Official JTR speaker thread - Page 737 - AVS Forum
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post #22081 of 26446 Old 08-13-2014, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
You and coach did it the right way. You had the 212s, 215s and Seatons on hand and have real world experience with all the speakers in the same room. Hard to argue with your process and your opinions. On a side note, have you considered crossing your AVR at 100HZ to avoid the dip all together? THat is what I do with my 212s and S2s and loved the results ...think I stole the idea from Carp last year
Thanks Frohlich. I've had my front pair of LMS5400s crossed over as high as 175Hz but the LMS5400s start dropping naturally at 150Hz which should be high enough. I really didn't have enough time to dial them in and see if they were ultimately what I was looking for. I will work on that again later but I've been preoccupied with starting a business. My speakers are definitely on the to do list but further down now.
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post #22082 of 26446 Old 08-13-2014, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
When you put it like that...they're not that bad. But for home theater, at the cost of the JTRs, even the 228HTs, I just don't think there is enough midbass to truly recreate scenes like the Book of Eli Gatling Gun scene. Obviously many disagree with me and I am OK with that. I hope people choose whatever speaker makes them happy. But this is a forum and I have an informed opinion now that I didn't when I first bought the JTR 212s, so I feel it is just as applicable as those that love every single JTR speaker. And since this is the AV Science forum, I would be glad to share some of my measurements where the left 212 has a dip at 100Hz and no matter how much boost I give it with the NanoAVR, I can't compensate for it. So there, opinion backed by science.

I propose your room is making a 100hz dip in the frequency response on the 212HT!?!? I don't think that is something I've seen in various other 212HT frequency response plots.
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post #22083 of 26446 Old 08-13-2014, 09:05 PM
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I propose your room is making a 100hz dip in the frequency response on the 212HT!?!? I don't think that is something I've seen in various other 212HT frequency response plots.
I'll try to do some measurements this weekend and check the signal chain to make sure there aren't any weird settings but I've seen it at my house as well as Coach's. And in the A/B/Cing Coach and I did, the 212 was definitely light in the midbass compared to the 215RM and Cat12. Much bigger difference than I would expect between a pair of 12s and a pair of 15s. I'll be glad to share the measurements from each of my 212HT-LPs as soon as I get a chance.
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post #22084 of 26446 Old 08-13-2014, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post
No worries. It has consumed me more than it should. Lol. We(Dgage)and I have done some extensive A/B/C comparing between the 212, 215RM and the Cat12. Great thing about this hobby is, we all have different tastes in sound and their are plenty of options. Both brands are great.
Over the last year I've become really interested in the Cat12's but it would be a huge pain in the A$$ to get RCA cables to the front of my room to hook up to them. And honestly being located in Canada has really killed the idea of owning them, at $3795ea plus shipping buying three would easily cost me over 14 grand after shipping, taxes and the US/Can exchange rate. My wife would literally cut my B@LL's off if she found out I spend that much on three speakers!....lol
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post #22085 of 26446 Old 08-13-2014, 09:29 PM
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They are definitely already in another league...price league.

Even if 1 or 10 fellow AVS'ers tag along and end up giving you the validation needed to sway your opinion, you still would be missing approval from...your room.

I've been feeling a bit jaded over the past few months listening to a lot of different speakers all in different spaces. I just don't see how anyone can definitively say that speaker x is better than speaker y, especially when you bring said speaker in a different acoustical environment it changes EVERYTHING...

So this repeat performance (in their space) sounds like it's going to be a lock. Even if you were to bring your 212's to compare them directly, it would be a totally different listening environment and will inevitably make your 212's sound different (better? / worse?) that what may be used to.

The M2's were designed to have one of the flattest FR curves most people have ever seen! How does that translate in the room you are demoing them in?

Sounds like you want to make a big money decision based on a (most likely) better optimized space for those particular speakers and some subjective opinions from other enthusiasts that you (and I myself) respect and trust. I mean, I understand if you want to make a buying decision on those points alone and would rather keep the demo casual, but man... Wouldn't you like to objectively see how the time and frequency domains are effecting your subjective impressions?

You should let your host know that you are (at least) bringing your Omnimic to run some sweeps and do some testing. Unless a $20K decision just isn't worth the hassle.

I'd just hate to see their decay measure similar to this:


Only to find that the M2's don't sound incredible in your room because your decay measures closer to this:


Those are extreme examples, but I'm sure you get my drift.

Would be cool if you could get detailed measurements at their shop, then take the time to try to replicate the FR and waterfall in your room...Maybe it could be an improvement or really close to what you were hearing with the M2's? In theory?

Just trying to keep part of your kids college fund intact.
Your points are very, very, very well taken and well written. I appreciate the response and it's intent immensely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjnbB_gPPAc#t=24

Prior to hearing the M2's I would have been "+10" about your post and the whole issue because, quite frankly, over the past couple of years of tracking down and listening to the top dog high output designs in the JTR/Seaton price range, I have not heard any design that was head and shoulders above any of the others. Different rooms definitely changed the character of speakers to a degree, but my overall impressions have always been consistent across very different rooms. The overall strength of a design has always shown through, even if it didn't have exactly the same sonic character from room to room. I've never thought my 212's sounded bad, nor have I ever heard them elevate their performance into another class altogether - in any room. In other words, although the 212 is a great speaker and I still love it regardless of some nits I have with it, I have never, in any room, thought to myself that it might actually be the "perfect" speaker, or thought that it ever truly realistically reproduced piano keystrokes, or had a special clarity, or that it exactly and realistically reproduced vocals so convincingly that the artist was in the room. Now I'm not beating on my 212's, because I didnt experience that with any of the others either. Seaton, JTR, Danley. I could be happy with any one of them. They're all great speakers and although different, similar in overall SQ IMO.

But the differences I heard with the M2 were not on the same level as say differences in the 212's from room to room, or the differences between the Seatons or the JTR's. It was more fundamental than that. Could it be I've simply never heard all the other speakers in the right room? Or properly setup? Could be I suppose. But I can tell you the room in which I listened to the M2's was not that room either.

Two walls were glass. There is a huge desk in the fashion of a control board in front of the speakers, and a computer monitor blocking part of the horn. No carpet - all hardwood floors. Yea, there were some 1st reflection and corner panels but no bass traps. This was NOT some high end optimized listening room at a boutique showroom. This was in a warehouse and was simply a windowed office cubicle that probably housed a secretary before they put the speakers in there. Seriously. One thing I'm not concerned about is whether I can match the acoustics of that space. If anything it was an acoustic disaster. When I walked into the room my first thought was I can't believe they're demoing speakers of this price range in a room like this!

So I know you're jaded, but have you considered the fact that it's possible out of all the speakers you've listened to that you simply haven't heard something like the M2? Just looking at the FR suggests there is definitely something different from the other speakers. And there's an entirely unique compression driver design from anything your ears have ever heard. After all, we've all been running in the same basic circle of speakers and designs. I'm comfortable in saying that I've likely heard 95%(or some high percentage) of all the speakers you've heard in the past couple of years. I will simply suggest that the M2 might just be different enough from those designs to explain what I heard as more than just being in a great room - which it clearly wasn't. Believe me, I am more than willing to accept the fact I could be deluding myself, but there is still the other side of the coin.

I'm no acoustic newbee, nor an expert, but I know enough to see that the room had enough disasters to make me cringe. But if that's the room I have to replicate it should be relatively easy. Rip my carpets up, place a big coffee table and large family photo frames in front of the horns, and a few 2" wall panels and I'm good to go . But I have yet to put a speaker in my room that I thought sounded good in another room and then after placing in my room I felt like I just got stuck with a different speaker. Might need a little tuning or adjusting, but fundamentally the same speaker. So I'm not overly concerned here about that, but I also don't discount the possibility that it could happen.

No, I'm mostly worried that I succumbed to expectation bias or a placebo effect. Having only listened one time my mind is worried about these things. If anything I'll be able to improve the acoustics. One or two other people looking at me saying, "dude, you're not hearing things" would actually make me feel better. Not just the sales guy shaking his head affirmatively and saying, "yep, everyone's been saying that". If they don't hear what I'm hearing then I have to decide if it's just a preference thing or I'm doing the $10,000 speaker wire thing. Or the, "I just upgraded my 75 watt amp to 100 watts and they're like new speakers!" thing.

The measurement suggestion is great and I will definitely do that. I suppose if I bring them home and they sound like crap in my room I could finally give my wife that coffee table she's always wanted and let her decorate the space .

Fact is I never thought I would consider a speaker in this price range and it's causing me to do more than my typical impulse buy. You're opening line suggests you're thinking these are simply overpriced retreads, and that is a healthy attitude. But my initial listening impressions have me going, "dude, I'm tellin' you, these might be different...."
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post #22086 of 26446 Old 08-13-2014, 09:46 PM
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@Gooddoc , would you just be buying the M2 speakers or would you also get the amps that go along with them?
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post #22087 of 26446 Old 08-13-2014, 10:09 PM
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The package on the professional sound company's website that was listed previously looks pretty dam potent. Those Crown amps are freakin monsters.

Current Gear: PJ – BenQ PE7700; Receiver - Onkyo TX-SR805; Blu Ray - OppoBDP 103; Turntable - Dual CS-515 w/ Ortofon Super OM10; Amplifiers - OdysseyKhartago, Adcom GFA555, QSC RMX 1850HD; PEQ - Behringer FBD2496 [Near FieldSub], miniDSP 2×4 [Flanking Subs], REW; Speakers - 4 Pi (w/B&C DE250/JBL2226H) × 3 [LCR], Yamaha Crap × 2 [surrounds], Exodus Audio Maelstrom-X18" sealed sub [near field sub], LAB-12 based ported sub tuned to 22 Hz x2 [flanking subs, XO set at 40 Hz]
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post #22088 of 26446 Old 08-13-2014, 10:23 PM
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Just incase you missed my post. I was playing the S8's with the 4 S2's. Not on their own. It could just be a good combo that made it sound that good to me. That's why I said 5 or 7 of these with a cap or two would be awesome. I really was impress with them though. Didn't even get to the 215's yet..lol

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I have read the same thing and I wasn't as enamored with the S8s as everyone else when I tried them temporarily as mains. Compared to the 212, they might as well be Polk speakers. Sorry if that is harsh but they are nice but in my opinion not as nice as some are saying. When I previously brought up my concerns, others then started saying "for what they are". I think the S8 is a fine surround speaker but I would never use it as a main speaker. And I should say that my issue with the S8 are more towards the sonic signature than to their dynamic or loudness capabilities, which I would say are definitely considerable.

I'm not bad mouthing the S8 as I have 4 for surround duty and can't think of any earthly reason for me to change...I'll even likely add a couple for Atmos however far in the future. I just want to give another viewpoint that the S8 isn't a Noesis or anything.

Speakers are a truly personal choice and we each have different characterstics we like. I personally am excited that Rhed is as impressed as he is. I think that is truly awesome and I'm happy for him. I don't want anyone thinking I am saying Rhed's opinion is wrong...I just know Rhed and I aren't the same.

David

EDIT: And since I just saw Popalocks post about rooms affecting speakers, I have listened to the S8 in my untreated room as well as Coach's treated room. My opinion of the S8s didn't change the second time I heard them as mains in Coach's room. They weren't EQ'd as mains in either case, but then again, it sounds like Rhed just plugged them in and started listening. I really enjoyed the 212s when I just hooked them up and started listening. Of course any speaker is likely much better when EQd to address room interactions.
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post #22089 of 26446 Old 08-13-2014, 10:34 PM
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Just incase you missed my post. I was playing the S8's with the 4 S2's. Not on their own. It could just be a good combo that made it sound that good to me. That's why I said 5 or 7 of these with a cap or two would be awesome. I really was impress with them though. Didn't even get to the 215's yet..lol
I'm glad you are enjoying them so much...but dammit, you have 215s...what the hell are you waiting for. And regarding the S8s, I was also running them with subs. I just don't like the tonal qualities of the S8 as much as the Noesis, for me its like NIGHT and DAY. Maybe I just expected more after hearing some people gush about them in one of the GTGs. If we all liked the same thing, there wouldn't be so many speaker companies.
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post #22090 of 26446 Old 08-13-2014, 10:42 PM
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I propose your room is making a 100hz dip in the frequency response on the 212HT!?!? I don't think that is something I've seen in various other 212HT frequency response plots.
Unless the speaker is broken it is certainly the room. My 212HT L&R measured at the MLP with no subs and no eq give a huge increase starting at 150hz. The center has a dip around 80 but the huge jump in midbass (I hate that non descript term) from 150hz down to about 90hz for all three. I almost have to laugh when I keep reading about this midbass issue for the 212. In pure output down to 80 hz the 212HT has more than the 215! Lower than that yes the 215 takes over. If matched with subs designed to cross between 80-100hz I don't see the issue. No matter how we define midbass I think we would agree it is in the modal region, so Archea is likely correct about the room.


In my system the output from 20hz-150hz is over 130dB at the MLP which is 13 ft from the LCR's!.


Here is the L&R 212HT no subs no eq. The the last FR is with the OS's integrated and turned down for movie (more flat). Every room will be different.
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post #22091 of 26446 Old 08-13-2014, 10:47 PM
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I bet it's night and day with the noesis. I'd never compare the two. That's just two different animals. But the S8's would be a good setup with subs for some who really want to get to reference without breaking the bank. I mean hell they do sound a lot better then my Mythos setup.. Lol.. Good to hear you and coach doin the a/b/c comparison. Those cats are impressive speakers also. Btw d, I'm looking to dive into the DIY world by next year. I have room for 2 FTW 21's. Mainly experimental purpose bro..

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I'm glad you are enjoying them so much...but dammit, you have 215s...what the hell are you waiting for. And regarding the S8s, I was also running them with subs. I just don't like the tonal qualities of the S8 as much as the Noesis, for me its like NIGHT and DAY. Maybe I just expected more after hearing some people gush about them in one of the GTGs. If we all liked the same thing, there wouldn't be so many speaker companies.
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post #22092 of 26446 Old 08-13-2014, 10:52 PM
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Unless the speaker is broken it is certainly the room. My 212HT L&R measured at the MLP with no subs and no eq give a huge increase starting at 150hz. The center has a dip around 80 but the huge jump in midbass (I hate that non descript term) from 150hz down to about 90hz for all three. I almost have to laugh when I keep reading about this midbass issue for the 212. In pure output down to 80 hz the 212HT has more than the 215! Lower than that yes the 215 takes over. If matched with subs designed to cross between 80-100hz I don't see the issue. No matter how we define midbass I think we would agree it is in the modal region, so Archea is likely correct about the room.


In my system the output from 20hz-150hz is over 130dB at the MLP which is 13 ft from the LCR's!.


Here is the L&R 212HT no subs no eq. The the last FR is with the OS's integrated and turned down for movie (more flat). Every room will be different.
The only comment I have is that I have the 212HT-LP, which is the sealed version. It could be a different animal than the ported, it may be since I'm one of the few complaining but also one of the few with the sealed 212. I'll not say anymore until I do some more testing in my room and Coach's.
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post #22093 of 26446 Old 08-13-2014, 10:58 PM
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I bet it's night and day with the noesis. I'd never compare the two. That's just two different animals. But the S8's would be a good setup with subs for some who really want to get to reference without breaking the bank. I mean hell they do sound a lot better then my Mythos setup.. Lol.. Good to hear you and coach doin the a/b/c comparison. Those cats are impressive speakers also. Btw d, I'm looking to dive into the DIY world by next year. I have room for 2 FTW 21's. Mainly experimental purpose bro..
I've heard others say the Noesis and S8 are different animals but they're both speakers and the S8 isn't exactly cheap at $1000+. To me a speaker is a speaker, especially at this level. So I guess my outlook on the matter is a little different, which seems to be a common thread with me tonight.

I haven't heard the FTW-21s but they should be fun and I'd expect a very nice sub. You are going to have one of the best systems on the entire island chain. As if I needed any more reason to visit the islands.
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post #22094 of 26446 Old 08-13-2014, 11:03 PM
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The only comment I have is that I have the 212HT-LP, which is the sealed version. It could be a different animal than the ported, it may be since I'm one of the few complaining but also one of the few with the sealed 212. I'll not say anymore until I do some more testing in my room and Coach's.

Don't get me wrong I am not saying you don't have a midbass issue it is just the cause that needs to be fully examined. Here is a plot from back in 2012 of my T12LP. Not the exact same speaker as yours but for this part of the FR it should measure the same. Also MBM's are a great resolution to the problem but because of placement and proximity to boundaries not necessarily output. This is why you see so many guys in the DIY forum go crazy when they see someone place an MBM exactly where their floorstander was, had a midbass issue. But hey at least they look symmetrical


Just for interest here is that sealed T12. Not trying to start a big controversy but make sure new buyers really have additional facts and view points to consider that's all.
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post #22095 of 26446 Old 08-13-2014, 11:17 PM
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@Gooddoc , would you just be buying the M2 speakers or would you also get the amps that go along with them?
I have a call out to the JBL rep to talk to him about using their outboard processor and my LG. So not sure yet.
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post #22096 of 26446 Old 08-13-2014, 11:18 PM
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I've heard others say the Noesis and S8 are different animals but they're both speakers and the S8 isn't exactly cheap at $1000+. To me a speaker is a speaker, especially at this level. So I guess my outlook on the matter is a little different, which seems to be a common thread with me tonight.
I use to think the S8's were pricey at $1000ea but once you start to factor in a few things the price makes sense. I mean its using a mid and coax compression driver setup that costs $500 alone. Then you factor in the cost of building a crossover and having the cabinets built and finished.
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post #22097 of 26446 Old 08-14-2014, 02:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Your points are very, very, very well taken and well written. I appreciate the response and it's intent immensely.

...

Fact is I never thought I would consider a speaker in this price range and it's causing me to do more than my typical impulse buy. You're opening line suggests you're thinking these are simply overpriced retreads, and that is a healthy attitude. But my initial listening impressions have me going, "dude, I'm tellin' you, these might be different...."
All points well taken. They sound like beasts for sure! Your explanation gets me more excited to seek them out for a demo, that's for sure.

Thanks for the thorough response.

Would be very cool to get some measurements of the M2's in the room you are demoing them in!
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post #22098 of 26446 Old 08-14-2014, 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
I've heard others say the Noesis and S8 are different animals but they're both speakers and the S8 isn't exactly cheap at $1000+. To me a speaker is a speaker, especially at this level. So I guess my outlook on the matter is a little different, which seems to be a common thread with me tonight.

I haven't heard the FTW-21s but they should be fun and I'd expect a very nice sub. You are going to have one of the best systems on the entire island chain. As if I needed any more reason to visit the islands.
Yea, I'm thinking putting each on a sealed enclosure (2.0X2.0X1.58). Should be a little over 6 cu ft per recommended sealed use on IST's website. And putting them on the side of each 215's. Then pickup another inuke 6 dsp to run them. I'm kind of excited to get on this. Problem is I gotta my friend to order them for me. Well because of the wifey situation. Can't let her see I spent 1400$ on subwoofer drivers.Lol.. And if she ask where I got them, I tell her I got for dirt cheap from a friend..lol.. Can't wait to do it. My kids music lessons and other classes will soon be on the week days. So I'll get my Sat. Sun off. As soon as I'm done with my JTR setup then I'm ordering these drivers..
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post #22099 of 26446 Old 08-14-2014, 05:05 AM
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Yea, I'm thinking putting each on a sealed enclosure (2.0X2.0X1.58). Should be a little over 6 cu ft per recommended sealed use on IST's website. And putting them on the side of each 215's. Then pickup another inuke 6 dsp to run them. I'm kind of excited to get on this. Problem is I gotta my friend to order them for me. Well because of the wifey situation. Can't let her see I spent 1400$ on subwoofer drivers.Lol.. And if she ask where I got them, I tell her I got for dirt cheap from a friend..lol.. Can't wait to do it. My kids music lessons and other classes will soon be on the week days. So I'll get my Sat. Sun off. As soon as I'm done with my JTR setup then I'm ordering these drivers..
Thats why I love this country and this forum!!!! You bought half of Jeff's warehouse in JTR speakers in the last 12 months but then have to dodge the wifey for the last couple of small items. Most of us are always looking for the next amp to try, the next sub, the next format such as Atmos, it never ends but sure is fun journey.

Last year when I upgraded from the T12s to the 212s my wife said you are buying the exact same looking speaker but its going to cost additional money. I said shut your pie hole ( not really). Told her my hobby was relatively cheap compared to her Pottery Barn addiction and she just said I was right and walked away.
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post #22100 of 26446 Old 08-14-2014, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post
All points well taken. They sound like beasts for sure! Your explanation gets me more excited to seek them out for a demo, that's for sure.

Thanks for the thorough response.

Would be very cool to get some measurements of the M2's in the room you are demoing them in!
I can't think of a single reason NOT to get measurements.
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post #22101 of 26446 Old 08-14-2014, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
First, I'll agree that your subs are not going to keep up with any of the JTRs. To save money, you might want to look at some DIY subs for bass.

Regarding the JTR speaker recommendations, I PERSONALLY can only recommend the JTR 215s, either RM or RT, as I feel all of the others are lacking in the midbass (haven't heard 228). Now if you plan to add Mid Bass Modules (MBMs), then any of the JTRs would work. I really do like the upper range of the 212, even more than the 215, but both are very good and articulate. Coach and I have A/B'd the 212 against the 215 and even though they have the same coaxial compression driver, the 215 is voiced a little different, a little more laid back than the 212. I find the midrange on the 212 and 215 to be about the same, which means very good. My favorite THEATER speaker in the JTR lineup is the 215RM, simply an amazing speaker but it is LARGE. 215RT is not large, its a refrigerator. Again, these are my OPINIONs.
The JTR speakers are voiced flat which is Jeff's preference but it is counter to what most people find appealing. To counter this you just need to boost the mid-bass up with an EQ to get the sound you want. The speakers are more than capable enough to take the boost you give them and no suffer and ill consequences. Now the only thing that boosting cannot do is overcome room issues. The only way to overcome these are to either move the speaker placement or modify the room. You mentioned a 100Hz hole which you couldn't EQ out which would be due to a room / speaker placement issue. http://peavey.com/support/technotes/...ncellation.cfm

I have had my T12s for a couple years now and recently EQ'd them which made the mid-bass and even bass from them really stand out. The bass was enough to where I thought the subs kicked on in addition to the L / R speakers.

Added in Edit: You mentioned that the speakers had the same FR in two rooms. If this is the case I would say possibly a faulty speaker. One sure fire way to test, but a pain, would be to test the FR out in an open field.

Last edited by smbsocal; 08-14-2014 at 06:24 AM. Reason: Added comment about second room measurement.
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post #22102 of 26446 Old 08-14-2014, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
There was talk early on about it and I cannot speak for everybody, but I think most of the regulars agreed that until there is content and a proven source to drive it, there really not much to talk about. I was reading about the new Atmos units in the Crutchfield catalog and some of units say firmware upgrade? I know I am not laying down the cash for hopes of a firmware upgrade. Most of these early AVR's seem to be geared towards basic set ups for the top firing speakers and I can almost bet that nobody in this forum will have top firing speakers. I know Film Mixer commented on one of my post and he said that he has heard the top firing speakers and it sounds good. I don't know what sounds good to him, but I am still having a hard time beliving that a speaker firing atop a floor stander will give incredible ceiling effect. Unless they are mounted on a 215, I just don't see it. As I said I will not knock it till I try it. I guess what I am getting at is I am looking at more pro versions of Atmos which I believe is still a year or more away.
They should not be placed higher than half wall height according to Dolby :

"For the best sound, place your speakers at or slightly above the height of your ears when
you’re seated. Avoid placing the Dolby Atmos enabled speakers higher than one-half the
height of your wall."

Source : Dolby Atmos® for the Home Theater
August 2014

215's are not small from what I can see.

Last edited by staaled; 08-14-2014 at 09:58 AM. Reason: Spelling
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post #22103 of 26446 Old 08-14-2014, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post
Unless the speaker is broken it is certainly the room. My 212HT L&R measured at the MLP with no subs and no eq give a huge increase starting at 150hz. The center has a dip around 80 but the huge jump in midbass (I hate that non descript term) from 150hz down to about 90hz for all three. I almost have to laugh when I keep reading about this midbass issue for the 212. In pure output down to 80 hz the 212HT has more than the 215! Lower than that yes the 215 takes over. If matched with subs designed to cross between 80-100hz I don't see the issue. No matter how we define midbass I think we would agree it is in the modal region, so Archea is likely correct about the room.


In my system the output from 20hz-150hz is over 130dB at the MLP which is 13 ft from the LCR's!.


Here is the L&R 212HT no subs no eq. The the last FR is with the OS's integrated and turned down for movie (more flat). Every room will be different.
Agree.
Very likely 1/4 wavelength destructive interference from the front wall.
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post #22104 of 26446 Old 08-14-2014, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by smbsocal View Post
The JTR speakers are voiced flat which is Jeff's preference but it is counter to what most people find appealing. To counter this you just need to boost the mid-bass up with an EQ to get the sound you want. The speakers are more than capable enough to take the boost you give them and no suffer and ill consequences. Now the only thing that boosting cannot do is overcome room issues. The only way to overcome these are to either move the speaker placement or modify the room. You mentioned a 100Hz hole which you couldn't EQ out which would be due to a room / speaker placement issue. http://peavey.com/support/technotes/...ncellation.cfm

I have had my T12s for a couple years now and recently EQ'd them which made the mid-bass and even bass from them really stand out. The bass was enough to where I thought the subs kicked on in addition to the L / R speakers.

Added in Edit: You mentioned that the speakers had the same FR in two rooms. If this is the case I would say possibly a faulty speaker. One sure fire way to test, but a pain, would be to test the FR out in an open field.
OK. I don't want to say too much more until I have some measurements to back up what I am saying. I am not trying to be negative on JTR speakers but when I read so much positive of the S8, I want to ensure people reading have another perspective, which is that I don't care for it as a "speaker" as much as the other JTR offerings. Not that it isn't worth $1000 but it isn't something I recommend to anyone for LCR duty, UNLESS THEY GET TO HEAR IT FOR THEMSELVES FIRST.

So here are some facts and I'll even throw in a measurement. I'll take more measurements and share later this weekend to backup what my ears are telling me.
  • FACT: The S8s do not sound similar to the Noesis. I'll post a graph this weekend showing that.
  • OPINION: I am not a huge fan of the S8s for main duty. But for surrounds, they are staying in my room and will likely get more if I ever go the Atmos route in the future.
  • FACT: THIS SURPRISED ME. The 212 uses the same coax compression driver as the 215 but the upper range sounds different. The horn construction itself is different but the coax compression driver is the same. Carp noted a different sonic signature between his 215s and 212 center. Take a look at the measurement below from the center of Coach's room. (Measurement coming in next post as I have to restart my computer as REW isn't loading correctly.)
  • OPINION: Out of the box I like the upper range of the 212 much better than the 215. The 215 didn't sound that good to me (somewhat veiled) until it was professionally calibrated, then it became special. The 212s sounded really good to me right out of the box and better with EQing. I gave a rough first EQ of Coach's room so I heard all 3 of his front 215RT/RM and what I heard wasn't room placement or a single speaker issue.
  • FACT: The 215 and Cat12s have very strong midbass and I know they can overcome room issues.
  • OPINION: The 212s don't have enough midbass to overcome major room nodes like I might be experiencing. I have more options such as adding amplification but they are already powered by 225w on an outboard amp. I can also bring up my front LMS-5400s to cover up to 140-150 Hz. I have more I can do but I don't have time to futz with my speakers right now and really wish I didn't have to.
  • OPINION: I find it interesting dlbeck included midbass modules with his 212s from the beginning. He likely wouldn't have needed those with the 215RM or Cat12s.

I like your idea of testing my 212s in an open field. I might do that so I can truly figure out what is going on an show everyone what I am hearing.
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post #22105 of 26446 Old 08-14-2014, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post
All points well taken. They sound like beasts for sure! Your explanation gets me more excited to seek them out for a demo, that's for sure.

Thanks for the thorough response.

Would be very cool to get some measurements of the M2's in the room you are demoing them in!
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I can't think of a single reason NOT to get measurements.
Take your rig!!!! That is exactly what I want to see. I am sure they wouldn't mind too. Sounds like a really "live" room and perhaps that is exactly what you prefer, some people do! I like dead as a door nail, but that is just another part of preference land.
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post #22106 of 26446 Old 08-14-2014, 09:28 AM
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Here is my initial, pre-DSP measurements of the 212HT-LP, Cat12, and 215RM at the front center of Coach's room.

NOTE: I have a feeling there was a crossover in the signal chain on the 212 that caused it to drop like that but couldn't find it in the time allotted at Coach's.




And here are some old measurements I took of my sealed 212s in my room. You can see that there is a big drop in midbass on the left and right. Sorry my room is my room; there isn't much I can do but make my speakers work in the room, I don't have the luxury of trying them in multiple positions or pulling them more than 6" out from the wall. Like I said, I can work on them more but don't really have time right now.

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post #22107 of 26446 Old 08-14-2014, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
[*]FACT: The 215 and Cat12s have very strong midbass and I know they can overcome room issues.
More output doesn't overcome room issues.
Quote:
[*]OPINION: I find it interesting dlbeck included midbass modules with his 212s from the beginning. He likely wouldn't have needed those with the 215RM or Cat12s.
There were several original purposes for the midbass modules (which are really subs that extend down to 10 Hz): overcome room issues, provide fullrange channel capability, and match subwoofer headroom to speaker headroom. The crossover used at dlbeck's open house was 80 Hz and is still being used as far as I know. Nobody complained about a lack of midbass.
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post #22108 of 26446 Old 08-14-2014, 09:58 AM
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ok so crossover maybe on the lp, but the other two were full range in this measurement? That looks impossible to me.

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post #22109 of 26446 Old 08-14-2014, 10:27 AM
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How does everyone define midbass here? I hope it's the same range for all but what is it? It seems to me that the room has an impact on this range because if I look at the 2 sets of graphs (and I hope I'm reading correctly) the 212LP's start to drop off at 2 different points in Coach's room vs Dgage's....am I reading the graphs correctly? In Coach's room it seems the 212 starts to drop at slightly above 100 but in Dgage's room it looks like there's an increase 100. But there is a significant drop at 200 for Dgage's FR that doesn't exist for the other 2....that has to be room related.


If I am reading these charts and the room has an impact on mid bass....how can adding a MBM help?




Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Here is my initial, pre-DSP measurements of the 212HT-LP, Cat12, and 215RM at the front center of Coach's room.

NOTE: I have a feeling there was a crossover in the signal chain on the 212 that caused it to drop like that but couldn't find it in the time allotted at Coach's.




And here are some old measurements I took of my sealed 212s in my room. You can see that there is a big drop in midbass on the left and right. Sorry my room is my room; there isn't much I can do but make my speakers work in the room, I don't have the luxury of trying them in multiple positions or pulling them more than 6" out from the wall. Like I said, I can work on them more but don't really have time right now.


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post #22110 of 26446 Old 08-14-2014, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by staaled View Post
They should not be placed higher than half wall height according to Dolby :

"For the best sound, place your speakers at or slightly above the height of your ears when
you’re seated. Avoid placing the Dolby Atmos enabled speakers higher than one-half the
height of your wall."

Source : Dolby Atmos® for the Home Theater
August 2014

215's are not small from what I can see.
I was just joking there as top mounted speakers on top of the 215's would basically be on the ceiling.

IMO if you going to do Atoms, then the best way is to do it right. So far it just seems a little gimmicky to me. Certainly this is all just skepticism by me, I have never heard it so really I cannot form an opinion till them. I just don't understand how you mount speakers on top of your mains which will be in the front of the room and now you magically have ceiling surround I would think to have it sound right would be to mount ceiling speakers or in wall ceiling speakers to get the real effect. Just writing this is making me think how expensive this will be and with my upgradititus, I am trying to pretend it will not exist.
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