Official JTR speaker thread - Page 715 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #21421 of 31063 Old 07-24-2014, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
^ I think the 212's can be pushed to insane levels, the 215's can be pushed to 11 db's less than insane levels which is still louder than I need.

My room is 3200 cu ft. If you have gone to +10 you are clipping the amp or pushing more than 2000 watts per speaker. Did Jeff say it's ok to push more than that to the 215's? Haha, I do have 2 inuke 6000's sitting around... oh wait... you can't bridge the 6000 anyway.
I don't get the 11db delta you describe. Specs say 6db (212=101db, 215=95db) and that seems about right to me.

BTW, my LG FP10000Q is rated 2100 wpc and I don't think it's clipping at +10 but will check.


OK, checked and at +10 no clipping. +15 produced a red light on one channel (center) and I stopped there.

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post #21422 of 31063 Old 07-24-2014, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
I don't get the 11db delta you describe. Specs say 6db (212=101db, 215=95db) and that seems about right to me.

BTW, my LG FP10000Q is rated 2100 wpc and I don't think it's clipping at +10 but will check.
It seems one of the specs is over, or understated. In level matching the 212's at various g2g's, and with other folk's findings around here in transitioning directly from 212's to the 215's it seems to me as if the 212 is at least understated by several dB's, where I would be willing to guess its sensitivity is in fact a little closer to 103-104dB 1w/1m. We noticed this at Rilla's g2g's when transitioning from speakers quickly where the trims for the 212's always were the most sensitive by several dB.

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post #21423 of 31063 Old 07-24-2014, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
It seems one of the specs is over, or understated. In level matching the 212's at various g2g's, and with other folk's findings around here in transitioning directly from 212's to the 215's it seems to me as if the 212 is at least understated by several dB's, where I would be willing to guess its sensitivity is in fact a little closer to 103-104dB 1w/1m. We noticed this at Rilla's g2g's when transitioning from speakers quickly where the trims for the 212's always were the most sensitive by several dB.
I dunno but my guess is OE and or poor measuring gear.

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post #21424 of 31063 Old 07-24-2014, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
I dunno but my guess is OE and or poor measuring gear.
At my GTGs we always used several Omnimics (most were very close to each other) as well as at least 3-4 of us (experienced users) present during calibration/tweaking. Mic and speaker placement was very close to exact for each. Operator error or lack of experience was certainly not a issue. The 212s were always the most sensitive of the bunch, as expected. Going off the notes they were +2 over my U215s (seems about right), +5 of my SEOS Sentintels (also seems correct), and WAY over the lower sensitivity offerings. I'd be very curious to measure the 215s in my room as a +11 trim seems like a HUGE difference!
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post #21425 of 31063 Old 07-24-2014, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post
At my GTGs we always used several Omnimics (most were very close to each other) as well as at least 3-4 of us (experienced users) present during calibration/tweaking. Mic and speaker placement was very close to exact for each. Operator error or lack of experience was certainly not a issue. The 212s were always the most sensitive of the bunch, as expected. Going off the notes they were +2 over my U215s (seems about right), +5 of my SEOS Sentintels (also seems correct), and WAY over the lower sensitivity offerings. I'd be very curious to measure the 215s in my room as a +11 trim seems like a HUGE difference!
My comment wasn't directed at you, beast or the 3-4 others but rather the person reporting the 11db difference.

BTW, he is an experienced user too ...

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post #21426 of 31063 Old 07-24-2014, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
My comment wasn't directed at you, beast or the 3-4 others but rather the person reporting the 11db difference.

BTW, he is an experienced user too ...
Heh, understood. The best thing would certainly be to measure same day, place, location, equipment. I'm HOPING that Dave (reefdvr) gets his 215's before August comes around.
@carp - Did you have your trims in the inuke the same for both? Just curious.

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post #21427 of 31063 Old 07-24-2014, 08:00 AM
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I am not experienced, but will share my differences going from the 212's to the 215's.

Audyssey had my 212's at -11. Right now the 215's are at -1 and I think -2 on the center. Would have to jump upstairs and confirm for sure...
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post #21428 of 31063 Old 07-24-2014, 08:08 AM
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post #21429 of 31063 Old 07-24-2014, 08:24 AM
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I am not experienced, but will share my differences going from the 212's to the 215's.

Audyssey had my 212's at -11. Right now the 215's are at -1 and I think -2 on the center. Would have to jump upstairs and confirm for sure...
My Audyssey level report was the 212HT-LP's were always -12db. Since that is the max cut possible on my Integra, I installed 10db attenuators and the numbers became -3 or -4. I ended up removing the attenuators and leaving them at -12.

The 215RT's are now -8 to -9 after Audyssey calibration and my 75db level matching (Integra test tones) via my digital SPL meter. That pretty well fits the 6db delta of the specs ... no?

The only wild card here is my 215's were the first units built and Jeff tweaked the Xover after my installation. If that is the reason for the delta, then that was a pretty serious tweak.

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post #21430 of 31063 Old 07-24-2014, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
I dunno but my guess is OE and or poor measuring gear.
I measured using both my omnimic and Radio Shack meter placed where my head is in the main LP and the 215 front baffles are in the exact same spot as the 212's. Oh, and there's this little tidbit: I still have a 212 to directly compare!!! Same thing. 11 db's different. I'll have Kevin bring over his REW and Luke is coming over Sunday I'll have him bring his omnimic but I can tell you right what we are going to find.

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At my GTGs we always used several Omnimics (most were very close to each other) as well as at least 3-4 of us (experienced users) present during calibration/tweaking. Mic and speaker placement was very close to exact for each. Operator error or lack of experience was certainly not a issue. The 212s were always the most sensitive of the bunch, as expected. Going off the notes they were +2 over my U215s (seems about right), +5 of my SEOS Sentintels (also seems correct), and WAY over the lower sensitivity offerings. I'd be very curious to measure the 215s in my room as a +11 trim seems like a HUGE difference!

Yep exactly ^. When I had the Danley SH50's in here I had to bump up the trim a full 7 db's to match the 212's and the Danley's are rated at 99. This is with using test tones AND running sweeps and matching them up. 7 db's different.


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Heh, understood. The best thing would certainly be to measure same day, place, location, equipment. I'm HOPING that Dave (reefdvr) gets his 215's before August comes around.
@carp - Did you have your trims in the inuke the same for both? Just curious.
The night I first hooked them up I used only the receiver. I honestly wasn't that surprised since every speaker I've had in here to compare with the 212 has had way lower sensitivity by comparison. I compared again the next day to make sure and it was 11 db's again.

I posted right away my findings with the difference in sensitivity, I think people missed it because I never saw any comments about it.

Yeah, I hope he gets them too that would be awesome if you had them at your GTG. I wish I could make again it was so much fun in January but we are going on a float/camping trip with a couple other families.
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Even my 228HT's seem to be more sensitive then other speakers that I have checked against. The Tempest are 98dB rated and the were about 1.5dB down from the 228's. And even the new 1099's which are 99dB rated were down about 0.3dB.
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post #21432 of 31063 Old 07-24-2014, 09:04 AM
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BTW, my LG FP10000Q is rated 2100 wpc and I don't think it's clipping at +10 but will check.


OK, checked and at +10 no clipping. +15 produced a red light on one channel (center) and I stopped there.

Of course it depends on the content that is playing, but I can't go +15 with any content without clipping the inuke 6000 so that is impressive - and also pretty cool because it means if I could get a lot more headroom if I save up for an LG (ha, lots of saving up though).

Do you have the movie Avatar? If so do you remember the scene where he says, "these dumb bastards just aren't getting it, alright let's fire up the incendiaries." A lot of loud explosions follow. If you have that movie would you mind running that scene and checking clip lights on the LG to see where clipping happens? I'd love to know exactly how many more db's the LG can put out than the 6000!
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Hahaha, this made me bust out laughing.
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Hahaha, this made me bust out laughing.
Seeing this makes me want to to go out and pick up an used NES.....
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Please do the test Rob, it would be quite enlightening! I don't think anyone has really ever head to headed the 6000 vs an lg clone! this would be pretty close tho!

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post #21436 of 31063 Old 07-24-2014, 09:28 AM
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Of course it depends on the content that is playing, but I can't go +15 with any content without clipping the inuke 6000 so that is impressive - and also pretty cool because it means if I could get a lot more headroom if I save up for an LG (ha, lots of saving up though).

Do you have the movie Avatar? If so do you remember the scene where he says, "these dumb bastards just aren't getting it, alright let's fire up the incendiaries." A lot of loud explosions follow. If you have that movie would you mind running that scene and checking clip lights on the LG to see where clipping happens? I'd love to know exactly how many more db's the LG can put out than the 6000!
Ran it and the answer is not that many if any db more. It was fine at +10 but I began to see red lights at +11 and over.

Looks like you can save for something else ...

I think it may be current limited and a 30 amp circuit (I have 20 amp) would be better but with all hell breaking loose at those levels the clipping isn't audible.

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post #21437 of 31063 Old 07-24-2014, 09:31 AM
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Please do the test Rob, it would be quite enlightening! I don't think anyone has really ever head to headed the 6000 vs an lg clone! this would be pretty close tho!
No clones here (I sold mine). I'm using the real deal.

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post #21438 of 31063 Old 07-24-2014, 09:38 AM
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ah yes, forgot...

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post #21439 of 31063 Old 07-24-2014, 09:54 AM
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Ran it and the answer is not that many if any db more. It was fine at +10 but I began to see red lights at +11 and over.

Looks like you can save for something else ...

No no, that's a HUGE difference! On that scene the inuke 6000 only made it to + 3.5 before clip lights started coming on with the mains ran as large and no subs.

6.5 db's louder = wow!
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No no, that's a HUGE difference! On that scene the inuke 6000 only made it to + 3.5 before clip lights started coming on with the mains ran as large and no subs.

6.5 db's louder = wow!
Carp - Don't you (like me) calibrate a little 'hot' with respect to the normal 75db at ref? I thought I remembered us chatting about that in January. It would also depend on where in the room you're setting your reference point.

Damnit Beast, **** now I want to leave work and play Mario Bros.

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It has been a rough few weeks waiting for speakers. I have four triple 8ht's coming from jeff soon (for surround duty) and two seaton subversive f2 (slaves) coming in a week or two as well. Don't know when I will have time to install but looking forward to hearing 3 triple 12's and four triple 8's with four seaton subversives

Anyone in the Sarasota area that is knowledgable in REW and could help me setup? Thanks
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Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post
Heh, understood. The best thing would certainly be to measure same day, place, location, equipment. I'm HOPING that Dave (reefdvr) gets his 215's before August comes around.
@carp - Did you have your trims in the inuke the same for both? Just curious.
We can do it anytime. We could certainly pick anyday. I was hoping my theater was done and I would have had a mini GTG when they came. I am now set back a couple of weeks for finish work. Like I said if they are not here in time, we can do it any weekend.
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So tiny....

Look at all the room I still have...



Time to setup and clean.
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post #21445 of 31063 Old 07-24-2014, 10:17 AM
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Look at the pic in the Milwaukee thread. What you saw a few posts back was just a plop and shoot.

In the Milwaukee thread it's the final setup.

or I'll just post here too!



I will finally sit and listen Saturday guys... sorry for the long delay!

They are toed in toward the center seat at the MLP.
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post #21446 of 31063 Old 07-24-2014, 10:19 AM
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Carp - Don't you (like me) calibrate a little 'hot' with respect to the normal 75db at ref? I thought I remembered us chatting about that in January.

Damnit Beast, **** now I want to leave work and play Mario Bros.

I think I have it figured out now.

Here is what I mean. Before I tried an AVR with Audyssey in my room I had 4 different ways to try to figure out where reference is.

1. Receiver test tones played at 75 db's
2. MCACC auto calibration
3. AVIA calibration disk (test tones should read 85 db's at listening position with MV at 0)
4. WOW calibration disk (test tones should read 83 db's at listening postion with MV at 0)

The only thing that matched up was the test tones at 75 db's with the AVIA disk.

MCACC calibration set reference as a few db's louder than AVIA and the WOW disk set reference as a few db's quieter than AVIA.

Well, when I bought the Onkyo 811 and ran Audyssey it matched up perfectly with AVIA and the receiver test tones from my Pioneer Elite so I figure that I've finally found exactly where reference is and the WOW disk and MCACC calibration are wrong.


So, I use my receiver test tones/AVIA disk to set reference which should be the same as Rob's since he uses Audyssey.
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post #21447 of 31063 Old 07-24-2014, 10:22 AM
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Look at the pic in the Milwaukee thread. What you saw a few posts back was just a plop and shoot.

In the Milwaukee thread it's the final setup.

or I'll just post here too!



I will finally sit and listen Saturday guys... sorry for the long delay!

They are toed in toward the center seat at the MLP.


Nice!!!
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post #21448 of 31063 Old 07-24-2014, 11:13 AM
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I think I have it figured out now.

Here is what I mean. Before I tried an AVR with Audyssey in my room I had 4 different ways to try to figure out where reference is.

1. Receiver test tones played at 75 db's
2. MCACC auto calibration
3. AVIA calibration disk (test tones should read 85 db's at listening position with MV at 0)
4. WOW calibration disk (test tones should read 83 db's at listening postion with MV at 0)

The only thing that matched up was the test tones at 75 db's with the AVIA disk.

MCACC calibration set reference as a few db's louder than AVIA and the WOW disk set reference as a few db's quieter than AVIA.

Well, when I bought the Onkyo 811 and ran Audyssey it matched up perfectly with AVIA and the receiver test tones from my Pioneer Elite so I figure that I've finally found exactly where reference is and the WOW disk and MCACC calibration are wrong.


So, I use my receiver test tones/AVIA disk to set reference which should be the same as Rob's since he uses Audyssey.
Yup, 75db via the Intergra 80.3 test tones. and confirmed with my digital SPL meter.

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post #21449 of 31063 Old 07-24-2014, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
No no, that's a HUGE difference! On that scene the inuke 6000 only made it to + 3.5 before clip lights started coming on with the mains ran as large and no subs.

6.5 db's louder = wow!
Humm, maybe the LG was worth the price after all.

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post #21450 of 31063 Old 07-24-2014, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
We can do it anytime. We could certainly pick anyday. I was hoping my theater was done and I would have had a mini GTG when they came. I am now set back a couple of weeks for finish work. Like I said if they are not here in time, we can do it any weekend.
Was talking with Jeff today and he said two more sets of 215RT's were sent out yesterday. Hopefully yours ...

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