Official JTR speaker thread - Page 738 - AVS Forum
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post #22111 of 23527 Old 08-14-2014, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by staaled View Post
They should not be placed higher than half wall height according to Dolby :

"For the best sound, place your speakers at or slightly above the height of your ears when
you’re seated. Avoid placing the Dolby Atmos enabled speakers higher than one-half the
height of your wall."

Source : Dolby Atmos® for the Home Theater
August 2014

215's are not small from what I can see.
I was just joking there as top mounted speakers on top of the 215's would basically be on the ceiling.

IMO if you going to do Atoms, then the best way is to do it right. So far it just seems a little gimmicky to me. Certainly this is all just skepticism by me, I have never heard it so really I cannot form an opinion till them. I just don't understand how you mount speakers on top of your mains which will be in the front of the room and now you magically have ceiling surround I would think to have it sound right would be to mount ceiling speakers or in wall ceiling speakers to get the real effect. Just writing this is making me think how expensive this will be and with my upgradititus, I am trying to pretend it will not exist.

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post #22112 of 23527 Old 08-14-2014, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
I was just joking there as top mounted speakers on top of the 215's would basically be on the ceiling.

IMO if you going to do Atoms, then the best way is to do it right. So far it just seems a little gimmicky to me. Certainly this is all just skepticism by me, I have never heard it so really I cannot form an opinion till them. I just don't understand how you mount speakers on top of your mains which will be in the front of the room and now you magically have ceiling surround I would think to have it sound right would be to mount ceiling speakers or in wall ceiling speakers to get the real effect. Just writing this is making me think how expensive this will be and with my upgradititus, I am trying to pretend it will not exist.
While I am far from an Atmos expert, I think the concept is that the front speakers that are "atmos" fire up put also into the room (so not straight up at the ceiling but at an angle so it aligns with perhaps halfway point between the front speaker and seating position...maybe something like 45 degrees up).


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post #22113 of 23527 Old 08-14-2014, 10:05 AM
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How does everyone define midbass here? I hope it's the same range for all but what is it? It seems to me that the room has an impact on this range because if I look at the 2 sets of graphs (and I hope I'm reading correctly) the 212LP's start to drop off at 2 different points in Coach's room vs Dgage's....am I reading the graphs correctly? In Coach's room it seems the 212 starts to drop at slightly above 100 but in Dgage's room it looks like there's an increase 100. But there is a significant drop at 200 for Dgage's FR that doesn't exist for the other 2....that has to be room related.


If I am reading these charts and the room has an impact on mid bass....how can adding a MBM help?
the mbm's can have a huge impact especially if location with the drivers is a contributing factor which it almost always is. However if the room mode is severe enough and you don't overcome that with placment or bass trapping or delay then no amount of power and driver displacement will solve the probelm. If the the wave is being perfectly cancelled out by itself, a higher amplitude wave will still cancel itself. In truth they are not ususally perfectly cancelled out so output can help. But let's fix the real time domain problem.

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post #22114 of 23527 Old 08-14-2014, 10:11 AM
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You got it right. The top speakers utilize the ceiling reflection to make them appear as they are coming from above, but IMO, this would seemingly cause all kinds of timing issues. Guess it is really too early to tell.

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post #22115 of 23527 Old 08-14-2014, 10:11 AM
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My guess is that most of the benefits come from making the ceiling an active
part of the room/room acoustics.
Direct sound from ceiling speakers or directed reflections from Atmos capable speakers will dominate the normal ceiling reflections.
Ceiling reflections are perceived mostly in an amplitude sense.

Human hearing is not that capable sensing direction in the vertical plane, unless
one is in horizontal position.
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post #22116 of 23527 Old 08-14-2014, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
While I am far from an Atmos expert, I think the concept is that the front speakers that are "atoms" fire up put also into the room (so not straight up at the ceiling but at an angle so it aligns with perhaps halfway point between the front speaker and seating position…maybe something like 45 degrees up).
I am no expert on the subject either, I have stated every time I have made a statement that it is all a guess to me. But from what I am reading is that top firing speakers are for the people that are not going to do ceiling speakers. For the dedicated enthusiast, most will do something like a 7.2.4 or guys around here 7.8.4 there is also 9.2.2 or 12.4.4. I mean any variation can work. Now for those not using ceiling speakers and sticking with the 5.1 or 7.1 surround sound and want Atmos effect with out tearing up the house, top firing speakers will come into play. Correct me if I am wrong, but this is what I have been reading and it has not been much. There is a Dolby Atmos white paper thread floating around AVS somewhere that Scott Wilkinson posted if anyone has not seen it yet.

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post #22117 of 23527 Old 08-14-2014, 03:53 PM
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I am looking at switching routes slightly and going from stands for my Noesis 228HT to placing them on top of my subs. Any suggestions on the best thing to use to isolate them so there isn't undesired movement/scratching?

• Panasonic TC-P55ST30
• Pioneer SC-1323-K
• Emotiva XPA-2
• JTR Noesis 228HT LCR
• CHT 18.1
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post #22118 of 23527 Old 08-14-2014, 04:13 PM
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I have my 228s on top of my Submersives. I am sure it is not ideal but you do what you have to.
My subs are sealed with dual opposing drives so they don't vibrate at all. I just use small stick on felt pads to reduce any marking on the finish. If you have single driver subs they probably really shake at times.
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post #22119 of 23527 Old 08-14-2014, 04:30 PM
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Can the experts here comment on which would be a better system; Dedicated room for movies and music, don't have any soundproofing. I believe price range is pretty much the same for both brands for the speakers mentioned below.

LCR: JTR 228HT or Procella P6

Surrounds: JTR Slanted 8HT or Procella P5

Subs: Two (should not be more than $3500 for both), haven't decided on the brand.

Are they both good or is one clearly a winner over the other? My budget doesn't allow me to go any higher on either brand. Thoughts on who is the clear winner. Thx
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post #22120 of 23527 Old 08-14-2014, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by smuggymba View Post
Can the experts here comment on which would be a better system; Dedicated room for movies and music, don't have any soundproofing. I believe price range is pretty much the same for both brands for the speakers mentioned below.

LCR: JTR 228HT or Procella P6

Surrounds: JTR Slanted 8HT or Procella P5

Subs: Two (should not be more than $3500 for both), haven't decided on the brand.

Are they both good or is one clearly a winner over the other? My budget doesn't allow me to go any higher on either brand. Thoughts on who is the clear winner. Thx
I remember we talked awhile ago in the dedicated theater thread and I would certainly suggest the 228's all day over the procellas. Not to mention that the 228's are very efficient and won't take more than a good AVR to power them. The same with the slanted 8's as I have 4 of them and love em. Not to mention that you will get a better buy from the JTR's. The 228's are an excellent HT speaker.

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post #22121 of 23527 Old 08-14-2014, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
I remember we talked awhile ago in the dedicated theater thread and I would certainly suggest the 228's all day over the procellas. Not to mention that the 228's are very efficient and won't take more than a good AVR to power them. The same with the slanted 8's as I have 4 of them and love em. Not to mention that you will get a better buy from the JTR's. The 228's are an excellent HT speaker.
++1
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post #22122 of 23527 Old 08-14-2014, 04:53 PM
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I remember we talked awhile ago in the dedicated theater thread and I would certainly suggest the 228's all day over the procellas. Not to mention that the 228's are very efficient and won't take more than a good AVR to power them. The same with the slanted 8's as I have 4 of them and love em. Not to mention that you will get a better buy from the JTR's. The 228's are an excellent HT speaker.
Thanks Reefdvr27 and jbrown15.

I understand that this is a JTR enthusiast thread and ppl love their JTR's. I would like to understand what parameters make JTR better than Procella (228 and 8HT VS P5/P6). I was sold on JTR's till someone told me Procella is much better...so trying to make sense of it.

Thanks as always.
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post #22123 of 23527 Old 08-14-2014, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
I remember we talked awhile ago in the dedicated theater thread and I would certainly suggest the 228's all day over the procellas. Not to mention that the 228's are very efficient and won't take more than a good AVR to power them. The same with the slanted 8's as I have 4 of them and love em. Not to mention that you will get a better buy from the JTR's. The 228's are an excellent HT speaker.
+2, and for the subs, if you want to stay all JTR you'd be hard pressed to find a better pair than a set of Passive Caps.. If you're willing to budge just a few hundred to include a "cheap" pro amp. Good luck finding something else that will keep up with those 228's for the price!
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post #22124 of 23527 Old 08-14-2014, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by smuggymba View Post
Thanks Reefdvr27 and jbrown15.

I understand that this is a JTR enthusiast thread and ppl love their JTR's. I would like to understand what parameters make JTR better than Procella (228 and 8HT VS P5/P6). I was sold on JTR's till someone told me Procella is much better...so trying to make sense of it.

Thanks as always.

Hopefully Archaea will weigh as I believe he's heard some of the Procella speakers so he has first hand experience with them.
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post #22125 of 23527 Old 08-14-2014, 05:23 PM
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Hopefully Archaea will weigh as I believe he's heard some of the Procella speakers so he has first hand experience with them.
Thanks jbrown15. will wait for Archea to respond and send him PM also to remind.

One question for you. I see that you have QS8 surrounds; any reason you didn't go for Slanted 8HT's from JTR? Same on the sub.
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post #22126 of 23527 Old 08-14-2014, 05:37 PM
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Thanks jbrown15. will wait for Archea to respond and send him PM also to remind.

One question for you. I see that you have QS8 surrounds; any reason you didn't go for Slanted 8HT's from JTR? Same on the sub.

Yeah, because my wife would kill me if I spent 4 grand on surround speakers!....lol
If you take a look at my build thread for my subs it'll give you a idea of what I built. It only cost me 3 grand to build my entire sub setup and I have the equivalent output of 5 Cap 2400 subs. Buying 5 Cap 2400's would cost almost 10 grand.
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post #22127 of 23527 Old 08-14-2014, 05:39 PM
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Yeah, because my wife would kill me if I spent 4 grand on surround speakers!....lol
If you take a look at my build thread for my subs it'll give you a idea of what I built. It only cost me 3 grand to build my entire sub setup and I have the equivalent output of 5 Cap 2400 subs. Buying 5 Cap 2400's would cost almost 10 grand.
You have a great sub build. I think it should inspire many. A wall of bass!!

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post #22128 of 23527 Old 08-14-2014, 05:46 PM
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You have a great sub build. I think it should inspire many. A wall of bass!!
Wow, thank you for the compliment! Yeah I'm extremely happy with how things turned out.
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post #22129 of 23527 Old 08-14-2014, 05:49 PM
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Yeah, because my wife would kill me if I spent 4 grand on surround speakers!....lol
If you take a look at my build thread for my subs it'll give you a idea of what I built. It only cost me 3 grand to build my entire sub setup and I have the equivalent output of 5 Cap 2400 subs. Buying 5 Cap 2400's would cost almost 10 grand.
My wife is planning on killing me too after I told her that speakers cost 10K (and I wasn't even planning on a second sub). She said everyone buys Bose from costco and they are so happy , so why do you need 10K speakers...lol

I could DIY on the subs to save money but I'm worried if I will just spend money for not so good output. If Subs are that easy to make why do people spend 3K to buy just one
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Wow, thank you for the compliment! Yeah I'm extremely happy with how things turned out.
you are very welcome, it looks great and must sound incredible. For what ever its worth I have 3 OS's and love them, but your set up still makes me think... how about 4 to 8 of those puppies in my room? Great stuff, the only problem with this thread is more of us are not closer geographically.
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post #22131 of 23527 Old 08-14-2014, 05:56 PM
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My wife is planning on killing me too after I told her that speakers cost 10K (and I wasn't even planning on a second sub). She said everyone buys Bose from costco and they are so happy , so why do you need 10K speakers...lol

I could DIY on the subs to save money but I'm worried if I will just spend money for not so good output. If Subs are that easy to make why do people spend 3K to buy just one
Everybody is happy with Bose till they hear a full JTR set up. You should see if there is anybody near by that would be willing to give you a demo.

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post #22132 of 23527 Old 08-14-2014, 06:00 PM
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Thanks Reefdvr27 and jbrown15.

I understand that this is a JTR enthusiast thread and ppl love their JTR's. I would like to understand what parameters make JTR better than Procella (228 and 8HT VS P5/P6). I was sold on JTR's till someone told me Procella is much better...so trying to make sense of it.

Thanks as always.
I've heard the P8's in a 7 x p8 with the 10 in subs on the bottom of the front 3, at least I think they were 10's, the owner was explaining it to me but I was too busy checking everything out lol. They sounded great. It was a theater build for a friend of my wife.

I can't say I was wowed at any point though. I know he had it calibrated by a pro, as they built the room etc. Keep in mind I have no idea what any settings were as he didn't know either.
I left the room thinking it was nice to see someone with a nice setup but thats as far as it went. It was clear and no sign of any distortion.

Take opinions of speakers with a grain of salt, you simply cant go by what anyone says on some forum to what sounds better or worse.
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post #22133 of 23527 Old 08-14-2014, 06:02 PM
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My wife is planning on killing me too after I told her that speakers cost 10K (and I wasn't even planning on a second sub). She said everyone buys Bose from costco and they are so happy , so why do you need 10K speakers...lol

I could DIY on the subs to save money but I'm worried if I will just spend money for not so good output. If Subs are that easy to make why do people spend 3K to buy just one
Some people just can't be bothered to build their own subs. If you go into the subwoofer forum section and take a look at the ULF score thread you'll notice one common theme. Most of the forum members that have just insane amounts of bass level usually go DIY route.


If you're willing to build your own subs you'll always have way better bass output to dollar ratio. Like I say one Cap 2400 from JTR costs $2599 plus shipping. I spent $1460 on four UXL-18 drivers, $800 for two inuke 6000DSP amp's maybe $100 on XLR to RCA cables speakon cables and some speaker connector plates, and about $500-$600 for wood, glue, screws and brad nails.


So for a little more then the cost of a single Cap 2400 I was able to build four subs with the same output of five Cap 2400's, kind of hard to argue with that if you're willing to do the work and are confident enough in yourself to learn a little and build them.
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post #22134 of 23527 Old 08-14-2014, 06:03 PM
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Everybody is happy with Bose till they hear a full JTR set up. You should see if there is anybody near by that would be willing to give you a demo.
I sold many a Bose system in the late 90's/early 2000's when I was with Circuit City.

The margins in that were insane. I remember the most expensive Lifestyle system we sold was $2999 and our employee cost, direct from Bose, was only $999 with shipping. Still wasn't cheap enough for me buy.

I did take full advantage of the Polk direct programs. My first serious, non HTIB, surround system was the Polk 5000 system.... That is what started it all.
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post #22135 of 23527 Old 08-14-2014, 06:06 PM
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I could DIY on the subs to save money but I'm worried if I will just spend money for not so good output. If Subs are that easy to make why do people spend 3K to buy just one
The simple answer is they are chicken to try something new lol. Store/ID subs are bound by a few things. Size/weight/price. DIY'ers don't have those restrictions. We don't have to ship anything, make unique designs that fit into what were are doing and can use the highest possible quality of drivers/materials possible.

And I'm extra lucky in that I have a world class sub designer/builder 15 mins away from my house!

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #22136 of 23527 Old 08-14-2014, 06:07 PM
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you are very welcome, it looks great and must sound incredible. For what ever its worth I have 3 OS's and love them, but your set up still makes me think... how about 4 to 8 of those puppies in my room? Great stuff, the only problem with this thread is more of us are not closer geographically.

Before I actually decided to go DIY and build my subs I was VERY close to buying a OS LFU, and was actually ready to drop the cash on one even though it would have cost me close to 4 grand after exchange rate because I'm in Canada, shipping and taxes. But the more I read about building my own subs and talking with a few forum members, the more I realize that was the route for me.


If you built eight subs like mine; that would literally be insane. Four up front and four out back would be outright scary
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post #22137 of 23527 Old 08-14-2014, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post
I sold many a Bose system in the late 90's/early 2000's when I was with Circuit City.

The margins in that were insane. I remember the most expensive Lifestyle system we sold was $2999 and our employee cost, direct from Bose, was only $999 with shipping. Still wasn't cheap enough for me buy.

I did take full advantage of the Polk direct programs. My first serious, non HTIB, surround system was the Polk 5000 system.... That is what started it all.
Is Circuit City still around. In my region Best Buy put them to rest.

Pre-Pro: Emotiva XMC-1, DSP: Mini DSP 2x4 balanced
Amplifier: Sunfire TGA7400, Lab Gruppen FP10000Q
Speakers: JTR Noesis 212HT (LCR), JTR Slant 8's (surrounds), 3 Orbit Shifter LFU's
Sources: PS3, HTPC, Dish Network
Projector: Epson 8350
Screen: Seymour XD AT 138" diagonal 16:9
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post #22138 of 23527 Old 08-14-2014, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post
Is Circuit City still around. In my region Best Buy put them to rest.
Circuit City went out of business several years ago and Best Buy isn't far behind.


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post #22139 of 23527 Old 08-14-2014, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post
Is Circuit City still around. In my region Best Buy put them to rest.
I left in 2001 right after they completely changed their compensation plans....which ultimately the end for them.

Pretty sure they went out of business several years ago.....
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post #22140 of 23527 Old 08-14-2014, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Before I actually decided to go DIY and build my subs I was VERY close to buying a OS LFU, and was actually ready to drop the cash on one even though it would have cost me close to 4 grand after exchange rate because I'm in Canada, shipping and taxes. But the more I read about building my own subs and talking with a few forum members, the more I realize that was the route for me.


If you built eight subs like mine; that would literally be insane. Four up front and four out back would be outright scary
Can a house made of studs and drywall handle 8 subs on the second floor? When my kid runs on the second floor I can hear them. What kind of damage can 8 subs with that kind of power do?
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