Official JTR speaker thread - Page 741 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!



Forum Jump: 
 6952Likes
Reply
Thread Tools
post #22201 of 35315 Old 08-18-2014, 05:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jlpowell84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Eugene, OR
Posts: 6,292
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1488 Post(s)
Liked: 661
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post
Screen manufacturers have distance recommendations for the spacing between the speakers and screen material.
Jbrown, what is it for the Falcon material? Brandon, how far is your spandex from yours? Not sure if that Danley is different from having a direct radiating speaker/drivers closer

edit...read the next page lol...

FTW21 Ported Build
Volt 10 build
I miss Giants baseball!
jlpowell84 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #22202 of 35315 Old 08-18-2014, 05:51 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jbrown15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 8,556
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2518 Post(s)
Liked: 1982
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
Jbrown, what is it for the Falcon material? Brandon, how far is your spandex from yours? Not sure if that Danley is different from having a direct radiating speaker/drivers closer

edit...read the next page lol...
It doesn't say exactly how close you can have the speakers to the Falcon screen material on the website but I mentioned when talking with Rich when I first bought my screen that you could easily get away with it only an inch away.
jbrown15 is offline  
post #22203 of 35315 Old 08-18-2014, 06:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Mark Seaton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 6,474
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 421 Post(s)
Liked: 1038
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
lol Mark, speculation is the best part of this hobby! hahaha Although it is a JTR thread, Danley and Seaton do get discussed quite a bit since they are all the kinds of designs we all like, so they will always be compared.

is there a name for the new sub? any other details? Are the the UM18's? or are they spec'd to your new design?
Output should be pretty darn good, guessing 1.5 times of a Cap or so if they are UM18's..... that is unless you tell us otherwise
The UM18 is a very well behaved driver based on the testing we've had time to do thus far in this and a few other test boxes. dlbeck popped in while we were testing these drivers in the never produced Terraform XL cabinets. These work very well at a great value in this very low tuned cabinet. I know many want to just look at say "oh, a big slot ported cabinet..." but if you think you can build and finish these precision cut cabinets with designed bracing using 3" radius corners at both ends of the port and for the internal bend for $400 each, I'll order 24 now :

Many have seen this picture from more than 4 years ago of the design we never released:

This image shows 2 slightly shorter and wider units I had also built up:


Since the parts that will work best in my bandpass design need greater internal spacing, I looked for an 18" to suitably drive the cabinet of which I have 8 similar units on hand. The UM18 is quieter in operation (noise from motion), a good deal of linear/mechanical travel, has less of an inductive peak/roll-off, and is lower distortion than many other available options, while finally being readily available at an attractive price. Yes, I prefer to make further optimizations for specific product design that I'll be producing for many years, but this is a different situation and this allows using a driver that I suspect will be available for quite a while.

You were right that if I produced/stocked this design building new cabinets, using our 4kW DSP optimized amp and accounting for the logistics involved with such a large, heavy product, it would sell for around $4k depending on cabinet costs and cosmetics. Consider the pair of UM18s make up about $800 of that. I need the space back in my warehouse these 8 behemoths are taking up, so they will sell for about 75% of that. How many ported subs can you purchase and have delivered in 1 week that are tuned to 11Hz? Here are some better lit pictures showing what it looks like, although the grill will be replaced by a 1.5" thick vs. the 3/4" thick frame shown.

Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood..." Daniel H. Burnham
Mark Seaton is online now  
post #22204 of 35315 Old 08-18-2014, 06:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,924
Mentioned: 332 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1998 Post(s)
Liked: 1475
That's so bad a$$ Mark. If I needed subs (haha, and had money left) I'd be all over this.
carp is online now  
post #22205 of 35315 Old 08-18-2014, 06:16 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jbrown15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 8,556
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2518 Post(s)
Liked: 1982
That is one awesome looking ported sub Mark, pretty bad A$$!!!


Sorry Mark are you saying that a pair of the subs with two UM18-22's per sub make up $800? So four drivers?

Last edited by jbrown15; 08-18-2014 at 06:26 PM.
jbrown15 is offline  
post #22206 of 35315 Old 08-18-2014, 06:17 PM
Member
 
emr25's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 195
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 22
What is everyones preferred method of measurement (both device and software)? I use Mac OS X at home, but I have Windows 7 installed via Boot Camp on one of my Macbook Pros.

I think capable measurement software is the next logical step in my room progression. With (3) 228HTs, (2) DIY Sound Group Slanted V10s, and (1) Cap S2, I am set for the foreseeable future in regards to audio output. The next steps would be measuring my in-room response and deciding what the best step in taming and optimizing would be.

Room treatments are one option, but I am also interested in a device such as the nanoAVR or something similar. Is it typically better to start with room treatment or EQ first?

Thanks for the input, I have been enjoying my first dedicated media room and still have a smile on my face during movies. Olympus Has Fallen at reference (0 dB MV) while my wife was out of town last weekend was my best audio experience in the room yet! Keep in mind this is a 12' x 10' x 8' spare bedroom (~1,000 ft^3), so I am definitely in the overkill for my space category.

Video - Panasonic VT50 55" | Panasonic BDT320
AVR - Denon X4000 | Sherbourn PA 7-350
Speakers - JTR Noesis 228HT | DIY Sound Group Volt V10 | JTR Captivator S2
emr25 is offline  
post #22207 of 35315 Old 08-18-2014, 06:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
NWCgrad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Frederick, MD
Posts: 2,837
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 993 Post(s)
Liked: 900
Holy crap that is an awesome looking sub! !! I bet 8 of them would mate well with carps JTR 215's. Would be almOst enough for popalock.
carp likes this.

___________________________________________
Two ears and a brain comprise a powerful acoustical analysis tool, able to extract enormous resolution, detail, and pleasure from circumstances that, when subject to mere technical measurements, seem to be disastrous. Floyd Toole
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-gen...sement-ht.html[/B]
NWCgrad is online now  
post #22208 of 35315 Old 08-18-2014, 07:06 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dlbeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 1,729
Mentioned: 75 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 432 Post(s)
Liked: 477
Thanks for posting much better pictures Mark. I thought this was a JTR thread
RMK! likes this.
dlbeck is online now  
post #22209 of 35315 Old 08-18-2014, 08:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
N8DOGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 6,878
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 823 Post(s)
Liked: 884
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
The UM18 is a very well behaved driver based on the testing we've had time to do thus far in this and a few other test boxes. dlbeck popped in while we were testing these drivers in the never produced Terraform XL cabinets. These work very well at a great value in this very low tuned cabinet. I know many want to just look at say "oh, a big slot ported cabinet..." but if you think you can build and finish these precision cut cabinets with designed bracing using 3" radius corners at both ends of the port and for the internal bend for $400 each, I'll order 24 now :

Many have seen this picture from more than 4 years ago of the design we never released:

This image shows 2 slightly shorter and wider units I had also built up:


Since the parts that will work best in my bandpass design need greater internal spacing, I looked for an 18" to suitably drive the cabinet of which I have 8 similar units on hand. The UM18 is quieter in operation (noise from motion), a good deal of linear/mechanical travel, has less of an inductive peak/roll-off, and is lower distortion than many other available options, while finally being readily available at an attractive price. Yes, I prefer to make further optimizations for specific product design that I'll be producing for many years, but this is a different situation and this allows using a driver that I suspect will be available for quite a while.

You were right that if I produced/stocked this design building new cabinets, using our 4kW DSP optimized amp and accounting for the logistics involved with such a large, heavy product, it would sell for around $4k depending on cabinet costs and cosmetics. Consider the pair of UM18s make up about $800 of that. I need the space back in my warehouse these 8 behemoths are taking up, so they will sell for about 75% of that. How many ported subs can you purchase and have delivered in 1 week that are tuned to 11Hz? Here are some better lit pictures showing what it looks like, although the grill will be replaced by a 1.5" thick vs. the 3/4" thick frame shown.
Well, just let me get my jigsaw, some old wood flooring and some ducktape, I'll show you what quality cab looks like!

I've been curious why you decided not to go ahead with the Terraform's? I think they could sell well enough at 4K, especially with the nice cabs and awesome amps. I always though it was a good looking design and I'd bet performs pretty damn good.... Or have you decided to go with a dual 18" design similar to your Submersive? That would seem to be a good option.

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

N8DOGG is offline  
post #22210 of 35315 Old 08-18-2014, 08:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
rhed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,980
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 574 Post(s)
Liked: 402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
The UM18 is a very well behaved driver based on the testing we've had time to do thus far in this and a few other test boxes. dlbeck popped in while we were testing these drivers in the never produced Terraform XL cabinets. These work very well at a great value in this very low tuned cabinet. I know many want to just look at say "oh, a big slot ported cabinet..." but if you think you can build and finish these precision cut cabinets with designed bracing using 3" radius corners at both ends of the port and for the internal bend for $400 each, I'll order 24 now :

Many have seen this picture from more than 4 years ago of the design we never released:

This image shows 2 slightly shorter and wider units I had also built up:


Since the parts that will work best in my bandpass design need greater internal spacing, I looked for an 18" to suitably drive the cabinet of which I have 8 similar units on hand. The UM18 is quieter in operation (noise from motion), a good deal of linear/mechanical travel, has less of an inductive peak/roll-off, and is lower distortion than many other available options, while finally being readily available at an attractive price. Yes, I prefer to make further optimizations for specific product design that I'll be producing for many years, but this is a different situation and this allows using a driver that I suspect will be available for quite a while.

You were right that if I produced/stocked this design building new cabinets, using our 4kW DSP optimized amp and accounting for the logistics involved with such a large, heavy product, it would sell for around $4k depending on cabinet costs and cosmetics. Consider the pair of UM18s make up about $800 of that. I need the space back in my warehouse these 8 behemoths are taking up, so they will sell for about 75% of that. How many ported subs can you purchase and have delivered in 1 week that are tuned to 11Hz? Here are some better lit pictures showing what it looks like, although the grill will be replaced by a 1.5" thick vs. the 3/4" thick frame shown.

This is could be a game changer.. Damn! Nice subs Mark..
rhed is online now  
post #22211 of 35315 Old 08-18-2014, 08:05 PM
AVS Special Member
 
N8DOGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 6,878
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 823 Post(s)
Liked: 884
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
That is one awesome looking ported sub Mark, pretty bad A$$!!!


Sorry Mark are you saying that a pair of the subs with two UM18-22's per sub make up $800? So four drivers?
Oh ya, I didn't notice that... 2 more inside? I wonder how these would work with some UXLs?

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

N8DOGG is offline  
post #22212 of 35315 Old 08-18-2014, 09:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jlpowell84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Eugene, OR
Posts: 6,292
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1488 Post(s)
Liked: 661
I have asked this before but unable to grasp the concept yet...My "pre-apolgy" for the nube-like understanding of this...So I have been under he impression the point of Audyssey or other auto calibration systems, or even manually, is to get all speakers/subs calibrated on the same level (baseline before the usually LFE bump up) and also in respect to "reference." I read once an AVS member saying room size doesn't meter because Audyssey will set your system to be able to play reference in your "specific room." So why then do I watch movies at -16 average? It is not an issue of being 16db quieter than what some of you listen at. I guarantee you I brush up to the "uncomfortable" loud and then back off 2-3db for a enjoyment of the movie or music. I see (emr25) watched a movie at reference in his 12x10 room. Just curious why the drastic differences of some people MV. Now I watched the newest Transformers movie in the local theater a month ago. It was loud, uncomfortably loud. Several times I cringed and thought it needed a 6db drop to be at the line I brush up too. Anyway, looking for a scientific, logical explanation

FTW21 Ported Build
Volt 10 build
I miss Giants baseball!
jlpowell84 is offline  
post #22213 of 35315 Old 08-18-2014, 09:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jlpowell84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Eugene, OR
Posts: 6,292
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1488 Post(s)
Liked: 661
Another topic. JTR specific. I have been thinking about changing out my Open DRC-AN unit for a Nanoavr. I would have the same current LFE channel capabilities but also gain speaker EQ manipulation as well. I have thought about trying to do some "mid-bass" boost like a fellow JTR-ite did with his T12's. My Triple8's (all three) have the Dayton drivers Jeff used to use. I mention because I believe they have more Xmax than the newer Eminence drivers. Jeff said awhile back no reason to switch them out for Eminence as they work just fine. Now the Xmax may not matter to mid bass frequencies, I don't claim to be that speaker learned So my main question is lets say I boost the mid-bass like 4-5db. Do I need some external amplification rather than relying on my Denon 4520?

FTW21 Ported Build
Volt 10 build
I miss Giants baseball!
jlpowell84 is offline  
post #22214 of 35315 Old 08-18-2014, 09:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Archaea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 9,386
Mentioned: 344 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2439 Post(s)
Liked: 2083
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
I have asked this before but unable to grasp the concept yet...My "pre-apolgy" for the nube-like understanding of this...So I have been under he impression the point of Audyssey or other auto calibration systems, or even manually, is to get all speakers/subs calibrated on the same level (baseline before the usually LFE bump up) and also in respect to "reference." I read once an AVS member saying room size doesn't meter because Audyssey will set your system to be able to play reference in your "specific room." So why then do I watch movies at -16 average? It is not an issue of being 16db quieter than what some of you listen at. I guarantee you I brush up to the "uncomfortable" loud and then back off 2-3db for a enjoyment of the movie or music. I see (emr25) watched a movie at reference in his 12x10 room. Just curious why the drastic differences of some people MV. Now I watched the newest Transformers movie in the local theater a month ago. It was loud, uncomfortably loud. Several times I cringed and thought it needed a 6db drop to be at the line I brush up too. Anyway, looking for a scientific, logical explanation
Boiled down:

Reference is 85dB with 20dB of headroom for dynamics. =105dB peaks for speakers. Subs are 85dB with 30 dB of headroom for dynamics. = 115dB for subs.

Room size is immaterial. The AVR adjusts spl level to meet this criteria in any size room as best it can within the available channel level trim range. Assuming capable speakers and amplifier, speakers should hit 105dB dynamic peaks in any size room. That's the point of a standardized reference.

I will not hoard audio gear
I will not hoard audio gear
I will not hoard audio gear
Archaea's FS Thread
Archaea is offline  
post #22215 of 35315 Old 08-18-2014, 10:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jlpowell84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Eugene, OR
Posts: 6,292
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1488 Post(s)
Liked: 661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Boiled down:

Reference is 85dB with 20dB of headroom for dynamics. =105dB peaks for speakers. Subs are 85dB with 30 dB of headroom for dynamics. = 115dB for subs.

Room size is immaterial. The AVR adjusts spl level to meet this criteria in any size room as best it can within the available channel level trim range. Assuming capable speakers and amplifier, speakers should hit 105dB dynamic peaks in any size room. That's the point of a standardized reference.
So then my MV number is irrelevant as long as an SPL meter reads the right numbers right?

FTW21 Ported Build
Volt 10 build
I miss Giants baseball!
jlpowell84 is offline  
post #22216 of 35315 Old 08-18-2014, 10:32 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Mark Seaton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 6,474
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 421 Post(s)
Liked: 1038
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
That is one awesome looking ported sub Mark, pretty bad A$$!!!

Sorry Mark are you saying that a pair of the subs with two UM18-22's per sub make up $800? So four drivers?
No, I was responding to N8DOGG's fun razzing of the cost of parts. My point was that for a company to keep the lights on, provide support, be there for warranty, not loose money on the long term average, and hopefully grow, the pair of UM18-22 drivers that sell to you for $560 have to represent at least $800 of the sale price of a sustainable product. There are 2 (not 4), 18" drivers per cabinet with a large slot port with a 3" radius on each end allowing for the 11Hz tuning of the design with no audible port noise.
Archaea likes this.

Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood..." Daniel H. Burnham
Mark Seaton is online now  
post #22217 of 35315 Old 08-18-2014, 10:36 PM
AVS Special Member
 
N8DOGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 6,878
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 823 Post(s)
Liked: 884
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
Another topic. JTR specific. I have been thinking about changing out my Open DRC-AN unit for a Nanoavr. I would have the same current LFE channel capabilities but also gain speaker EQ manipulation as well. I have thought about trying to do some "mid-bass" boost like a fellow JTR-ite did with his T12's. My Triple8's (all three) have the Dayton drivers Jeff used to use. I mention because I believe they have more Xmax than the newer Eminence drivers. Jeff said awhile back no reason to switch them out for Eminence as they work just fine. Now the Xmax may not matter to mid bass frequencies, I don't claim to be that speaker learned So my main question is lets say I boost the mid-bass like 4-5db. Do I need some external amplification rather than relying on my Denon 4520?

if you sell the opendrc, let me know, I'd likely buy it from you. I could use another one. pm me with a price you have in mind if you do sell it.

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

N8DOGG is offline  
post #22218 of 35315 Old 08-18-2014, 10:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jbrown15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 8,556
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2518 Post(s)
Liked: 1982
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
No, I was responding to N8DOGG's fun razzing of the cost of parts. My point was that for a company to keep the lights on, provide support, be there for warranty, not loose money on the long term average, and hopefully grow, the pair of UM18-22 drivers that sell to you for $560 have to represent at least $800 of the sale price of a sustainable product. There are 2 (not 4), 18" drivers per cabinet with a large slot port with a 3" radius on each end allowing for the 11Hz tuning of the design with no audible port noise.
No I hear you there, I'm in sales and sell industrial automation. You definitely need to make money and be able to stick around for years to be able to continue to sell to your customers!.....lol

I love the stuff you make, just wish I could afford it......lol
jbrown15 is offline  
post #22219 of 35315 Old 08-18-2014, 10:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
N8DOGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 6,878
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 823 Post(s)
Liked: 884
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
No, I was responding to N8DOGG's fun razzing of the cost of parts. My point was that for a company to keep the lights on, provide support, be there for warranty, not loose money on the long term average, and hopefully grow, the pair of UM18-22 drivers that sell to you for $560 have to represent at least $800 of the sale price of a sustainable product. There are 2 (not 4), 18" drivers per cabinet with a large slot port with a 3" radius on each end allowing for the 11Hz tuning of the design with no audible port noise.
I didn't mean it in any disrespectful way... of course it would cost more to have a company actually build the thing. Thats why us DIY guys like it so much.... Maybe in a year or 2, you'll be buying drivers from me I'll cut you a good deal

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

N8DOGG is offline  
post #22220 of 35315 Old 08-18-2014, 11:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jbrown15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 8,556
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2518 Post(s)
Liked: 1982
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
I didn't mean it in any disrespectful way... of course it would cost more to have a company actually build the thing. Thats why us DIY guys like it so much.... Maybe in a year or 2, you'll be buying drivers from me I'll cut you a good deal
I hope I can get the "good guy" deal too!....lol
jlpowell84 likes this.
jbrown15 is offline  
post #22221 of 35315 Old 08-19-2014, 03:47 AM
Member
 
emr25's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 195
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Boiled down:

Reference is 85dB with 20dB of headroom for dynamics. =105dB peaks for speakers. Subs are 85dB with 30 dB of headroom for dynamics. = 115dB for subs.

Room size is immaterial. The AVR adjusts spl level to meet this criteria in any size room as best it can within the available channel level trim range. Assuming capable speakers and amplifier, speakers should hit 105dB dynamic peaks in any size room. That's the point of a standardized reference.
This falls right in line with what I saw while watching Olympus Has Fallen at 0 dB MV. I had my cheap Parts Express SPL meter on the "max" setting while watching and it was around 105 dB. I'm sure some LFE scenes where actually louder, but I don't know how accurate that SPL meter is for low frequencies with its weighting type and cheaper components.

Video - Panasonic VT50 55" | Panasonic BDT320
AVR - Denon X4000 | Sherbourn PA 7-350
Speakers - JTR Noesis 228HT | DIY Sound Group Volt V10 | JTR Captivator S2
emr25 is offline  
post #22222 of 35315 Old 08-19-2014, 08:06 AM
Point Source
 
beastaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Western NC
Posts: 11,131
Mentioned: 209 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2955 Post(s)
Liked: 2370
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
Jbrown, what is it for the Falcon material? Brandon, how far is your spandex from yours? Not sure if that Danley is different from having a direct radiating speaker/drivers closer

edit...read the next page lol...
I am over a foot back to the danleys from my screen. I bumped the screen way out last time I made any changes to the soundproofing as I wanted flexibility behind there to position the corinthian stacks anywhere I felt necessary. Well, I have yet to move it back, and might not at this point

Man, those subs look fun. I have the capability at this point to design every aspect of that box OTHER than the 3 inch roundover. That would be a pretty serious router bit.....and router for that matter...Haha...
beastaudio is online now  
post #22223 of 35315 Old 08-19-2014, 08:09 AM
AVS Special Member
 
desertdome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Elkhorn, NE
Posts: 2,992
Mentioned: 131 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 897 Post(s)
Liked: 956
Quote:
Originally Posted by emr25 View Post
This falls right in line with what I saw while watching Olympus Has Fallen at 0 dB MV. I had my cheap Parts Express SPL meter on the "max" setting while watching and it was around 105 dB. I'm sure some LFE scenes where actually louder, but I don't know how accurate that SPL meter is for low frequencies with its weighting type and cheaper components.
In Olympus Has Fallen, a system playing back at 0 MV can have peaks of around 120 dB or more due to the combined channel output. The SPL meter really isn't fast enough to catch most of the peaks, though.

Reference Level varies with room volume. Attached is the recommended SPL at various room volumes:



Quote:
A universal observation is that an identical sound pressure level is perceived as louder in small rooms, such as control rooms, than in large rooms such as cinemas. The reference sound pressure level in this document has been tested for interchangeability with SMPTE RP 200 [6] employed in large spaces.
emr25 likes this.
desertdome is online now  
post #22224 of 35315 Old 08-19-2014, 08:46 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Reefdvr27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Cape May, NJ (South Jersey)
Posts: 4,273
Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1479 Post(s)
Liked: 976
With the ported sub talk lately, I am curious to hear from the 215 guys how they are making out with pairing sealed with ported as most are. Are you using subs or just running full range. I have talked to you all individually, but wanted to see how things are now. Seeing this ported subs has me thinking maybe getting a pair of ported subs or just running full range.
Reefdvr27 is offline  
post #22225 of 35315 Old 08-19-2014, 09:02 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Mark Seaton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 6,474
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 421 Post(s)
Liked: 1038
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
In Olympus Has Fallen, a system playing back at 0 MV can have peaks of around 120 dB or more due to the combined channel output. The SPL meter really isn't fast enough to catch most of the peaks, though.

Reference Level varies with room volume. Attached is the recommended SPL at various room volumes:

It's important to remember the "why" driving this recommendation. This stems from assumed similar acoustics vs a changing room size as would be likely in either commercial theaters or mixing rooms. This is a huge factor in why those with heavily treated, dedicated theaters find higher main volume levels more comfortable than those in a typical, untreated living room.

In short our hearing system senses loudness based on sound power, not just intensity. For those reading along, this means subjective loudness relates to intensity*time, not just peak SPL. The more reflections can keep bouncing around without dissipating, the longer any burst of sound will exist in the room, and will sound louder. Go slam a book shut in your bathroom/shower vs standing outside. The sound from the book closing didn't change, but in the bathroom the sound kept bouncing around at nearly the level it started at making it seem MUCH louder.

While such reflections do make the time averaged SPL (like the pink noise test tones) measure louder, most deteriorate the clarity, intelligibility and overall quality. Since we don't calibrate based on the direct sound only, but rather on direct and all reflected energy, this means that in a reflective room the "calibrated" playback will actually have less peak SPL but have much more sustained energy due to reflections.
Frohlich, Archaea, asoofi1 and 3 others like this.

Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood..." Daniel H. Burnham
Mark Seaton is online now  
post #22226 of 35315 Old 08-19-2014, 09:08 AM
Member
 
emr25's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 195
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
In Olympus Has Fallen, a system playing back at 0 MV can have peaks of around 120 dB or more due to the combined channel output. The SPL meter really isn't fast enough to catch most of the peaks, though.

Reference Level varies with room volume. Attached is the recommended SPL at various room volumes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
It's important to remember the "why" driving this recommendation. This stems from assumed similar acoustics vs a changing room size as would be likely in either commercial theaters or mixing rooms. This is a huge factor in why those with heavily treated, dedicated theaters find higher main volume levels more comfortable than those in a typical, untreated living room.

In short our hearing system senses loudness based on sound power, not just intensity. For those reading along, this means subjective loudness relates to intensity*time, not just peak SPL. The more reflections can keep bouncing around without dissipating, the longer any burst of sound will exist in the room, and will sound louder. Go slam a book shut in your bathroom/shower vs standing outside. The sound from the book closing didn't change, but in the bathroom the sound kept bouncing around at nearly the level it started at making it seem MUCH louder.

While such reflections do make the time averaged SPL (like the pink noise test tones) measure louder, most deteriorate the clarity, intelligibility and overall quality. Since we don't calibrate based on the direct sound only, but rather on direct and all reflected energy, this means that in a reflective room the "calibrated" playback will actually have less peak SPL but have much more sustained energy due to reflections.
Great posts here, thanks for the informative responses! My room definitely falls into the "reflective" category given it is small and completely untreated.

Video - Panasonic VT50 55" | Panasonic BDT320
AVR - Denon X4000 | Sherbourn PA 7-350
Speakers - JTR Noesis 228HT | DIY Sound Group Volt V10 | JTR Captivator S2
emr25 is offline  
post #22227 of 35315 Old 08-19-2014, 10:14 AM
Point Source
 
beastaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Western NC
Posts: 11,131
Mentioned: 209 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2955 Post(s)
Liked: 2370
Quote:
Originally Posted by emr25 View Post
Great posts here, thanks for the informative responses! My room definitely falls into the "reflective" category given it is small and completely untreated.
I will go into a little more detail from my own experience in my own space. My first full setup with the triple12's i had absolutely zero treatments in the room, and rarely went above -8 for any material, even showing off. The speakers could easily run well past -8 but the sound began to fall apart and not feel too good on the ears. I usually watched movies at a level between -12 and -14. Since treating the room, and optimizing the space quite a bit more, I have found that movies at reference are certainly "loud" but so clean it is hard to pass up. Beforehand, reference on the same movies was almost painful. Yes, I have always eq'd my system to the same spec at the same MLP give or take a few inches, but it just goes to show what a properly treated room can do to your listening levels.
beastaudio is online now  
post #22228 of 35315 Old 08-19-2014, 10:36 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Archaea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 9,386
Mentioned: 344 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2439 Post(s)
Liked: 2083
@desertdome


DD, In the spirit of this discussion. I've never heard of adjusting reference to the size of one's room, who does this? How common is this knowledge? Who all follows this room size manual adjustment? Anyone in this thread?


I know you know this - but for those following who don't - to my understanding AVRs and pre-amps don't take room size into account. They match to 85dB regardless of room size. (75dB according to AVR or pre-amp test tones, but internally adjusted to account for the 85dB point as it relates to reference. 75dB instead of 85dB because of people complaining that 85dB test tones are too loud). My Onkyos have been in multiple rooms and after running the auto calibration, the test tones are always right at nearly 75dB for all speakers - regardless of acoustic treatment, or room size - as verified with my omnimic. My old room and my new room for instance are vastly differently acoustically (old incredibly reflective, new treated with baffle wall and larger) - but both rooms (after running Audyssey) set the 5508's test tones to 75dB. How could the AVR know what your room size is?

I will not hoard audio gear
I will not hoard audio gear
I will not hoard audio gear
Archaea's FS Thread
Archaea is offline  
post #22229 of 35315 Old 08-19-2014, 10:42 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Mark Seaton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 6,474
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 421 Post(s)
Liked: 1038
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
@desertdome


DD, In the spirit of this discussion. I've never heard of adjusting reference to the size of one's room, who does this? How common is this knowledge? Who all follows this room size manual adjustment? Anyone in this thread?


I know you know this - but for those following who don't - to my understanding AVRs and pre-amps don't take room size into account. They match to 85dB regardless of room size. (75dB according to AVR or pre-amp test tones, but internally adjusted to account for the 85dB point as it relates to reference. 75dB instead of 85dB because of people complaining that 85dB test tones are too loud). My Onkyos have been in multiple rooms and after running the auto calibration, the test tones are always right at nearly 75dB for all speakers - regardless of acoustic treatment, or room size - as verified with my omnimic. My old room and my new room for instance are vastly differently acoustically (old incredibly reflective, new treated with baffle wall and larger) - but both rooms (after running Audyssey) set the 5508's test tones to 75dB. How could the AVR know what your room size is?
The AVR doesn't. The link relates to mastering and playback across a wide range of spaces. Basically all "home" environments are assumed to fall in the same classification, and if your room does depart from the norm, you'll more than likely turn it up or down a few dB without prompting as it will be subjectively too loud or not loud enough.

Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood..." Daniel H. Burnham
Mark Seaton is online now  
post #22230 of 35315 Old 08-19-2014, 10:57 AM
AVS Special Member
 
thxman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: North TX
Posts: 1,837
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 346 Post(s)
Liked: 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Who has dbox in kc?
I am about 7 and 1/2 hours from you, but you can demo D-Box as much as you want and I can teach you all you would ever want to know about D-box.

And if you bring a pair of 228HT I can finally get off my A$$ about getting some JTR speakers.

We can split the cost of gas. Just a thought.
Archaea likes this.
thxman is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Speakers

Tags
215RT , 228ht , captivator , Jtr , Jtr Noesis 212ht 212ht Lp , noesis



Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off