Official JTR speaker thread - Page 775 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #23221 of 30574 Old 09-13-2014, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
What?!! ^^

Nothing meant by what I posted. I think pop doesn't believe speakers can be designed to work in the same way in different rooms. Am I right about that pop? I don't blame him for that position as I'm not aware of anyone else that has been able to pull it off at this level. And quite frankly, it takes an exceptional design and speaker to pull it off and I don't think most manufacturers have the know how and/or the resources/facilities to do it if they wanted to. I'm also sure the M2's wouldn't work right in EVERY room, but I do think the design paradigm works in common rooms.

I have no animus toward popalock, it's just a speaker. I'm actually looking forward to him hearing some M2's one day and his impressions.
Sounds like someone needs to host a GTG so that the M2's can throw down!
I have speaker envy....lol Although I can't say that my wallet would agree!
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post #23222 of 30574 Old 09-13-2014, 06:21 PM
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The Thrilla at Gorilla has been laid down. Date unknown.
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post #23223 of 30574 Old 09-13-2014, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
What?!! ^^

Nothing meant by what I posted. I think pop doesn't believe speakers can be designed to work in the same way in different rooms. Am I right about that pop? I don't blame him for that position as I'm not aware of anyone else that has been able to pull it off at this level. And quite frankly, it takes an exceptional design and speaker to pull it off and I don't think most manufacturers have the know how and/or the resources/facilities to do it if they wanted to. I'm also sure the M2's wouldn't work right in EVERY room, but I do think the design paradigm works in common rooms.

I have no animus toward popalock, it's just a speaker. I'm actually looking forward to him hearing some M2's one day and his impressions.
It was just a Popalock joke. It is all in good fun.
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post #23224 of 30574 Old 09-13-2014, 10:24 PM
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Lol...it's all good guys.

@Gooddoc
I can't wait to get a chance to hear the M2. No question they are world class.

I haven't had a chance to look into what you posted. Can you provide a source, please. What you described (or quoted) sounds like JBL processing (in room). The M2's are passive monitors, correct? Did you purchase a (the?) JBL processing unit to go with the M2's?

When you demoed the M2's was it in 2 channel pure direct? Or was their any other processing in the mix that you were aware of?

To take a speaker and throw it into any room, then say that it can overcome the acoustical challnges presented by that unique space sounds...a bit...unrealistic. I mean, there are literally millions of variables to overcome from an acoustical standpoint.

So yes, I am a skeptic. I blame all the other extreme right wing #AVSObjectivists for jading me.


Last edited by popalock; 09-13-2014 at 10:27 PM.
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post #23225 of 30574 Old 09-13-2014, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
It was just a Popalock joke. It is all in good fun.
Poplock's not really known to be the joking type!...lol
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post #23226 of 30574 Old 09-14-2014, 12:18 AM
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Poplock's not really known to be the joking type!...lol
I never never joke. Ever.

Life is too short for that $hit. Besides, humor is subjective...Ain't nobody got time for that!
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post #23227 of 30574 Old 09-14-2014, 01:15 AM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post
Lol...it's all good guys.

@Gooddoc
I can't wait to get a chance to hear the M2. No question they are world class.

I haven't had a chance to look into what you posted. Can you provide a source, please. What you described (or quoted) sounds like JBL processing (in room). The M2's are passive monitors, correct? Did you purchase a (the?) JBL processing unit to go with the M2's?

When you demoed the M2's was it in 2 channel pure direct? Or was their any other processing in the mix that you were aware of?

To take a speaker and throw it into any room, then say that it can overcome the acoustical challnges presented by that unique space sounds...a bit...unrealistic. I mean, there are literally millions of variables to overcome from an acoustical standpoint.

So yes, I am a skeptic. I blame all the other extreme right wing #AVSObjectivists for jading me.

I have had a chance to demo the JBL synthesis at a local dealer. According to him, the JBL synthesis speakers comes with a processor and you have to place 8 microphones around the room and it auto-corrects for the 'in-room response'. I have a feeling that that processor does a little bit more than what audyssey does.

I think I am sort of sold to the idea of a processor that can correct for room response. I said 'sort of' because I don't believe it can correct for low bass for instance. You can cut off bass if the room is building up room modes, but not sure how that would be 'good'. I like strong bass overpowering you when it first hits, then disappears,... that requires a 'cancelling' source like huge bass traps or perhaps another sub placed at the back that cancel off the first wave... i doubt any processor can do that job.

But for most frequencies, perhaps a processor can do 90% of the job.

I am no expert, but this is all just my own speculation after hearing what i hear...
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post #23228 of 30574 Old 09-14-2014, 01:23 AM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post
Lol...it's all good guys.

@Gooddoc
I can't wait to get a chance to hear the M2. No question they are world class.

I haven't had a chance to look into what you posted. Can you provide a source, please. What you described (or quoted) sounds like JBL processing (in room). The M2's are passive monitors, correct? Did you purchase a (the?) JBL processing unit to go with the M2's?

When you demoed the M2's was it in 2 channel pure direct? Or was their any other processing in the mix that you were aware of?

To take a speaker and throw it into any room, then say that it can overcome the acoustical challnges presented by that unique space sounds...a bit...unrealistic. I mean, there are literally millions of variables to overcome from an acoustical standpoint.

So yes, I am a skeptic. I blame all the other extreme right wing #AVSObjectivists for jading me.

Actually, rooms really aren't the major problem. Right? I mean we talk all day in them without ever thinking we need to EQ them. And if someone were to play an instrument in a room we would think it sounds beautiful, no? I know I've never once thought anything but how beautiful the piano sounds in my room when my daughter plays. Or how awesome my friends guitar sounds in the room when he plays. No EQ or treatments necessary.

Sure, I've no doubt that treating the room acoustically could improve all of it, but they're really good on their own. Way better than what happens when I put typical speakers in there. Why is that? It's not the room, but the speaker that is the problem!! It sucks at being a sound source and creates it's own problems.

That Linear Spatial Reference design paradigm that I quoted earlier is all about fixing that problem. It's a Floyd/Toole approach of integrating the room response, or total sound power, into the speaker design and using spatial response measurements and psychoacoustic principles to treat the room and the speaker as a system. Good source, less room problem. The M2 simply represents the technical prowess to showcase the merits of their approach. So this whole "Master Reference Monitor" thing is really as much about proving a design philosophy for JBL as it is about making a great speaker.

And when you hear it you know right away they got it right. It's not a gimmick or BS acronym or slogan. It's solid engineering and a lot of research coming together to solve real problems.

Bass problems below Shroeder are not addressable with this LSR approach though, so acoustic treatments for room modal issues are still as necessary as they've always been.

As to processing, the M2's need either the Crown Itech 5000HD amps with the integrated London Soundweb Processing built in, or a separate BSS processor needs to be purchased. The processor stores the active filters and also integrates with the JBL Audio Architect software via the network to allow for measuring and EQ capability via PC. So the active filters and EQ curves are completely user modifiable for room tuning and multiple curves can be stored and utilized. It's like a miniDSP.

Edit: no processing on demo. Just pure direct through pro gear. There was no AVR.

Last edited by Gooddoc; 09-14-2014 at 02:08 AM.
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post #23229 of 30574 Old 09-14-2014, 01:43 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
I have had a chance to demo the JBL synthesis at a local dealer. According to him, the JBL synthesis speakers comes with a processor and you have to place 8 microphones around the room and it auto-corrects for the 'in-room response'. I have a feeling that that processor does a little bit more than what audyssey does.

I think I am sort of sold to the idea of a processor that can correct for room response. I said 'sort of' because I don't believe it can correct for low bass for instance. You can cut off bass if the room is building up room modes, but not sure how that would be 'good'. I like strong bass overpowering you when it first hits, then disappears,... that requires a 'cancelling' source like huge bass traps or perhaps another sub placed at the back that cancel off the first wave... i doubt any processor can do that job.

But for most frequencies, perhaps a processor can do 90% of the job.

I am no expert, but this is all just my own speculation after hearing what i hear...
The M2 has none of the Synthesis room correction stuff. What you're talking about is ARCOS, which is essentially JBL's version of Audyssey that also integrates with their Sound Field Management, or SFM, which is the Harman research distributed subwoofer bass management solution.

You are correct though that the Linear Spatial Reference approach of the M2 does not solve issues related to room modal problems below Schroeder. Acoustic treatments and proper sub placement via SFM are necessary to deal with those, or EQ like Audyssey.

As I understand it, It's the region from 300 Hz or so up to about 10 KHz that can be impacted by proper speaker design and attention to room power response, and this is where the LSR design focuses. But it's not about EQ, it's about speaker design and crossover selection because you can't EQ away speaker directivity or dispersion defects that negatively impact the room power response.
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post #23230 of 30574 Old 09-14-2014, 01:55 AM
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The M2 has none of the Synthesis room correction stuff. What you're talking about is ARCOS, which is essentially JBL's version of Audyssey that also integrates with their Sound Field Management, or SFM, which is the Harman research distributed subwoofer bass management solution.

You are correct though that the Linear Spatial Reference approach of the M2 does not solve issues related to room modal problems below Schroeder. Acoustic treatments and proper sub placement via SFM are necessary to deal with those, or EQ like Audyssey.

As I understand it, It's the region from 300 Hz or so up to about 10 KHz that can be impacted by proper speaker design and attention to room power response, and this is where the LSR design focuses. But it's not about EQ, it's about speaker design and crossover selection because you can't EQ away speaker directivity or dispersion defects that negatively impact the room power response.

Ah IC... sounds like a winner... I might have to find a way to audition one of these M2s...
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post #23231 of 30574 Old 09-14-2014, 02:03 AM
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So how was the Synthesis demo?
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post #23232 of 30574 Old 09-14-2014, 03:14 AM
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post #23233 of 30574 Old 09-14-2014, 04:09 AM
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So how was the Synthesis demo?
THe one I heard uses the in-wall speakers...

http://www.jblsynthesis.com/Products/Details/129 plus 2x12 inch subs.

They sound ok to me (better than most home theater setups in my country)... Of course no where close to my Noesis/Orbit Shifter combination.

They just got in the bigger brother S4700 floor standing speakers.

http://www.jblsynthesis.com/Products/Details/149

IT's not setup yet so I haven't had a chance to listen to them. They said it might be a few months to get setup because they are also waiting for the processor to arrive to set the new system up properly.

In my own personal opinion, I am sure all the gadgets like a processor, etc, could add something to the overall sound quality, I think 90% of the entire sound quality lies in Speakers + Room Acoustics.

Chasing the last 10% is expensive and probably not for me (cause I can't afford it).
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post #23234 of 30574 Old 09-14-2014, 06:15 AM
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In my own personal opinion, I am sure all the gadgets like a processor, etc, could add something to the overall sound quality, I think 90% of the entire sound quality lies in Speakers + Room Acoustics.

Chasing the last 10% is expensive and probably not for me (cause I can't afford it).
IMO, times have changed, and good DSP now belongs in the same category as Speakers and Room Acoustics as major contributors to sound quality. It makes just as much as an impact as speakers & acoustics - not subtle, like amps, DACs, or wires.
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post #23235 of 30574 Old 09-14-2014, 06:21 AM
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IMO, times have changed, and good DSP now belongs in the same category as Speakers and Room Acoustics as major contributors to sound quality. It makes just as much as an impact as speakers & acoustics - not subtle, like amps, DACs, or wires.
Maybe... I like to keep an open mind about it...

The last AV trade show I attended had quite a few active speakers with DSPs built in... I wasn't impressed.

There might be some out there that are impressive I am sure.. just haven't encountered any that even comes close to my passive 212s...
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post #23236 of 30574 Old 09-14-2014, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
I have had a chance to demo the JBL synthesis at a local dealer. According to him, the JBL synthesis speakers comes with a processor and you have to place 8 microphones around the room and it auto-corrects for the 'in-room response'. I have a feeling that that processor does a little bit more than what audyssey does.

I think I am sort of sold to the idea of a processor that can correct for room response. I said 'sort of' because I don't believe it can correct for low bass for instance. You can cut off bass if the room is building up room modes, but not sure how that would be 'good'. I like strong bass overpowering you when it first hits, then disappears,... that requires a 'cancelling' source like huge bass traps or perhaps another sub placed at the back that cancel off the first wave... i doubt any processor can do that job.

But for most frequencies, perhaps a processor can do 90% of the job.

I am no expert, but this is all just my own speculation after hearing what i hear...
Assuming we aren't getting into active cancellation (like a Double Bass Array or Dirac Unison) and you don't have a null going on, DSP can correct for linear speaker and room distortion at a single listening position. As you expand the listening area, less can be corrected with DSP without causing problems in other positions, but the consistent problems can still be corrected. This is where it's better to combine acoustic treatment with DSP.

There are certain room configurations where DSP can remove energy from a room, like if the MLP is equidistant between front and back subs, but in general, it can't do that, and that's another ready why it's best to combine it with acoustic treatment.

On the other hand, DSP gives great flexibility for fine tuning frequency response and correcting time alignment.

Bottom line, though, is that we're not talking about something subtle, like the difference between DACs. Good DSP can make dramatic improvements, without the negative tradeoffs usually associated with bad DSP.

You mentioned Audyssey. I'd describe that as mediocre, not in the good category. You want something that at least lets you hand tune the target curve. Also, IMO, something gets lost when you use Audyssey.

I'm currently using Dirac, and I've been happy with that, but there is other good stuff out there.
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post #23237 of 30574 Old 09-14-2014, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Maybe... I like to keep an open mind about it...

The last AV trade show I attended had quite a few active speakers with DSPs built in... I wasn't impressed.

There might be some out there that are impressive I am sure.. just haven't encountered any that even comes close to my passive 212s...
I agree that the passive crossover in the 212s seem to be exceptional. I've heard a lot of great active speakers, though. Good DSP will improve both passive and active speakers.

Also, I'd expect good DSP to improve just about any speaker and room. Unless I'm mistaken, every recording studio uses EQ, regardless of how good the acoustics are. Of course, the better the speakers and room are, the less room that there is for improvement.

If you have a PC as a source and a calibrated mic, it's easy to try a Dirac Live trial. If you like it, the miniDSP DL box might make more sense for you. There isn't a reasonably priced Atmos solution, yet, but I assume that will come over the next year.

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post #23238 of 30574 Old 09-14-2014, 06:42 AM
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Assuming we aren't getting into active cancellation (like a Double Bass Array or Dirac Unison) and you don't have a null going on, DSP can correct for linear speaker and room distortion at a single listening position. As you expand the listening area, less can be corrected with DSP without causing problems in other positions, but the consistent problems can still be corrected. This is where it's better to combine acoustic treatment with DSP.

There are certain room configurations where DSP can remove energy from a room, like if the MLP is equidistant between front and back subs, but in general, it can't do that, and that's another ready why it's best to combine it with acoustic treatment.

On the other hand, DSP gives great flexibility for fine tuning frequency response and correcting time alignment.

Bottom line, though, is that we're not talking about something subtle, like the difference between DACs. Good DSP can make dramatic improvements, without the negative tradeoffs usually associated with bad DSP.

You mentioned Audyssey. I'd describe that as mediocre, not in the good category. You want something that at least lets you hand tune the target curve. Also, IMO, something gets lost when you use Audyssey.

I'm currently using Dirac, and I've been happy with that, but there is other good stuff out there.

I too, just simply, HATE audyssey...

Anyways, I do like the DSP in my receiver... i like the different 'modes'.. especially the THX Cinema mode.
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post #23239 of 30574 Old 09-14-2014, 06:46 AM
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I too, just simply, HATE audyssey...

Anyways, I do like the DSP in my receiver... i like the different 'modes'.. especially the THX Cinema mode.
Personally, I haven't found a processing mode like THX Cinema that I can live with. They add some ambience which is nice for some recordings, but they seem to lose imaging and clarity, so I end up leaving them off.

The good DSP is all positive, no tradeoffs.
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post #23240 of 30574 Old 09-14-2014, 07:37 AM
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Step six, relax and enjoy one of the best HT speakers I have ever heard.
Step six achieved and all I can say is wow, I'm blown away at the improvement! I did absolute nothing but connect and power them up "after bro in-law and myself cough our breath" and wham the audio quality and headroom was nothing short of amazing. I did notice that my F113 was lacking in the bottom end so I might have to look at upgrading it as well. Looks like a pare of S2's might be in the future. I do have the old school Mirage OM-6/5s supporting the balance of my 9.1 and of course buttkicker that providing acceptable affect tho!
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post #23241 of 30574 Old 09-14-2014, 07:58 AM
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Just checked out the M2 specs... max spl of 123dB... that's like a whole 10 dB less than the 212s... definitely not going to get me to the listening level i am used to.

Assuming you're sitting 15 feet away, that's about maybe 13 or so dB lost.. so, 110dB... don't you need 115dB for reference?
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post #23242 of 30574 Old 09-14-2014, 08:06 AM
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Actually, rooms really aren't the major problem. Right? I mean we talk all day in them without ever thinking we need to EQ them. And if someone were to play an instrument in a room we would think it sounds beautiful, no? I know I've never once thought anything but how beautiful the piano sounds in my room when my daughter plays. Or how awesome my friends guitar sounds in the room when he plays. No EQ or treatments necessary.
Have you tried placing your piano in a concrete bunker?
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post #23243 of 30574 Old 09-14-2014, 08:06 AM
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Bam, that is awesome. Great to hear your initial impressions are so positive. I too had to upgrade the bass output when I got my T12's. I had an Epik Empire and two smaller velodyne 12's. I am sure it will be a lot of fun along the way. The T12 is so good for HT.

Pre-Pro: Emotiva XMC-1, DSP: Mini DSP 2x4 balanced
Amplifier: Sunfire TGA7400, Lab Gruppen FP10000Q
Speakers: JTR Noesis 212HT (LCR), JTR Slant 8's (surrounds), 3 Orbit Shifter LFU's
Sources: PS3, HTPC, Dish Network
Projector: Epson 8350
Screen: Seymour XD AT 138" diagonal 16:9
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We watched the Captain America bluray at -8 last night. Great fun and the sound/bass were outstanding. I don't need no stinking ATMOS ...
We watched yesterday with the level at -3.5 and it was awesome. One of the best all around movies we watched in the last few months. I really wanted to test these speakers and this movie was perfect for it. The voices were crystal and the quality of the bass in multiple scenes were really clean. Had some of the friends over to watch it and when the scenes transition from quiet normal conversation to action, I could see my friends jump with the unexpected punch of the bass. They commented on how well rounded the sound experience was. Now I am thinking if the 2008 triple12s are this good how good the new ones would be.

Now I am happy at the same time jealous (can that happen )
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post #23245 of 30574 Old 09-14-2014, 08:54 AM
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I agree that the passive crossover in the 212s seem to be exceptional. I've heard a lot of great active speakers, though. Good DSP will improve both passive and active speakers.

Also, I'd expect good DSP to improve just about any speaker and room. Unless I'm mistaken, every recording studio uses EQ, regardless of how good the acoustics are. Of course, the better the speakers and room are, the less room that there is for improvement.

If you have a PC as a source and a calibrated mic, it's easy to try a Dirac Live trial. If you like it, the miniDSP DL box might make more sense for you. There isn't a reasonably priced Atmos solution, yet, but I assume that will come over the next year.
Interesting discussion guys. I have had several conversations with Jeff and he admires Mark Seatons active DSP approach with the Catalysts. So much so, that he is always happy when his speakers are compared favorably with the Cats in terms of SQ. Mark gets a lot out of those speakers with his active DSP and the only cost is dynamic output. That is the sweet spot for JTR and not everyone cares.

I am one of the ones who does.

Along those lines, I had JF56 over for a demo yesterday. It is really fun for me to watch someone experience the HT when I let it "off the chain". It is dangerous for the hearing and I don't do it very often but it is really fun when I do. The point here is that JF56 has 212 LCR's, 228 surrounds and an Orbit Shifter in his home theater. What he doesn't have is a treated dedicated room. His comments kept coming back to the room and it's ability to allow for louder without overloading. It may be that DSP can produce a similar result but I believe that the price for this is loss of dynamics.

If you do all of your listening at well below reference then there are many speakers that can do an amazing job with music. My Revel Ultima Studio 2's with JL Fathom subs come to mind as well as Vandersteen, and several others. These speakers need to be integrated with really good subs in order for that magic to happen and even then, it only works at non amplified levels.

Based upon my music tastes, a dedicated two channel system featuring Revels, Vantersteens and perhaps M2's would be fun but for my money given a system used primarily for M/C music and movies, I'd take the 215RT's, Noesis or even T12's and OS's in a treated dedicated room all day long ...

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post #23246 of 30574 Old 09-14-2014, 09:35 AM
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Are those iNukes using parametric EQ or FIR filters? What about EQ for surrounds? Are you using any?

Sorry for all the Q's, but I'm trying to figure out my gameplan
This will be way too much information but I love reading these kinds of posts from other rooms so here goes.


I am not using EQ for anything, just the dynamic eq to get a house curve for the speakers. For 2 weeks now (which is a long time for me) I have settled on running my mains large BUT with the subs on as well. I have the subs only playing from 30hz and down but with a shallow slope of 12 db's per octave on the low pass filter it's obvious when the subs are on even for music. I would have thought that a 30hz low pass on the subs would only make the subs noticeable for movies but that's not the case, they work great for music too.

I'm very happy with this current setup because for the first time EVER I don't have to change anything when switching from music to movies except for turning down the sub trim a few db's depending on the movie. With the speakers running full range and the subs on they blend great as long as I use a 12 db or 6 db slope. I haven't experimented much with how the 6 db LPF on the subs sounds but I plan to.


Here is what I am using currently with the inuke dsp that powers my mains, no PEQ:







I don't like the bass to get softer as the volume goes up so I'm actually not using the dynamic eq function for it's intended purpose, instead just to create the house curve I like.


I'm using a low shelf boost for the subs:






Now, here is what I am currently using for a LPF for the subs. 30 hz with a 12 db slope.





So, at 60 hz I'm obviously down 12 db's from my sub output. The combination of this plus the dynamic eq on my main speakers gives me a great house curve that I'm currently loving. Here is what it measures like:







I often go even hotter with the subs than ^. My room/signal chain drops like a rock below 12 hz or so, so maybe some day I'll address that.



Now, here is the problem and it didn't occur to me until yesterday while I was mowing the lawn. My AVR will route the LFE channel to the mains but only if the subs are not on. When I route the bass to both the mains and the subs as I'm currently doing only the subs get the LFE channel. It would seem I'm severly neutering my LFE channel since I have them low passed at 30hz 12 db slope. HOWEVER!!! I have to say that movies sound/feel better than they ever have. I recently watched Ender's Game and last night we had a ton of my wife's family over for Captain America 2. The bass was exactly how I like it. Never a hint of boom just violent, intense, and feel more than hear.

So I guess even though "I'm doing it wrong" by having the LFE roll off 12 db's per octave above 30hz I don't care because the results are exactly what I always craved in here!!

There is a new growing problem, the projector image slides down from the bass vibration more than ever. I had to adjust it at least 20 times during the movie last night. Haha, no one even noticed when I told them after the movie that I did that. So I have to figure out something to fix that promlem. Before I got the 215's the ONLY time that happened was during crazy demo's. Last night we were watching at -10 which wasn't crazy at all (bass was nuts, speaker volume was just right IMO) but the projector couldn't handle the bass.


Wow, this post really got away from me. I'm probably talking to myself at this point.
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post #23247 of 30574 Old 09-14-2014, 09:58 AM
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Interesting discussion guys. I have had several conversations with Jeff and he admires Mark Seatons active DSP approach with the Catalysts. So much so, that he is always happy when his speakers are compared favorably with the Cats in terms of SQ. Mark gets a lot out of those speakers with his active DSP and the only cost is dynamic output. That is the sweet spot for JTR and not everyone cares.

I am one of the ones who does.

Along those lines, I had JF56 over for a demo yesterday. It is really fun for me to watch someone experience the HT when I let it "off the chain". It is dangerous for the hearing and I don't do it very often but it is really fun when I do. The point here is that JF56 has 212 LCR's, 228 surrounds and an Orbit Shifter in his home theater. What he doesn't have is a treated dedicated room. His comments kept coming back to the room and it's ability to allow for louder without overloading. It may be that DSP can produce a similar result but I believe that the price for this is loss of dynamics.

If you do all of your listening at well below reference then there are many speakers that can do an amazing job with music. My Revel Ultima Studio 2's with JL Fathom subs come to mind as well as Vandersteen, and several others. These speakers need to be integrated with really good subs in order for that magic to happen and even then, it only works at non amplified levels.

Based upon my music tastes, a dedicated two channel system featuring Revels, Vantersteens and perhaps M2's would be fun but for M/C music and movies, I'd take the 215RT's, Noesis or even T12's and OS's in a treated dedicated room all day long ...
No question that the active crossover is an advantage for the Cats, although good passive crossovers + good amps can come pretty close. The coaxes and horns in the Noesis speakers have their own advantages.

The dispersion and frequency response differences are very room dependent, which is probably why we see so many conflicting opinions on all the heavy hitter HT speakers.

IMO, it would be interesting if speaker designers assumed that the speakers would be combined with room EQ, so they wouldn't have have to make trade offs for frequency response curves when designing speakers and passive crossovers.

Similar to the way some newer camera lenses are intended to be combined with camera processing, so they can focus optical trade offs on the aspects that can't be digitally corrected.
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post #23248 of 30574 Old 09-14-2014, 10:40 AM
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This will be way too much information but I love reading these kinds of posts from other rooms so here goes.


I am not using EQ for anything, just the dynamic eq to get a house curve for the speakers. For 2 weeks now (which is a long time for me) I have settled on running my mains large BUT with the subs on as well. I have the subs only playing from 30hz and down but with a shallow slope of 12 db's per octave on the low pass filter it's obvious when the subs are on even for music. I would have thought that a 30hz low pass on the subs would only make the subs noticeable for movies but that's not the case, they work great for music too.

I'm very happy with this current setup because for the first time EVER I don't have to change anything when switching from music to movies except for turning down the sub trim a few db's depending on the movie. With the speakers running full range and the subs on they blend great as long as I use a 12 db or 6 db slope. I haven't experimented much with how the 6 db LPF on the subs sounds but I plan to.


Here is what I am using currently with the inuke dsp that powers my mains, no PEQ:







I don't like the bass to get softer as the volume goes up so I'm actually not using the dynamic eq function for it's intended purpose, instead just to create the house curve I like.


I'm using a low shelf boost for the subs:






Now, here is what I am currently using for a LPF for the subs. 30 hz with a 12 db slope.





So, at 60 hz I'm obviously down 12 db's from my sub output. The combination of this plus the dynamic eq on my main speakers gives me a great house curve that I'm currently loving. Here is what it measures like:







I often go even hotter with the subs than ^. My room/signal chain drops like a rock below 12 hz or so, so maybe some day I'll address that.



Now, here is the problem and it didn't occur to me until yesterday while I was mowing the lawn. My AVR will route the LFE channel to the mains but only if the subs are not on. When I route the bass to both the mains and the subs as I'm currently doing only the subs get the LFE channel. It would seem I'm severly neutering my LFE channel since I have them low passed at 30hz 12 db slope. HOWEVER!!! I have to say that movies sound/feel better than they ever have. I recently watched Ender's Game and last night we had a ton of my wife's family over for Captain America 2. The bass was exactly how I like it. Never a hint of boom just violent, intense, and feel more than hear.

So I guess even though "I'm doing it wrong" by having the LFE roll off 12 db's per octave above 30hz I don't care because the results are exactly what I always craved in here!!

There is a new growing problem, the projector image slides down from the bass vibration more than ever. I had to adjust it at least 20 times during the movie last night. Haha, no one even noticed when I told them after the movie that I did that. So I have to figure out something to fix that promlem. Before I got the 215's the ONLY time that happened was during crazy demo's. Last night we were watching at -10 which wasn't crazy at all (bass was nuts, speaker volume was just right IMO) but the projector couldn't handle the bass.


Wow, this post really got away from me. I'm probably talking to myself at this point.
Thanks Carp! No man, not talking to yourself. You had my attention the whole time.

Any particular reason you chose a 12 dB slope and not a steeper slope, like 24 or 48 dB? The whole issue of phase has got to be involved in the answer here, but I don't know where . I've always pretty much just thrown a dart at the board to choose my slopes for the HPF/LPF. I'm pretty sure there's a better way though .

As to the 30 Hz HPF on the LFE, I agree with you that it's not enough to worry about, particularly if the system is otherwise performing awesome. You don't want to screw the whole SQ pooch to hear a fly fart at 120 Hz on the LFE channel
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post #23249 of 30574 Old 09-14-2014, 10:55 AM
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Thanks Carp! No man, not talking to yourself. You had my attention the whole time.

Any particular reason you chose a 12 dB slope and not a steeper slope, like 24 or 48 dB? The whole issue of phase has got to be involved in the answer here, but I don't know where . I've always pretty much just thrown a dart at the board to choose my slopes for the HPF/LPF. I'm pretty sure there's a better way though .

As to the 30 Hz HPF on the LFE, I agree with you that it's not enough to worry about, particularly if the system is otherwise performing awesome. You don't want to screw the whole SQ pooch to hear a fly fart at 120 Hz on the LFE channel

I also throw a dart for xo slopes (and other params too). For me the key is measuring before and after changes and seeing the impact. I probably did over 30 permutations for slope xo and type with the mini dsp for three sub arrangement. Just checking how the phase shifts and how different parts of the FR were affected. Of course computers can predict the outcome of all available permutations much faster and choose the best option Overtime I imagine people also get very good at predicting but room acoustics is complicated so empirical testing and verification is usually the best.


Now predicting your wife's response to your spending 5hrs tuning the bass response in your HT (or in her terms fiddling with the stereo) does not take much experience. The answer to resolve is also simple and straight forward (no computer needed). Bring gifts!
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Pre-Pro: Emotiva XMC-1, DSP: Mini DSP 2x4 balanced
Amplifier: Sunfire TGA7400, Lab Gruppen FP10000Q
Speakers: JTR Noesis 212HT (LCR), JTR Slant 8's (surrounds), 3 Orbit Shifter LFU's
Sources: PS3, HTPC, Dish Network
Projector: Epson 8350
Screen: Seymour XD AT 138" diagonal 16:9
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post #23250 of 30574 Old 09-14-2014, 10:59 AM
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Thanks Carp! No man, not talking to yourself. You had my attention the whole time.

Any particular reason you chose a 12 dB slope and not a steeper slope, like 24 or 48 dB? The whole issue of phase has got to be involved in the answer here, but I don't know where . I've always pretty much just thrown a dart at the board to choose my slopes for the HPF/LPF. I'm pretty sure there's a better way though .

As to the 30 Hz HPF on the LFE, I agree with you that it's not enough to worry about, particularly if the system is otherwise performing awesome. You don't want to screw the whole SQ pooch to hear a fly fart at 120 Hz on the LFE channel

The steeper slopes cause a big null at 50hz (so like you say phase/distance issues), so my options are 12 or 6 db slopes. I decided on 30 hz LPF from trial and error. Evidently my ears like an even bigger house curve than I thought, in the past I like a response that stayed relatively flat to 80hz (as you go from left to right on a graph) before the curve started dropping but I really think I like this new curve better.
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