Official JTR speaker thread - Page 748 - AVS Forum
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post #22411 of 22429 Old Yesterday, 04:19 PM
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Seanile, aren't your speakers the older version? pre 2009?
Yes, older version. Bought in late 2008.
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post #22412 of 22429 Old Yesterday, 04:20 PM
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What is the highest a JTR S2 sub can play. In other words could I cross from my 212s to the S2s....at 120HZ?? 150HZ??? I currently cross at 100HZ but am willing to cross higher if the S2 can play efficiently in that space. The JTR site quotes the S2 to 22 to 104HZ so that is why I picked 100HZ but was wondering if anybody had any different data or if that 104HZ sounds right to folks.

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post #22413 of 22429 Old Yesterday, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
What is the highest a JTR S2 sub can play. In other words could I cross from my 212s to the S2s....at 120HZ?? 150HZ??? I currently cross at 100HZ but am willing to cross higher if the S2 can play efficiently in that space. The JTR site quotes the S2 to 22 to 104HZ so that is why I picked 100HZ but was wondering if anybody had any different data or if that 104HZ sounds right to folks.
Use your ears or take measurements would be my suggestion regardless of what the specs say IMO.

Everyone is different and the only thing that truly matters is if you are happy with the sound!

I'm sure it extends beyond the 104hz spec but by how much and how fast it rolls off is another story. It could roll off just right to mix with your LCRs at 110, 120, 130, etc... That's where a graph would help let you understand what you're hearing.

But, let's see someone post up an in room graph from aprox 3 meters to give him an answer that would be close to accurate.
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post #22414 of 22429 Old Yesterday, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Well I really like the 212HT-LP above 200Hz but I didn't spend $2000+ on each speaker with a pair of 12" woofers to play from 200Hz above. Unlike you I didn't think I would originally need midbass modules and don't have an easy way to integrate them.

Comparing my 212HT-LPs to the Cat12s at Coach's made it seem like the 212s were crossed over much higher than they were. The Cats had plenty of midbass and that was with just a little EQ to try to get the 212, Cat12, and 215HT, in the same EQ neighborhood to go along with the same output level.

Comparing my 212s against the Danley SH50s that I heard at Beast's back in April, it was like I brought a knife into a gun fight when comparing the midbass.

I just went got back from picking up my equipment at Coach's. I'll go outside and measure my 212 in the next couple hours.
Looks to me like your choice is clear, sell them and move on to something else. If you're anything like me (and you sure seem to be) it will drive you insane to the point it all you can think about in the HT.
I ALWAYS wanted exactly what the 215's offer me, I had the same gripe with the 212's as you did and was one of the first to point it out when I got mine. Sure going from the ported T12's to the sealed 212's didn't make my situation better but I know exactly how you feel.

I loved the cat12's but found IMO they had the same shortcomings as the 212's did. The Danley50's were not at my place but although like you, I felt they had the best midbass of the bunch, they still didn;t even come close to my 212's and the 2242's in terms of sheer fun and chest impact. Man they kicked the crap outta you but again, it's just me personal taste but I feel we look for similar qualitys.,

Thats what makes me smile about the 215's, Jeff made my dream speaker!

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #22415 of 22429 Old Yesterday, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
Looks to me like your choice is clear, sell them and move on to something else. If you're anything like me (and you sure seem to be) it will drive you insane to the point it all you can think about in the HT.
I ALWAYS wanted exactly what the 215's offer me, I had the same gripe with the 212's as you did and was one of the first to point it out when I got mine. Sure going from the ported T12's to the sealed 212's didn't make my situation better but I know exactly how you feel.

I loved the cat12's but found IMO they had the same shortcomings as the 212's did. The Danley50's were not at my place but although like you, I felt they had the best midbass of the bunch, they still didn;t even come close to my 212's and the 2242's in terms of sheer fun and chest impact. Man they kicked the crap outta you but again, it's just me personal taste but I feel we look for similar qualitys.,

Thats what makes me smile about the 215's, Jeff made my dream speaker!
I think a lot of this has to do with the room and listening position. With my room and MLP, I favor the Cat-12's mid bass over the 215's. The 215's sounded amazing in that area as I moved back from the MLP.

Great thing about the hobby, everybody has different tastes.
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post #22416 of 22429 Old Yesterday, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post
I think a lot of this has to do with the room and listening position. With my room and MLP, I favor the Cat-12's mid bass over the 215's. The 215's sounded amazing in that area as I moved back from the MLP.

Great thing about the hobby, everybody has different tastes.
Coach, are you listening to the Cat12's in the standard DSP mode or the optional one that Mark offers?

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post #22417 of 22429 Old Yesterday, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
What is the highest a JTR S2 sub can play. In other words could I cross from my 212s to the S2s....at 120HZ?? 150HZ??? I currently cross at 100HZ but am willing to cross higher if the S2 can play efficiently in that space. The JTR site quotes the S2 to 22 to 104HZ so that is why I picked 100HZ but was wondering if anybody had any different data or if that 104HZ sounds right to folks.
They will play up to 120 Hz, but start to rolloff fairly quickly. The 212's sound better from 70-80Hz and up than the S2's do. You are better off crossing over at around 80 Hz. The receiver's crossover, combined with the natural rolloff above 120 Hz of the S2, makes for too steep of an overall slope to use such a high crossover.
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post #22418 of 22429 Old Yesterday, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Well I really like the 212HT-LP above 200Hz but I didn't spend $2000+ on each speaker with a pair of 12" woofers to play from 200Hz above. Unlike you I didn't think I would originally need midbass modules and don't have an easy way to integrate them.

Comparing my 212HT-LPs to the Cat12s at Coach's made it seem like the 212s were crossed over much higher than they were. The Cats had plenty of midbass and that was with just a little EQ to try to get the 212, Cat12, and 215HT, in the same EQ neighborhood to go along with the same output level.

Comparing my 212s against the Danley SH50s that I heard at Beast's back in April, it was like I brought a knife into a gun fight when comparing the midbass.

I just went got back from picking up my equipment at Coach's. I'll go outside and measure my 212 in the next couple hours.
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
Looks to me like your choice is clear, sell them and move on to something else. If you're anything like me (and you sure seem to be) it will drive you insane to the point it all you can think about in the HT.
I ALWAYS wanted exactly what the 215's offer me, I had the same gripe with the 212's as you did and was one of the first to point it out when I got mine. Sure going from the ported T12's to the sealed 212's didn't make my situation better but I know exactly how you feel.

I loved the cat12's but found IMO they had the same shortcomings as the 212's did. The Danley50's were not at my place but although like you, I felt they had the best midbass of the bunch, they still didn;t even come close to my 212's and the 2242's in terms of sheer fun and chest impact. Man they kicked the crap outta you but again, it's just me personal taste but I feel we look for similar qualitys.,

Thats what makes me smile about the 215's, Jeff made my dream speaker!
David, I know the general mid bass 212 issues people have had. But don't you have a serious room mode in the mid bass frequency? Even a better mid bass speaker placed in the same position will have the same issues. You are a handy guy. Set your mind to it and build your own treatments. You can do it in a weekend. Good ol pink fluffy has some of the best absorption at 9 inches thick and over due to the porous calculator. Get some corner soffit bass traps style if you can, or triangular second. Then get some reflection panels up. I was pleasantly surprised at the 60hz up effects just my reflection panels had in the room. Took a 120hz null completely out. Number one is dealing with that null. That is if I am remembering your graphs right...
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post #22419 of 22429 Old Yesterday, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
They will play up to 120 Hz, but start to rolloff fairly quickly. The 212's sound better from 70-80Hz and up than the S2's do. You are better off crossing over at around 80 Hz. The receiver's crossover, combined with the natural rolloff above 120 Hz of the S2, makes for too steep of an overall slope to use such a high crossover.


??????




more info please?

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post #22420 of 22429 Old Yesterday, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
David, I know the general mid bass 212 issues people have had. But don't you have a serious room mode in the mid bass frequency? Even a better mid bass speaker placed in the same position will have the same issues. You are a handy guy. Set your mind to it and build your own treatments. You can do it in a weekend. Good ol pink fluffy has some of the best absorption at 9 inches thick and over due to the porous calculator. Get some corner soffit bass traps style if you can, or triangular second. Then get some reflection panels up. I was pleasantly surprised at the 60hz up effects just my reflection panels had in the room. Took a 120hz null completely out. Number one is dealing with that null. That is if I am remembering your graphs right...
I know you keep saying that but I'm not convinced. In my room in the front left, front right, and center positions PLUS Coach's center channel position; there are major drops below 100Hz.

Oh yeah, the measurements thing. I'm working on some treatments, printed some artwork with Spoonflower that I'll use to make some Rockboard 60 treatments on the walls and that should be here in the next 7-10 days. We will likely come up with something for the front wall and ceiling but likely won't install bass traps in the corner but who knows. The main issue is that I have a living room theater that I have put a lot of work into to make the speakers somewhat stealth...except for the 212s on the front left and right.

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post #22421 of 22429 Old Yesterday, 06:30 PM
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So I spent an hour and a half moving equipment outside and back inside to take about 3 minutes worth of measurements. I'm hot, tired, and my mood hasn't gotten any better.

Signal chain:

  • HP 8570w laptop running the latest Room EQ Wizard beta (what I've been using for months for measurements)
  • Sherbourn PT-7030 preamp (crossovers set at 40Hz; no PEQ)
  • Outlaw 755 - 300w at 4 ohms
  • JTR 212 HT-LP
  • MiniDSP UMIK-1 with manufacturer's calibration file

Setup - I put the 212 on a board on the edge of the trampoline facing slightly up and overlooking the hill in my yard. I had the mic coming from above the speaker hanging down in front of the horn, 3 feet in front of the speaker.

So here's the graph at 1/12 smoothing. If someone wants the graph in a different format, let me know.

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File Type: jpg 212htlp_outside.jpg (80.8 KB, 64 views)

Last edited by dgage; Yesterday at 06:36 PM.
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post #22422 of 22429 Old Yesterday, 06:40 PM
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dgage,

That graph looks pretty much within spec: +/-3dB down to 90hz.


You might ask Jeff if that's what he'd expect below 100hz. Since his spec actually reads 70hz and up.
http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/noesis-212ht-lp/










Regardless, here's what I dont' understand:

The 212HT, even sealed are sooooooooooooooooooo incredibly capable - just EQ in the midbass you want. With the amount of headroom, you should be able to pretty much do any EQ curve you possibly could want for inside home theater use.
Want 12db more at 200hz??? no problem add it....


You have like 30 dB of headroom OVER reference level to play with!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!?!?! (JTR website says 134dB usable, and 137dB with 3dB of compression. By contrast at reference the mains only require 105dB at your listening position.)
Get a bigger amp - when you start boosting bass a lot - 300watts isn't going to cut it. The 212 compression driver is amazing, I'd hate to ditch that if I had it - so instead - just put those dual 12 inch woofers to work. There is no way they should disappoint with some EQ work. Honestly, do you even see the 212HT 12" woofer moving? if you don't - realize it CAN and DOES move - 8mm xmax each way...


If I were you - before I sell the 212HT - I buy one of these for a 150 bucks - and play - and see what you are really looking for. The 212HT is a fabulous speaker.









http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/FBQ3102.aspx
https://www.google.com/search?q=Behr...dress&tbm=shop
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File Type: jpg 212htlp_outside.jpg (77.2 KB, 60 views)
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post #22423 of 22429 Old Yesterday, 07:12 PM
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My thinking is very similar to yours Archaea. I have more work to do before I throw in the towel but so far I haven't been able to add enough boost to the 212s with the MiniDSP. Maybe with the 10 PEQs of the PT-7030 and the 10 PEQs of the MiniDSP I'll be able to get it the way I want but so far it hasn't happened. I'm also considering buying Jriver with Audiolense room correction and maybe that can do some between signal-fu than I've been able to.

I was even at Coach's and joked about throwing on 10DB of boost on the 212s in the midbass region...and the measurement line barely moved. And that was with Coach's 800w Sunfire so my idea of throwing a D-Sonic at it doesn't seem too promising.

I don't want to say anything to Jeff until I've done more and have more measurements. But what I just measured confirms my in-room playing and appalls me that a pair of 12" woofers don't do more below 100Hz, even simply out of the box. I shouldn't have to go through such herculean efforts to get some output between 80 and 100Hz. Listening to my 212 against the Cat12 and 215RM made the 212 sound like a 3" Bose speaker...I'm not being overly dramatic here, it was seriously night and day...you knew immediately the 212 didn't belong in that fight. Now don't get me wrong, I really like the 212 from 200Hz on up, even better than the Cat12 (haven't heard Coach's final calibration yet) and even better than the 215RT/RM (fully calibrated) but I didn't spend $2000+ on each speaker to play them from 150/200Hz on up.
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post #22424 of 22429 Old Yesterday, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
So I spent an hour and a half moving equipment outside and back inside to take about 3 minutes worth of measurements. I'm hot, tired, and my mood hasn't gotten any better.

Signal chain:

  • HP 8570w laptop running the latest Room EQ Wizard beta (what I've been using for months for measurements)
  • Sherbourn PT-7030 preamp (crossovers set at 40Hz; no PEQ)
  • Outlaw 755 - 300w at 4 ohms
  • JTR 212 HT-LP
  • MiniDSP UMIK-1 with manufacturer's calibration file
Setup - I put the 212 on a board on the edge of the trampoline facing slightly up and overlooking the hill in my yard. I had the mic coming from above the speaker hanging down in front of the horn, 3 feet in front of the speaker.

So here's the graph at 1/12 smoothing. If someone wants the graph in a different format, let me know.

Here are my 212HT measurements
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 91849f4f_Tech_R5.jpg (83.3 KB, 33 views)

JTR Noesis 212HT x 3 (LCR) powered by Lab Gruppen 10000Q amp
CHT SHO-10 x 4 (sides and rear) powered by Denon 4311
JTR S2 x 2
CHT 18.1 x2
Oppo BDP103D bluray player/Sonos/PS3
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post #22425 of 22429 Old Yesterday, 08:12 PM
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Here are my 212HT measurements
Are you sure our speakers are even in the same family? I'm planning to measure the other 2 212HT-LPs when I get a chance.
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post #22426 of 22429 Old Yesterday, 08:23 PM
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Are you sure our speakers are even in the same family? I'm planning to measure the other 2 212HT-LPs when I get a chance.
Ooops. They were in the same folder and I posted the wrong FR graphs. Those are for the M2.

Here are the JTR ones. Realize that I have a major highway near me and you need to interpret the measurements, particularly the LF part, in that light. Best I can do at my house.
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File Type: jpg JTR 5-8 FR curves.jpg (112.7 KB, 21 views)

JTR Noesis 212HT x 3 (LCR) powered by Lab Gruppen 10000Q amp
CHT SHO-10 x 4 (sides and rear) powered by Denon 4311
JTR S2 x 2
CHT 18.1 x2
Oppo BDP103D bluray player/Sonos/PS3
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post #22427 of 22429 Old Yesterday, 09:25 PM
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After carefully putting t-nuts in all eight subwoofer enclosures tonight, which took a few hours, (drilled 64 holes incrementally larger till I hit 1/4, then painted around the holes, then drove in each of the t-nuts with no sub in place, backing out each bolt after the t-nut was tight - - - it occurred to me that some may think there are too big of profit of margins on DIY stuff. (in relation to the recent conversation about a new ID product based on the ultimax driver in this thread) After spending several hours, on multiple days, and not even getting the drivers in there yet...my opinion - no way.

Before tonight, I'd already spent multiple hours; unboxing the cabs, shopping for parts both online and at home depot, putting the feet on the boxes, unboxing and quality checking the eight subs by running 20hz sine waves through them one at a time in free air for a short bit.
I still have stuff the cabs with polyfill, assemble and mount the back plates with ring terminals and spade connectors, cut 10 gauge wire, wire back plates, wire subs, put subs in boxes, bolt subs into box.
So - - - I've still got a lot of time to sink to finish this project - then if you are selling them, you've got to box them back up too and get them shipped out.
All while answering e-mails, questions, sales related and warranty related, having a presence on the forum - etc.


The job of 'making' a subwoofer takes more time and energy than many people think about --- including myself!





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File Type: jpg Sni-A-Bar-20140821-00340.jpg (293.8 KB, 26 views)
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post #22428 of 22429 Old Yesterday, 09:56 PM
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Jonathan, so what you're saying is that you're not going to start a DIY sub company now?....lol


Can't say that I blame you...lol

My Gear:

JTR Noesis 228HT (LCR)
Axiom Audio QS8 surrounds
Sherbourn PA 7-350
Pioneer VSX-21TXH
JVC RS45
Falcon Screens FVHD105
Dual PSA XS30's (gone but not forgotten)
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post #22429 of 22429 Old Yesterday, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Ooops. They were in the same folder and I posted the wrong FR graphs. Those are for the M2.
Why you little....I outta...

Quote:
Here are the JTR ones. Realize that I have a major highway near me and you need to interpret the measurements, particularly the LF part, in that light. Best I can do at my house.
I buy that those are closer but still, how the hell do you get that type of extension? I could only dream.
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