Official JTR speaker thread - Page 745 - AVS Forum
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post #22321 of 26587 Old 08-18-2014, 10:33 PM
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I have asked this before but unable to grasp the concept yet...My "pre-apolgy" for the nube-like understanding of this...So I have been under he impression the point of Audyssey or other auto calibration systems, or even manually, is to get all speakers/subs calibrated on the same level (baseline before the usually LFE bump up) and also in respect to "reference." I read once an AVS member saying room size doesn't meter because Audyssey will set your system to be able to play reference in your "specific room." So why then do I watch movies at -16 average? It is not an issue of being 16db quieter than what some of you listen at. I guarantee you I brush up to the "uncomfortable" loud and then back off 2-3db for a enjoyment of the movie or music. I see (emr25) watched a movie at reference in his 12x10 room. Just curious why the drastic differences of some people MV. Now I watched the newest Transformers movie in the local theater a month ago. It was loud, uncomfortably loud. Several times I cringed and thought it needed a 6db drop to be at the line I brush up too. Anyway, looking for a scientific, logical explanation

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post #22322 of 26587 Old 08-18-2014, 10:38 PM
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Another topic. JTR specific. I have been thinking about changing out my Open DRC-AN unit for a Nanoavr. I would have the same current LFE channel capabilities but also gain speaker EQ manipulation as well. I have thought about trying to do some "mid-bass" boost like a fellow JTR-ite did with his T12's. My Triple8's (all three) have the Dayton drivers Jeff used to use. I mention because I believe they have more Xmax than the newer Eminence drivers. Jeff said awhile back no reason to switch them out for Eminence as they work just fine. Now the Xmax may not matter to mid bass frequencies, I don't claim to be that speaker learned So my main question is lets say I boost the mid-bass like 4-5db. Do I need some external amplification rather than relying on my Denon 4520?

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post #22323 of 26587 Old 08-18-2014, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
I have asked this before but unable to grasp the concept yet...My "pre-apolgy" for the nube-like understanding of this...So I have been under he impression the point of Audyssey or other auto calibration systems, or even manually, is to get all speakers/subs calibrated on the same level (baseline before the usually LFE bump up) and also in respect to "reference." I read once an AVS member saying room size doesn't meter because Audyssey will set your system to be able to play reference in your "specific room." So why then do I watch movies at -16 average? It is not an issue of being 16db quieter than what some of you listen at. I guarantee you I brush up to the "uncomfortable" loud and then back off 2-3db for a enjoyment of the movie or music. I see (emr25) watched a movie at reference in his 12x10 room. Just curious why the drastic differences of some people MV. Now I watched the newest Transformers movie in the local theater a month ago. It was loud, uncomfortably loud. Several times I cringed and thought it needed a 6db drop to be at the line I brush up too. Anyway, looking for a scientific, logical explanation
Boiled down:

Reference is 85dB with 20dB of headroom for dynamics. =105dB peaks for speakers. Subs are 85dB with 30 dB of headroom for dynamics. = 115dB for subs.

Room size is immaterial. The AVR adjusts spl level to meet this criteria in any size room as best it can within the available channel level trim range. Assuming capable speakers and amplifier, speakers should hit 105dB dynamic peaks in any size room. That's the point of a standardized reference.

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post #22324 of 26587 Old 08-18-2014, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Boiled down:

Reference is 85dB with 20dB of headroom for dynamics. =105dB peaks for speakers. Subs are 85dB with 30 dB of headroom for dynamics. = 115dB for subs.

Room size is immaterial. The AVR adjusts spl level to meet this criteria in any size room as best it can within the available channel level trim range. Assuming capable speakers and amplifier, speakers should hit 105dB dynamic peaks in any size room. That's the point of a standardized reference.
So then my MV number is irrelevant as long as an SPL meter reads the right numbers right?

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post #22325 of 26587 Old 08-18-2014, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
That is one awesome looking ported sub Mark, pretty bad A$$!!!

Sorry Mark are you saying that a pair of the subs with two UM18-22's per sub make up $800? So four drivers?
No, I was responding to N8DOGG's fun razzing of the cost of parts. My point was that for a company to keep the lights on, provide support, be there for warranty, not loose money on the long term average, and hopefully grow, the pair of UM18-22 drivers that sell to you for $560 have to represent at least $800 of the sale price of a sustainable product. There are 2 (not 4), 18" drivers per cabinet with a large slot port with a 3" radius on each end allowing for the 11Hz tuning of the design with no audible port noise.
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post #22326 of 26587 Old 08-18-2014, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
Another topic. JTR specific. I have been thinking about changing out my Open DRC-AN unit for a Nanoavr. I would have the same current LFE channel capabilities but also gain speaker EQ manipulation as well. I have thought about trying to do some "mid-bass" boost like a fellow JTR-ite did with his T12's. My Triple8's (all three) have the Dayton drivers Jeff used to use. I mention because I believe they have more Xmax than the newer Eminence drivers. Jeff said awhile back no reason to switch them out for Eminence as they work just fine. Now the Xmax may not matter to mid bass frequencies, I don't claim to be that speaker learned So my main question is lets say I boost the mid-bass like 4-5db. Do I need some external amplification rather than relying on my Denon 4520?

if you sell the opendrc, let me know, I'd likely buy it from you. I could use another one. pm me with a price you have in mind if you do sell it.

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post #22327 of 26587 Old 08-18-2014, 11:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
No, I was responding to N8DOGG's fun razzing of the cost of parts. My point was that for a company to keep the lights on, provide support, be there for warranty, not loose money on the long term average, and hopefully grow, the pair of UM18-22 drivers that sell to you for $560 have to represent at least $800 of the sale price of a sustainable product. There are 2 (not 4), 18" drivers per cabinet with a large slot port with a 3" radius on each end allowing for the 11Hz tuning of the design with no audible port noise.
No I hear you there, I'm in sales and sell industrial automation. You definitely need to make money and be able to stick around for years to be able to continue to sell to your customers!.....lol

I love the stuff you make, just wish I could afford it......lol
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post #22328 of 26587 Old 08-18-2014, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
No, I was responding to N8DOGG's fun razzing of the cost of parts. My point was that for a company to keep the lights on, provide support, be there for warranty, not loose money on the long term average, and hopefully grow, the pair of UM18-22 drivers that sell to you for $560 have to represent at least $800 of the sale price of a sustainable product. There are 2 (not 4), 18" drivers per cabinet with a large slot port with a 3" radius on each end allowing for the 11Hz tuning of the design with no audible port noise.
I didn't mean it in any disrespectful way... of course it would cost more to have a company actually build the thing. Thats why us DIY guys like it so much.... Maybe in a year or 2, you'll be buying drivers from me I'll cut you a good deal

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post #22329 of 26587 Old 08-19-2014, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
I didn't mean it in any disrespectful way... of course it would cost more to have a company actually build the thing. Thats why us DIY guys like it so much.... Maybe in a year or 2, you'll be buying drivers from me I'll cut you a good deal
I hope I can get the "good guy" deal too!....lol
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post #22330 of 26587 Old 08-19-2014, 04:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Boiled down:

Reference is 85dB with 20dB of headroom for dynamics. =105dB peaks for speakers. Subs are 85dB with 30 dB of headroom for dynamics. = 115dB for subs.

Room size is immaterial. The AVR adjusts spl level to meet this criteria in any size room as best it can within the available channel level trim range. Assuming capable speakers and amplifier, speakers should hit 105dB dynamic peaks in any size room. That's the point of a standardized reference.
This falls right in line with what I saw while watching Olympus Has Fallen at 0 dB MV. I had my cheap Parts Express SPL meter on the "max" setting while watching and it was around 105 dB. I'm sure some LFE scenes where actually louder, but I don't know how accurate that SPL meter is for low frequencies with its weighting type and cheaper components.

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post #22331 of 26587 Old 08-19-2014, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
Jbrown, what is it for the Falcon material? Brandon, how far is your spandex from yours? Not sure if that Danley is different from having a direct radiating speaker/drivers closer

edit...read the next page lol...
I am over a foot back to the danleys from my screen. I bumped the screen way out last time I made any changes to the soundproofing as I wanted flexibility behind there to position the corinthian stacks anywhere I felt necessary. Well, I have yet to move it back, and might not at this point

Man, those subs look fun. I have the capability at this point to design every aspect of that box OTHER than the 3 inch roundover. That would be a pretty serious router bit.....and router for that matter...Haha...

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post #22332 of 26587 Old 08-19-2014, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by emr25 View Post
This falls right in line with what I saw while watching Olympus Has Fallen at 0 dB MV. I had my cheap Parts Express SPL meter on the "max" setting while watching and it was around 105 dB. I'm sure some LFE scenes where actually louder, but I don't know how accurate that SPL meter is for low frequencies with its weighting type and cheaper components.
In Olympus Has Fallen, a system playing back at 0 MV can have peaks of around 120 dB or more due to the combined channel output. The SPL meter really isn't fast enough to catch most of the peaks, though.

Reference Level varies with room volume. Attached is the recommended SPL at various room volumes:



Quote:
A universal observation is that an identical sound pressure level is perceived as louder in small rooms, such as control rooms, than in large rooms such as cinemas. The reference sound pressure level in this document has been tested for interchangeability with SMPTE RP 200 [6] employed in large spaces.
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post #22333 of 26587 Old 08-19-2014, 09:46 AM
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With the ported sub talk lately, I am curious to hear from the 215 guys how they are making out with pairing sealed with ported as most are. Are you using subs or just running full range. I have talked to you all individually, but wanted to see how things are now. Seeing this ported subs has me thinking maybe getting a pair of ported subs or just running full range.
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post #22334 of 26587 Old 08-19-2014, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
In Olympus Has Fallen, a system playing back at 0 MV can have peaks of around 120 dB or more due to the combined channel output. The SPL meter really isn't fast enough to catch most of the peaks, though.

Reference Level varies with room volume. Attached is the recommended SPL at various room volumes:

It's important to remember the "why" driving this recommendation. This stems from assumed similar acoustics vs a changing room size as would be likely in either commercial theaters or mixing rooms. This is a huge factor in why those with heavily treated, dedicated theaters find higher main volume levels more comfortable than those in a typical, untreated living room.

In short our hearing system senses loudness based on sound power, not just intensity. For those reading along, this means subjective loudness relates to intensity*time, not just peak SPL. The more reflections can keep bouncing around without dissipating, the longer any burst of sound will exist in the room, and will sound louder. Go slam a book shut in your bathroom/shower vs standing outside. The sound from the book closing didn't change, but in the bathroom the sound kept bouncing around at nearly the level it started at making it seem MUCH louder.

While such reflections do make the time averaged SPL (like the pink noise test tones) measure louder, most deteriorate the clarity, intelligibility and overall quality. Since we don't calibrate based on the direct sound only, but rather on direct and all reflected energy, this means that in a reflective room the "calibrated" playback will actually have less peak SPL but have much more sustained energy due to reflections.
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post #22335 of 26587 Old 08-19-2014, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
In Olympus Has Fallen, a system playing back at 0 MV can have peaks of around 120 dB or more due to the combined channel output. The SPL meter really isn't fast enough to catch most of the peaks, though.

Reference Level varies with room volume. Attached is the recommended SPL at various room volumes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
It's important to remember the "why" driving this recommendation. This stems from assumed similar acoustics vs a changing room size as would be likely in either commercial theaters or mixing rooms. This is a huge factor in why those with heavily treated, dedicated theaters find higher main volume levels more comfortable than those in a typical, untreated living room.

In short our hearing system senses loudness based on sound power, not just intensity. For those reading along, this means subjective loudness relates to intensity*time, not just peak SPL. The more reflections can keep bouncing around without dissipating, the longer any burst of sound will exist in the room, and will sound louder. Go slam a book shut in your bathroom/shower vs standing outside. The sound from the book closing didn't change, but in the bathroom the sound kept bouncing around at nearly the level it started at making it seem MUCH louder.

While such reflections do make the time averaged SPL (like the pink noise test tones) measure louder, most deteriorate the clarity, intelligibility and overall quality. Since we don't calibrate based on the direct sound only, but rather on direct and all reflected energy, this means that in a reflective room the "calibrated" playback will actually have less peak SPL but have much more sustained energy due to reflections.
Great posts here, thanks for the informative responses! My room definitely falls into the "reflective" category given it is small and completely untreated.

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post #22336 of 26587 Old 08-19-2014, 11:14 AM
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Great posts here, thanks for the informative responses! My room definitely falls into the "reflective" category given it is small and completely untreated.
I will go into a little more detail from my own experience in my own space. My first full setup with the triple12's i had absolutely zero treatments in the room, and rarely went above -8 for any material, even showing off. The speakers could easily run well past -8 but the sound began to fall apart and not feel too good on the ears. I usually watched movies at a level between -12 and -14. Since treating the room, and optimizing the space quite a bit more, I have found that movies at reference are certainly "loud" but so clean it is hard to pass up. Beforehand, reference on the same movies was almost painful. Yes, I have always eq'd my system to the same spec at the same MLP give or take a few inches, but it just goes to show what a properly treated room can do to your listening levels.

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post #22337 of 26587 Old 08-19-2014, 11:36 AM
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@desertdome


DD, In the spirit of this discussion. I've never heard of adjusting reference to the size of one's room, who does this? How common is this knowledge? Who all follows this room size manual adjustment? Anyone in this thread?


I know you know this - but for those following who don't - to my understanding AVRs and pre-amps don't take room size into account. They match to 85dB regardless of room size. (75dB according to AVR or pre-amp test tones, but internally adjusted to account for the 85dB point as it relates to reference. 75dB instead of 85dB because of people complaining that 85dB test tones are too loud). My Onkyos have been in multiple rooms and after running the auto calibration, the test tones are always right at nearly 75dB for all speakers - regardless of acoustic treatment, or room size - as verified with my omnimic. My old room and my new room for instance are vastly differently acoustically (old incredibly reflective, new treated with baffle wall and larger) - but both rooms (after running Audyssey) set the 5508's test tones to 75dB. How could the AVR know what your room size is?

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post #22338 of 26587 Old 08-19-2014, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
@desertdome


DD, In the spirit of this discussion. I've never heard of adjusting reference to the size of one's room, who does this? How common is this knowledge? Who all follows this room size manual adjustment? Anyone in this thread?


I know you know this - but for those following who don't - to my understanding AVRs and pre-amps don't take room size into account. They match to 85dB regardless of room size. (75dB according to AVR or pre-amp test tones, but internally adjusted to account for the 85dB point as it relates to reference. 75dB instead of 85dB because of people complaining that 85dB test tones are too loud). My Onkyos have been in multiple rooms and after running the auto calibration, the test tones are always right at nearly 75dB for all speakers - regardless of acoustic treatment, or room size - as verified with my omnimic. My old room and my new room for instance are vastly differently acoustically (old incredibly reflective, new treated with baffle wall and larger) - but both rooms (after running Audyssey) set the 5508's test tones to 75dB. How could the AVR know what your room size is?
The AVR doesn't. The link relates to mastering and playback across a wide range of spaces. Basically all "home" environments are assumed to fall in the same classification, and if your room does depart from the norm, you'll more than likely turn it up or down a few dB without prompting as it will be subjectively too loud or not loud enough.

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post #22339 of 26587 Old 08-19-2014, 11:57 AM
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Who has dbox in kc?
I am about 7 and 1/2 hours from you, but you can demo D-Box as much as you want and I can teach you all you would ever want to know about D-box.

And if you bring a pair of 228HT I can finally get off my A$$ about getting some JTR speakers.

We can split the cost of gas. Just a thought.
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post #22340 of 26587 Old 08-19-2014, 01:18 PM
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How could the AVR know what your room size is?
In JRiver you enter it under Tools > Options > Audio > Room Size. I forget that most are using receivers.

J/K
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post #22341 of 26587 Old 08-19-2014, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
In JRiver you enter it under Tools > Options > Audio > Room Size. I forget that most are using receivers.

J/K

What is that document?

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post #22342 of 26587 Old 08-19-2014, 01:31 PM
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if you sell the opendrc, let me know, I'd likely buy it from you. I could use another one. pm me with a price you have in mind if you do sell it.
lol, actually you came to mind first. What are your thoughts Nate on me going to a Nanoavr? Same capabilties as Open DRC (minus the auto filters I think) but I get speaker EQ ability. I would love to bring the 2k-4k region down a bit. Also want to try a "little" midbass" boost but I need to know if I need amps for that as my 4520 puts out around 90-100 watts a channel I think. It would just sit elsewhere in the signal chain...

Quote:
Originally Posted by emr25 View Post
This falls right in line with what I saw while watching Olympus Has Fallen at 0 dB MV. I had my cheap Parts Express SPL meter on the "max" setting while watching and it was around 105 dB. I'm sure some LFE scenes where actually louder, but I don't know how accurate that SPL meter is for low frequencies with its weighting type and cheaper components.
I will have to try. I have the RS SPL $50 meter. I think it's common knowledge that one is consistenly 10db approx low on the subs usually. Immediately after an Audyssey cal it will read 64-66 which is further proof as it is really 75db Audyssey sets it at.

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post #22343 of 26587 Old 08-19-2014, 02:09 PM
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Who has dbox in kc?
And if you ever make it to Houston, I'll show you as well. I do owe you since I saw the JTR at your place.

We do have GTG to see theaters here occasionally. We have one next weekend actually at AV Texans.'

But you're always welcome.
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post #22344 of 26587 Old 08-19-2014, 02:19 PM
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What is that document?
ATSC's A/85 – Techniques for Establishing and Maintaining Audio Loudness for Digital Television

Here is a list of all broadcast standards and how they interact:
http://www.tcelectronic.com/loudness...ast-standards/
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post #22345 of 26587 Old 08-19-2014, 03:41 PM
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I guess I should also ask how the Triple 8's compare to the 228's? I'm intrigued by the low profile option of the t8's.
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post #22346 of 26587 Old 08-19-2014, 03:52 PM
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With the ported sub talk lately, I am curious to hear from the 215 guys how they are making out with pairing sealed with ported as most are. Are you using subs or just running full range. I have talked to you all individually, but wanted to see how things are now. Seeing this ported subs has me thinking maybe getting a pair of ported subs or just running full range.

For music the subs never get turned on, but for movies sometimes I run the mains large + subs and sometimes I cross the mains at 50 hz and run them small. There really isn't much difference other than the fact that for a demo I do get some more db's with large mains + subs if I want to go crazy and subjectively it is more impressive at the system's limits.

For normal movie watching either way is fine, I just turn down the bass eq a touch on the mains and turn down the trim on the subs a touch too if running large mains + subs compared to running the mains small and crossing them over.

I have reached the point where I don't want or need any more bass. My house and ears are at their limit when things are cranked up which doesn't even happen very often anyway.
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post #22347 of 26587 Old 08-19-2014, 04:29 PM
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Okay, so who has a pair of 212HT's that they want to sell and who wants to buy a pair of 228HT's?.....lol
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post #22348 of 26587 Old 08-19-2014, 08:04 PM
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In Olympus Has Fallen, a system playing back at 0 MV can have peaks of around 120 dB or more due to the combined channel output. The SPL meter really isn't fast enough to catch most of the peaks, though.

Reference Level varies with room volume. Attached is the recommended SPL at various room volumes:

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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
It's important to remember the "why" driving this recommendation. This stems from assumed similar acoustics vs a changing room size as would be likely in either commercial theaters or mixing rooms. This is a huge factor in why those with heavily treated, dedicated theaters find higher main volume levels more comfortable than those in a typical, untreated living room.

In short our hearing system senses loudness based on sound power, not just intensity. For those reading along, this means subjective loudness relates to intensity*time, not just peak SPL. The more reflections can keep bouncing around without dissipating, the longer any burst of sound will exist in the room, and will sound louder. Go slam a book shut in your bathroom/shower vs standing outside. The sound from the book closing didn't change, but in the bathroom the sound kept bouncing around at nearly the level it started at making it seem MUCH louder.

While such reflections do make the time averaged SPL (like the pink noise test tones) measure louder, most deteriorate the clarity, intelligibility and overall quality. Since we don't calibrate based on the direct sound only, but rather on direct and all reflected energy, this means that in a reflective room the "calibrated" playback will actually have less peak SPL but have much more sustained energy due to reflections.
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Great posts here, thanks for the informative responses! My room definitely falls into the "reflective" category given it is small and completely untreated.
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I will go into a little more detail from my own experience in my own space. My first full setup with the triple12's i had absolutely zero treatments in the room, and rarely went above -8 for any material, even showing off. The speakers could easily run well past -8 but the sound began to fall apart and not feel too good on the ears. I usually watched movies at a level between -12 and -14. Since treating the room, and optimizing the space quite a bit more, I have found that movies at reference are certainly "loud" but so clean it is hard to pass up. Beforehand, reference on the same movies was almost painful. Yes, I have always eq'd my system to the same spec at the same MLP give or take a few inches, but it just goes to show what a properly treated room can do to your listening levels.
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The AVR doesn't. The link relates to mastering and playback across a wide range of spaces. Basically all "home" environments are assumed to fall in the same classification, and if your room does depart from the norm, you'll more than likely turn it up or down a few dB without prompting as it will be subjectively too loud or not loud enough.
When I first built all my room treatments I was hanging around -10 or -11 on the MV. After I built the Volt 10's and re-calibrated XT32 I was back to -17ish...The room was noticeably quieter and REW read my noise floor from 42.5db avg to 38.5 after the treatments. I understand Mark's description of reflections and the "hanging" energy changing the perceived loudness in a room, smaller in particular. But still don't grasp why I am at -17avg. I guess I just need to see what the SPL meter reads and go from there. Doesn't make any difference I was just curious as why some are at 0 and I am at -17avg? I have been thinking the 2k-4k region could be a chunk of the equation. My last graph had my Triple 8's a little bloated in that region...

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post #22349 of 26587 Old 08-19-2014, 08:24 PM
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lol, actually you came to mind first. What are your thoughts Nate on me going to a Nanoavr? Same capabilties as Open DRC (minus the auto filters I think) but I get speaker EQ ability. I would love to bring the 2k-4k region down a bit. Also want to try a "little" midbass" boost but I need to know if I need amps for that as my 4520 puts out around 90-100 watts a channel I think. It would just sit elsewhere in the signal chain...
I have no idea about the Nanoavr but I'm gonna look into it. It would be nice to have a EQ although how much will that EQ degrade the sound on a box shoved into the middle of your chain... that I dunno.

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #22350 of 26587 Old 08-19-2014, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
I have no idea about the Nanoavr but I'm gonna look into it. It would be nice to have a EQ although how much will that EQ degrade the sound on a box shoved into the middle of your chain... that I dunno.
I guess dgage and coach are our lab rats there

One thing I want to know for sure is how it will do in my system. I actually might have to keep my Open DRC in the fact that it takes ALL, 100% of the noise out of my two Submersives. I took it out one time and the noise was horrible. I don't think the Nanoavr up in the chain will do that.

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Last edited by jlpowell84; 08-19-2014 at 08:43 PM.
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