Official JTR speaker thread - Page 748 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 08-24-2014, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by mankite

Any updates on your comparisions between the triple 12LF'S and the new triple 8's RMK???


I ran out of gas this weekend and concentrated on getting them setup as surrounds and did not do a comparison. I can say that the 8's sound fantastic with MC music and I think they would do a great job as LCR speakers in just about any space. The 12LF's have an extension and SPL advantage but with good subs and in most rooms, I'm thinking they would be comparable. More great speakers from JTR.

I have the 8's on top of my GIK Pillar Traps but this is a temp setup as I will be wall mounting them.

Yep I can agree Maybe not the dream speaker and doesn't have the Noesis addictiveness but a solid solid speaker with zero distortion and phenomenal dynamic capability.
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Old 08-24-2014, 09:17 PM
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Would someone list like the top sub drivers available for DIY. Unanimous number one would be LMS 5400 yes? 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th...
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Old 08-24-2014, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post
In all cases they weren't being pushed to their limit. I wouldn't say they were loafing along, but definitely not near redline.

The setups that were compared were my 4 LMS's, NB67's 2 dual opposed Dayton's AND dual SubM HP's, and mjaudio's setup which has like 22 subwoofers. He has/had a mixture of 10's, 12's, some Dayton's, some SI's, and a Mal 21, off the top of my head I think that's it. lol
The problem is the magnetic distortion field from all those subwoofers. The sub with the biggest magnet sounds best and all of the others distort due to the big boy magnets being too close. This magnetic distortion field is closely related to the gravity distortion field...you can learn more about it on Wikipedia.
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Old 08-24-2014, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
Would someone list like the top sub drivers available for DIY. Unanimous number one would be LMS 5400 yes? 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th...
I'd say the SI HS24 is hands down the biggest, baddest, best sounding sub I've heard. When we were at Beast's GTG, it bested a pair of my LMS 5400s and we couldn't tell a difference A/Bing them (level matched) until the audio went below 10Hz, which is when the LMS-5400s ran out of gas. Now that was when I only had 2400w on each of my LMS-5400s. I have 4000w now so a pair of LMS-5400s would be a closer fight to the HS24 but I'd probably still give the nod to the HS24, if only below 15Hz. Even better, the HS24 is only $80 more than the LMS-5400 shipped ($999+$5shipping). So if you've got the room, I'd get a pair of HS24s and call the sub system done. Maybe an extra 18 in the back to even out bass response.

Now I haven't listened to the UXL-18 enough to have an opinion on it yet. I'll probably get the pair back from my dad, which would allow me to put the LMS-5400 against the UXL-18 and SI HST-18, which would be a heck of a shootout. All I'd be missing is the new Dayton Ultimax from the big boy DIY 18s. Hmmm....

The FTW-21 should also be thrown in but I haven't heard it so I don't know much about it.

So here's a top 5(or so) in terms of output of the most popular DIY drivers that I've seen.
1. SI HS24
2. FTW-21
3. SI HST-18
3. LMS-5400
3. UXL-18
3/6? Dayton Ultimax 18
7. SI18 in multiples
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Old 08-24-2014, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
The problem is the magnetic distortion field from all those subwoofers. The sub with the biggest magnet sounds best and all of the others distort due to the big boy magnets being too close. This magnetic distortion field is closely related to the gravity distortion field...you can learn more about it on Wikipedia.
Ok well that pretty much explains everything. lol
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Old 08-24-2014, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
I'd say the SI HS24 is hands down the biggest, baddest, best sounding sub I've heard. When we were at Beast's GTG, it bested a pair of my LMS 5400s and we couldn't tell a difference A/Bing them (level matched) until the audio went below 10Hz, which is when the LMS-5400s ran out of gas. Now that was when I only had 2400w on each of my LMS-5400s. I have 4000w now so a pair of LMS-5400s would be a closer fight to the HS24 but I'd probably still give the nod to the HS24, if only below 15Hz. Even better, the HS24 is only $80 more than the LMS-5400 shipped ($999+$5shipping). So if you've got the room, I'd get a pair of HS24s and call the sub system done. Maybe an extra 18 in the back to even out bass response.

Now I haven't listened to the UXL-18 enough to have an opinion on it yet. I'll probably get the pair back from my dad, which would allow me to put the LMS-5400 against the UXL-18 and SI HST-18, which would be a heck of a shootout. All I'd be missing is the new Dayton Ultimax from the big boy DIY 18s. Hmmm....

The FTW-21 should also be thrown in but I haven't heard it so I don't know much about it.

So here's a top 5(or so) in terms of output of the most popular DIY drivers that I've seen.
1. SI HS24
2. FTW-21
3. SI HST-18
3. LMS-5400
3. UXL-18
3/6? Dayton Ultimax 18
7. SI18 in multiples
Is the XXX still available??? If it is lets throw that bad boy in there are well.
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Old 08-24-2014, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post
Is the XXX still available??? If it is lets throw that bad boy in there are well.
I guess the XXX is back and available but I haven't heard if its the same beast it once was or if it has changed. Regarding throwing that bad boy in, the only thing getting thrown would be my back if we're talking the XXX. I guess the XXX must be considered but it requires such a big box for ported or infinite baffle that I've never really given it much thought. But it likely works for someone.
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Old 08-24-2014, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
I guess the XXX is back and available but I haven't heard if its the same beast it once was or if it has changed. Regarding throwing that bad boy in, the only thing getting thrown would be my back if we're talking the XXX. I guess the XXX must be considered but it requires such a big box for ported or infinite baffle that I've never really given it much thought. But it likely works for someone.
Haha! Did you just mention XXX's and big boxes in the same post??

What size box does the SI 24 need again??
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Old 08-24-2014, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
I'd say the SI HS24 is hands down the biggest, baddest, best sounding sub I've heard. When we were at Beast's GTG, it bested a pair of my LMS 5400s and we couldn't tell a difference A/Bing them (level matched) until the audio went below 10Hz, which is when the LMS-5400s ran out of gas. Now that was when I only had 2400w on each of my LMS-5400s. I have 4000w now so a pair of LMS-5400s would be a closer fight to the HS24 but I'd probably still give the nod to the HS24, if only below 15Hz. Even better, the HS24 is only $80 more than the LMS-5400 shipped ($999+$5shipping). So if you've got the room, I'd get a pair of HS24s and call the sub system done. Maybe an extra 18 in the back to even out bass response.

Now I haven't listened to the UXL-18 enough to have an opinion on it yet. I'll probably get the pair back from my dad, which would allow me to put the LMS-5400 against the UXL-18 and SI HST-18, which would be a heck of a shootout. All I'd be missing is the new Dayton Ultimax from the big boy DIY 18s. Hmmm....

The FTW-21 should also be thrown in but I haven't heard it so I don't know much about it.

So here's a top 5(or so) in terms of output of the most popular DIY drivers that I've seen.
1. SI HS24
2. FTW-21
3. SI HST-18
3. LMS-5400
3. UXL-18
3/6? Dayton Ultimax 18
7. SI18 in multiples
Ok, also I have a "flare" for cost effectiveness. Don't get me wrong. A pair of 24's would be sweet! But they need HUGE 10-15ft sealed boxes. Can be done but...I like the performance I get with the dual Submersives for their size. But it would be cool to look at 24's!!! I really like JBrowns build. Thinking a ported setup perhaps...Was Dayton releasing the new 18?

Last edited by jlpowell84; 08-24-2014 at 10:46 PM.
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Old 08-24-2014, 10:41 PM
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Is the XXX still available??? If it is lets throw that bad boy in there are well.
Yes, it is listed on parts express just a hair below 1k
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Old 08-24-2014, 10:50 PM
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The FTW 21 calls for a 6 cu ft sealed on their site...
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Old 08-24-2014, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
Would someone list like the top sub drivers available for DIY. Unanimous number one would be LMS 5400 yes? 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th...

Okay, so since you're talking about ported there's probably no point in considering the SI 24 or even the FTW-21 because both of those drivers require pretty large cabinets. So if we're talking strictly 18's I would rank them like this.


1. LMS-U 5400 ...$925ea.
2. Funk Audio TSAD18v1 driver ...$850ea
3. iST UXL-18 ...$550.00ea
4. SI HST-18, I would probably rate this driver above the UXL-18 but there isn't much feed back on it and pricing hasn't been released. So for now until its a little more proven I'd still rate the UXL-18 higher.
5. Daytona UM18-22 ...$279ea, again this one hasn't been out very long but I already know that Mark Seaton has vouched for it so it's safe to say it must be decent.
6. SI HT18 ...$179ea
7. iST IXL-18 ...$350ea, I'm willing to bet that this would out perform the SI 18 and perform every bit as good as the UM18-22. But for guys south of the border it doesn't really make sense to buy it. But for guys in Canada they'd almost be crazy not too once you factor in cross boarder shipping taxes and currency exchange rate its the same price as the SI 18 and UM18-22.
8. Daytona RSS460HO ...$249.


I know that the stuff from RE Audio is good too but you just don't see it being used as much.
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Old 08-24-2014, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
The FTW 21 calls for a 6 cu ft sealed on their site...
Yeah and 16cu/ft if you wanted to go ported, the SI 24 needs a 32cu/ft ported cabinet!...lol
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Old 08-25-2014, 01:56 AM
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The problem is the magnetic distortion field from all those subwoofers. The sub with the biggest magnet sounds best and all of the others distort due to the big boy magnets being too close.
David,

WTF? Is this a joke?

How are you going to throw something like this out with no backup info or links? What is your physics background? The "biggest" magnet doesn't necessarily mean "strongest" magnet. Is size the issue, or is a stronger magnetic field the issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
This magnetic distortion field is closely related to the gravity distortion field...you can learn more about it on Wikipedia.
Did a wiki search of magnetic distortion field and was able to find this. While I'm not one to dismiss the theory that you proposed, how the hell can you say that magnetic distortion field is altering the performance of anything in anyone's system? Have you even seen @mjaudio system? Or are you just saying that he has so many damn (different) subs that all of the different magnets are fighting each other? How close do magnets have to be to each other for this "distortion" to occur?

Lame post man... You kinda left the science out of your response.

Again, I'm not one to argue with you because I have no idea if/how the "magnetic distortion field" and the "gravity distortion field" effect a drivers performance...my issue is that I don't think you do either.

So either educate us...or leave that extremely technical conjecture at home.



Unless you were just joking with us...In that case I say... You got me!!!
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Old 08-25-2014, 01:58 AM
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David,
Unless you were just joking with us...In that case I say... You got me!!!
Your welcome!
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Old 08-25-2014, 02:06 AM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Your welcome!
Ahhhhh..... I hate you.



That was a good one though. Dammit, now I'm pissed at myself for wasting 15min of my life responding to that post...lol.

David 1 = Austin 0
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Old 08-25-2014, 02:09 AM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post
Ahhhhh..... I hate you.



That was a good one though. Dammit, now I'm pissed at myself for wasting 15min of my life responding to that post...lol.

David 1 = Austin 0
HAHA. That so rarely happens. :PATSBACK:

But you have a nicer system than I do...or you did. Not sure what you actually took over there. And you have/had a nicer ride than I have so I think Austin might have a few more points on the scoreboard.

But give me another month or so and I'll be putting up more points on the scoreboard. SHHH.
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Old 08-25-2014, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post
Haha! Did you just mention XXX's and big boxes in the same post??

What size box does the SI 24 need again??
15 CUFT Sealed or 30CUFT Ported
Mines sealed (see sig)
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Old 08-25-2014, 07:13 AM
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Is this stil the JTR thread or the DIY thread that just went off the rails? Now for some science, the JTR orbit Shifter is one bad a$$ sub!
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Old 08-25-2014, 08:57 AM
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I had a weird thing happen this weekend. I had some friends over and gave up the sweetspot seats to some friends to watch a movie. The wife and I sat in the back row and immediately notice that the surrounds were very loud while the dialog was far less intelligible. Basically I sat though the entire movie uncomfortable with the sound. Yesterday, I checked the speaker levels and the surround levels were off by up to 9 db hot

I looked at the amps and noticed the gains were set to different levels on the surround amps. I re-set them to the "usual" position and everything fell into place. I have no idea (other than teenagers) how they were moved but that it is clearly something that I need to watch for in the future. Makes a case for amps without adjustable gains ...

Opinions are not facts.

Last edited by RMK!; 08-25-2014 at 09:04 AM.
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Old 08-25-2014, 09:01 AM
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Yeah that stinks when that happens RMK! Stuff like that has happened to me before too - something is off, and you only discover it later.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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Old 08-25-2014, 09:17 AM
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Yeah that stinks when that happens RMK! Stuff like that has happened to me before too - something is off, and you only discover it later.
Yeah, the couple had been over before for movies but had not heard the system since the 215RT's. Their discussion on the way home probably went like; wife " wow I didn't think that sounded good, did you? ... husband "really? I thought it sounded great!, I've been thinking we should do something similar" ...

So it goes ...
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Old 08-25-2014, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
I had a weird thing happen this weekend. I had some friends over and gave up the sweetspot seats to some friends to watch a movie. The wife and I sat in the back row and immediately notice that the surrounds were very loud while the dialog was far less intelligible. Basically I sat though the entire movie uncomfortable with the sound. Yesterday, I checked the speaker levels and the surround levels were off by up to 9 db hot

I looked at the amps and noticed the gains were set to different levels on the surround amps. I re-set them to the "usual" position and everything fell into place. I have no idea (other than teenagers) how they were moved but that it is clearly something that I need to watch for in the future. Makes a case for amps without adjustable gains ...
Yea, that bites.

Put some tape over them and they're far less likely to get played with. It may be a case for no gain adjustment on the amps...but a really poor one .
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Old 08-25-2014, 09:44 AM
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I think its a bit early to throw the HST18 in the list, as barely anyone has them and there arent many in the wild that have been tested.
The si24 is for sure the leader in pure performance, SQ is subjective so IMO that should be a moot point for any driver but Dgages list is pretty damn close.

Lots of options for everyone!
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Old 08-25-2014, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
So here's what I learned in the last year related to subwoofers.

1. I want something like the Seaton Submersive because that seems to be a well regarded subwoofer.
2. Oh, I need multiple subs to even out frequency response at multiple positions?
3. The commercial subs cost how much?
4. I bought the LMS-5400 uber subs and heard a few SI18s for 1/3 the cost (2 SI18s to 1 LMS-5400) and I can't tell a sound quality difference. Are you *#&*#)@& kidding me?
5. Good subs should sound similar when EQd similarly...output level at certain frequencies is usually the differentiator, which is why many have so many multiples.
6. As DoubleWing mentioned, you want to spread out your subs around the room as a start for measuring. Middle of each wall in a room might be a good start and then move subs to determine where they fit best in YOUR room.
7. Usually paying more for amps will get you better quality...be careful, many pro amps are LOUD. May or may not affect your situation.
8. I LEARNED A TON ABOUT AUDIO AND ACOUSTICS DOING DIY SUBS AND STILL HAVE A TON MORE TO LEARN.

David
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Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post
I'd have to completely disagree with #4 . There's a couple of local members that have a few of the SI & the Dayton 18in subs in dual opposed cabinets. We all agree that the LMS drivers just sound "cleaner".


Is it the room?? The setup?? Who knows?? So take it for what it's worth. lol
One last comment on this to back up my homie edogg.

NB67 (chayne) and I both agree that the quad LMS Ultra's do sound different then our systems in that there is more detail to the bass. I win the war on SPL and shake factor which is greatly helped by having the system on the second floor. It is probably a tie with Chayne though now that he has added a pair of dual opposed 18" daytons to his Submersive pair but he is on a slab. I think Chaynes new house will have the media room on the second floor so I have to step my game up

I had a pair of sealed LMS Ultra's before and sold them because I wanted more SPL and was a little bummed these expensive drivers didn't give me what I wanted. When edogg added another pair to his set-up to make it quads that's when I had a DOH moment, I wish I would have kept my pair and added another pair. It was a big difference in edogg's system when adding the second pair of LMS, a lot more than I was expecting.
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Old 08-25-2014, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
I had a weird thing happen this weekend. I had some friends over and gave up the sweetspot seats to some friends to watch a movie. The wife and I sat in the back row and immediately notice that the surrounds were very loud while the dialog was far less intelligible. Basically I sat though the entire movie uncomfortable with the sound. Yesterday, I checked the speaker levels and the surround levels were off by up to 9 db hot

I looked at the amps and noticed the gains were set to different levels on the surround amps. I re-set them to the "usual" position and everything fell into place. I have no idea (other than teenagers) how they were moved but that it is clearly something that I need to watch for in the future. Makes a case for amps without adjustable gains …
Only you would hear that. Unless your friends are audio nuts like all of us, my thought is that they thought it was awesome. Early on my 4520 changed settings a couple of times. I remember one time my theater sounded horrible and went in and everything was reset? It has been fine lately.
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Old 08-25-2014, 11:51 AM
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One last comment on this to back up my homie edogg.

NB67 (chayne) and I both agree that the quad LMS Ultra's do sound different then our systems in that there is more detail to the bass. I win the war on SPL and shake factor which is greatly helped by having the system on the second floor. It is probably a tie with Chayne though now that he has added a pair of dual opposed 18" daytons to his Submersive pair but he is on a slab. I think Chaynes new house will have the media room on the second floor so I have to step my game up

I had a pair of sealed LMS Ultra's before and sold them because I wanted more SPL and was a little bummed these expensive drivers didn't give me what I wanted. When edogg added another pair to his set-up to make it quads that's when I had a DOH moment, I wish I would have kept my pair and added another pair. It was a big difference in edogg's system when adding the second pair of LMS, a lot more than I was expecting.
I guess I should say I haven't heard the LMS-5400s in an A/B comparison with anything but the HS24 and it was at a GTG, which wasn't a critical listening comparison. I've heard the SI18s at Coach's and at Beast's and I thought they both sounded great. So while the LMS-5400s might sound better, if you weren't going back and forth between the two, I don't think you'd realize much difference. I bought the LMS-5400s because I wanted the best sounding sub and at the time I thought subs sounded different from each other. They do to an extent but I've also come around greatly to the idea of upper class subs sounding similar if EQ'd similarly. That is my opinion that I will continue to refine but as of now, the subs we are talking about sound similarly to me. I hope that carries through when I do my detailed measuring/testing of the HST-18 against the LMS-5400. Regardless, we are at the 90/95% level where the 5/10% extra performance costs a whole lot more.

Last edited by dgage; 08-25-2014 at 11:55 AM.
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Old 08-25-2014, 12:59 PM
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Well with the suggestion from Carp, I ordered 4 of the Axiom Full Metal Brackets to mount the slanted 8's. A little pricy, but I feel much better with these than the ones I ordered before. I am going to beef up the hardware to mount them, but overall the brackets feel sturdy and I like how they can be adjusted and keep the speaker close to the wall. I hope they hold the weight.
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Old 08-25-2014, 01:13 PM
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Hi guys. Does anyone know if JTR is gunna be at Rocky Mountain Audio Fest this year? I'm finally able to make it there and I'm getting excited. Is Jeff planning on having a booth there?

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Old 08-25-2014, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reddig View Post
Hi guys. Does anyone know if JTR is gunna be at Rocky Mountain Audio Fest this year? I'm finally able to make it there and I'm getting excited. Is Jeff planning on having a booth there?
I know that dessertdome posted a little while back that JTR will be there, so unless somethings changed I would think so.
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