Official JTR speaker thread - Page 772 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #23131 of 30576 Old 09-12-2014, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
No surprise that lots of JTR fans feel this way, since they only sell direct.

I read somewhere that some of the acoustic treatment companies will give you pro advice on acoustic treatment.

I wonder if dialing in fancy "acoustic lens" treatment is less of an issue, though, if you go with main speakers with constant directivity horns and monopole surrounds. Maybe dialing in the right diffusion ratio is less of an issue, and you just need enough absorption. Room modes are still tricky, but the REW room sim seems to work great for that.

You can buy raw materials for good absorption for practically nothing.



I have been looking into this for sometime. I have friends that think I'm nuts for selling my previous speaker setup but after doing some research I'm convinced it was the appropriate move. Besides I have the bosses approval thus far. Anyway I started looking into the room treatment thing by reviewing this YouTube presentation:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raAyF5ksbkk&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DraA yF5ksbkk&app=desktop


After additional reading I gained advice from GIK which appear to be topnotch folks, not to say there aren't others but these are the folks I'm leaning towards purchasing the panels I need.


http://www.gikacoustics.com/acoustic-advice/
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post #23132 of 30576 Old 09-12-2014, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by BamaDave View Post
I have been looking into this for sometime. I have friends that think I'm nuts for selling my previous speaker setup but after doing some research I'm convinced it was the appropriate move. Besides I have the bosses approval thus far. Anyway I started looking into the room treatment thing by reviewing this YouTube presentation:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raAyF5ksbkk&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DraA yF5ksbkk&app=desktop


After additional reading I gained advice from GIK which appear to be topnotch folks, not to say there aren't others but these are the folks I'm leaning towards purchasing the panels I need.


http://www.gikacoustics.com/acoustic-advice/
Do you know you are writing in black? Anyway, panels are pretty easy to make, just takes time. You could build your own for a 1/4 of the price.
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post #23133 of 30576 Old 09-12-2014, 08:47 PM
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I know I have heard some guys looking for a new BD player. This may be the one. I am interested.

Pioneer Elite BDP-85FD and BDP-88FD Blu-ray Players at CEDIA 2014
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post #23134 of 30576 Old 09-12-2014, 08:54 PM
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Do you know you are writing in black? Anyway, panels are pretty easy to make, just takes time. You could build your own for a 1/4 of the price.
Very true. But no way I have the time to construct panels that would look professionally done. I just ordered from GIK . Corner bass traps and some front wall treatments to get ready for the new speaks. I think I will add a couple panels to cover the contralateral first reflections, but held off since I might do art panels for those. Definitely doable as DIY though, I have no doubt about that.
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post #23135 of 30576 Old 09-12-2014, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
Do you know you are writing in black? Anyway, panels are pretty easy to make, just takes time. You could build your own for a 1/4 of the price.

From what I understand you need a mixture of absorption and diffusion and yes the traps and absorption panels can be made on the cheap in comparison but the diffusion panels are a different animal.
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post #23136 of 30576 Old 09-12-2014, 09:21 PM
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The amount of treatments, and even the need for them above schroeder at all, isn't entirely clear.

What is clear is that those that sell treatments generally believe you can't have too many .
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post #23137 of 30576 Old 09-12-2014, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to spend much time with them, yet, or run room EQ, but my initial impression went something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YG4...utu.be&t=1m21s
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Ha! Glad to hear it.
Lol very nice! Except we know who "cooked" these speakers

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post #23138 of 30576 Old 09-12-2014, 09:34 PM
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They were only used for church music on Sundays .
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post #23139 of 30576 Old 09-12-2014, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
Well me and the wife just got done lugging a few big theater chairs in the room and I fully believe that the chairs are brown. I ordered three black and I swear they are brown. However sometimes they do look black to me and my wife swears they black and thinks I have lost it. We have been at this for an hour. If I look into the room from the other room they are black, but when I get close, they are brown. They also appear to have brown stitching. It would only make sense that they are brown so I have to ship them back and do it all over again. I mean why would I order black chairs and get black chairs????? I am praying in the morning when the room is lit up that they are black. I will say they are comfy, this was a blind buy and it worked. That is if they are the right color. They are the Lane 103's
They look a little brown in that picture. Is there anything on the tags that states they are black? They look really nice though. I have couches that look the same color. In a dimly lit room you would swear they are black but in bright light they are very dark brown.
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post #23140 of 30576 Old 09-12-2014, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
Do you know you are writing in black? Anyway, panels are pretty easy to make, just takes time. You could build your own for a 1/4 of the price.
I found a place in Canada that sells them for so cheap its not even worth building them. I bought really nice 2'x4'x3.5" think panels for $50ea. they are really 3" thick but have a 1/2" air gap in them which is also really nice. Plus they did a bunch of custom sizes for me. Anyone located in Canada should definitely take a look at what they have to offer!


The panels shipped today and I should have them around Wednesday.
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post #23141 of 30576 Old 09-12-2014, 11:51 PM
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I found a place in Canada that sells them for so cheap its not even worth building them. I bought really nice 2'x4'x3.5" think panels for $50ea. they are really 3" thick but have a 1/2" air gap in them which is also really nice. Plus they did a bunch of custom sizes for me. Anyone located in Canada should definitely take a look at what they have to offer!


The panels shipped today and I should have them around Wednesday.
Link? Company name?
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post #23142 of 30576 Old 09-12-2014, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
Well me and the wife just got done lugging a few big theater chairs in the room and I fully believe that the chairs are brown. I ordered three black and I swear they are brown. However sometimes they do look black to me and my wife swears they black and thinks I have lost it. We have been at this for an hour. If I look into the room from the other room they are black, but when I get close, they are brown. They also appear to have brown stitching. It would only make sense that they are brown so I have to ship them back and do it all over again. I mean why would I order black chairs and get black chairs????? I am praying in the morning when the room is lit up that they are black. I will say they are comfy, this was a blind buy and it worked. That is if they are the right color. They are the Lane 103's
You could ask them to send you black and brown sample squares to be sure.
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post #23143 of 30576 Old 09-13-2014, 12:02 AM
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Link? Company name?
Just because I found them doesn't mean I want to share who they're from!....lol


http://www.waveacoustic.com/
With the US dollar being 10cents stronger if anyone can get a good deal on cross border shipping these panels would be a really good deal.


I'm going to be running 3.5" thick panels on my side walls at my first reflection points and same for my ceiling, and then I have three 4.5" think panels for the back of the room. One large one in between the two rear columns at the back of the room and then one on either side of the back row of seats.


I was planning on ordering a bunch of these black diffusers from Acoustic Frontiers to put on the ceiling above the first & second row of seats.



They look pretty good for $85ea and forum member doublewing seems to be really happy with them in his room.
http://store.acousticfrontiers.com/A...fuser-DC2.html
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post #23144 of 30576 Old 09-13-2014, 03:54 AM
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Just because I found them doesn't mean I want to share who they're from!....lol


[URL]http://www.waveacoustic.com/[/URL
I admit those prices sound very tempting. But their website throws up multiple flags for me. I will wait to see how your experience is first .
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post #23145 of 30576 Old 09-13-2014, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Just because I found them doesn't mean I want to share who they're from!....lol


http://www.waveacoustic.com/
With the US dollar being 10cents stronger if anyone can get a good deal on cross border shipping these panels would be a really good deal.


I'm going to be running 3.5" thick panels on my side walls at my first reflection points and same for my ceiling, and then I have three 4.5" think panels for the back of the room. One large one in between the two rear columns at the back of the room and then one on either side of the back row of seats.


I was planning on ordering a bunch of these black diffusers from Acoustic Frontiers to put on the ceiling above the first & second row of seats.



They look pretty good for $85ea and forum member doublewing seems to be really happy with them in his room.
http://store.acousticfrontiers.com/A...fuser-DC2.html
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I admit those prices sound very tempting. But their website throws up multiple flags for me. I will wait to see how your experience is first .
I have those diffuser panels in my room. They are made by Vicoustics (http://vicousticusa.com) . Acoustic frontiers is just the store selling the product. You can buy the panels directly from Vicoustics or from other vendors such as lunchboxaudio (which is where I bought them from last year). Here is what they look like in my room integrated with other Vicoustic panels for absorption and diffusion.

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post #23146 of 30576 Old 09-13-2014, 06:02 AM
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What was your conclusion?

I have a couple 400 watt options sitting around I'm anxious to compare:
3x Hypex NC400 mono kits
Parasound A51

Not sure if I'd be better off with monster amps, or if it matters.
the first conclusion was that the 215 really benefit from the extra power, but at listening levels I use the 212 will also benefit greatly. I asked him what he thought would be better amp for driving the 212 or 215, three Emotive XPR's (1750/ch) or the LG10k (2100/ch)? He told me he preferred the LG because of all the protection circuitry and the VHF (very high frequency limiter). He said at really loud levels it sounds very smooth. He should know with his experience in pro audio. I should be able to comment on this in about a week. Right now I am only running the Sunfire but it cannot keep up. Next week the LG should be hooked up.


You will hear many say with the efficiency they don't understand how you could use more power, but the fact is if you have a lot of room absorption and fast decay times, then louder SPL levels are not fatiguing like in a brighter room. The other thing is transient peaks take a lot more power than most thing. Even if 2 watts gets you to reference, a 20dB peak will require 200 watts! In my room the party is just getting started at reference. When we have parties (20 people in the room) we often go to +15dBFR, so yeah if you like to push these levels occasionally 2000 watts per channel can be needed. IF I only watched movies, I seriously would not need anything more than an AVR with 120watts/ch. I never watch a movie above reference (in fact really never above -5dB except for clips)
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post #23147 of 30576 Old 09-13-2014, 06:15 AM
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AVS forum member Michaek&Klipsh posted this pic in the JTR Captivator thread (last page) and said they were from Vicoustic. I really like them but when I tried to finds them on the site I could not find them. Nyal at Acoustic Frontiers carries Vicoustic but was also not familiar these. Wish I could find these and also some different shapes like circles.



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post #23148 of 30576 Old 09-13-2014, 06:16 AM
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the first conclusion was that the 215 really benefit from the extra power, but at listening levels I use the 212 will also benefit greatly. I asked him what he thought would be better amp for driving the 212 or 215, three Emotive XPR's (1750/ch) or the LG10k (2100/ch)? He told me he preferred the LG because of all the protection circuitry and the VHF (very high frequency limiter). He said at really loud levels it sounds very smooth. He should know with his experience in pro audio. I should be able to comment on this in about a week. Right now I am only running the Sunfire but it cannot keep up. Next week the LG should be hooked up.


You will hear many say with the efficiency they don't understand how you could use more power, but the fact is if you have a lot of room absorption and fast decay times, then louder SPL levels are not fatiguing like in a brighter room. The other thing is transient peaks take a lot more power than most thing. Even if 2 watts gets you to reference, a 20dB peak will require 200 watts! In my room the party is just getting started at reference. When we have parties (20 people in the room) we often go to +15dBFR, so yeah if you like to push these levels occasionally 2000 watts per channel can be needed. IF I only watched movies, I seriously would not need anything more than an AVR with 120watts/ch. I never watch a movie above reference (in fact really never above -5dB except for clips)


^^^^There are believers and non-believers. Never shall they agree
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post #23149 of 30576 Old 09-13-2014, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
I have those diffuser panels in my room. They are made by Vicoustics (http://vicousticusa.com) . Acoustic frontiers is just the store selling the product. You can buy the panels directly from Vicoustics or from other vendors such as lunchboxaudio (which is where I bought them from last year). Here is what they look like in my room integrated with other Vicoustic panels for absorption and diffusion.

I was talking about the waveacoustic site, not the diffuser site. Those diffusers look very cool. What is the effect in-room? Do they widen the apparent soundfield at those ipsilateral first reflection points?
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post #23150 of 30576 Old 09-13-2014, 06:23 AM
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I know. I put a lot of stock in my own experience (hearing my Sunfire struggle and ready to tap out) and also the opinion of the designer of one of the best speakers out there (IMHO) and also 15 yrs of pro audio experience. I may be a believer but at least I am not a Belieber!

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post #23151 of 30576 Old 09-13-2014, 06:42 AM
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Trying to calibrate, and having trouble because my Onkyo pre-amp sets the 212s at the minimum level of -12db. That leaves them too loud relative to the subs and surrounds, so nothing is in balance.

Has anyone else ran into this? What's the best solution?

Some ideas, although I'm not sure about the implications:

1) I could buy some in-line attenuators between the pre-amp and the amp. But then I'd have to wait for them. My amps don't have any gain adjustment.
2) I could turn down the LCR level in JRiver or Dirac. Then, I'd have to do bass management in JRiver, so the bass doesn't get turned down on the LCRs but not the rest. I'm not sure if that's better or worse than doing bass management in my pre-amp.
3) I could set levels using REW, so I can turn the surrounds trim up, so I can get the LCRs off the -12db floor and balance the speakers. The volume gauge on the pre-amp would no longer say where reference is, and I'm not sure if I would be in digital clipping territory for surrounds.
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post #23152 of 30576 Old 09-13-2014, 06:43 AM
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I was talking about the waveacoustic site, not the diffuser site. Those diffusers look very cool. What is the effect in-room? Do they widen the apparent soundfield at those ipsilateral first reflection points?
Ditto. I've never been clear on the benefit of diffusers.
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post #23153 of 30576 Old 09-13-2014, 06:50 AM
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3) I could set levels using REW, so I can turn the surrounds trim up, so I can get the LCRs off the -12db floor and balance the speakers. The volume gauge on the pre-amp would no longer say where reference is, and I'm not sure if I would be in digital clipping territory for surrounds.
Pretty much EVERYONE runs into this with the 212's.

#3 is your best option IMO and raising surround trims will not cause clipping.

Option #4 is to get a pro amp with adjustable gains
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post #23154 of 30576 Old 09-13-2014, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Trying to calibrate, and having trouble because my Onkyo pre-amp sets the 212s at the minimum level of -12db. That leaves them too loud relative to the subs and surrounds, so nothing is in balance.

Has anyone else ran into this? What's the best solution?

Some ideas, although I'm not sure about the implications:

1) I could buy some in-line attenuators between the pre-amp and the amp. But then I'd have to wait for them. My amps don't have any gain adjustment.
2) I could turn down the LCR level in JRiver or Dirac. Then, I'd have to do bass management in JRiver, so the bass doesn't get turned down on the LCRs but not the rest. I'm not sure if that's better or worse than doing bass management in my pre-amp.
3) I could set levels using REW, so I can turn the surrounds trim up, so I can get the LCRs off the -12db floor and balance the speakers. The volume gauge on the pre-amp would no longer say where reference is, and I'm not sure if I would be in digital clipping territory for surrounds.

I like option 3 if you don't need to go above +6dB on the rear trims. The other issue could be by having ref being at say -10dBFR on the MV dial then any dynamic volume EQ (boosted bass at lower MV levels) will be "off".

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post #23155 of 30576 Old 09-13-2014, 07:03 AM
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With the 212's I simply used -10 as reference. Meaning that when my avr master volume says -10 I'm actually at reference.

Currently I use 0 as reference. In doing so my center channel (still a 212) is 2 db's hot but I've found I prefer that. I never bumped up the 212 when I had all 212's up front but for some reason my ears feel the need to have the center bumped up a bit with the 215's as mains.

I watched Ender's Game yesterday at 2.5 under reference and it was awesome. So much great bass in that movie and it didn't sound loud or harsh at all. Why not just play it at reference? I started the movie that way and a couple of pictures fell off the wall so I backed it down a little.

Tonight we are having a movie night with my wife's family and we are watching the new Captain America movie. Have you guys watched the blu-ray? How is the sound and bass? Is the movie good? thanks
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post #23156 of 30576 Old 09-13-2014, 07:05 AM
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I like option 3 if you don't need to go above +6dB on the rear trims. The other issue could be by having ref being at say -10dBFR on the MV dial then any dynamic volume EQ (boosted bass at lower MV levels) will be "off".
I haven't had good luck with Dynamic EQ, anyway. It's nice for a casual setup, but when trying to really try to dial in the sound, it's easier without a moving target. It's like trying to calibrate a projector with dynamic iris.
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post #23157 of 30576 Old 09-13-2014, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
You could ask them to send you black and brown sample squares to be sure.
It is the weirdest thing. I went out this morning with my wife again and she says black and I still think they have a brown tint, but it is overcast here today, the sun has not poked out yet. I may also be because they are shinny. For the price I got them for, I could almost live with them because they are still very dark and the room will mostly be dark. I am actually thinking about calling back and getting a 4th as they fit better than I thought. Would have loved to have done a second row, but that would put me to close to the speakers for the first row. If I were to ever get smaller speakers I would consider doing a second row or a high bar with a few tall seats, still might to the high bar though.
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post #23158 of 30576 Old 09-13-2014, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
It is the weirdest thing. I went out this morning with my wife again and she says black and I still think they have a brown tint, but it is overcast here today, the sun has not poked out yet. I may also be because they are shinny. For the price I got them for, I could almost live with them because they are still very dark and the room will mostly be dark. I am actually thinking about calling back and getting a 4th as they fit better than I thought. Would have loved to have done a second row, but that would put me to close to the speakers for the first row. If I were to ever get smaller speakers I would consider doing a second row or a high bar with a few tall seats, still might to the high bar though.

Dave, the shiny thing worries me. I bought some chairs a couple months back and absolutely loved them until I noticed that they became hot after 45 minutes to an hour and just kept getting hotter after that. They were kind of shiny too.

Aminis (local store) took them back no problem and I ordered the same style chair but in leather instead of bonded leather. If I were you I'd try them out for a good hour and see if they get hot like mine did.

As far as the color... if it's that hard to tell I wouldn't worry about it.
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post #23159 of 30576 Old 09-13-2014, 07:17 AM
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post #23160 of 30576 Old 09-13-2014, 07:24 AM
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With the 212's I simply used -10 as reference. Meaning that when my avr master volume says -10 I'm actually at reference.

Currently I use 0 as reference. In doing so my center channel (still a 212) is 2 db's hot but I've found I prefer that. I never bumped up the 212 when I had all 212's up front but for some reason my ears feel the need to have the center bumped up a bit with the 215's as mains.

I watched Ender's Game yesterday at 2.5 under reference and it was awesome. So much great bass in that movie and it didn't sound loud or harsh at all. Why not just play it at reference? I started the movie that way and a couple of pictures fell off the wall so I backed it down a little.

Tonight we are having a movie night with my wife's family and we are watching the new Captain America movie. Have you guys watched the blu-ray? How is the sound and bass? Is the movie good? thanks

Carp, we watched CA 2 last night but only at -12dB but it was still good sound quality. I do like the sound on all of the Marvel Avenger movies. This one had lost of good bass and surround too. As for the movie, I like all of them a lot, but this one is in my top 3. I like Avengers>CA2>Iron Man 2>Hulk

Pre-Pro: Emotiva XMC-1, DSP: Mini DSP 2x4 balanced
Amplifier: Sunfire TGA7400, Lab Gruppen FP10000Q
Speakers: JTR Noesis 212HT (LCR), JTR Slant 8's (surrounds), 3 Orbit Shifter LFU's
Sources: PS3, HTPC, Dish Network
Projector: Epson 8350
Screen: Seymour XD AT 138" diagonal 16:9
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