Official JTR speaker thread - Page 736 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #22051 of 28180 Old 08-13-2014, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
Yes, but sometimes there are just plain errors in it. For some of the JVC projectors, I have seen numbers that are way to high and some that were way too low. By the math, they were not using manufacturer's spec numbers, nor were they using actual or calibrated lumens. The numbers were just out in left field.
Ok, I'll take your word for it Mike. As an industry insider, have you given the Projector Central people this feedback? I would be surprised if they are being intentionally misleading but you seem to be implying that or based upon your "left field" comment suggesting incompetence or?

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post #22052 of 28180 Old 08-13-2014, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post
Thanks.......I've been following those threads like a hawk.......

My ceiling is ready for Atmos and was fortunate to verify my design with a a retired Dolby engineer who current has a small foot print in Atmos design. Still, not a lot of viable offerings for speakers which meet Atmos specs.........currently in a conundrum.

Just curious what direction JTR was going since wide dispersion for "VOG" ceiling speakers is a major Atmos requirement........which is antithesis for foundation of JTR brand.
The blow post pretty well sums up the the coaxial design of the JTR Single 8's as an interesting option for Atmos. That is the direction I was going but then I have already vetted them in my room.

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Originally Posted by thxman View Post
For those installing ceiling speakers (for Atmos), they are looking towards coaxial designs since horizontal dispersion patterns for conventional speakers are problematic for these types of installations. This puts the S8 speakers in the spotlight for me. This whole time I was waiting for Jeff to come out with new surrounds to match the Noesis line but it seems he already had what I did not yet know, I needed.

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post #22053 of 28180 Old 08-13-2014, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Nabs17 View Post
Hope this isn't too long...apologize if it is...


I've been following this thread for a little while now, going back more and more pages everyday and have learned a lot from you guys and realize there's more I need to know. I'm in the market for new speakers and I (think) I have narrowed my search down to JTR speakers but I flip-flop so much who knows where I'll be next week. I've also been e-mailing with Jeff with many questions. My last e-mail to him was a which option does he feel is the best for me and I'll provide you guys the options as well but first let me give you all some background:


I have a dedicated space with the following dimensions:


12' wide
23'6" long
9'8" high.


My viewing habits are 95% movie watching with the other 5% video games (Xbox One/360, PS3/4) and during football season I'm in there all day on Sunday's watching games. I have a 110" Stewart Firehawk Screen and above it I have 3 Samsung 40" LED TV's along with the NFL Sunday Ticket....(gotta watch my Cowboys even though they are killing me lately but that's a different story). I have complete light control so when it's movie watching time and it's dark you don't even see the 3 Samsung's. I have 2 rows of seats (3 each) and the first row is about 13' back. In my e-mail to Jeff I told him I was looking for the LCR trio to provide impact, dynamics, big soundstage and clarity and that music wasn't a high priority.


So the options I presented to Jeff is based upon what I've think will be best for me based upon the information I've gathered through reading this thread and anything I can consume from his website and the net. Here are the 3 options I believe are the only ones to give me what I'm looking for:


1) 3x 212HT's
2) 3x 215RM's
3) 2x 215RT/1x 215RM


At this moment, my favorite is option 2 because I think it gives what I'm looking for and gives the best of the other 2 options. However, last week option 3 was my favorite and last month it was option 1 so that's how much I change but at this moment I'm really liking the possibility that option 2 could provide. My current LCR trio is 2x McIntosh SL-6 and 1x McIntosh HT-1. My current subs are svs pb12/2 ultra and they will remain for now. With respect to my surrounds I think i'm 100% sure it will be 4x Slanted 8's which everyone here seems to completely love.


I will let you all know what Jeff says but I am would love to hear any input from you guys that own these and who have heard all 3 speakers in my options. However, something will happen soon just not sure what yet because August is always an expensive month with 2 kids in College and football season...you all know how that goes with fantasy, survivor pools, weekly pools, etc, etc.


Thanks,

Considering that you don't plan on using these for music, just 95% movies and the rest video games and tv I think you're almost silly to spend the extra money on anything other then the 212HT's. IMHO you're better off getting three 212HT's and at the same time buy two Cap 2400's. Sorry to say but there's no way your subs are going to keep up with your JTR speakers.
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post #22054 of 28180 Old 08-13-2014, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Considering that you don't plan on using these for music, just 95% movies and the rest video games and tv I think you're almost silly to spend the extra money on anything other then the 212HT's. IMHO you're better off getting three 212HT's and at the same time buy two Cap 2400's. Sorry to say but there's no way your subs are going to keep up with your JTR speakers.
I was going to respond with the same general sentiment. Based on your habits, your current subs will end up being the weak link in your future system. Get the 212s and the price difference versus the 215s, use to fund some JTR subs. You won't regret the outcome
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post #22055 of 28180 Old 08-13-2014, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Considering that you don't plan on using these for music, just 95% movies and the rest video games and tv I think you're almost silly to spend the extra money on anything other then the 212HT's. IMHO you're better off getting three 212HT's and at the same time buy two Cap 2400's. Sorry to say but there's no way your subs are going to keep up with your JTR speakers.
X2
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post #22056 of 28180 Old 08-13-2014, 02:47 PM
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X2
X3
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post #22057 of 28180 Old 08-13-2014, 02:55 PM
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I'm enjoying using jbrowns 228 for the last week. My room is similar size to his (guy buying) and I have played movies at reference easily. If he's just movies is there a big difference between 228 and 212. He could fund a nice sub for the price difference .
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post #22058 of 28180 Old 08-13-2014, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
The blow post pretty well sums up the the coaxial design of the JTR Single 8's as an interesting option for Atmos. That is the direction I was going but then I have already vetted them in my room.

The issue goes beyond your quoted post/source.........coaxials definitely help with lobing issues.....desired disbursement should be 90 degree conical. The only driver/tweeter combo effectively able to do so are manufactured by Tannoy.

Are you say Rob the S8's have a similar radiating disbursement pattern ie. 90 degree conical? If so, that is a great selling point.........
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post #22059 of 28180 Old 08-13-2014, 03:31 PM
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IMO, all are great options but ... your space @12' is too narrow for the 215's. They are big speakers and need room width as well as depth (which you have) to breathe. As was suggested, I would go with 228's and get some subs that can keep up.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Nabs17 View Post
Hope this isn't too long...apologize if it is...


I've been following this thread for a little while now, going back more and more pages everyday and have learned a lot from you guys and realize there's more I need to know. I'm in the market for new speakers and I (think) I have narrowed my search down to JTR speakers but I flip-flop so much who knows where I'll be next week. I've also been e-mailing with Jeff with many questions. My last e-mail to him was a which option does he feel is the best for me and I'll provide you guys the options as well but first let me give you all some background:


I have a dedicated space with the following dimensions:


12' wide
23'6" long
9'8" high.


My viewing habits are 95% movie watching with the other 5% video games (Xbox One/360, PS3/4) and during football season I'm in there all day on Sunday's watching games. I have a 110" Stewart Firehawk Screen and above it I have 3 Samsung 40" LED TV's along with the NFL Sunday Ticket....(gotta watch my Cowboys even though they are killing me lately but that's a different story). I have complete light control so when it's movie watching time and it's dark you don't even see the 3 Samsung's. I have 2 rows of seats (3 each) and the first row is about 13' back. In my e-mail to Jeff I told him I was looking for the LCR trio to provide impact, dynamics, big soundstage and clarity and that music wasn't a high priority.


So the options I presented to Jeff is based upon what I've think will be best for me based upon the information I've gathered through reading this thread and anything I can consume from his website and the net. Here are the 3 options I believe are the only ones to give me what I'm looking for:


1) 3x 212HT's
2) 3x 215RM's
3) 2x 215RT/1x 215RM


At this moment, my favorite is option 2 because I think it gives what I'm looking for and gives the best of the other 2 options. However, last week option 3 was my favorite and last month it was option 1 so that's how much I change but at this moment I'm really liking the possibility that option 2 could provide. My current LCR trio is 2x McIntosh SL-6 and 1x McIntosh HT-1. My current subs are svs pb12/2 ultra and they will remain for now. With respect to my surrounds I think i'm 100% sure it will be 4x Slanted 8's which everyone here seems to completely love.


I will let you all know what Jeff says but I am would love to hear any input from you guys that own these and who have heard all 3 speakers in my options. However, something will happen soon just not sure what yet because August is always an expensive month with 2 kids in College and football season...you all know how that goes with fantasy, survivor pools, weekly pools, etc, etc.


Thanks,

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post #22060 of 28180 Old 08-13-2014, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post
The issue goes beyond your quoted post/source.........coaxials definitely help with lobing issues.....desired disbursement should be 90 degree conical. The only driver/tweeter combo effectively able to do so are manufactured by Tannoy.

Are you say Rob the S8's have a similar radiating disbursement pattern ie. 90 degree conical? If so, that is a great selling point.........
I believe the S8's dispersion pattern is 90° but don't quote me on it. I believe that Jeff is designing a speaker specifically for this purpose but again. don't quote me. I asked him about this via email this morning and so should hear back by Labor Day ...
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post #22061 of 28180 Old 08-13-2014, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
IMO, all are great options but ... your space @12' is too narrow for the 215's. They are big speakers and need room width as well as depth (which you have) to breathe. As was suggested, I would go with 228's and get some subs that can keep up.
Says who? have you tried them in a room like that? Mine is 13 feet wide and they measure/sound great. I've even talked to Jeff about it and he agreed there no reason they couldn't sound fantastic in a room even smaller than that.

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post #22062 of 28180 Old 08-13-2014, 04:18 PM
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^^ Yes, there's a name for that too....horizontal array
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post #22063 of 28180 Old 08-13-2014, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
We'll see. All I know is if they can pull off a repeat performance then my decision will be made. If not, then I need to reevaluate. Any speaker at this price level needs to do more than just sound a bit better than other speakers I've heard. It needs to be in another league or I'm not buying.
They are definitely already in another league...price league.

Even if 1 or 10 fellow AVS'ers tag along and end up giving you the validation needed to sway your opinion, you still would be missing approval from...your room.

I've been feeling a bit jaded over the past few months listening to a lot of different speakers all in different spaces. I just don't see how anyone can definitively say that speaker x is better than speaker y, especially when you bring said speaker in a different acoustical environment it changes EVERYTHING...

So this repeat performance (in their space) sounds like it's going to be a lock. Even if you were to bring your 212's to compare them directly, it would be a totally different listening environment and will inevitably make your 212's sound different (better? / worse?) that what may be used to.

The M2's were designed to have one of the flattest FR curves most people have ever seen! How does that translate in the room you are demoing them in?

Sounds like you want to make a big money decision based on a (most likely) better optimized space for those particular speakers and some subjective opinions from other enthusiasts that you (and I myself) respect and trust. I mean, I understand if you want to make a buying decision on those points alone and would rather keep the demo casual, but man... Wouldn't you like to objectively see how the time and frequency domains are effecting your subjective impressions?

You should let your host know that you are (at least) bringing your Omnimic to run some sweeps and do some testing. Unless a $20K decision just isn't worth the hassle.

I'd just hate to see their decay measure similar to this:


Only to find that the M2's don't sound incredible in your room because your decay measures closer to this:


Those are extreme examples, but I'm sure you get my drift.

Would be cool if you could get detailed measurements at their shop, then take the time to try to replicate the FR and waterfall in your room...Maybe it could be an improvement or really close to what you were hearing with the M2's? In theory?

Just trying to keep part of your kids college fund intact.
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post #22064 of 28180 Old 08-13-2014, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Considering that you don't plan on using these for music, just 95% movies and the rest video games and tv I think you're almost silly to spend the extra money on anything other then the 212HT's. IMHO you're better off getting three 212HT's and at the same time buy two Cap 2400's. Sorry to say but there's no way your subs are going to keep up with your JTR speakers.
First, I'll agree that your subs are not going to keep up with any of the JTRs. To save money, you might want to look at some DIY subs for bass.

Regarding the JTR speaker recommendations, I PERSONALLY can only recommend the JTR 215s, either RM or RT, as I feel all of the others are lacking in the midbass (haven't heard 228). Now if you plan to add Mid Bass Modules (MBMs), then any of the JTRs would work. I really do like the upper range of the 212, even more than the 215, but both are very good and articulate. Coach and I have A/B'd the 212 against the 215 and even though they have the same coaxial compression driver, the 215 is voiced a little different, a little more laid back than the 212. I find the midrange on the 212 and 215 to be about the same, which means very good. My favorite THEATER speaker in the JTR lineup is the 215RM, simply an amazing speaker but it is LARGE. 215RT is not large, its a refrigerator. Again, these are my OPINIONs.
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post #22065 of 28180 Old 08-13-2014, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by randyc1 View Post
Damm ! , ...everytime i hear a about these little S8 speakers, people are completly AMAZED by them !!
I have read the same thing and I wasn't as enamored with the S8s as everyone else when I tried them temporarily as mains. Compared to the 212, they might as well be Polk speakers. Sorry if that is harsh but they are nice but in my opinion not as nice as some are saying. When I previously brought up my concerns, others then started saying "for what they are". I think the S8 is a fine surround speaker but I would never use it as a main speaker. And I should say that my issue with the S8 are more towards the sonic signature than to their dynamic or loudness capabilities, which I would say are definitely considerable.

I'm not bad mouthing the S8 as I have 4 for surround duty and can't think of any earthly reason for me to change...I'll even likely add a couple for Atmos however far in the future. I just want to give another viewpoint that the S8 isn't a Noesis or anything.

Speakers are a truly personal choice and we each have different characterstics we like. I personally am excited that Rhed is as impressed as he is. I think that is truly awesome and I'm happy for him. I don't want anyone thinking I am saying Rhed's opinion is wrong...I just know Rhed and I aren't the same.

David

EDIT: And since I just saw Popalocks post about rooms affecting speakers, I have listened to the S8 in my untreated room as well as Coach's treated room. My opinion of the S8s didn't change the second time I heard them as mains in Coach's room. They weren't EQ'd as mains in either case, but then again, it sounds like Rhed just plugged them in and started listening. I really enjoyed the 212s when I just hooked them up and started listening. Of course any speaker is likely much better when EQd to address room interactions.

Last edited by dgage; 08-13-2014 at 05:59 PM.
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post #22066 of 28180 Old 08-13-2014, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
Says who? have you tried them in a room like that? Mine is 13 feet wide and they measure/sound great. I've even talked to Jeff about it and he agreed there no reason they couldn't sound fantastic in a room even smaller than that.
I should point out that my room is acoustically treated pretty well. I have a total of 10 GIK 244 Bass Traps...6 in the front to handle first reflections. 4 in the back with the scatter plate option installed. 4 GIK Soffit bass traps, 2 in each rear corner. 2 GIK Tri traps...1 in each front corner and 4 GIK gridfusor in the middle back of the room.


Just wanted to point that out and I do appreciate the input I've received thus far.


I will also say that I do have plans to get 2 S2's in the future....I've always wanted to go that route but as I said August isn't cheap.


I'll move the SVS's to my bedroom system.

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post #22067 of 28180 Old 08-13-2014, 06:08 PM
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And Coach had to go and do it. As good as the 215s sound, they really are a little big for his room.

FS: JTR 215RT and 215RM
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post #22068 of 28180 Old 08-13-2014, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
First, I'll agree that your subs are not going to keep up with any of the JTRs. To save money, you might want to look at some DIY subs for bass.

Regarding the JTR speaker recommendations, I PERSONALLY can only recommend the JTR 215s, either RM or RT, as I feel all of the others are lacking in the midbass (haven't heard 228). Now if you plan to add Mid Bass Modules (MBMs), then any of the JTRs would work. I really do like the upper range of the 212, even more than the 215, but both are very good and articulate. Coach and I have A/B'd the 212 against the 215 and even though they have the same coaxial compression driver, the 215 is voiced a little different, a little more laid back than the 212. I find the midrange on the 212 and 215 to be about the same, which means very good. My favorite THEATER speaker in the JTR lineup is the 215RM, simply an amazing speaker but it is LARGE. 215RT is not large, its a refrigerator. Again, these are my OPINIONs.

LOL.... you make it sound like anything other then 215's sound like Bose when it comes to mid bass....LOL
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post #22069 of 28180 Old 08-13-2014, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Nabs17 View Post
I should point out that my room is acoustically treated pretty well. I have a total of 10 GIK 244 Bass Traps...6 in the front to handle first reflections. 4 in the back with the scatter plate option installed. 4 GIK Soffit bass traps, 2 in each rear corner. 2 GIK Tri traps...1 in each front corner and 4 GIK gridfusor in the middle back of the room.


Just wanted to point that out and I do appreciate the input I've received thus far.


I will also say that I do have plans to get 2 S2's in the future....I've always wanted to go that route but as I said August isn't cheap.


I'll move the SVS's to my bedroom system.
My room is treated with ATS. In reality, no matter what you do, it will be awesome! I'm actually enjoying my 215's right now!

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post #22070 of 28180 Old 08-13-2014, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
And Coach had to go and do it. As good as the 215s sound, they really are a little big for his room.

FS: JTR 215RT and 215RM
I just saw that and would take them off his hands if they weren't too large for my space as well..which is why I bought the 212s several months back. Sounds like he must have enjoyed the other speakers both of you were auditioning. Somebody is going to get a heck a deal from a heck of guy
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post #22071 of 28180 Old 08-13-2014, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
And Coach had to go and do it. As good as the 215s sound, they really are a little big for his room.

FS: JTR 215RT and 215RM

What is coach replacing them with? Cat12's?
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post #22072 of 28180 Old 08-13-2014, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
And Coach had to go and do it. As good as the 215s sound, they really are a little big for his room.

FS: JTR 215RT and 215RM
Yeah I saw that. Is this really a case of too big for his room...is it layout? I can't imagine his room is smaller than mine.

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post #22073 of 28180 Old 08-13-2014, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
What is coach replacing them with? Cat12's?
Yes. If I can move my 215's, I will.

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Yeah I saw that. Is this really a case of too big for his room...is it layout? I can't imagine his room is smaller than mine.
They are bigger than I want in my room. Dgage can confirm this, but my screen wall is right when you walk in and they are almost in the way of when you walk in.
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post #22074 of 28180 Old 08-13-2014, 07:20 PM
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What is coach replacing them with? Cat12's?
That is my understanding from PMing with him. To be honest, I have always been intruiged by the cat12s myself but just never had a chance to audition them. Also was never sure if built in amps were for me...plus I loved every JTR I have owned so I have stuck with the brand.

Edit: looks like Coach just responded so now my post is a duplicate...sorry

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post #22075 of 28180 Old 08-13-2014, 07:22 PM
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I've heard the Cat12's a few times. They are great speakers, anyone would be happy with them!

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #22076 of 28180 Old 08-13-2014, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
What is coach replacing them with? Cat12's?
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
That is my understanding from PMing with him. To be honest, I have always been intruiged by the cat12s myself but just never had a chance to audition them. Also was never sure if build in amps was for me...plus I loved every JTR I have owned so I have stuck with the brand.

Edit: looks like Coach just responded so now my post is a duplicate...sorry
No worries. It has consumed me more than it should. Lol. We(Dgage)and I have done some extensive A/B/C comparing between the 212, 215RM and the Cat12. Great thing about this hobby is, we all have different tastes in sound and their are plenty of options. Both brands are great.
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post #22077 of 28180 Old 08-13-2014, 07:39 PM
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Considering that you don't plan on using these for music, just 95% movies and the rest video games and tv I think you're almost silly to spend the extra money on anything other then the 212HT's. IMHO you're better off getting three 212HT's and at the same time buy two Cap 2400's. Sorry to say but there's no way your subs are going to keep up with your JTR speakers.
If you are 100% movies and games I would go for the 228's and take the $6000k you save over buying 215's and buy some awesome subs.

They guys are right, I have had those subs and they will not be able to keep up with any of the JTR speakers.
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post #22078 of 28180 Old 08-13-2014, 07:41 PM
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LOL.... you make it sound like anything other then 215's sound like Bose when it comes to mid bass....LOL
When you put it like that...they're not that bad. But for home theater, at the cost of the JTRs, even the 228HTs, I just don't think there is enough midbass to truly recreate scenes like the Book of Eli Gatling Gun scene. Obviously many disagree with me and I am OK with that. I hope people choose whatever speaker makes them happy. But this is a forum and I have an informed opinion now that I didn't when I first bought the JTR 212s, so I feel it is just as applicable as those that love every single JTR speaker. And since this is the AV Science forum, I would be glad to share some of my measurements where the left 212 has a dip at 100Hz and no matter how much boost I give it with the NanoAVR, I can't compensate for it. So there, opinion backed by science.
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post #22079 of 28180 Old 08-13-2014, 07:51 PM
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When you put it like that...they're not that bad. But for home theater, at the cost of the JTRs, even the 228HTs, I just don't think there is enough midbass to truly recreate scenes like the Book of Eli Gatling Gun scene. Obviously many disagree with me and I am OK with that. I hope people choose whatever speaker makes them happy. But this is a forum and I have an informed opinion now that I didn't when I first bought the JTR 212s, so I feel it is just as applicable as those that love every single JTR speaker. And since this is the AV Science forum, I would be glad to share some of my measurements where the left 212 has a dip at 100Hz and no matter how much boost I give it with the NanoAVR, I can't compensate for it. So there, opinion backed by science.
You and coach did it the right way. You had the 212s, 215s and Seatons on hand and have real world experience with all the speakers in the same room. Hard to argue with your process and your opinions. On a side note, have you considered crossing your AVR at 100HZ to avoid the dip all together? THat is what I do with my 212s and S2s and loved the results ...think I stole the idea from Carp last year
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post #22080 of 28180 Old 08-13-2014, 08:04 PM
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Yeah I saw that. Is this really a case of too big for his room...is it layout? I can't imagine his room is smaller than mine.
His listening position is really close to the front line of speakers. The 215RT/RM have a horn that is a little more directional so they provide a large soundstage but it is still somewhat of a directional soundstage that benefits from the seating being a few feet further back than Coach's room allows. Actually, perched on the back row of seats in Coach's room, the 215s sound really sweet. Up at the front row, the Cats seem to have the wider soundstage that works better.

Regarding sound quality, with a rough calibration I liked the 215s just a little better than the Cat12s, mainly with music. But for theater, it really felt like Coke vs Pepsi that was already mentioned. Now, that was with a rough calibration as I only had a couple of hours to setup the 212, 215, and Cat12s. With that setup the 215 and Cats were in the same league and I really couldn't pick a favorite and neither could Coach. Coach had his calibrator out today to optimize the Cats and I guess it was good enough to put the Cat12s over the top. Both of them are truly great speakers and I would be happy with either, provided my room was big enough for the 215s.
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