Official JTR speaker thread - Page 711 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #21301 of 29453 Old 07-15-2014, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post
Looks like my wimpy Sunfire TGA-7401 might not be enough power to properly show off my new speakers...

Guess I need another amp… :roll eyes:
When Jeff was showing the 215's at Axpona he used an oppo with 80 wpc and everybody seemed to think they sounded great. What is your amp rated per channel?

Official JTR speaker thread


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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Along with that...and this may be for Dlbeck. I know you will keep your 212s (and midbass modules ) but which did you like better out of the Yorkville and Danley?
I will jump in here and say that I thought they were pretty even, at one point I did not even realize we changed mains. There was a difference though and I could not explain it. Klipsh (Justin) had said the same thing. The difference was not good or bad. I had thought it was just a wee bit flatter in the mid range. This time around I really liked the SH50's and in the end I would have picked them. We spent a majority of the day with them and I just thought they sounded really good. We had watched the Eagles (Band) BluRay and it felt like you were in audience. I am going to have to pick that one up.
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post #21302 of 29453 Old 07-15-2014, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post
Looks like my wimpy Sunfire TGA-7401 might not be enough power to properly show off my new speakers...

Guess I need another amp… :roll eyes:
When Jeff was showing the 215's at Axpona he used an oppo with an Adcom amp, 80 wpc and everybody seemed to think they sounded great. What is your amp rated per channel?

Official JTR speaker thread


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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Along with that...and this may be for Dlbeck. I know you will keep your 212s (and midbass modules ) but which did you like better out of the Yorkville and Danley?
I will jump in here and say that I thought they were pretty even, at one point I did not even realize we changed mains. After a little while I did notice there was a difference though and I could not explain it. Klipsh (Justin) had said the same thing. The difference was not good or bad. I had thought it was just a wee bit flatter in the mid range. This time around I really liked the SH50's and in the end I would have picked them. We spent a majority of the day with them and I just thought they sounded really good. We had watched the Eagles (Band) BluRay and it felt like you were in audience. I am going to have to pick that one up.
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post #21303 of 29453 Old 07-15-2014, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
When Jeff was showing the 215's at Axpona he used an oppo with 80 wpc and everybody seemed to think they sounded great. What is your amp rated per channel?
Coach is putting 400 wpc through the 215s. I think it is safe to say he has enough power to make them sing...we just need to EQ them.

Which brings up a good question...was Jeff running the 215s at Axpona with no EQ? Anyone know?
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post #21304 of 29453 Old 07-15-2014, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Coach is putting 400 wpc through the 215s. I think it is safe to say he has enough power to make them sing...we just need to EQ them.

Which brings up a good question...was Jeff running the 215s at Axpona with no EQ? Anyone know?
I thought about that but forgot to throw it in. I think that link with the picture shows the story.

However from that post it sounds like he said there was not enough power?

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post #21305 of 29453 Old 07-15-2014, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
When Jeff was showing the 215's at Axpona he used an oppo with 80 wpc and everybody seemed to think they sounded great. What is your amp rated per channel?

Official JTR speaker thread


I will jump in here and say that I thought they were pretty even, at one point I did not even realize we changed mains. There was a difference though and I could not explain it. Klipsh (Justin) had said the same thing. The difference was not good or bad. I had thought it was just a wee bit flatter in the mid range. This time around I really liked the SH50's and in the end I would have picked them. We spent a majority of the day with them and I just thought they sounded really good. We had watched the Eagles (Band) BluRay and it felt like you were in audience. I am going to have to pick that one up.
Which Eagles blu ray? I will have to check it out too

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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Coach is putting 400 wpc through the 215s. I think it is safe to say he has enough power to make them sing...we just need to EQ them.

Which brings up a good question...was Jeff running the 215s at Axpona with no EQ? Anyone know?
800 wpc at 4 ohms on the sunfire btw

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post #21306 of 29453 Old 07-15-2014, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Which Eagles blu ray? I will have to check it out too
Craig John brought it, I think it was the Farewell tour. I seen the cover from a distance and pretty sure it was this > http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/The-Ea...Blu-ray/63541/
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post #21307 of 29453 Old 07-15-2014, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post
Fellas, you might be interested some directivity measurements of the Yorkville U215's alongside a couple of DIY Synergy horns. These are a few years old now and I have no idea whether or not Yorkville have refined the design since.

Here is the measurement setup: http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com.a...surements.html (Mainly for the second pic - gives a good sense of the size.)

And here are the results and a bit of commentary: http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com.a...surements.html

Cheers!
No surprise there: larger horn = better pattern control and dispersion. Same would hold true for any of the smaller horns including the XR1464 18 sounds horn used in the 212. For most residential rooms and seating positions they are very adequate still, but obviously not on par with much larger horns such as the the SH50, Noesis 215, or even the SEOS 24.

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Craig John brought it, I think it was the Farewell tour. I seen the cover from a distance and pretty sure it was this > http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/The-Ea...Blu-ray/63541/
That's the one! Bill from Ontario bought me that disc after one of the GTGs, it is very well recorded. Hotel California is my favorite track.

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post #21308 of 29453 Old 07-15-2014, 10:25 AM
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800 wpc at 4 ohms on the sunfire btw
That obviously won't do. We need to get Jeff to buy a Dsonic stat! Thanks for the correction.
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post #21309 of 29453 Old 07-15-2014, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
That obviously won't do. We need to get Jeff to buy a Dsonic stat! Thanks for the correction.
Haha...I am sticking with the Sunfire for now.
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post #21310 of 29453 Old 07-15-2014, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
Craig John brought it, I think it was the Farewell tour. I seen the cover from a distance and pretty sure it was this > http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/The-Ea...Blu-ray/63541/
Quote:
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That obviously won't do. We need to get Jeff to buy a Dsonic stat! Thanks for the correction.
If you are looking for a glowing review, then I will give one, the Dsonic is awesome. If you are looking for approving to suggest Jeff move from 800 watts per channel up to 1050 wpc like my dsonic does, you won't get it he would have to go to 1600 for an added 3dB? seems highly unnecessary unless he regularly cruises at +10dB. Now if you start getting silly on the house curve on the bottom, then I would argue to keep that sunfire, and buy a pro amp just for the mains, and those extra two channels you gain on the sunfire could be for atmos or something when the time comes... but not a whole new amp. The sunfire is a killer piece.
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post #21311 of 29453 Old 07-15-2014, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
If you are looking for approving to suggest Jeff move from 800 watts per channel up to 1050 wpc like my dsonic does, you won't get it he would have to go to 1600 for an added 3dB? seems highly unnecessary unless he regularly cruises at +10dB. Now if you start getting silly on the house curve on the bottom, then I would argue to keep that sunfire, and buy a pro amp just for the mains, and those extra two channels you gain on the sunfire could be for atmos or something when the time comes... but not a whole new amp. The sunfire is a killer piece.
No...look at his original post...it was his idea...and I agree with you...unnecessary...especially since he doesn't go nuts with the volume.
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post #21312 of 29453 Old 07-15-2014, 04:57 PM
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Can anybody say whether or not Jeff had EQ on the 215's at Axpona?? Where is the Axpona crew at?
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post #21313 of 29453 Old 07-15-2014, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
Can anybody say whether or not Jeff had EQ on the 215's at Axpona?? Where is the Axpona crew at?
This is conjecture but it seems as if Jeff is somewhat of a music purist and may not be into HT as much...which is sort of interesting considering the 212s have the HT moniker on them. But even his 215s without EQ are not midbass monsters. I couldn't say they are light on midbass because they absolutely aren't but they are a little thin OUT OF THE BOX for midbass in movies.
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post #21314 of 29453 Old 07-15-2014, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
This is conjecture but it seems as if Jeff is somewhat of a music purist and may not be into HT as much...which is sort of interesting considering the 212s have the HT moniker on them. But even his 215s without EQ are not midbass monsters. I couldn't say they are light on midbass because they absolutely aren't but they are a little thin OUT OF THE BOX for midbass in movies.


That's why pretty much everyone boosts the bass. You (and I.... and most people) would say the same thing about a pair of speakers crossed over to subs that were set to flat.

Are there speakers out there that are purposely made to not be flat and have boosted bass out of the box? Jeff says all his speakers are designed to be flat, I assume that's what every speaker maker does and then it's up to the individual to tweak that.
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post #21315 of 29453 Old 07-15-2014, 06:58 PM
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Ya, I cranked mine up first thing LOL I'm almost 8 dB's over flat on the mid

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #21316 of 29453 Old 07-15-2014, 09:01 PM
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Here are the REW measurements for Pre and Post treatment results from Coach's room. We added treatments to the ceiling, and all along the front wall including the right front corner. Next steps are for us to meet and get some DSP manipulation going.







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post #21317 of 29453 Old 07-15-2014, 10:50 PM
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I think we have solved the mystery of the missing mid-bass in the 215's!! 80-200 hz is lower than all other freqeuncies, even the peak around 100 for the right channel and 140 for the left channel are still way lower than the peaks at the other frequencies. The center should have better mid bass than the L and R, although there are a couple nasty dips there too.

Man, the left speaker drops off a cliff under 30hz, the right speaker does so much better in the low frequencies.

I'm surprised to see the center channel hanging on down to 30hz, that doesn't make much sense.


The treatments are helping with the left speaker - I'm also wondering about the seating placement. Does Coach have 1 row? If so maybe the response would be better by either moving up some or back some?
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post #21318 of 29453 Old 07-16-2014, 06:11 AM
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I think we have solved the mystery of the missing mid-bass in the 215's!! 80-200 hz is lower than all other freqeuncies, even the peak around 100 for the right channel and 140 for the left channel are still way lower than the peaks at the other frequencies. The center should have better mid bass than the L and R, although there are a couple nasty dips there too.

Man, the left speaker drops off a cliff under 30hz, the right speaker does so much better in the low frequencies.

I'm surprised to see the center channel hanging on down to 30hz, that doesn't make much sense.


The treatments are helping with the left speaker - I'm also wondering about the seating placement. Does Coach have 1 row? If so maybe the response would be better by either moving up some or back some?
We have two rows in my room. The first row could go back slightly, but then it would mess up the side surround placement.

I need to get more educated in how to read those measurements and to know what the ideal ranges are. Hopefully it can be eq'd to net a better result and not that something is wrong with the speakers.
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post #21319 of 29453 Old 07-16-2014, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post
We have two rows in my room. The first row could go back slightly, but then it would mess up the side surround placement.

I need to get more educated in how to read those measurements and to know what the ideal ranges are. Hopefully it can be eq'd to net a better result and not that something is wrong with the speakers.
I am in the same boat, I am not the best are reading the measurements. I need to get more acquainted with it real soon. You're room looks great. The treatments look really good. What are the dimensions on the the ceiling panels? Did you use the 703?
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post #21320 of 29453 Old 07-16-2014, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
I am in the same boat, I am not the best are reading the measurements. I need to get more acquainted with it real soon. You're room looks great. The treatments look really good. What are the dimensions on the the ceiling panels? Did you use the 703?
I built the ceiling treatments out of 2x4s, 40"x48". We used Roxul Comfortbatts (wall/stud insulation) for the ceiling and Roxulboard 60 for the wall treatments. Gives 3.5" insulation for the ceiling with a couple inches of air space due to the hooks. On the wall treatments, we have 2" with a 1" airspace in the back.
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post #21321 of 29453 Old 07-16-2014, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post
We have two rows in my room. The first row could go back slightly, but then it would mess up the side surround placement.

I need to get more educated in how to read those measurements and to know what the ideal ranges are. Hopefully it can be eq'd to net a better result and not that something is wrong with the speakers.
I wouldn't get too hung up on the measurements Coach. You have applied room treatments which should eliminate excessive reflections. With your room size, it can easily be overloaded with sound so I wouldn't worry too much about over reference SPL's except for showing off purposes.

These measurements are point in space and as I'm sure you know, moving a foot or two in any direction causes things to change sometimes dramatically. The goal is to get it sounding good where you sit ... right ?

I still believe (despite other "expert" opinions) that Audyssey (XT32) is fairly good at optimizing sound quality over multiple locations in an untreated room.
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post #21322 of 29453 Old 07-16-2014, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post
We have two rows in my room. The first row could go back slightly, but then it would mess up the side surround placement.

I need to get more educated in how to read those measurements and to know what the ideal ranges are. Hopefully it can be eq'd to net a better result and not that something is wrong with the speakers.

Ahh gotcha.

Can you guys use 1/12 smoothing? I think it's harder to see what is going on when using no smoothing - or it could be that I'm just used to seeing 1/12 smoothed graphs since that is what I like to use. I have read quite a few times that our ears hear similar to what 1/6th smoothing looks like so I figure if I go one setting less smoothed than 1/6th (which is 1/12th on the omnimic) then I'll be good to go.

However, even unsmoothed you can really tell that the mid-bass is very low in those left and right main graphs.


Coach -

Also there is something else I have been wondering. The 215's have a different sound to them than the 212's - and definitely different imaging and soundstage - than the 212's. Could part of your being underwhelmed be not just the mid-bass but maybe your ears do not like these differences and prefer the 212's? Obviously for your sake I really hope that is not the case - but wondered if it was a possibility.
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post #21323 of 29453 Old 07-16-2014, 08:21 AM
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Ahh gotcha.

Can you guys use 1/12 smoothing? I think it's harder to see what is going on when using no smoothing - or it could be that I'm just used to seeing 1/12 smoothed graphs since that is what I like to use. I have read quite a few times that our ears hear similar to what 1/6th smoothing looks like so I figure if I go one setting less smoothed than 1/6th (which is 1/12th on the omnimic) then I'll be good to go.

However, even unsmoothed you can really tell that the mid-bass is very low in those left and right main graphs.


Coach -

Also there is something else I have been wondering. The 215's have a different sound to them than the 212's - and definitely different imaging and soundstage - than the 212's. Could part of your being underwhelmed be not just the mid-bass but maybe your ears do not like these differences and prefer the 212's? Obviously for your sake I really hope that is not the case - but wondered if it was a possibility.
That is with 1/6 smoothing but I'll use 1/12 in future posts. I can't speak for Coach but he has already mentioned soundstage width and midbass were the main reasons he made the switch to the 215s. Soundstage is definitely large but obviously the midbass will have to be brought in from Taiwan with the MiniDSP NanoAVR.

For me, I like the sound of the 215s better than the 212s, and I'm primarily referring to the upper end of the frequency range. At some point, I will bring my 212HT-LP center over to directly compare it to the 215RM center but that won't be today.
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post #21324 of 29453 Old 07-16-2014, 08:51 AM
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Ahh gotcha.

Can you guys use 1/12 smoothing? I think it's harder to see what is going on when using no smoothing - or it could be that I'm just used to seeing 1/12 smoothed graphs since that is what I like to use. I have read quite a few times that our ears hear similar to what 1/6th smoothing looks like so I figure if I go one setting less smoothed than 1/6th (which is 1/12th on the omnimic) then I'll be good to go.

However, even unsmoothed you can really tell that the mid-bass is very low in those left and right main graphs.


Coach -

Also there is something else I have been wondering. The 215's have a different sound to them than the 212's - and definitely different imaging and soundstage - than the 212's. Could part of your being underwhelmed be not just the mid-bass but maybe your ears do not like these differences and prefer the 212's? Obviously for your sake I really hope that is not the case - but wondered if it was a possibility.
I was initially underwhelmed right when I hooked them up. That was 100% due to my lack of turning off the previous Audyssey settings. After we adjusted the levels manually, that made a big difference. The sound of the 215's is to my liking, especially the soundstage. At this point, the mid bass is the only thing lacking....but I am confident we will overcome that.
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post #21325 of 29453 Old 07-16-2014, 09:04 AM
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I was sick yesterday, so I told Jeff to wait on the speakers for now (Three 215RT's). He will drop them off Friday night, I will optimize placement Saturday, and Hopefully Calibrate Sunday. That is if everything goes to plan.
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post #21326 of 29453 Old 07-16-2014, 12:13 PM
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I was sick yesterday, so I told Jeff to wait on the speakers for now (Three 215RT's). He will drop them off Friday night, I will optimize placement Saturday, and Hopefully Calibrate Sunday. That is if everything goes to plan.
That must have been some illness because if I was getting my 215's delivered, that would have been my cure.
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That is with 1/6 smoothing but I'll use 1/12 in future posts. I can't speak for Coach but he has already mentioned soundstage width and midbass were the main reasons he made the switch to the 215s. Soundstage is definitely large but obviously the midbass will have to be brought in from Taiwan with the MiniDSP NanoAVR.

For me, I like the sound of the 215s better than the 212s, and I'm primarily referring to the upper end of the frequency range. At some point, I will bring my 212HT-LP center over to directly compare it to the 215RM center but that won't be today.


1/12 smoothing will be even more ragged than your 1/6th smoothing. That's crazy that the graph is in 1/6th, it looks more like 1/48 for what I'm used to with the omnimic.

Hmmm what the heck? I must not understand how REW works compared to the Omnimic. The REW graphs look so much more ragged in their response (not just yours). Is it a time thing, as in the Onmi captures a longer period of time for it's sweeps or something?
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post #21328 of 29453 Old 07-16-2014, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
That must have been some illness because if I was getting my 215's delivered, that would have been my cure.
I felt very weak and know I wouldn't have been able to lift them even with Jeff's help. So no need to get them if I can't bring them down stairs.

I feel better today, and will probably be 99%+ by Friday, so I should be able to get them where I need them.

***I want to love them as much as everyone here as they will likely never leave my home once downstairs. I'm not going in expecting the world. I am going to keep my expectations in check and I will give an honest opinion once I have them dialed in. Everyone seems so excited about the sound stage and imaging of them. But I actually expect that to be a downgrade from what I had before with my Vandersteen Quatro's. I do expect the dynamics and effortlessness at reference to be an upgrade thought. (Better be... lol)

Regardless, these will be my "final" theater speakers regarding mains.

I will eventually over the next couple of years get S8's for wides and Slanted 8's for sides / rears / ceiling (atmos)
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post #21329 of 29453 Old 07-16-2014, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
1/12 smoothing will be even more ragged than your 1/6th smoothing. That's crazy that the graph is in 1/6th, it looks more like 1/48 for what I'm used to with the omnimic.

Hmmm what the heck? I must not understand how REW works compared to the Omnimic. The REW graphs look so much more ragged in their response (not just yours). Is it a time thing, as in the Onmi captures a longer period of time for it's sweeps or something?
The y axis was quite constrained. Where OM typically defaults to around 60dB spread or so, David's graph was quite a bit tighter.

EDIT: Yep, his y axis is 35dB spread, so really it just makes it look much more jagged. David could adjust the y axis to 60dB and it would look just about like you are used to.

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Last edited by beastaudio; 07-16-2014 at 01:04 PM.
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post #21330 of 29453 Old 07-16-2014, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
The y axis was quite constrained. Where OM typically defaults to around 60dB spread or so, David's graph was quite a bit tighter.
Thanks - I see that now. Still, even with that - it's so much more up and down especially for 1/6th smoothing.... am I right about that?
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