Official JTR speaker thread - Page 734 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #21991 of 36155 Old 08-14-2014, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
There was talk early on about it and I cannot speak for everybody, but I think most of the regulars agreed that until there is content and a proven source to drive it, there really not much to talk about. I was reading about the new Atmos units in the Crutchfield catalog and some of units say firmware upgrade? I know I am not laying down the cash for hopes of a firmware upgrade. Most of these early AVR's seem to be geared towards basic set ups for the top firing speakers and I can almost bet that nobody in this forum will have top firing speakers. I know Film Mixer commented on one of my post and he said that he has heard the top firing speakers and it sounds good. I don't know what sounds good to him, but I am still having a hard time beliving that a speaker firing atop a floor stander will give incredible ceiling effect. Unless they are mounted on a 215, I just don't see it. As I said I will not knock it till I try it. I guess what I am getting at is I am looking at more pro versions of Atmos which I believe is still a year or more away.
They should not be placed higher than half wall height according to Dolby :

"For the best sound, place your speakers at or slightly above the height of your ears when
you’re seated. Avoid placing the Dolby Atmos enabled speakers higher than one-half the
height of your wall."

Source : Dolby Atmos® for the Home Theater
August 2014

215's are not small from what I can see.

Last edited by staaled; 08-14-2014 at 09:58 AM. Reason: Spelling
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post #21992 of 36155 Old 08-14-2014, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post
Unless the speaker is broken it is certainly the room. My 212HT L&R measured at the MLP with no subs and no eq give a huge increase starting at 150hz. The center has a dip around 80 but the huge jump in midbass (I hate that non descript term) from 150hz down to about 90hz for all three. I almost have to laugh when I keep reading about this midbass issue for the 212. In pure output down to 80 hz the 212HT has more than the 215! Lower than that yes the 215 takes over. If matched with subs designed to cross between 80-100hz I don't see the issue. No matter how we define midbass I think we would agree it is in the modal region, so Archea is likely correct about the room.


In my system the output from 20hz-150hz is over 130dB at the MLP which is 13 ft from the LCR's!.


Here is the L&R 212HT no subs no eq. The the last FR is with the OS's integrated and turned down for movie (more flat). Every room will be different.
Agree.
Very likely 1/4 wavelength destructive interference from the front wall.
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post #21993 of 36155 Old 08-14-2014, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by smbsocal View Post
The JTR speakers are voiced flat which is Jeff's preference but it is counter to what most people find appealing. To counter this you just need to boost the mid-bass up with an EQ to get the sound you want. The speakers are more than capable enough to take the boost you give them and no suffer and ill consequences. Now the only thing that boosting cannot do is overcome room issues. The only way to overcome these are to either move the speaker placement or modify the room. You mentioned a 100Hz hole which you couldn't EQ out which would be due to a room / speaker placement issue. http://peavey.com/support/technotes/...ncellation.cfm

I have had my T12s for a couple years now and recently EQ'd them which made the mid-bass and even bass from them really stand out. The bass was enough to where I thought the subs kicked on in addition to the L / R speakers.

Added in Edit: You mentioned that the speakers had the same FR in two rooms. If this is the case I would say possibly a faulty speaker. One sure fire way to test, but a pain, would be to test the FR out in an open field.
OK. I don't want to say too much more until I have some measurements to back up what I am saying. I am not trying to be negative on JTR speakers but when I read so much positive of the S8, I want to ensure people reading have another perspective, which is that I don't care for it as a "speaker" as much as the other JTR offerings. Not that it isn't worth $1000 but it isn't something I recommend to anyone for LCR duty, UNLESS THEY GET TO HEAR IT FOR THEMSELVES FIRST.

So here are some facts and I'll even throw in a measurement. I'll take more measurements and share later this weekend to backup what my ears are telling me.
  • FACT: The S8s do not sound similar to the Noesis. I'll post a graph this weekend showing that.
  • OPINION: I am not a huge fan of the S8s for main duty. But for surrounds, they are staying in my room and will likely get more if I ever go the Atmos route in the future.
  • FACT: THIS SURPRISED ME. The 212 uses the same coax compression driver as the 215 but the upper range sounds different. The horn construction itself is different but the coax compression driver is the same. Carp noted a different sonic signature between his 215s and 212 center. Take a look at the measurement below from the center of Coach's room. (Measurement coming in next post as I have to restart my computer as REW isn't loading correctly.)
  • OPINION: Out of the box I like the upper range of the 212 much better than the 215. The 215 didn't sound that good to me (somewhat veiled) until it was professionally calibrated, then it became special. The 212s sounded really good to me right out of the box and better with EQing. I gave a rough first EQ of Coach's room so I heard all 3 of his front 215RT/RM and what I heard wasn't room placement or a single speaker issue.
  • FACT: The 215 and Cat12s have very strong midbass and I know they can overcome room issues.
  • OPINION: The 212s don't have enough midbass to overcome major room nodes like I might be experiencing. I have more options such as adding amplification but they are already powered by 225w on an outboard amp. I can also bring up my front LMS-5400s to cover up to 140-150 Hz. I have more I can do but I don't have time to futz with my speakers right now and really wish I didn't have to.
  • OPINION: I find it interesting dlbeck included midbass modules with his 212s from the beginning. He likely wouldn't have needed those with the 215RM or Cat12s.

I like your idea of testing my 212s in an open field. I might do that so I can truly figure out what is going on an show everyone what I am hearing.
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post #21994 of 36155 Old 08-14-2014, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post
All points well taken. They sound like beasts for sure! Your explanation gets me more excited to seek them out for a demo, that's for sure.

Thanks for the thorough response.

Would be very cool to get some measurements of the M2's in the room you are demoing them in!
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
I can't think of a single reason NOT to get measurements.
Take your rig!!!! That is exactly what I want to see. I am sure they wouldn't mind too. Sounds like a really "live" room and perhaps that is exactly what you prefer, some people do! I like dead as a door nail, but that is just another part of preference land.
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post #21995 of 36155 Old 08-14-2014, 09:28 AM
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Here is my initial, pre-DSP measurements of the 212HT-LP, Cat12, and 215RM at the front center of Coach's room.

NOTE: I have a feeling there was a crossover in the signal chain on the 212 that caused it to drop like that but couldn't find it in the time allotted at Coach's.




And here are some old measurements I took of my sealed 212s in my room. You can see that there is a big drop in midbass on the left and right. Sorry my room is my room; there isn't much I can do but make my speakers work in the room, I don't have the luxury of trying them in multiple positions or pulling them more than 6" out from the wall. Like I said, I can work on them more but don't really have time right now.

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post #21996 of 36155 Old 08-14-2014, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
[*]FACT: The 215 and Cat12s have very strong midbass and I know they can overcome room issues.
More output doesn't overcome room issues.
Quote:
[*]OPINION: I find it interesting dlbeck included midbass modules with his 212s from the beginning. He likely wouldn't have needed those with the 215RM or Cat12s.
There were several original purposes for the midbass modules (which are really subs that extend down to 10 Hz): overcome room issues, provide fullrange channel capability, and match subwoofer headroom to speaker headroom. The crossover used at dlbeck's open house was 80 Hz and is still being used as far as I know. Nobody complained about a lack of midbass.
Archaea, dlbeck and RMK! like this.
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post #21997 of 36155 Old 08-14-2014, 09:58 AM
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ok so crossover maybe on the lp, but the other two were full range in this measurement? That looks impossible to me.
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post #21998 of 36155 Old 08-14-2014, 10:27 AM
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How does everyone define midbass here? I hope it's the same range for all but what is it? It seems to me that the room has an impact on this range because if I look at the 2 sets of graphs (and I hope I'm reading correctly) the 212LP's start to drop off at 2 different points in Coach's room vs Dgage's....am I reading the graphs correctly? In Coach's room it seems the 212 starts to drop at slightly above 100 but in Dgage's room it looks like there's an increase 100. But there is a significant drop at 200 for Dgage's FR that doesn't exist for the other 2....that has to be room related.


If I am reading these charts and the room has an impact on mid bass....how can adding a MBM help?




Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Here is my initial, pre-DSP measurements of the 212HT-LP, Cat12, and 215RM at the front center of Coach's room.

NOTE: I have a feeling there was a crossover in the signal chain on the 212 that caused it to drop like that but couldn't find it in the time allotted at Coach's.




And here are some old measurements I took of my sealed 212s in my room. You can see that there is a big drop in midbass on the left and right. Sorry my room is my room; there isn't much I can do but make my speakers work in the room, I don't have the luxury of trying them in multiple positions or pulling them more than 6" out from the wall. Like I said, I can work on them more but don't really have time right now.


Nabs17
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post #21999 of 36155 Old 08-14-2014, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by staaled View Post
They should not be placed higher than half wall height according to Dolby :

"For the best sound, place your speakers at or slightly above the height of your ears when
you’re seated. Avoid placing the Dolby Atmos enabled speakers higher than one-half the
height of your wall."

Source : Dolby Atmos® for the Home Theater
August 2014

215's are not small from what I can see.
I was just joking there as top mounted speakers on top of the 215's would basically be on the ceiling.

IMO if you going to do Atoms, then the best way is to do it right. So far it just seems a little gimmicky to me. Certainly this is all just skepticism by me, I have never heard it so really I cannot form an opinion till them. I just don't understand how you mount speakers on top of your mains which will be in the front of the room and now you magically have ceiling surround I would think to have it sound right would be to mount ceiling speakers or in wall ceiling speakers to get the real effect. Just writing this is making me think how expensive this will be and with my upgradititus, I am trying to pretend it will not exist.
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post #22000 of 36155 Old 08-14-2014, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
I was just joking there as top mounted speakers on top of the 215's would basically be on the ceiling.

IMO if you going to do Atoms, then the best way is to do it right. So far it just seems a little gimmicky to me. Certainly this is all just skepticism by me, I have never heard it so really I cannot form an opinion till them. I just don't understand how you mount speakers on top of your mains which will be in the front of the room and now you magically have ceiling surround I would think to have it sound right would be to mount ceiling speakers or in wall ceiling speakers to get the real effect. Just writing this is making me think how expensive this will be and with my upgradititus, I am trying to pretend it will not exist.
While I am far from an Atmos expert, I think the concept is that the front speakers that are "atmos" fire up put also into the room (so not straight up at the ceiling but at an angle so it aligns with perhaps halfway point between the front speaker and seating position...maybe something like 45 degrees up).
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post #22001 of 36155 Old 08-14-2014, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Nabs17 View Post
How does everyone define midbass here? I hope it's the same range for all but what is it? It seems to me that the room has an impact on this range because if I look at the 2 sets of graphs (and I hope I'm reading correctly) the 212LP's start to drop off at 2 different points in Coach's room vs Dgage's....am I reading the graphs correctly? In Coach's room it seems the 212 starts to drop at slightly above 100 but in Dgage's room it looks like there's an increase 100. But there is a significant drop at 200 for Dgage's FR that doesn't exist for the other 2....that has to be room related.


If I am reading these charts and the room has an impact on mid bass....how can adding a MBM help?
the mbm's can have a huge impact especially if location with the drivers is a contributing factor which it almost always is. However if the room mode is severe enough and you don't overcome that with placment or bass trapping or delay then no amount of power and driver displacement will solve the probelm. If the the wave is being perfectly cancelled out by itself, a higher amplitude wave will still cancel itself. In truth they are not ususally perfectly cancelled out so output can help. But let's fix the real time domain problem.
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post #22002 of 36155 Old 08-14-2014, 11:11 AM
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You got it right. The top speakers utilize the ceiling reflection to make them appear as they are coming from above, but IMO, this would seemingly cause all kinds of timing issues. Guess it is really too early to tell.
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post #22003 of 36155 Old 08-14-2014, 11:11 AM
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My guess is that most of the benefits come from making the ceiling an active
part of the room/room acoustics.
Direct sound from ceiling speakers or directed reflections from Atmos capable speakers will dominate the normal ceiling reflections.
Ceiling reflections are perceived mostly in an amplitude sense.

Human hearing is not that capable sensing direction in the vertical plane, unless
one is in horizontal position.
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post #22004 of 36155 Old 08-14-2014, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
While I am far from an Atmos expert, I think the concept is that the front speakers that are "atoms" fire up put also into the room (so not straight up at the ceiling but at an angle so it aligns with perhaps halfway point between the front speaker and seating position…maybe something like 45 degrees up).
I am no expert on the subject either, I have stated every time I have made a statement that it is all a guess to me. But from what I am reading is that top firing speakers are for the people that are not going to do ceiling speakers. For the dedicated enthusiast, most will do something like a 7.2.4 or guys around here 7.8.4 there is also 9.2.2 or 12.4.4. I mean any variation can work. Now for those not using ceiling speakers and sticking with the 5.1 or 7.1 surround sound and want Atmos effect with out tearing up the house, top firing speakers will come into play. Correct me if I am wrong, but this is what I have been reading and it has not been much. There is a Dolby Atmos white paper thread floating around AVS somewhere that Scott Wilkinson posted if anyone has not seen it yet.

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post #22005 of 36155 Old 08-14-2014, 04:53 PM
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I am looking at switching routes slightly and going from stands for my Noesis 228HT to placing them on top of my subs. Any suggestions on the best thing to use to isolate them so there isn't undesired movement/scratching?

• Panasonic TC-P55ST30
• Pioneer SC-1323-K
• Emotiva XPA-2
• JTR Noesis 228HT LCR
• CHT 18.1
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post #22006 of 36155 Old 08-14-2014, 05:13 PM
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I have my 228s on top of my Submersives. I am sure it is not ideal but you do what you have to.
My subs are sealed with dual opposing drives so they don't vibrate at all. I just use small stick on felt pads to reduce any marking on the finish. If you have single driver subs they probably really shake at times.
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post #22007 of 36155 Old 08-14-2014, 05:30 PM
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Can the experts here comment on which would be a better system; Dedicated room for movies and music, don't have any soundproofing. I believe price range is pretty much the same for both brands for the speakers mentioned below.

LCR: JTR 228HT or Procella P6

Surrounds: JTR Slanted 8HT or Procella P5

Subs: Two (should not be more than $3500 for both), haven't decided on the brand.

Are they both good or is one clearly a winner over the other? My budget doesn't allow me to go any higher on either brand. Thoughts on who is the clear winner. Thx
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post #22008 of 36155 Old 08-14-2014, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by smuggymba View Post
Can the experts here comment on which would be a better system; Dedicated room for movies and music, don't have any soundproofing. I believe price range is pretty much the same for both brands for the speakers mentioned below.

LCR: JTR 228HT or Procella P6

Surrounds: JTR Slanted 8HT or Procella P5

Subs: Two (should not be more than $3500 for both), haven't decided on the brand.

Are they both good or is one clearly a winner over the other? My budget doesn't allow me to go any higher on either brand. Thoughts on who is the clear winner. Thx
I remember we talked awhile ago in the dedicated theater thread and I would certainly suggest the 228's all day over the procellas. Not to mention that the 228's are very efficient and won't take more than a good AVR to power them. The same with the slanted 8's as I have 4 of them and love em. Not to mention that you will get a better buy from the JTR's. The 228's are an excellent HT speaker.
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post #22009 of 36155 Old 08-14-2014, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
I remember we talked awhile ago in the dedicated theater thread and I would certainly suggest the 228's all day over the procellas. Not to mention that the 228's are very efficient and won't take more than a good AVR to power them. The same with the slanted 8's as I have 4 of them and love em. Not to mention that you will get a better buy from the JTR's. The 228's are an excellent HT speaker.
++1
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post #22010 of 36155 Old 08-14-2014, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
I remember we talked awhile ago in the dedicated theater thread and I would certainly suggest the 228's all day over the procellas. Not to mention that the 228's are very efficient and won't take more than a good AVR to power them. The same with the slanted 8's as I have 4 of them and love em. Not to mention that you will get a better buy from the JTR's. The 228's are an excellent HT speaker.
Thanks Reefdvr27 and jbrown15.

I understand that this is a JTR enthusiast thread and ppl love their JTR's. I would like to understand what parameters make JTR better than Procella (228 and 8HT VS P5/P6). I was sold on JTR's till someone told me Procella is much better...so trying to make sense of it.

Thanks as always.
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post #22011 of 36155 Old 08-14-2014, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
I remember we talked awhile ago in the dedicated theater thread and I would certainly suggest the 228's all day over the procellas. Not to mention that the 228's are very efficient and won't take more than a good AVR to power them. The same with the slanted 8's as I have 4 of them and love em. Not to mention that you will get a better buy from the JTR's. The 228's are an excellent HT speaker.
+2, and for the subs, if you want to stay all JTR you'd be hard pressed to find a better pair than a set of Passive Caps.. If you're willing to budge just a few hundred to include a "cheap" pro amp. Good luck finding something else that will keep up with those 228's for the price!
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post #22012 of 36155 Old 08-14-2014, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by smuggymba View Post
Thanks Reefdvr27 and jbrown15.

I understand that this is a JTR enthusiast thread and ppl love their JTR's. I would like to understand what parameters make JTR better than Procella (228 and 8HT VS P5/P6). I was sold on JTR's till someone told me Procella is much better...so trying to make sense of it.

Thanks as always.

Hopefully Archaea will weigh as I believe he's heard some of the Procella speakers so he has first hand experience with them.
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post #22013 of 36155 Old 08-14-2014, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Hopefully Archaea will weigh as I believe he's heard some of the Procella speakers so he has first hand experience with them.
Thanks jbrown15. will wait for Archea to respond and send him PM also to remind.

One question for you. I see that you have QS8 surrounds; any reason you didn't go for Slanted 8HT's from JTR? Same on the sub.
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post #22014 of 36155 Old 08-14-2014, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smuggymba View Post
Thanks jbrown15. will wait for Archea to respond and send him PM also to remind.

One question for you. I see that you have QS8 surrounds; any reason you didn't go for Slanted 8HT's from JTR? Same on the sub.

Yeah, because my wife would kill me if I spent 4 grand on surround speakers!....lol
If you take a look at my build thread for my subs it'll give you a idea of what I built. It only cost me 3 grand to build my entire sub setup and I have the equivalent output of 5 Cap 2400 subs. Buying 5 Cap 2400's would cost almost 10 grand.
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post #22015 of 36155 Old 08-14-2014, 06:39 PM
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Yeah, because my wife would kill me if I spent 4 grand on surround speakers!....lol
If you take a look at my build thread for my subs it'll give you a idea of what I built. It only cost me 3 grand to build my entire sub setup and I have the equivalent output of 5 Cap 2400 subs. Buying 5 Cap 2400's would cost almost 10 grand.
You have a great sub build. I think it should inspire many. A wall of bass!!
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post #22016 of 36155 Old 08-14-2014, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post
You have a great sub build. I think it should inspire many. A wall of bass!!
Wow, thank you for the compliment! Yeah I'm extremely happy with how things turned out.
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post #22017 of 36155 Old 08-14-2014, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Yeah, because my wife would kill me if I spent 4 grand on surround speakers!....lol
If you take a look at my build thread for my subs it'll give you a idea of what I built. It only cost me 3 grand to build my entire sub setup and I have the equivalent output of 5 Cap 2400 subs. Buying 5 Cap 2400's would cost almost 10 grand.
My wife is planning on killing me too after I told her that speakers cost 10K (and I wasn't even planning on a second sub). She said everyone buys Bose from costco and they are so happy , so why do you need 10K speakers...lol

I could DIY on the subs to save money but I'm worried if I will just spend money for not so good output. If Subs are that easy to make why do people spend 3K to buy just one
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post #22018 of 36155 Old 08-14-2014, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Wow, thank you for the compliment! Yeah I'm extremely happy with how things turned out.
you are very welcome, it looks great and must sound incredible. For what ever its worth I have 3 OS's and love them, but your set up still makes me think... how about 4 to 8 of those puppies in my room? Great stuff, the only problem with this thread is more of us are not closer geographically.
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post #22019 of 36155 Old 08-14-2014, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by smuggymba View Post
My wife is planning on killing me too after I told her that speakers cost 10K (and I wasn't even planning on a second sub). She said everyone buys Bose from costco and they are so happy , so why do you need 10K speakers...lol

I could DIY on the subs to save money but I'm worried if I will just spend money for not so good output. If Subs are that easy to make why do people spend 3K to buy just one
Everybody is happy with Bose till they hear a full JTR set up. You should see if there is anybody near by that would be willing to give you a demo.
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post #22020 of 36155 Old 08-14-2014, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by smuggymba View Post
Thanks Reefdvr27 and jbrown15.

I understand that this is a JTR enthusiast thread and ppl love their JTR's. I would like to understand what parameters make JTR better than Procella (228 and 8HT VS P5/P6). I was sold on JTR's till someone told me Procella is much better...so trying to make sense of it.

Thanks as always.
I've heard the P8's in a 7 x p8 with the 10 in subs on the bottom of the front 3, at least I think they were 10's, the owner was explaining it to me but I was too busy checking everything out lol. They sounded great. It was a theater build for a friend of my wife.

I can't say I was wowed at any point though. I know he had it calibrated by a pro, as they built the room etc. Keep in mind I have no idea what any settings were as he didn't know either.
I left the room thinking it was nice to see someone with a nice setup but thats as far as it went. It was clear and no sign of any distortion.

Take opinions of speakers with a grain of salt, you simply cant go by what anyone says on some forum to what sounds better or worse.
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Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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