things.

Do you have a db meter? If not you gotta get one!!
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post #21095 of 36221 Old 07-10-2014, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post
I am going to head back up in a little while, turn off Audyssey and see what happens...


Tomorrow will be when we dive in and see what they can do.
Yeah, I'd wait if I were you. If you want to try something, set the left and right speakers to "Large" (or "Full Range"). If there is an option for "Large plus Subs or LFE" use that.

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post #21096 of 36221 Old 07-10-2014, 06:05 PM
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I am running into a problem tonight and I need help. I am having a big problem on how I am going to mount my side surrounds with my Slanted 8's. They are just not going to work. I won't go into to details, but I will just say they can not be mounted on the sides.I know it sounds crazy, but there is some problems. I will be able to mount them in the rear and I have decided that I can move the other pair in the front for my heights, that is if I can even mount a slanted 8 in the front? Will it be to much of a dip to seats at 10' or 11'? Anyone using slanted 8's for front heights?

Can anyone tell me if there is a speaker that will pair up with the single 8's that is smaller? I really hate the thought of this, but I am having thoughts of selling my 4 slanted 8's and getting 6 smaller speakers. This really sucks.
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post #21097 of 36221 Old 07-10-2014, 06:26 PM
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Is there anyone in the San Antonio, TX area who wouldn't mind allowing me to audition some JTRs? I'm considering a set of the Noesis 228s, but I'd really like to hear them (or anything with the JTR sound) first. Thanks.
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post #21098 of 36221 Old 07-10-2014, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
Do you have a db meter? If not you gotta get one!!
I'll be bringing my gear over; DB meter, MiniDSP UMIK-1, Laptop with REW and NanoAVR software. We'll have some fun and hopefully have this dialed in pretty good...at least for this amateur. I'm sure Coach will be happy to get his calibrator Chad back down to really fix things up but in this case...beggars can't be choosy.

Oh, I'll also be bringing his treatments I built along with a compressor and pneumatic upholstery stapler so we can upholster his treatments. So don't expect the audio portion until the afternoon as we'll be treating his entire front wall and front ceiling with treatments first. Pictures forthcoming.
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post #21099 of 36221 Old 07-10-2014, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post
I am going to head back up in a little while, turn off Audyssey and see what happens...


Tomorrow will be when we dive in and see what they can do.
Yes unless I am missing something you should have had Audyssey off from the get go if you didn't run a fresh calibration for the 215's. Otherwise you are getting the room correction it set for your previous speakers applied to the 215's. But I am sure you knew that I would go Audyssey off and then your Audyssey calibration done very meticulously (1st measurement literally measured dead center, all electronics off, most use a tighter mic cluster, etc.)

I feel unqualified to make suggestions but I too have a (tiny compared to yours) triple 8 LP center channel below screen. I have experimented with center channel optimization for clear vocals for movies is something I have experimented a bit with. I currently have a 2 inch acoustical panel I built for it to sit on. I really don't think it does much in respect to positive acoustical effects but it raises it up a bit and I also have some foam wedges that angle it up slightly so that it aims head height while sitting. (perhaps just a tad couple inches higher maybe). I feel it has made significant effects rather than just firing directly straight. Your case I would say have some kind of wedges to angle it up ever so slightly? But I don't know your seating arrangement. Anyway dgage and you will get it all sorted out I know
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post #21100 of 36221 Old 07-10-2014, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
I'll be bringing my gear over; DB meter, MiniDSP UMIK-1, Laptop with REW and NanoAVR software. We'll have some fun and hopefully have this dialed in pretty good...at least for this amateur. I'm sure Coach will be happy to get his calibrator Chad back down to really fix things up but in this case...beggars can't be choosy.

Oh, I'll also be bringing his treatments I built along with a compressor and pneumatic upholstery stapler so we can upholster his treatments. So don't expect the audio portion until the afternoon as we'll be treating his entire front wall and front ceiling with treatments first. Pictures forthcoming.
OH YES!!! That ceiling treatment that covers the 1st specular reflections for LCR speakers for at least the 2-3 main seats will make your speakers instantly a level better guaranteed. At minimum the main seat. The floor too. If you don't have plush carpet GET A PLUSH RUG! seriously big difference. I am interested to actually research that nanoavr as well.
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post #21101 of 36221 Old 07-10-2014, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
I did some testing this morning on the inuke and wrote some numbers down but then I realized I couldn't compare that to the CV5000 since I was running the heavy hitting LFE scenes like How To Train Your Dragon etc. from the Scuba Steve disk. I used a HPF on the inuke and I won't be able to do that with the CV 5000.

So, I re-ran some music and a scene from the movie Avatar since I didn't think it is known for a lot of under 20hz bass.

I used the scene where he says, "these dumb bastards just aren't getting it, time to turn up the heat". There are some explosions after that and that's what I used to compare the amps.

So here is the comparison.


215's Full range no HPF. The numbers below are the exact volume where I saw the slightest flickering of the clip light, -.05 db's less on the master volume and no flickering of the clip light whatsoever.

CV 5000: +2.5
Inuke: -4


For music I picked a song by Pendulum called 9000 Miles. There is some really nice bass around the 2:00 minute mark so that's what I used.

CV 5000: + 7.5
Inuke: - 0.5

The other song I used was Disposable Heroes by Metallica.

CV 5000: + 8.5
Inuke: +1.0



I also tried out the Avatar scene running the 215's with subs, I only did this with the CV5000 here is what I got:


215's set to Large/Subs on (so, no LFE goes to the 215's but other bass does)

CV5000 +6.5




Ok, a couple things here. First off I was really surprised how much of a difference there was between the CV and inuke. Now, it could be that I don't have the gain structure or whatever setup exactly optimal on the inuke, but I have it set so that the input clip lights and output clip lights light up at the same time, plus I did try lowering/raising the speaker trims from the AVR and raising/lowering the sub gain on the inuke and I kept getting clipping at the exact same volume as before.

I would have guessed that the CV would have had 4-5 db advantage, but it's more like 6-8 - at least with this very unscientific test.





Am I bummed that I can no longer go to crazy +12, +15 or + whatever levels of the 212's? No. I can still go to +6.5 as long as I run the mains as large with the subs going at the same time. That is pretty damn good. I bet if I cross the 215's at 50 or even 80hz I could go +10...


Oh, one more thing. As usual the CV doesn't get ANY louder at all when pushed to clipping but the inuke sounds like a jet plane taking off when pushed to clipping. Still, I want to try the 6000 because I absolutely love the dsp of the inuke.

Carp, although this may not be perfectly controlled experiment I think it has a lot of practical and useful information about running more juice. Amp ratings (and exactly how they were determined), speaker impedence loads at various frequencies and so on, all have an impact and this is a great quick real world test IMHO
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post #21102 of 36221 Old 07-10-2014, 07:16 PM
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Dgage might have to rent a box truck to bring all that gear over tomorrow. Haha

I am looking forward to playing and learning some tomorrow. No doubt that these will be sounding a ton better tomorrow.
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post #21103 of 36221 Old 07-10-2014, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post
Carp, although this may not be perfectly controlled experiment I think it has a lot of practical and useful information about running more juice. Amp ratings (and exactly how they were determined), speaker impedence loads at various frequencies and so on, all have an impact and this is a great quick real world test IMHO

Thanks Lance.

Another thing I want to point out, if I hadn't been starting intently at the clip lights I would have gone above the level of flickering because the sound was still soooo clean. So, I believe you can get a bit more output before bad things/bad sounds etc. will happen.

Not that I'm going to do that on any kind of consistent basis, but on a rare out of control demo for a short burst I'm sure it would be fine.

I used to have SOLID (and stayed solid for awhile) red lights on my ep4000 many times and never did any damage to the Captivators - or the amp. Today I was looking for the very slightest flicker of red.
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post #21104 of 36221 Old 07-10-2014, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post
Dgage might have to rent a box truck to bring all that gear over tomorrow. Haha

I am looking forward to playing and learning some tomorrow. No doubt that these will be sounding a ton better tomorrow.

That would be killing me!! Just fire them up in 2 channel stereo, no subs, no other speakers, and listen to some music.

That's what I did the first night after getting home from the gtg and I couldn't turn off the system until close to 4 AM.
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post #21105 of 36221 Old 07-10-2014, 09:51 PM
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Is there anyone in the San Antonio, TX area who wouldn't mind allowing me to audition some JTRs? I'm considering a set of the Noesis 228s, but I'd really like to hear them (or anything with the JTR sound) first. Thanks.
I'm in north Houston (The Woodlands/Conroe) area. I have a 7.2 jtr system. Not sure if you want to travel that far but I'd give you a demo. I have the 212 lp up front and 4 slanted 8s for surrounds. We are going to have another theater met in August if you want to time that out and see some another room and meet the gang here.

I have a build thread under College Park 4K Cinema.
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post #21106 of 36221 Old 07-10-2014, 10:01 PM
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I'm in north Houston (The Woodlands/Conroe) area. I have a 7.2 jtr system. Not sure if you want to travel that far but I'd give you a demo. I have the 212 lp up front and 4 slanted 8s for surrounds. We are going to have another theater met in August if you want to time that out and see some another room and meet the gang here.

I have a build thread under College Park 4K Cinema.

Hey Randy,

I hear Houston is lovely in August!

Seriously though, I would love to be able to make it down your way some day to see your HT - and Pain Affliction's too, I think he lives somewhat close to you.
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post #21107 of 36221 Old 07-10-2014, 10:06 PM
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Hey Randy,

I hear Houston is lovely in August!

Seriously though, I would love to be able to make it down your way some day to see your HT - and Pain Affliction's too, I think he lives somewhat close to you.
Haha....you forget I grew up in Kansas and it's not the best time of the year there either. But yes...it does tend to get a bit warm and sticky then.

Yes...Pain is over in Katy. That would be like you running to Lawrence. I have been wanting to go see him and his room but he can't stop the mods long enough to have company.

We may need to talk about the 215s. I am thinking...maybe the 215RMs.
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post #21108 of 36221 Old 07-10-2014, 10:37 PM
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Haha....you forget I grew up in Kansas and it's not the best time of the year there either. But yes...it does tend to get a bit warm and sticky then.

Yes...Pain is over in Katy. That would be like you running to Lawrence. I have been wanting to go see him and his room but he can't stop the mods long enough to have company.

We may need to talk about the 215s. I am thinking...maybe the 215RMs.

Yeah I remembered - but hey this summer has been cake!! Only a handful of days have even cracked 90, next week the highs are in the 70's again - it's crazy. 2 years ago my lawn had already died by this point. I'm not exaggerating - DEAD. Walking on it without shoes would cut your feet, haha. I had to start over and plant all new seed that fall. This year haven't watered once and it's all green.

215's huh? Sure man, give me a call anytime and we'll talk about it.
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post #21109 of 36221 Old 07-10-2014, 11:52 PM
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^forecast is calling for 101 next week here in Eugene OR! And we are not dry here, very green and on the humid side
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post #21110 of 36221 Old 07-11-2014, 07:47 AM
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I am going to head back up in a little while, turn off Audyssey and see what happens...


Tomorrow will be when we dive in and see what they can do.
Turn that garbage off and try listening to a few things again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
I'll be bringing my gear over; DB meter, MiniDSP UMIK-1, Laptop with REW and NanoAVR software. We'll have some fun and hopefully have this dialed in pretty good...at least for this amateur. I'm sure Coach will be happy to get his calibrator Chad back down to really fix things up but in this case...beggars can't be choosy.

Oh, I'll also be bringing his treatments I built along with a compressor and pneumatic upholstery stapler so we can upholster his treatments. So don't expect the audio portion until the afternoon as we'll be treating his entire front wall and front ceiling with treatments first. Pictures forthcoming.
I would love it if you guys did a non audyssey listen (and sweep) before you start tossing the treatments up. I neglected to do this last time I added my ceiling panels and front wall treatment and have been kicking myself for not doing so ever since. I am just interested in your plug and play opinion before anything major has been changed (but without audyssey). Did I mention to turn off audyssey?
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post #21111 of 36221 Old 07-11-2014, 08:43 AM
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As long as you have Audyssey (XT32?) you might as well give it a go assuming you were happy with Audyssey before. I have found Audyssey helpful but when you have the ability to measure and EQ using other tools, Audyssey provides less value. IMHO

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post #21112 of 36221 Old 07-11-2014, 08:44 AM
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Beast, it makes sense that you want us to listen before adding treatments and I was thinking the same thing. But what I wasn't as clear on was what you wanted done with Audyssey.
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post #21113 of 36221 Old 07-11-2014, 08:48 AM
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As long as you have Audyssey (XT32?) you might as well give it a go assuming you were happy with Audyssey before. I have found Audyssey helpful but when you have the ability to measure and EQ using other tools, Audyssey provides less value. IMHO
In this case RMK, Coach has always had a pro come in with the pro Audyssey tools to run the Audyssey calibration. Since I don't have a pre/pro with Audyssey, I'm not as clear on how to use XT32 effectively on his Denon 4520. So I'm probably all for bypassing Audyssey for much of our early testing but may give it a go later. We'll also be bringing the NanoAVR into the mix for DSP control.
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post #21114 of 36221 Old 07-11-2014, 08:50 AM
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Beast, it makes sense that you want us to listen before adding treatments and I was thinking the same thing. But what I wasn't as clear on was what you wanted done with Audyssey.
If I could burn Audyssey with a napalm bomb, I would...
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post #21115 of 36221 Old 07-11-2014, 10:32 AM
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In this case RMK, Coach has always had a pro come in with the pro Audyssey tools to run the Audyssey calibration. Since I don't have a pre/pro with Audyssey, I'm not as clear on how to use XT32 effectively on his Denon 4520. So I'm probably all for bypassing Audyssey for much of our early testing but may give it a go later. We'll also be bringing the NanoAVR into the mix for DSP control.
The process could not be easier ... but is time consuming if you have a lot of channels.

BTW, the people who run Audyssey Pro Calibration are usually not Pros (more like Cons ). Having had the Pro Kit, it is a rather dubious automated process with very little manual override.

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If I could burn Audyssey with a napalm bomb, I would...
Wow, that is a lot of Audyssey angst ...

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Last edited by RMK!; 07-11-2014 at 10:36 AM.
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post #21116 of 36221 Old 07-11-2014, 10:57 AM
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I really hate the thought of this, but I am having thoughts of selling my 4 slanted 8's and getting 6 smaller speakers. This really sucks.
I hate to hear that they might not work for you. If you do decide to sell, I'd like to throw my hat in the ring. I'd rather you figure out a way to get them to work in your space though.
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post #21117 of 36221 Old 07-11-2014, 11:41 AM
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If I could burn Audyssey with a napalm bomb, I would...
Dang Beast I guess you really lime Audyssey. I myself keep it turned off on my ancient Onkyo TX-SR805 (waiting for the dust to clear on Dolby Atmos and DTS MDA before upgrading). I also don't like the Audyssey eq'd sound in my space.
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post #21118 of 36221 Old 07-11-2014, 11:49 AM
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Yep, it does great for some people I guess, but at least in my room, it robs my entire setup of its fantastic soundstage, sterilizes the sound, and never gets the crossover region right with the distance settings for the subs and such. I haven't run an audyssey calibration period for almost a year now, and STILL I find Audyssey being "automatically" engaged on some sources. I watched half a movie not too long ago wondering why it sounded off and then looked on the display to see the little audyssey badge lit. I wanted to rip the frigging unit out and smash whatever "Chip" controls that...just to avoid it. Ended up doing a full reset and that keeps it from automatically coming on now, since the unit thinks I have never actually done a calibration....
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post #21119 of 36221 Old 07-11-2014, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kronin View Post
I hate to hear that they might not work for you. If you do decide to sell, I'd like to throw my hat in the ring. I'd rather you figure out a way to get them to work in your space though.
Thanks. When I began this project of mine, they were fine where they were going. I actually still have them in the boxes waiting to be installed. I had changed some things around in my room and the changes offset the space I had to mount my slanted 8's. I knew things would inter fear with things, but last night I really looked at it and it may really be a problem to mount the S8's on the sides. I am going to see what I can do.
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post #21120 of 36221 Old 07-11-2014, 01:27 PM
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Does anyone near New Orleans, LA have a set of Noesis speakers that they wouldn't mind auditioning (to a complete stranger lol)? I have some older 228-LP's and I'm just wondering if the upgrade would be worth the effort.
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