Official JTR speaker thread - Page 748 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #22411 of 31063 Old 08-21-2014, 09:56 PM
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Jonathan, so what you're saying is that you're not going to start a DIY sub company now?....lol


Can't say that I blame you...lol
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post #22412 of 31063 Old 08-21-2014, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Ooops. They were in the same folder and I posted the wrong FR graphs. Those are for the M2.
Why you little....I outta...

Quote:
Here are the JTR ones. Realize that I have a major highway near me and you need to interpret the measurements, particularly the LF part, in that light. Best I can do at my house.
I buy that those are closer but still, how the hell do you get that type of extension? I could only dream.
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post #22413 of 31063 Old 08-22-2014, 05:07 AM
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My thinking is very similar to yours Archaea. I have more work to do before I throw in the towel but so far I haven't been able to add enough boost to the 212s with the MiniDSP. Maybe with the 10 PEQs of the PT-7030 and the 10 PEQs of the MiniDSP I'll be able to get it the way I want but so far it hasn't happened. I'm also considering buying Jriver with Audiolense room correction and maybe that can do some between signal-fu than I've been able to.

I was even at Coach's and joked about throwing on 10DB of boost on the 212s in the midbass region...and the measurement line barely moved. And that was with Coach's 800w Sunfire so my idea of throwing a D-Sonic at it doesn't seem too promising.

I don't want to say anything to Jeff until I've done more and have more measurements. But what I just measured confirms my in-room playing and appalls me that a pair of 12" woofers don't do more below 100Hz, even simply out of the box. I shouldn't have to go through such herculean efforts to get some output between 80 and 100Hz. Listening to my 212 against the Cat12 and 215RM made the 212 sound like a 3" Bose speaker...I'm not being overly dramatic here, it was seriously night and day...you knew immediately the 212 didn't belong in that fight. Now don't get me wrong, I really like the 212 from 200Hz on up, even better than the Cat12 (haven't heard Coach's final calibration yet) and even better than the 215RT/RM (fully calibrated) but I didn't spend $2000+ on each speaker to play them from 150/200Hz on up.
I appreciate the frustration with not getting the midbass you want. it is such an important part of the FR for most. IF a 10dB increase in EQ didn't do anything it is almost certainly a room mode. I have to say I didn't think your outside measurement looked quite as flat as I thought it would and it did drop off too early. I agree since you are just getting use to your measurement equipment maybe gain a little more time with it before making a final conclusion about whether it is operating correctly.


I am not trying to talk you out of going to another speaker and the Cats can certainly use multiple dsp settings for lower XO points which is great. I just hate to see you get something in room and then still have the same issue. If the driver's physical placement with a new speaker is different that could make a difference too. I am like you and find the mid/high so good on the Noesis and I would hate to lose that!

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post #22414 of 31063 Old 08-22-2014, 05:32 AM
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Coach, are you listening to the Cat12's in the standard DSP mode or the optional one that Mark offers?
I am listening to the one that he has set to run with subs. He told me the second setting is closer to full range..
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post #22415 of 31063 Old 08-22-2014, 05:43 AM
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I appreciate the frustration with not getting the midbass you want. it is such an important part of the FR for most. IF a 10dB increase in EQ didn't do anything it is almost certainly a room mode. I have to say I didn't think your outside measurement looked quite as flat as I thought it would and it did drop off too early. I agree since you are just getting use to your measurement equipment maybe gain a little more time with it before making a final conclusion about whether it is operating correctly.


I am not trying to talk you out of going to another speaker and the Cats can certainly use multiple dsp settings for lower XO points which is great. I just hate to see you get something in room and then still have the same issue. If the driver's physical placement with a new speaker is different that could make a difference too. I am like you and find the mid/high so good on the Noesis and I would hate to lose that!
Based on your focus of a room mode do you think I've made my mind to switch and am just bad mouthing JTR speakers? No. I don't know what I'd switch to if I were to sell the 212HT-LPs that I'm speaking negatively about, which I'm smart enough to realize my comments will directly affect the value of the speakers I MIGHT but HOPEFULLY WON'T sell in the future. I have no desire to bad mouth JTR speakers, I am strictly speaking my opinion of my speaker that most have not heard but while being AWESOME from 200Hz up, is currently too light in the big boy pants down low. I hope my comments will make sure that no one buys the 212HT-LPs WITHOUT LISTENING TO THEM FOR THEMSELVES.

We've been going back and forth on the room mode issue. I just showed a measurement outside, 5' up in the air, that my 212s drop below 100. I've mentioned that I get similar results on all 3 of my 212HT-LPs in the front left, center, and front right of my room. I've also taken my speakers to Coach's and they measure similarly there and also don't sound in the same league as the Cat12s and 215s in terms of fullness down low. Same weak midbass when I took them to Beasts and ran them against the (much larger) SH50s. So no, I don't think it is a room issue at this point, I think it is a speaker issue or speaker design issue. I will get more measurements before I'm ready to declare defeat with the 212HT-LPs though as I personally want to know what I'm dealing with, want to share with the community so others have more information with which to make a substantial purchase, and in case I go to Jeff and ask what I can do.

The thing is, I don't want to switch. I didn't hear anything in the Cats that tells me they are more detailed at the top of the frequency range but I really haven't had time to listen to music at Coach's and I haven't heard them since Coach had them fully calibrated. At the midbass, I have no doubt they would excite me and address all my midbass concerns, room mOde or not. The thing is, I don't want to change...I want my speaker to act like the $2000+ speaker I expected based on all the reviews and specs posted on Jeff's site. I even like the 212 over the 215 above 200 Hz so I wouldn't necessarily consider the 215RM an upgrade, not to mention they would be two large monoliths in the room. Right now, I don't see any speakers out of JTR, Danley, or Seaton that I know for a fact are my dream speaker...and apparently Gooddoc came to the same conclusion. But I absolutely love hearing that N8Dogg did get his dream speaker....that is AWESOME!

Regarding my measurements, my pro level mic and digital interface/preamp won't be here for a few weeks as the Earthworks M50 microphone is a special order. The measurements I just took are with the UMIK-1 and I've been working with that for about 6 months so there isn't any getting used to my measuring equipment YET. And measurements with REW are easy; set level and measure. The equipment either works or it doesn't, there isn't any day to day tweaking with a USB based microphone.

I'm going over to Asheville to pick up a pair of SI HS24s and a pair of SI HST-18s. Unless something comes up, I'll take more measurements of all 3 of my speakers today and will post the results. Maybe I'll even come up with an off axis jig to test at 0, 30, 60 degrees like Gooddoc did but we'll see.
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post #22416 of 31063 Old 08-22-2014, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
After carefully putting t-nuts in all eight subwoofer enclosures tonight, which took a few hours, (drilled 64 holes incrementally larger till I hit 1/4, then painted around the holes, shop vacing the drills mess out of the cabs, then drove in each of the t-nuts with no sub in place, backing out each bolt after the t-nut was tight - - - it occurred to me that some may think there are too big of profit of margins on DIY stuff. (in relation to the recent conversation about a new ID product based on the ultimax driver in this thread) After spending several hours, on multiple days, and not even getting the drivers in there yet...my opinion - no way.

Before tonight, I'd already spent multiple hours; unboxing the cabs, shopping for parts both online and at home depot, putting the feet on the boxes, unboxing and quality checking the eight subs by running 20hz sine waves through them one at a time in free air for a short bit.
I still have stuff the cabs with polyfill, assemble and mount the back plates with ring terminals and spade connectors, cut 10 gauge wire, wire back plates, wire subs, put subs in boxes, bolt subs into box.
So - - - I've still got a lot of time to sink to finish this project - then if you are selling them, you've got to box them back up too and get them shipped out.
All while answering e-mails, questions, sales related and warranty related, having a presence on the forum - etc.


The job of 'making' a subwoofer takes more time and energy than many people think about --- including myself!





All those T-nuts make my real nuts hurt just from looking at them! I don't think anyone was talking about profit margins... as in saying they were to high.... just what it would cost someone to build the same basic design with the same parts. Thats the whole point of DIY, making something just as good for cheaper! if it wasn't cheaper, no one would do it.

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #22417 of 31063 Old 08-22-2014, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
After carefully putting t-nuts in all eight subwoofer enclosures tonight, which took a few hours, (drilled 64 holes incrementally larger till I hit 1/4, then painted around the holes, shop vacing the drills mess out of the cabs, then drove in each of the t-nuts with no sub in place, backing out each bolt after the t-nut was tight - - - it occurred to me that some may think there are too big of profit of margins on DIY stuff. (in relation to the recent conversation about a new ID product based on the ultimax driver in this thread) After spending several hours, on multiple days, and not even getting the drivers in there yet...my opinion - no way.

Before tonight, I'd already spent multiple hours; unboxing the cabs, shopping for parts both online and at home depot, putting the feet on the boxes, unboxing and quality checking the eight subs by running 20hz sine waves through them one at a time in free air for a short bit.
I still have stuff the cabs with polyfill, assemble and mount the back plates with ring terminals and spade connectors, cut 10 gauge wire, wire back plates, wire subs, put subs in boxes, bolt subs into box.
So - - - I've still got a lot of time to sink to finish this project - then if you are selling them, you've got to box them back up too and get them shipped out.
All while answering e-mails, questions, sales related and warranty related, having a presence on the forum - etc.


The job of 'making' a subwoofer takes more time and energy than many people think about --- including myself!






And this is exactly why I 'overpay' for Mark or Jeff to make subs for me. In the latest round, I just ordered a master/slave of those dual 18 terraforms Mark showed here. I wish I had the know-how and patience to learn do build these things myself, but I just don't. Maybe someday when I retire or something....

Last edited by jparker36; 08-22-2014 at 06:48 AM.
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post #22418 of 31063 Old 08-22-2014, 11:09 AM
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Hi folks,

I am getting ready to launch out on a SBA theater 10x16x23. I have Danley SM60Fs for the LCR. I am wondering if the JTR Single 8HT-lp or Single 8HT would be a good match for surrounds/atmos in terms of timbre matching?

Your thoughts greatly appreciated,
Mike
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post #22419 of 31063 Old 08-22-2014, 11:20 AM
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Hi folks,

I am getting ready to launch out on a SBA theater 10x16x23. I have Danley SM60Fs for the LCR. I am wondering if the JTR Single 8HT-lp or Single 8HT would be a good match for surrounds/atmos in terms of timbre matching?

Your thoughts greatly appreciated,
Mike
Yeah they would pair well. If I would have kept my SM60F's, they would have been mated to my 4 slanted single 8's. I have to ask and it is probably simple and I am missing it, but what does SBA stand for.
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post #22420 of 31063 Old 08-22-2014, 11:25 AM
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Archaea, what is your screen material? AT I remember from your baffle wall pics.

I am gonna go easy and not do an elaborate AT living room setup. Mostly I lost my motivation for all that construction lol! So since that I am considering this material. It was recommended as the best "cheap" material for DIY screens. Better than Spandex but loses AT ability obviously. 1.1 gain.

http://www.amazon.com/Carls-FlexiWhi...AP50Z90N78EM7P

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post #22421 of 31063 Old 08-22-2014, 11:25 AM
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Yeah they would pair well. If I would have kept my SM60F's, they would have been mated to my 4 slanted single 8's. I have to ask and it is probably simple and I am missing it, but what does SBA stand for.
Super Bad Azz..this is the JTR thread son!!!!
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post #22422 of 31063 Old 08-22-2014, 11:33 AM
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Yeah they would pair well. If I would have kept my SM60F's, they would have been mated to my 4 slanted single 8's. I have to ask and it is probably simple and I am missing it, but what does SBA stand for.
Single Bass Array as opposed to Double Bass Array

Double Bass Array (DBA) - The modern bass concept!

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post #22423 of 31063 Old 08-22-2014, 11:54 AM
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Archaea, what is your screen material? AT I remember from your baffle wall pics.

I am gonna go easy and not do an elaborate AT living room setup. Mostly I lost my motivation for all that construction lol! So since that I am considering this material. It was recommended as the best "cheap" material for DIY screens. Better than Spandex but loses AT ability obviously. 1.1 gain.

http://www.amazon.com/Carls-FlexiWhi...AP50Z90N78EM7P
Na dude, you want A-T. Get that center channel where it wants to go....where it NEEDS to go
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post #22424 of 31063 Old 08-22-2014, 12:07 PM
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Na dude, you want A-T. Get that center channel where it wants to go....where it NEEDS to go

Couldn't agree more, I just wish I had done it right from the start instead of having to go through the hassle of selling my old screen and taking a $300 lose!...lol
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post #22425 of 31063 Old 08-22-2014, 12:17 PM
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Couldn't agree more, I just wish I had done it right from the start instead of having to go through the hassle of selling my old screen and taking a $300 lose!...lol
All the cool kids have AT screens
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post #22426 of 31063 Old 08-22-2014, 12:31 PM
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Hi Guys,

just got my triple 8 lps for surrounds. ceiling height is 9 feet. any recommendations on placement height (side note the different woofer is mounted in the upper most position) I can flip this if I have to. Just not sure if I want it really high or slightly above ear level. Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
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post #22427 of 31063 Old 08-22-2014, 12:39 PM
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All the cool kids have AT screens
You said a lot about yourself right there.
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post #22428 of 31063 Old 08-22-2014, 03:03 PM
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Ehhh still not worrying too much about not having an AT screen. I don't want to lose light and the sound from my center is still damn good as is. I've been in a ton of AT rooms now and while I love them I don't feel like I'm losing a ton in my room, in fact I prefer my setup to many, mostly because I like a massive screen and most are smaller - and the fact that the sound of the 215's do it for me.

Seriously guys, I think I'm done buying HT stuff for a long time. I'm so happy with everything right now there just isn't any reason. I haven't had the itch for so long now (haha, relatively speaking).


Still.... I guarantee someday I'll have an AT setup. I think I'll do it all at once down the road - AT, 4k, Atmos. Until that's all figured out I'll be content with my current setup.

It will be fun to live vicariously through you guys as I'm sure you will all have ^ before I do.
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post #22429 of 31063 Old 08-22-2014, 04:40 PM
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Ehhh still not worrying too much about not having an AT screen. I don't want to lose light and the sound from my center is still damn good as is. I've been in a ton of AT rooms now and while I love them I don't feel like I'm losing a ton in my room, in fact I prefer my setup to many, mostly because I like a massive screen and most are smaller - and the fact that the sound of the 215's do it for me.

Seriously guys, I think I'm done buying HT stuff for a long time. I'm so happy with everything right now there just isn't any reason. I haven't had the itch for so long now (haha, relatively speaking).


Still.... I guarantee someday I'll have an AT setup. I think I'll do it all at once down the road - AT, 4k, Atmos. Until that's all figured out I'll be content with my current setup.

It will be fun to live vicariously through you guys as I'm sure you will all have ^ before I do.
I go back and forth on the subject myself. I wish I would have done an AT, but I decided against it and went with the fixed. I just did not have the space. I think the AT screen is very cool and sounds great, but it is something I can live without. Someday in the new house. The one thing I may upgrade on very soon is a masking system from Carada. I am not sure if I can add it to my current screen or if I have to buy a new screen. It is super cool. I wish I would have looked at it a bit more, but that is another day. I have my hand full right now anyway. I have to upgrade my roof

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post #22430 of 31063 Old 08-22-2014, 06:15 PM
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Sorry guys but I didn't get a chance to do measurements for the ongoing saga "Where's Dgage's Midbass". Maybe tomorrow.

I may not have the midbass nailed down but I think I have the subbass covered. I present to you a pair of SI HST-18s and a pair of HS-24s. Should be fun to play with over the next few weeks and compare the HST-18s to my LMS-5400s. In the smaller attached pictures, I compare a quarter to the HUMONGOUS foam surround on the HST-18...damn impressive.

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post #22431 of 31063 Old 08-22-2014, 07:08 PM
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Has Nick decided to finally offer the HST-18's? Man that would be cool if he did.
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post #22432 of 31063 Old 08-22-2014, 07:14 PM
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Has Nick decided to finally offer the HST-18's? Man that would be cool if he did.
I think he's real close to bringing them back, just finalizing details. There were many of us hounding him and he finally relented. He had no choice but to give the people what they want.
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post #22433 of 31063 Old 08-22-2014, 07:56 PM
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I'll throw this out there....anyone have a pair of slant 8hts they looking to sell... I am in the market.


Thanks
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post #22434 of 31063 Old 08-22-2014, 08:55 PM
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Sorry guys but I didn't get a chance to do measurements for the ongoing saga "Where's Dgage's Midbass". Maybe tomorrow.

I may not have the midbass nailed down but I think I have the subbass covered. I present to you a pair of SI HST-18s and a pair of HS-24s. Should be fun to play with over the next few weeks and compare the HST-18s to my LMS-5400s. In the smaller attached pictures, I compare a quarter to the HUMONGOUS foam surround on the HST-18...damn impressive.


once these get pounding the walls may cave in and then room boundary will be a moot point!! They look impressive. What amp will you drive these with? Sealed, ported? Can those 18's work in a horn? OMG!

Pre-Pro: Emotiva XMC-1, DSP: Mini DSP 2x4 balanced
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Speakers: JTR Noesis 212HT (LCR), JTR Slant 8's (surrounds), 3 Orbit Shifter LFU's
Sources: PS3, HTPC, Dish Network
Projector: Epson 8350
Screen: Seymour XD AT 138" diagonal 16:9
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post #22435 of 31063 Old 08-22-2014, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post
once these get pounding the walls may cave in and then room boundary will be a moot point!! They look impressive. What amp will you drive these with? Sealed, ported? Can those 18's work in a horn? OMG!
A pair of SpeakerPower SP2-8000 amps will drive each subwoofer with 4000w at 2 ohms.

They will be sealed cabinets and I'll have to play with cabinet size and DSP to determine what size I'll end up with. Much fun to be had.

Good point on the room boundary. That is indeed one way to get rid of that annoyance and I was thinking about expanding the room anyway. Do you think the insurance company has destruction by subwoofer as a check box on their claims worksheet? LOL!
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post #22436 of 31063 Old 08-23-2014, 12:02 AM
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Na dude, you want A-T. Get that center channel where it wants to go....where it NEEDS to go
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Couldn't agree more, I just wish I had done it right from the start instead of having to go through the hassle of selling my old screen and taking a $300 lose!...lol
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All the cool kids have AT screens
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
Ehhh still not worrying too much about not having an AT screen. I don't want to lose light and the sound from my center is still damn good as is. I've been in a ton of AT rooms now and while I love them I don't feel like I'm losing a ton in my room, in fact I prefer my setup to many, mostly because I like a massive screen and most are smaller - and the fact that the sound of the 215's do it for me.

Seriously guys, I think I'm done buying HT stuff for a long time. I'm so happy with everything right now there just isn't any reason. I haven't had the itch for so long now (haha, relatively speaking).


Still.... I guarantee someday I'll have an AT setup. I think I'll do it all at once down the road - AT, 4k, Atmos. Until that's all figured out I'll be content with my current setup.

It will be fun to live vicariously through you guys as I'm sure you will all have ^ before I do.
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
I go back and forth on the subject myself. I wish I would have done an AT, but I decided against it and went with the fixed. I just did not have the space. I think the AT screen is very cool and sounds great, but it is something I can live without. Someday in the new house. The one thing I may upgrade on very soon is a masking system from Carada. I am not sure if I can add it to my current screen or if I have to buy a new screen. It is super cool. I wish I would have looked at it a bit more, but that is another day. I have my hand full right now anyway. I have to upgrade my roof
Well AT in my living room is a bit of a challenge but can be done. I placed the order for the non AT material but it didn't ship out...Easy to cancel...hmmmm...can change that for spandex...

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post #22437 of 31063 Old 08-23-2014, 02:27 AM
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Has Nick decided to finally offer the HST-18's? Man that would be cool if he did.
90mm of xmax coming at ya!!!
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post #22438 of 31063 Old 08-23-2014, 05:57 AM
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@popalock ,


Last night we damaged on of kcnitro07s lms5400 drivers. The surrround came unglued and started flapping. So we played with the other one most of the night, it is so much less capable than the ported captivatator because of type of box alignment it is ridiculous..
It sounds great, but man the tapped out volume difference is huge between the two. We had the driver tapping a bit metallically as we inched up the volume responsibly, and backed down. MLV? - 17db with the sub 6dB Hot on the Ironman jericho scene. I told him he needs to dump the sealed cabs and go to a big ported cab, cause the lms5400 driver is superior to a captivatator driver and the box alignment made the vast difference.

Doh

I might have to pull a notnyt, sell my eight sealed cabs and make big low ported monster boxes for my eight ultimax after that pitiful output demonstration.

Amp was a bridged crrown xls-5000. We discovered in testing the epx-4000 is weaksause compared to the crown xls-5000. Both amps bridged to four ohm mono. Like 6dB different in headroom, and more compression on the epx-4000 bridged. The epx-4000 couldn't put a hurt on the lms5400 driver, the crown easilky could.

All that playing meant I didn't get my eight sealed finished, a task for today.
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post #22439 of 31063 Old 08-23-2014, 06:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
@popalock ,


Last night we damaged on of kcnitro07s lms5400 drivers. The surrround came unglued and started flapping. So we played with the other one most of the night, it is so much less capable than the ported captivatator because of type of box alignment it is ridiculous..
It sounds great, but man the tapped out volume difference is huge between the two. We had the driver tapping a bit metallically as we inched up the volume responsibly, and backed down. MLV? - 17db with the sub 6dB Hot on the Ironman jericho scene. I told him he needs to dump the sealed cabs and go to a big ported cab, cause the lms5400 driver is superior to a captivatator driver and the box alignment made the vast difference.

Doh

I might have to pull a notnyt, sell my eight sealed cabs and make big low ported monster boxes for my eight ultimax after that pitiful output demonstration.

Amp was a bridged crrown xls-5000. We discovered in testing the epx-4000 is weaksause compared to the crown xls-5000. Both amps bridged to four ohm mono. Like 6dB different in headroom, and more compression on the epx-4000 bridged. The epx-4000 couldn't put a hurt on the lms5400 driver, the crown easilky could.

All that playing meant I didn't get my eight sealed finished, a task for today.


Did he leave the 5400's at your place?

Remember, a lot of the reason the Cap has no problem with scenes like the Iron Man one you played is because they aren't playing the low stuff, meanwhile the 5400 is struggling because it has to play it.

I bet when you get all 8 of your Dayton's setup you will have enough output and headroom that you won't feel like messing with selling the cabinets and going ported.

Also, you will need so much more space for subs. The cabinets will all have to be at least twice the size right? Do you have room for that?

You could go 4 drivers in huge cabinets and then sell the other 4 drivers but you would be taking up the same or more space than you already are with 8 sealed and the output would be similar so there wouldn't be much benefit.

If you have room for 8 massive boxes and need the output then it makes sense.
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post #22440 of 31063 Old 08-23-2014, 06:37 AM
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Yeah he left both here, but only one works now.
Its under warranty and he'll have to send it in. We were not being irresponsible, we were inching up the volume a dB at a time or so until we saw blinking clip lights with the ironman jericho scene with that scene on repeat.
Luke Kamp might come by today too. Carp, come on over when you can.

Yeah for 3 hours of sleep.

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