Official JTR speaker thread - Page 711 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #21301 of 31063 Old 07-15-2014, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
Can anybody say whether or not Jeff had EQ on the 215's at Axpona?? Where is the Axpona crew at?
This is conjecture but it seems as if Jeff is somewhat of a music purist and may not be into HT as much...which is sort of interesting considering the 212s have the HT moniker on them. But even his 215s without EQ are not midbass monsters. I couldn't say they are light on midbass because they absolutely aren't but they are a little thin OUT OF THE BOX for midbass in movies.
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post #21302 of 31063 Old 07-15-2014, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
This is conjecture but it seems as if Jeff is somewhat of a music purist and may not be into HT as much...which is sort of interesting considering the 212s have the HT moniker on them. But even his 215s without EQ are not midbass monsters. I couldn't say they are light on midbass because they absolutely aren't but they are a little thin OUT OF THE BOX for midbass in movies.


That's why pretty much everyone boosts the bass. You (and I.... and most people) would say the same thing about a pair of speakers crossed over to subs that were set to flat.

Are there speakers out there that are purposely made to not be flat and have boosted bass out of the box? Jeff says all his speakers are designed to be flat, I assume that's what every speaker maker does and then it's up to the individual to tweak that.
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post #21303 of 31063 Old 07-15-2014, 06:58 PM
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Ya, I cranked mine up first thing LOL I'm almost 8 dB's over flat on the mid

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post #21304 of 31063 Old 07-15-2014, 09:01 PM
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Here are the REW measurements for Pre and Post treatment results from Coach's room. We added treatments to the ceiling, and all along the front wall including the right front corner. Next steps are for us to meet and get some DSP manipulation going.







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post #21305 of 31063 Old 07-15-2014, 10:50 PM
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I think we have solved the mystery of the missing mid-bass in the 215's!! 80-200 hz is lower than all other freqeuncies, even the peak around 100 for the right channel and 140 for the left channel are still way lower than the peaks at the other frequencies. The center should have better mid bass than the L and R, although there are a couple nasty dips there too.

Man, the left speaker drops off a cliff under 30hz, the right speaker does so much better in the low frequencies.

I'm surprised to see the center channel hanging on down to 30hz, that doesn't make much sense.


The treatments are helping with the left speaker - I'm also wondering about the seating placement. Does Coach have 1 row? If so maybe the response would be better by either moving up some or back some?
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post #21306 of 31063 Old 07-16-2014, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
I think we have solved the mystery of the missing mid-bass in the 215's!! 80-200 hz is lower than all other freqeuncies, even the peak around 100 for the right channel and 140 for the left channel are still way lower than the peaks at the other frequencies. The center should have better mid bass than the L and R, although there are a couple nasty dips there too.

Man, the left speaker drops off a cliff under 30hz, the right speaker does so much better in the low frequencies.

I'm surprised to see the center channel hanging on down to 30hz, that doesn't make much sense.


The treatments are helping with the left speaker - I'm also wondering about the seating placement. Does Coach have 1 row? If so maybe the response would be better by either moving up some or back some?
We have two rows in my room. The first row could go back slightly, but then it would mess up the side surround placement.

I need to get more educated in how to read those measurements and to know what the ideal ranges are. Hopefully it can be eq'd to net a better result and not that something is wrong with the speakers.
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post #21307 of 31063 Old 07-16-2014, 06:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post
We have two rows in my room. The first row could go back slightly, but then it would mess up the side surround placement.

I need to get more educated in how to read those measurements and to know what the ideal ranges are. Hopefully it can be eq'd to net a better result and not that something is wrong with the speakers.
I am in the same boat, I am not the best are reading the measurements. I need to get more acquainted with it real soon. You're room looks great. The treatments look really good. What are the dimensions on the the ceiling panels? Did you use the 703?
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post #21308 of 31063 Old 07-16-2014, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
I am in the same boat, I am not the best are reading the measurements. I need to get more acquainted with it real soon. You're room looks great. The treatments look really good. What are the dimensions on the the ceiling panels? Did you use the 703?
I built the ceiling treatments out of 2x4s, 40"x48". We used Roxul Comfortbatts (wall/stud insulation) for the ceiling and Roxulboard 60 for the wall treatments. Gives 3.5" insulation for the ceiling with a couple inches of air space due to the hooks. On the wall treatments, we have 2" with a 1" airspace in the back.
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post #21309 of 31063 Old 07-16-2014, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post
We have two rows in my room. The first row could go back slightly, but then it would mess up the side surround placement.

I need to get more educated in how to read those measurements and to know what the ideal ranges are. Hopefully it can be eq'd to net a better result and not that something is wrong with the speakers.
I wouldn't get too hung up on the measurements Coach. You have applied room treatments which should eliminate excessive reflections. With your room size, it can easily be overloaded with sound so I wouldn't worry too much about over reference SPL's except for showing off purposes.

These measurements are point in space and as I'm sure you know, moving a foot or two in any direction causes things to change sometimes dramatically. The goal is to get it sounding good where you sit ... right ?

I still believe (despite other "expert" opinions) that Audyssey (XT32) is fairly good at optimizing sound quality over multiple locations in an untreated room.
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post #21310 of 31063 Old 07-16-2014, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post
We have two rows in my room. The first row could go back slightly, but then it would mess up the side surround placement.

I need to get more educated in how to read those measurements and to know what the ideal ranges are. Hopefully it can be eq'd to net a better result and not that something is wrong with the speakers.

Ahh gotcha.

Can you guys use 1/12 smoothing? I think it's harder to see what is going on when using no smoothing - or it could be that I'm just used to seeing 1/12 smoothed graphs since that is what I like to use. I have read quite a few times that our ears hear similar to what 1/6th smoothing looks like so I figure if I go one setting less smoothed than 1/6th (which is 1/12th on the omnimic) then I'll be good to go.

However, even unsmoothed you can really tell that the mid-bass is very low in those left and right main graphs.


Coach -

Also there is something else I have been wondering. The 215's have a different sound to them than the 212's - and definitely different imaging and soundstage - than the 212's. Could part of your being underwhelmed be not just the mid-bass but maybe your ears do not like these differences and prefer the 212's? Obviously for your sake I really hope that is not the case - but wondered if it was a possibility.
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post #21311 of 31063 Old 07-16-2014, 08:21 AM
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Ahh gotcha.

Can you guys use 1/12 smoothing? I think it's harder to see what is going on when using no smoothing - or it could be that I'm just used to seeing 1/12 smoothed graphs since that is what I like to use. I have read quite a few times that our ears hear similar to what 1/6th smoothing looks like so I figure if I go one setting less smoothed than 1/6th (which is 1/12th on the omnimic) then I'll be good to go.

However, even unsmoothed you can really tell that the mid-bass is very low in those left and right main graphs.


Coach -

Also there is something else I have been wondering. The 215's have a different sound to them than the 212's - and definitely different imaging and soundstage - than the 212's. Could part of your being underwhelmed be not just the mid-bass but maybe your ears do not like these differences and prefer the 212's? Obviously for your sake I really hope that is not the case - but wondered if it was a possibility.
That is with 1/6 smoothing but I'll use 1/12 in future posts. I can't speak for Coach but he has already mentioned soundstage width and midbass were the main reasons he made the switch to the 215s. Soundstage is definitely large but obviously the midbass will have to be brought in from Taiwan with the MiniDSP NanoAVR.

For me, I like the sound of the 215s better than the 212s, and I'm primarily referring to the upper end of the frequency range. At some point, I will bring my 212HT-LP center over to directly compare it to the 215RM center but that won't be today.
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post #21312 of 31063 Old 07-16-2014, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
Ahh gotcha.

Can you guys use 1/12 smoothing? I think it's harder to see what is going on when using no smoothing - or it could be that I'm just used to seeing 1/12 smoothed graphs since that is what I like to use. I have read quite a few times that our ears hear similar to what 1/6th smoothing looks like so I figure if I go one setting less smoothed than 1/6th (which is 1/12th on the omnimic) then I'll be good to go.

However, even unsmoothed you can really tell that the mid-bass is very low in those left and right main graphs.


Coach -

Also there is something else I have been wondering. The 215's have a different sound to them than the 212's - and definitely different imaging and soundstage - than the 212's. Could part of your being underwhelmed be not just the mid-bass but maybe your ears do not like these differences and prefer the 212's? Obviously for your sake I really hope that is not the case - but wondered if it was a possibility.
I was initially underwhelmed right when I hooked them up. That was 100% due to my lack of turning off the previous Audyssey settings. After we adjusted the levels manually, that made a big difference. The sound of the 215's is to my liking, especially the soundstage. At this point, the mid bass is the only thing lacking....but I am confident we will overcome that.
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post #21313 of 31063 Old 07-16-2014, 09:04 AM
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I was sick yesterday, so I told Jeff to wait on the speakers for now (Three 215RT's). He will drop them off Friday night, I will optimize placement Saturday, and Hopefully Calibrate Sunday. That is if everything goes to plan.
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post #21314 of 31063 Old 07-16-2014, 12:13 PM
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I was sick yesterday, so I told Jeff to wait on the speakers for now (Three 215RT's). He will drop them off Friday night, I will optimize placement Saturday, and Hopefully Calibrate Sunday. That is if everything goes to plan.
That must have been some illness because if I was getting my 215's delivered, that would have been my cure.
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post #21315 of 31063 Old 07-16-2014, 12:34 PM
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That is with 1/6 smoothing but I'll use 1/12 in future posts. I can't speak for Coach but he has already mentioned soundstage width and midbass were the main reasons he made the switch to the 215s. Soundstage is definitely large but obviously the midbass will have to be brought in from Taiwan with the MiniDSP NanoAVR.

For me, I like the sound of the 215s better than the 212s, and I'm primarily referring to the upper end of the frequency range. At some point, I will bring my 212HT-LP center over to directly compare it to the 215RM center but that won't be today.


1/12 smoothing will be even more ragged than your 1/6th smoothing. That's crazy that the graph is in 1/6th, it looks more like 1/48 for what I'm used to with the omnimic.

Hmmm what the heck? I must not understand how REW works compared to the Omnimic. The REW graphs look so much more ragged in their response (not just yours). Is it a time thing, as in the Onmi captures a longer period of time for it's sweeps or something?
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post #21316 of 31063 Old 07-16-2014, 12:54 PM
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That must have been some illness because if I was getting my 215's delivered, that would have been my cure.
I felt very weak and know I wouldn't have been able to lift them even with Jeff's help. So no need to get them if I can't bring them down stairs.

I feel better today, and will probably be 99%+ by Friday, so I should be able to get them where I need them.

***I want to love them as much as everyone here as they will likely never leave my home once downstairs. I'm not going in expecting the world. I am going to keep my expectations in check and I will give an honest opinion once I have them dialed in. Everyone seems so excited about the sound stage and imaging of them. But I actually expect that to be a downgrade from what I had before with my Vandersteen Quatro's. I do expect the dynamics and effortlessness at reference to be an upgrade thought. (Better be... lol)

Regardless, these will be my "final" theater speakers regarding mains.

I will eventually over the next couple of years get S8's for wides and Slanted 8's for sides / rears / ceiling (atmos)
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post #21317 of 31063 Old 07-16-2014, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
1/12 smoothing will be even more ragged than your 1/6th smoothing. That's crazy that the graph is in 1/6th, it looks more like 1/48 for what I'm used to with the omnimic.

Hmmm what the heck? I must not understand how REW works compared to the Omnimic. The REW graphs look so much more ragged in their response (not just yours). Is it a time thing, as in the Onmi captures a longer period of time for it's sweeps or something?
The y axis was quite constrained. Where OM typically defaults to around 60dB spread or so, David's graph was quite a bit tighter.

EDIT: Yep, his y axis is 35dB spread, so really it just makes it look much more jagged. David could adjust the y axis to 60dB and it would look just about like you are used to.

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post #21318 of 31063 Old 07-16-2014, 01:05 PM
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The y axis was quite constrained. Where OM typically defaults to around 60dB spread or so, David's graph was quite a bit tighter.
Thanks - I see that now. Still, even with that - it's so much more up and down especially for 1/6th smoothing.... am I right about that?
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post #21319 of 31063 Old 07-16-2014, 01:06 PM
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I felt very weak and know I wouldn't have been able to lift them even with Jeff's help. So no need to get them if I can't bring them down stairs.

I feel better today, and will probably be 99%+ by Friday, so I should be able to get them where I need them.

***I want to love them as much as everyone here as they will likely never leave my home once downstairs. I'm not going in expecting the world. I am going to keep my expectations in check and I will give an honest opinion once I have them dialed in. Everyone seems so excited about the sound stage and imaging of them. But I actually expect that to be a downgrade from what I had before with my Vandersteen Quatro's. I do expect the dynamics and effortlessness at reference to be an upgrade thought. (Better be... lol)

Regardless, these will be my "final" theater speakers regarding mains.

I will eventually over the next couple of years get S8's for wides and Slanted 8's for sides / rears / ceiling (atoms)
I have never heard the Vandersteens, but I will almost guarantee that you will be floored. I would make that guarantee with the 212's. I think you will be a very happy camper. Considering that you have a beautiful well treated room to put them in is all the better. I really cannot wait to hear your opinions of them.
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post #21320 of 31063 Old 07-16-2014, 01:06 PM
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post #21321 of 31063 Old 07-16-2014, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
I felt very weak and know I wouldn't have been able to lift them even with Jeff's help. So no need to get them if I can't bring them down stairs.

I feel better today, and will probably be 99%+ by Friday, so I should be able to get them where I need them.

***I want to love them as much as everyone here as they will likely never leave my home once downstairs. I'm not going in expecting the world. I am going to keep my expectations in check and I will give an honest opinion once I have them dialed in. Everyone seems so excited about the sound stage and imaging of them. But I actually expect that to be a downgrade from what I had before with my Vandersteen Quatro's. I do expect the dynamics and effortlessness at reference to be an upgrade thought. (Better be... lol)

Regardless, these will be my "final" theater speakers regarding mains.

I will eventually over the next couple of years get S8's for wides and Slanted 8's for sides / rears / ceiling (atmos)


I know how you feel, my expectations were held down too. They exceeded everything I hoped for with the exception that their sensitivity is SOOOO much lower than the 212's.

My concern for you is that you have already heard the 215's and it seemed like you thought they were just ok. I hope that is different in your room!!
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post #21322 of 31063 Old 07-16-2014, 01:14 PM
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I was very happy with the sound from the 212HT's at Lances. So that's why i'm going to go in with lower expectations after hearing an OK presentation of the 215RT's. I do think it was the room they were in, so I hope to be blown away as well.

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post #21323 of 31063 Old 07-16-2014, 01:45 PM
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[QUOTE=carp;25796913]I know how you feel, my expectations were held down too. They exceeded everything I hoped for with the exception that their sensitivity is SOOOO much lower than the 212's.

Hey Carp,
I am wondering when you mention the lower sensitivity of the 215's, if you are now using a pro amp to power them and did not with your prior speakers.
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post #21324 of 31063 Old 07-16-2014, 02:08 PM
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Has Jeff ever mentioned replacing the S8 line with anything that more closely matches the Noesis line? I see he is retiring the triple loudspeakers but no mention on the S8. My concern is the S8 is not cheap and with Atmos on its way, the non LCR channels will represent a huge cost. I understand the S8 timber match to the Noesis is good, but it seems a new design could improve this. Maybe something with the Noesis driver and a single 8 driver. This would be larger that the S8, but smaller than what is currently offered in the Noesis line.
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post #21325 of 31063 Old 07-16-2014, 02:25 PM
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Has Jeff ever mentioned replacing the S8 line with anything that more closely matches the Noesis line? I see he is retiring the triple loudspeakers but no mention on the S8. My concern is the S8 is not cheap and with Atmos on its way, the non LCR channels will represent a huge cost. I understand the S8 timber match to the Noesis is good, but it seems a new design could improve this. Maybe something with the Noesis driver and a single 8 driver. This would be larger that the S8, but smaller than what is currently offered in the Noesis line.
Not sure of any details but I know Jeff is considering a low profile speaker for in-wall and/or ceiling mounting. This speaker would require a very different design than the current coaxial based single/slanted 8's. Personally, I would be interested in that design for an Atmos setup.
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post #21326 of 31063 Old 07-16-2014, 02:31 PM
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Thanks. Yes, sorry, I also meant a non-coaxial design, just for clarification. Fingers crossed.
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post #21327 of 31063 Old 07-16-2014, 02:48 PM
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Hey Carp,
I am wondering when you mention the lower sensitivity of the 215's, if you are now using a pro amp to power them and did not with your prior speakers.[/quote]


With the 212's I went back and forth spending months at a time with a pro amp and months with the avr and in the end realized that in no way did I need anymore power than my avr could put out - and even on rare occasions that I felt like going to +15 it wasn't worth the hiss that I got from the speakers when hooked to a pro amp.

With the 215's I am currently using an Inuke 3000 dsp and no hiss!!! Ha, at least there is one benefit to have lost sensitivity!

I had to change the trim on the 215's by 11 db's, so let's pretend it was 12 db's to make it a nice even number. Well, in that case I would need 16 times the power to get the same spl's that I was getting from the 212's. If my AVR was putting out 100 watts to each (which is probably best case scenerio) then I need 1600 watts to get the same spl's that I was getting with my avr.

I'll never touch what I was getting with the 212's and a pro amp.

I think with an Inuke 6000 dsp that will for sure get me there since it is supposed to put out close to 2000 watts in 4 ohms per channel.


Someone correct me if any of this ^ is wrong.
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post #21328 of 31063 Old 07-16-2014, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
Hey Carp,
I am wondering when you mention the lower sensitivity of the 215's, if you are now using a pro amp to power them and did not with your prior speakers.

With the 212's I went back and forth spending months at a time with a pro amp and months with the avr and in the end realized that in no way did I need anymore power than my avr could put out - and even on rare occasions that I felt like going to +15 it wasn't worth the hiss that I got from the speakers when hooked to a pro amp.

With the 215's I am currently using an Inuke 3000 dsp and no hiss!!! Ha, at least there is one benefit to have lost sensitivity!

I had to change the trim on the 215's by 11 db's, so let's pretend it was 12 db's to make it a nice even number. Well, in that case I would need 16 times the power to get the same spl's that I was getting from the 212's. If my AVR was putting out 100 watts to each (which is probably best case scenerio) then I need 1600 watts to get the same spl's that I was getting with my avr.

I'll never touch what I was getting with the 212's and a pro amp.

I think with an Inuke 6000 dsp that will for sure get me there since it is supposed to put out close to 2000 watts in 4 ohms per channel.


Syomeone correct me if any of this ^ is wrong. [/QUOTE

I like to follow this thread as I love the look and dynamics of the JTR speakers. They first caught my eye because of the similarities to my own Klipsch Epic CF3's speakers. The reason you are having trouble with the trim, I believe, is because your pre outs from your receiver are not putting out a strong enough signal to your pro amp. I had the same problem with my Pioneer Receiver when I got my Crown K2 amp. Through some reading I discovered that it is a common problem when hooking up home theater gear to pro amps and they recommended buying a converter that bumps up the signal from the receiver to the proper gain to match what the pro amp is designed to receive. The 2 that I purchased were the Art clean box Pro and the Henry HD, which do just that. Once I added the Henry it brought the trims of the front 3 speakers to within a few dB's of each other when I ran the MCacc. You might do some reading on them.

Last edited by shivaji; 07-16-2014 at 04:22 PM.
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post #21329 of 31063 Old 07-16-2014, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by shivaji View Post

I like to follow this thread as I love the look and dynamics of the JTR speakers. They first caught my eye because of the similarities to my own Klipsch Epic CF3's speakers. The reason you are having trouble with the trim, I believe, is because your pre outs from your receiver are not putting out a strong enough signal to your pro amp. I had the same problem with my Pioneer Receiver when I got my Crown K2 amp. Through some reading I discovered that it is a common problem when hooking up home theater gear to pro amps and they recommended buying a converter that bumps up the signal from the receiver to the proper gain to match what the pro amp is designed to receive. The 2 that I purchased were the Art clean box Pro and the Henry HD, which do just that. Once I added the Henry it brought the trims of the front 3 speakers to within a few dB's of each other when I ran the MCacc. You might do some reading on them.

Thanks and you are right I really do have to crank up the gains on all my pro amps since the signal is weak from my AVR, but that isn't what I mean.

What I mean is even with just using the AVR and no pro amp at all, I have to bump up the speaker volume trims 11 db's for the 215's to match the 212's. This is why I need roughly 16 times the power with the 215's to get to the same output that I had with the 212's.
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post #21330 of 31063 Old 07-16-2014, 05:29 PM
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Ah, I see. Also from what I have read, if a pro amp does not get a strong enough input signal, it will not be able to reach its full power. Though, those who no know for sure may chime in on that. Anyways, I trust you are enjoying your new speakers and I have always been impressed with your room and your devotion to taking things to the max. Very Cool.
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