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post #22501 of 24811 Old 08-24-2014, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by rangers View Post
All this DIY sub talk is starting to get to me. However, there are so many different builds that i wouldn't know which ones to focus on.
Is there a build with similar output of an S2 in a similar size enclosure? You can PM me if you want.
I owned the S2 for 6 months and it is a fine sub, but you are much better off doing two separate sealed single driver enclosures for acoustical reasons.

Dual UXL's below 20 Hz are slightly better to S2 by a smidgen.......but then again, being able to split drivers may be real cause.

Where dual UXL's out perform S2 completely is above 60 Hz......as much as 3-4 db's. Both S2 and dual UXL's sound very similar.......would be hard to tell difference between two in side by side testing.
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post #22502 of 24811 Old 08-24-2014, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
Rob, are you ok? I know you close to Napa. Did you get caught in the quake?
No, I'm not that close and didn't even feel it . Friends in Napa have some damage but pretty minor. I work with the Superior Court in Napa and they are in an old "historic" building that may have been damaged as downtown Napa sustained the most damage. Will know more on Monday.

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post #22503 of 24811 Old 08-24-2014, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Dave once you go down the DIY road you can kiss that Triax goodbye!…lol
I would not say that. The Triax is an amazing sub and the two together have tremendous output. I actually think they are a pretty good value for what they do. I think If I demoed them in my room to anyone, they would be shocked. They just sound so good, no flaws that I can hear, smooth as silk. I have not made up my mind yet, I am just having thoughts, this will all come to head as soon as I am set up with the new mains. I just think that ported subs would blend better with the 215's than the sealed, but again that is to be determined. I have had a few thoughts, one was a pair of the new Seatons subs or a pair of ported Caps or just DIY. As I have said in the past, to date, the Triax's are the best subs I have had yet and I am very happy with them. Like I said I am jumping heading of myself here. For the size of the room I am going into, I may need no subs at all. I may not even go with the 215's at all in that room yet. I can say this, if I don't like the 215's in my theater, they will be going in the living room and the 212's will go right in the theater with the Triax's.

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post #22504 of 24811 Old 08-24-2014, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post
I owned the S2 for 6 months and it is a fine sub, but you are much better off doing two separate sealed single driver enclosures for acoustical reasons.

Dual UXL's below 20 Hz are slightly better to S2 by a smidgen.......but then again, being able to split drivers may be real cause.

Where dual UXL's out perform S2 completely is above 60 Hz......as much as 3-4 db's. Both S2 and dual UXL's sound very similar.......would be hard to tell difference between two in side by side testing.
So here's what I learned in the last year related to subwoofers.

1. I want something like the Seaton Submersive because that seems to be a well regarded subwoofer.
2. Oh, I need multiple subs to even out frequency response at multiple positions?
3. The commercial subs cost how much?
4. I bought the LMS-5400 uber subs and heard a few SI18s for 1/3 the cost (2 SI18s to 1 LMS-5400) and I can't tell a sound quality difference. Are you *#&*#)@& kidding me?
5. Good subs should sound similar when EQd similarly...output level at certain frequencies is usually the differentiator, which is why many have so many multiples.
6. As DoubleWing mentioned, you want to spread out your subs around the room as a start for measuring. Middle of each wall in a room might be a good start and then move subs to determine where they fit best in YOUR room.
7. Usually paying more for amps will get you better quality...be careful, many pro amps are LOUD. May or may not affect your situation.
8. I LEARNED A TON ABOUT AUDIO AND ACOUSTICS DOING DIY SUBS AND STILL HAVE A TON MORE TO LEARN.

David
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post #22505 of 24811 Old 08-24-2014, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
No, I'm not that close and didn't even feel it . Friends in Napa have some damage but pretty minor. I work with the Superior Court in Napa and they are in an old "historic" building that may have been damaged as downtown Napa sustained the most damage. Will know more on Monday.
That's good to hear I put on Fox news around 8 am and thought of you when I seen the epicenter on the map.
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post #22506 of 24811 Old 08-24-2014, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by rhed View Post
Can someone explain to me this? Up late at night to work on hanging the three more slanted 8's. As i grab the last s8 to be hung I hear a very faint buzz when I put my ear up close. And it wasn't even hung or connected yet.. Lol.. Though it's not a problem for me. Can't hear it at a foot away. I just thought that is weird..lol
Might be induction from an external EM field.
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post #22507 of 24811 Old 08-24-2014, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
Dang! Thats a serious curve!!! Is that the one Jeff left in place for you?
Partially but once Jeff and Desertdome left I tweaked things to my preferences . I guess I screwed up the HTPC multichannel JRiver configuration DD left me and now use the Rane exclusively for everything except 2 channel. When I have some time (like 5 years from now ) I will jump back into the JRiver settings.

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post #22508 of 24811 Old 08-24-2014, 09:25 AM
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Has anybody tried the 210's yet? Based on the specs they seem pretty solid performers. Would be interested in how they compare with the 212's for music. Both require subs, but it seems the 210's could be crossed significantly lower for music (say 40 Hz) which MAY make the soundfield more seamless with less overall tweaking. Cost is about the same.

Current Gear: PJ – BenQ PE7700; Receiver - Onkyo TX-SR805; Blu Ray - OppoBDP 103; Turntable - Dual CS-515 w/ Ortofon Super OM10; Amplifiers - OdysseyKhartago, Adcom GFA555, QSC RMX 1850HD; PEQ - Behringer FBD2496 [Near FieldSub], miniDSP 2×4 [Flanking Subs], REW; Speakers - 4 Pi (w/B&C DE250/JBL2226H) × 3 [LCR], Yamaha Crap × 2 [surrounds], Exodus Audio Maelstrom-X18" sealed sub [near field sub], LAB-12 based ported sub tuned to 22 Hz x2 [flanking subs, XO set at 40 Hz]
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post #22509 of 24811 Old 08-24-2014, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by NWCgrad View Post
Has anybody tried the 210's yet? Based on the specs they seem pretty solid performers. Would be interested in how they compare with the 212's for music. Both require subs, but it seems the 210's could be crossed significantly lower for music (say 40 Hz) which MAY make the soundfield more seamless with less overall tweaking. Cost is about the same.
There are a few guy on facebook who have them that are JTR friends. If I ever do another upstairs HT, thats what I'm gonna get in a classy finish.

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post #22510 of 24811 Old 08-24-2014, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
I would not say that. The Triax is an amazing sub and the two together have tremendous output. I actually think they are a pretty good value for what they do. I think If I demoed them in my room to anyone, they would be shocked. They just sound so good, no flaws that I can hear, smooth as silk. I have not made up my mind yet, I am just having thoughts, this will all come to head as soon as I am set up with the new mains. I just think that ported subs would blend better with the 215's than the sealed, but again that is to be determined. I have had a few thoughts, one was a pair of the new Seatons subs or a pair of ported Caps or just DIY. As I have said in the past, to date, the Triax's are the best subs I have had yet and I am very happy with them. Like I said I am jumping heading of myself here. For the size of the room I am going into, I may need no subs at all. I may not even go with the 215's at all in that room yet. I can say this, if I don't like the 215's in my theater, they will be going in the living room and the 212's will go right in the theater with the Triax's.
i know it may sound crazy, but JBrown is right. I was once in the "theres no way" crowd. It's got nothing to do with the Triax's being bad in any way at all, In fact they, from what I hear are amazing, it's just that for the money, you could walk all over them in performance.
For 3K, you could build the same style box with 3 x UXL's ( or even UM18's ) and a clone amp and still have money left over, your performance would double and even triple what the triax could do. Most guys (including myself) don't need the subs to be furniture quality and thats where a lot of the savings comes in. Also, we can use better drivers than what they offer and way more power is needed, pro amps are plentiful and there are TONS of awesome options vs plate amps.

DIY is all about performance and getting a design to fit where you need it to go, not the other way around. You can design a sub to fit your needs, not buy a sub and make it work.

I at one point in time had 4 x paradigm servo 15v2's.... I though there was no way they could be beat in terms of sheer performance but when I built my first giant ported boxes, 1 x 18 in it's 13 CF box outgunned all 4 servo 15's! LOL It was then, that my entire view on the subject changed and I've never bought a pre-made sub in the last 10 years... and to this dats have built around 100 subs ( usually get new drivers, build them and sell them of give to friends because I enjoy doing it)
Although since we had my daughter, i haven't really had much time but then again, I'm happy enough with my theater that I'm not worried about changing anything. ( until atmos, then I'll add more speakers lol)

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post #22511 of 24811 Old 08-24-2014, 11:55 AM
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i know it may sound crazy, but JBrown is right. I was once in the "theres no way" crowd. It's got nothing to do with the Triax's being bad in any way at all, In fact they, from what I hear are amazing, it's just that for the money, you could walk all over them in performance.
For 3K, you could build the same style box with 3 x UXL's ( or even UM18's ) and a clone amp and still have money left over, your performance would double and even triple what the triax could do. Most guys (including myself) don't need the subs to be furniture quality and thats where a lot of the savings comes in. Also, we can use better drivers than what they offer and way more power is needed, pro amps are plentiful and there are TONS of awesome options vs plate amps.

DIY is all about performance and getting a design to fit where you need it to go, not the other way around. You can design a sub to fit your needs, not buy a sub and make it work.

I at one point in time had 4 x paradigm servo 15v2's.... I though there was no way they could be beat in terms of sheer performance but when I built my first giant ported boxes, 1 x 18 in it's 13 CF box outgunned all 4 servo 15's! LOL It was then, that my entire view on the subject changed and I've never bought a pre-made sub in the last 10 years... and to this dats have built around 100 subs ( usually get new drivers, build them and sell them of give to friends because I enjoy doing it)
Although since we had my daughter, i haven't really had much time but then again, I'm happy enough with my theater that I'm not worried about changing anything. ( until atoms, then I'll add more speakers lol)
I totally agree. I don't think it is crazy at all, I have seen and heard many DIY subs. I hang with the NE GTG group for Pete sakes LOL. I mean I have heard and see it all. I do have an early plan right now to build a couple of ported boxes. Waiting on details and the subs.
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post #22512 of 24811 Old 08-24-2014, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
I totally agree. I don't think it is crazy at all, I have seen and heard many DIY subs. I hang with the NE GTG group for Pete sakes LOL. I mean I have heard and see it all. I do have an early plan right now to build a couple of ported boxes. Waiting on details and the subs.
Oh ya? what are your thoughs on the ported boxes so far, drivers, amps? I'm always interested!

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post #22513 of 24811 Old 08-24-2014, 02:54 PM
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Oh ya? what are your thoughs on the ported boxes so far, drivers, amps? I'm always interested!
2X SI HST 18", I would imagine a Peavey IPR 7500. I am going to work with Andrew and see what he comes up with.

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post #22514 of 24811 Old 08-24-2014, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
So here's what I learned in the last year related to subwoofers.

1. I want something like the Seaton Submersive because that seems to be a well regarded subwoofer.
2. Oh, I need multiple subs to even out frequency response at multiple positions?
3. The commercial subs cost how much?
4. I bought the LMS-5400 uber subs and heard a few SI18s for 1/3 the cost (2 SI18s to 1 LMS-5400) and I can't tell a sound quality difference. Are you *#&*#)@& kidding me?
5. Good subs should sound similar when EQd similarly...output level at certain frequencies is usually the differentiator, which is why many have so many multiples.
6. As DoubleWing mentioned, you want to spread out your subs around the room as a start for measuring. Middle of each wall in a room might be a good start and then move subs to determine where they fit best in YOUR room.
7. Usually paying more for amps will get you better quality...be careful, many pro amps are LOUD. May or may not affect your situation.
8. I LEARNED A TON ABOUT AUDIO AND ACOUSTICS DOING DIY SUBS AND STILL HAVE A TON MORE TO LEARN.

David
I'd have to completely disagree with #4 . There's a couple of local members that have a few of the SI & the Dayton 18in subs in dual opposed cabinets. We all agree that the LMS drivers just sound "cleaner".


Is it the room?? The setup?? Who knows?? So take it for what it's worth. lol
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post #22515 of 24811 Old 08-24-2014, 06:39 PM
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I'd have to completely disagree with #4 . There's a couple of local members that have a few of the SI & the Dayton 18in subs in dual opposed cabinets. We all agree that the LMS drivers just sound "cleaner".

Is it the room?? The setup?? Who knows?? So take it for what it's worth. lol
Were they both being pushed or were they loafing? How many of each were compared? I have to say that I haven't A/B'd any subs directly against the LMS-5400s besides the HS-24 and those were very similar with the exception of the HS-24 digging deeper. I'm about to compare a pair of LMS-5400s against a pair of SI HST-18s in a no-holds barred, knock-down, drag-out fight....if my wife let's me turn the volume up that loud. And by about to...I mean in the next few weeks.
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post #22516 of 24811 Old 08-24-2014, 07:10 PM
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Were they both being pushed or were they loafing? How many of each were compared? I have to say that I haven't A/B'd any subs directly against the LMS-5400s besides the HS-24 and those were very similar with the exception of the HS-24 digging deeper. I'm about to compare a pair of LMS-5400s against a pair of SI HST-18s in a no-holds barred, knock-down, drag-out fight....if my wife let's me turn the volume up that loud. And by about to...I mean in the next few weeks.
In all cases they weren't being pushed to their limit. I wouldn't say they were loafing along, but definitely not near redline.

The setups that were compared were my 4 LMS's, NB67's 2 dual opposed Dayton's AND dual SubM HP's, and mjaudio's setup which has like 22 subwoofers. He has/had a mixture of 10's, 12's, some Dayton's, some SI's, and a Mal 21, off the top of my head I think that's it. lol
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post #22517 of 24811 Old 08-24-2014, 07:25 PM
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Woah! Eric is back from where ever you were when you weren't here hahaha!

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #22518 of 24811 Old 08-24-2014, 07:28 PM
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Woah! Eric is back from where ever you were when you weren't here hahaha!
Hahaha!

I've been around, mostly lurking and taking in all the 215 chatter.
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post #22519 of 24811 Old 08-24-2014, 07:59 PM
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An observation here about the recent discussion of room sizes and reference and different MV listening levels for movies. I recently stated we averaged probably -17 on movies. Thats with creeping to -19 or -20 at times it was extremely loud on some movies if needed. I bought a Ben Q 1070 projector to "get aquatinted" and try out DLP technology. Future PJ is undecided. Certainly lots of fun and a huge viewing size is much better. We have a screen coming on Wednesday, sorry guys I did not opt for AT. I know I know, probably regret it...But my center CD sits collarbone height right now as I type. I could have got the AT from same company for a tiny bit more but wasn't sure about the weave. Could of done Falcon material but honestly I buckled to the ease of already done. I plan on attaching a couple pieces of 1x3's (guess at this point) or something vertically. Then attaching the brackets that are made to bolt to the TV to the wood and hanging the screen on the neck/TV mount bracket system of the stand. So instead of picking up the tv and hanging on the mount it will be a 100 inch screen Sitting distance is 9ft Anyways we have watched 4-5 movies and the least loudest has been -14 and up to -8 on the MV. My only guess here is that the glass surface of my Panasonic plasma was causing reflections. Just a white sheet hanging now from the ceiling in front of the TV. Not much absorption but it's my only logical guess. Anyway...the last few posts have me wondering about selling dual 2400 Submersives about a yr old pair and going for the JBrown ported special!!! and then some!
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post #22520 of 24811 Old 08-24-2014, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by mankite

Any updates on your comparisions between the triple 12LF'S and the new triple 8's RMK???


I ran out of gas this weekend and concentrated on getting them setup as surrounds and did not do a comparison. I can say that the 8's sound fantastic with MC music and I think they would do a great job as LCR speakers in just about any space. The 12LF's have an extension and SPL advantage but with good subs and in most rooms, I'm thinking they would be comparable. More great speakers from JTR.

I have the 8's on top of my GIK Pillar Traps but this is a temp setup as I will be wall mounting them.

Yep I can agree Maybe not the dream speaker and doesn't have the Noesis addictiveness but a solid solid speaker with zero distortion and phenomenal dynamic capability.
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post #22521 of 24811 Old 08-24-2014, 08:17 PM
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Would someone list like the top sub drivers available for DIY. Unanimous number one would be LMS 5400 yes? 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th...
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Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post
In all cases they weren't being pushed to their limit. I wouldn't say they were loafing along, but definitely not near redline.

The setups that were compared were my 4 LMS's, NB67's 2 dual opposed Dayton's AND dual SubM HP's, and mjaudio's setup which has like 22 subwoofers. He has/had a mixture of 10's, 12's, some Dayton's, some SI's, and a Mal 21, off the top of my head I think that's it. lol
The problem is the magnetic distortion field from all those subwoofers. The sub with the biggest magnet sounds best and all of the others distort due to the big boy magnets being too close. This magnetic distortion field is closely related to the gravity distortion field...you can learn more about it on Wikipedia.
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post #22523 of 24811 Old 08-24-2014, 09:00 PM
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Would someone list like the top sub drivers available for DIY. Unanimous number one would be LMS 5400 yes? 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th...
I'd say the SI HS24 is hands down the biggest, baddest, best sounding sub I've heard. When we were at Beast's GTG, it bested a pair of my LMS 5400s and we couldn't tell a difference A/Bing them (level matched) until the audio went below 10Hz, which is when the LMS-5400s ran out of gas. Now that was when I only had 2400w on each of my LMS-5400s. I have 4000w now so a pair of LMS-5400s would be a closer fight to the HS24 but I'd probably still give the nod to the HS24, if only below 15Hz. Even better, the HS24 is only $80 more than the LMS-5400 shipped ($999+$5shipping). So if you've got the room, I'd get a pair of HS24s and call the sub system done. Maybe an extra 18 in the back to even out bass response.

Now I haven't listened to the UXL-18 enough to have an opinion on it yet. I'll probably get the pair back from my dad, which would allow me to put the LMS-5400 against the UXL-18 and SI HST-18, which would be a heck of a shootout. All I'd be missing is the new Dayton Ultimax from the big boy DIY 18s. Hmmm....

The FTW-21 should also be thrown in but I haven't heard it so I don't know much about it.

So here's a top 5(or so) in terms of output of the most popular DIY drivers that I've seen.
1. SI HS24
2. FTW-21
3. SI HST-18
3. LMS-5400
3. UXL-18
3/6? Dayton Ultimax 18
7. SI18 in multiples
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post #22524 of 24811 Old 08-24-2014, 09:22 PM
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The problem is the magnetic distortion field from all those subwoofers. The sub with the biggest magnet sounds best and all of the others distort due to the big boy magnets being too close. This magnetic distortion field is closely related to the gravity distortion field...you can learn more about it on Wikipedia.
Ok well that pretty much explains everything. lol
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post #22525 of 24811 Old 08-24-2014, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
I'd say the SI HS24 is hands down the biggest, baddest, best sounding sub I've heard. When we were at Beast's GTG, it bested a pair of my LMS 5400s and we couldn't tell a difference A/Bing them (level matched) until the audio went below 10Hz, which is when the LMS-5400s ran out of gas. Now that was when I only had 2400w on each of my LMS-5400s. I have 4000w now so a pair of LMS-5400s would be a closer fight to the HS24 but I'd probably still give the nod to the HS24, if only below 15Hz. Even better, the HS24 is only $80 more than the LMS-5400 shipped ($999+$5shipping). So if you've got the room, I'd get a pair of HS24s and call the sub system done. Maybe an extra 18 in the back to even out bass response.

Now I haven't listened to the UXL-18 enough to have an opinion on it yet. I'll probably get the pair back from my dad, which would allow me to put the LMS-5400 against the UXL-18 and SI HST-18, which would be a heck of a shootout. All I'd be missing is the new Dayton Ultimax from the big boy DIY 18s. Hmmm....

The FTW-21 should also be thrown in but I haven't heard it so I don't know much about it.

So here's a top 5(or so) in terms of output of the most popular DIY drivers that I've seen.
1. SI HS24
2. FTW-21
3. SI HST-18
3. LMS-5400
3. UXL-18
3/6? Dayton Ultimax 18
7. SI18 in multiples
Is the XXX still available??? If it is lets throw that bad boy in there are well.
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post #22526 of 24811 Old 08-24-2014, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post
Is the XXX still available??? If it is lets throw that bad boy in there are well.
I guess the XXX is back and available but I haven't heard if its the same beast it once was or if it has changed. Regarding throwing that bad boy in, the only thing getting thrown would be my back if we're talking the XXX. I guess the XXX must be considered but it requires such a big box for ported or infinite baffle that I've never really given it much thought. But it likely works for someone.
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post #22527 of 24811 Old 08-24-2014, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
I guess the XXX is back and available but I haven't heard if its the same beast it once was or if it has changed. Regarding throwing that bad boy in, the only thing getting thrown would be my back if we're talking the XXX. I guess the XXX must be considered but it requires such a big box for ported or infinite baffle that I've never really given it much thought. But it likely works for someone.
Haha! Did you just mention XXX's and big boxes in the same post??

What size box does the SI 24 need again??
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post #22528 of 24811 Old 08-24-2014, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
I'd say the SI HS24 is hands down the biggest, baddest, best sounding sub I've heard. When we were at Beast's GTG, it bested a pair of my LMS 5400s and we couldn't tell a difference A/Bing them (level matched) until the audio went below 10Hz, which is when the LMS-5400s ran out of gas. Now that was when I only had 2400w on each of my LMS-5400s. I have 4000w now so a pair of LMS-5400s would be a closer fight to the HS24 but I'd probably still give the nod to the HS24, if only below 15Hz. Even better, the HS24 is only $80 more than the LMS-5400 shipped ($999+$5shipping). So if you've got the room, I'd get a pair of HS24s and call the sub system done. Maybe an extra 18 in the back to even out bass response.

Now I haven't listened to the UXL-18 enough to have an opinion on it yet. I'll probably get the pair back from my dad, which would allow me to put the LMS-5400 against the UXL-18 and SI HST-18, which would be a heck of a shootout. All I'd be missing is the new Dayton Ultimax from the big boy DIY 18s. Hmmm....

The FTW-21 should also be thrown in but I haven't heard it so I don't know much about it.

So here's a top 5(or so) in terms of output of the most popular DIY drivers that I've seen.
1. SI HS24
2. FTW-21
3. SI HST-18
3. LMS-5400
3. UXL-18
3/6? Dayton Ultimax 18
7. SI18 in multiples
Ok, also I have a "flare" for cost effectiveness. Don't get me wrong. A pair of 24's would be sweet! But they need HUGE 10-15ft sealed boxes. Can be done but...I like the performance I get with the dual Submersives for their size. But it would be cool to look at 24's!!! I really like JBrowns build. Thinking a ported setup perhaps...Was Dayton releasing the new 18?

Last edited by jlpowell84; 08-24-2014 at 09:46 PM.
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post #22529 of 24811 Old 08-24-2014, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post
Is the XXX still available??? If it is lets throw that bad boy in there are well.
Yes, it is listed on parts express just a hair below 1k
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post #22530 of 24811 Old 08-24-2014, 09:50 PM
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The FTW 21 calls for a 6 cu ft sealed on their site...
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