Official JTR speaker thread - Page 775 - AVS Forum
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post #23221 of 24786 Old 09-13-2014, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
@rcohen Yea, but that FR is not the on axis response. It's the entire horizontal and vertical listening window of 60 degrees horizontal and 20 degrees vertical

That's why when you sit anywhere between these speakers it sounds the same. And I mean THE same.
Room be damned!
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post #23222 of 24786 Old 09-13-2014, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Okay so what's the consensuses on the Wyred 4 Sound amps, are they extremely quite to use with JTR speakers? I'm now thinking I'll sell my Sherbourn PA 7-350 and get a Wyred 4 Sound MC7150 amp.
I thought you liked the Funk amps ?
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post #23223 of 24786 Old 09-13-2014, 02:47 PM
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I thought you liked the Funk amps ?

I really do, but the Funk amp is a two channel and I'm only going to be using this amp to power my speakers so I'm not sure that I need 4.8kW....lol


The MC7150 is a 7 channel amp that puts out over 300watts per channel @ 4ohms.
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post #23224 of 24786 Old 09-13-2014, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Okay so what's the consensuses on the Wyred 4 Sound amps, are they extremely quite to use with JTR speakers? I'm now thinking I'll sell my Sherbourn PA 7-350 and get a Wyred 4 Sound MC7150 amp.
Having used neither, I've been partial to the DSonic as everything I've read has been good and it is supposedly less expensive than the Wyred 4 Sound. But either would likely be great.
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post #23225 of 24786 Old 09-13-2014, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
I really do, but the Funk amp is a two channel and I'm only going to be using this amp to power my speakers so I'm not sure that I need 4.8kW....lol


The MC7150 is a 7 channel amp that puts out over 300watts per channel @ 4ohms.
I was just looking at the D sonics a little while ago. I like how they break up the power to give the right power to the bigger and smaller speakers.
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post #23226 of 24786 Old 09-13-2014, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
Here they are at RMAF. They sound pretty clear over my computer speakers. I wonder if they will be there this year? In talks with the wife about going this year. However she wants to goto Cape Cod and Martha's Vineyard.

Has anybody ever heard the JBL synthesis 1400 array?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXmPHoG0rps
Reef - if you were closer and we knew each other better, I'd come over and knock you over the head. $20,000 speakers sound good over your computer speakers? Really? LOL!
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post #23227 of 24786 Old 09-13-2014, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Having used neither, I've been partial to the DSonic as everything I've read has been good and it is supposedly less expensive than the Wyred 4 Sound. But either would likely be great.
I agree, I actually really wanted a D-sonic but I'd like to get a 7 channel amp and the smallest unit they offer has 400watts per channel which is more then I need and costs a $1000 more then the MC7150.
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post #23228 of 24786 Old 09-13-2014, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
I agree, I actually really wanted a D-sonic but I'd like to get a 7 channel amp and the smallest unit they offer has 400watts per channel which is more then I need and costs a $1000 more then the MC7150.
Statements like that will get your card pulled...I'm sure you miscommunicated what you really meant. Right?

Edit: So you meant it was more than you wanted to spend, not that there was too much power, which we all know from being in the JTR thread so long...there is no such thing as too much power.
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post #23229 of 24786 Old 09-13-2014, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post
Room be damned!
Correct!
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post #23230 of 24786 Old 09-13-2014, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Okay so what's the consensuses on the Wyred 4 Sound amps, are they extremely quite to use with JTR speakers? I'm now thinking I'll sell my Sherbourn PA 7-350 and get a Wyred 4 Sound MC7150 amp.
I can't believe how many guys have/are selling this amp! I use it with my 228s and love it. It looks great, works great and just flat out screams quality.

I hear a tiny bit of noise out of them when I get within 5 or 6 feet of them and the volume is near zero, of course, when do I do that? When I play music or movies at normal to loud volumes it is a beautiful thing.

JTR Noesis 228 (LCR)
Polk Audio LSiM 703 (Surrounds)
Seaton SubMersive HP Plus and Minus (Subs)
Denon 3312 (Receiver)
Sherbourn PA 7-350 (Amp)
Oppo BDP-103 (BluRay Player)
Sharp 80" 3D
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post #23231 of 24786 Old 09-13-2014, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by rangers View Post
I can't believe how many guys have/are selling this amp! I use it with my 228s and love it. It looks great, works great and just flat out screams quality.

I hear a tiny bit of noise out of them when I get within 5 or 6 feet of them and the volume is near zero, of course, when do I do that? When I play music or movies at normal to loud volumes it is a beautiful thing.
You're right it's a great amp, it's just a beast!.....lol
I just want to try something different and I've actually always wanted a D-sonic or Wyred 4 Sound amp long before I ever had my Sherbourn.
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post #23232 of 24786 Old 09-13-2014, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
You're right it's a great amp, it's just a beast!.....lol
I just want to try something different and I've actually always wanted a D-sonic or Wyred 4 Sound amp long before I ever had my Sherbourn.
I had the MC7 (3x500W, 4x250W) and it was a great amp. The D-Sonic appears to be it's equal at equivalent power levels and a bit cheaper. But for you the MC7-150 seems like a good choice. BTW, I also had the W4S ST stereo amp with the 150W power modules driving my height speaker (9.1) and it had no problem keeping up.

HToM

"Well, la di fricken da."!
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post #23233 of 24786 Old 09-13-2014, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
I had the MC7 (3x500W, 4x250W) and it was a great amp. The D-Sonic appears to be it's equal at equivalent power levels and a bit cheaper. But for you the MC7-150 seems like a good choice. BTW, I also had the W4S ST stereo amp with the 150W power modules driving my height speaker (9.1) and it had no problem keeping up.

Thanks for the feed back Rob, it's much appreciated. I was kind of hoping you'd weigh in with your opinion as I knew you had Wyred 4 Sound amps. I'm actually found a black MMC-7 for $1950 that I'm seriously thinking about buying too. Hmmm
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post #23234 of 24786 Old 09-13-2014, 04:23 PM
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@popalock


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The Linear Spatial Reference (LSR) philosophy is based on a set of design goals that carefully control the overall performance of the system in a variety of acoustic spaces. Instead of focusing on a simple measurement such as on-axis frequency response, JBL measures systems in a field 360 degrees around the speaker and engineers the entire system to ensure off-axis response reflected to the mix position is also smooth and accurate. JBL defines the ultimate performance specification for new systems – what it will sound like in your room. At the mix position, you hear a combination of direct sound and sound reflected from the rooms surfaces. For sound arriving at the mix position to be smooth and neutral, it is not enough for a speaker to measure “flat” on-axis - it is essential the speaker have excellent off-axis performance.



While other manufacturers use a single on-axis frequency response measurement taken at one point in space, JBL measures monitor systems over a sphere that encompasses all power radiated into the listening room – in every direction. This data reflects 1296 times the information of a single on-axis response curve. Seventy-two measurements of the direct sound field, the reflected sound field, and the reverberant field, the entire sound field heard by the listener, is correlated to optimize response at the listening position. In place of spectral smoothing used by some manufacturers, which actually conceals data, the JBL approach actually exposes flaws in systems, such as resonances, poor dispersion and other causes of off-axis coloration. The data shown below is a set of spatially measured graphs that are the heart of JBL’s philosophy.
You're a skeptic, that's cool. I listened to them and I'm a believer. Peace out

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post #23235 of 24786 Old 09-13-2014, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
@popalock




You're a skeptic, that's cool. I listened to them and I'm a believer. Peace out
Dayum. Sh** just got real
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post #23236 of 24786 Old 09-13-2014, 04:54 PM
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What?!! ^^

Nothing meant by what I posted. I think pop doesn't believe speakers can be designed to work in the same way in different rooms. Am I right about that pop? I don't blame him for that position as I'm not aware of anyone else that has been able to pull it off at this level. And quite frankly, it takes an exceptional design and speaker to pull it off and I don't think most manufacturers have the know how and/or the resources/facilities to do it if they wanted to. I'm also sure the M2's wouldn't work right in EVERY room, but I do think the design paradigm works in common rooms.

I have no animus toward popalock, it's just a speaker. I'm actually looking forward to him hearing some M2's one day and his impressions.
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post #23237 of 24786 Old 09-13-2014, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
What?!! ^^

Nothing meant by what I posted. I think pop doesn't believe speakers can be designed to work in the same way in different rooms. Am I right about that pop? I don't blame him for that position as I'm not aware of anyone else that has been able to pull it off at this level. And quite frankly, it takes an exceptional design and speaker to pull it off and I don't think most manufacturers have the know how and/or the resources/facilities to do it if they wanted to. I'm also sure the M2's wouldn't work right in EVERY room, but I do think the design paradigm works in common rooms.

I have no animus toward popalock, it's just a speaker. I'm actually looking forward to him hearing some M2's one day and his impressions.
Sounds like someone needs to host a GTG so that the M2's can throw down!
I have speaker envy....lol Although I can't say that my wallet would agree!
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post #23238 of 24786 Old 09-13-2014, 06:21 PM
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post #23239 of 24786 Old 09-13-2014, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
What?!! ^^

Nothing meant by what I posted. I think pop doesn't believe speakers can be designed to work in the same way in different rooms. Am I right about that pop? I don't blame him for that position as I'm not aware of anyone else that has been able to pull it off at this level. And quite frankly, it takes an exceptional design and speaker to pull it off and I don't think most manufacturers have the know how and/or the resources/facilities to do it if they wanted to. I'm also sure the M2's wouldn't work right in EVERY room, but I do think the design paradigm works in common rooms.

I have no animus toward popalock, it's just a speaker. I'm actually looking forward to him hearing some M2's one day and his impressions.
It was just a Popalock joke. It is all in good fun.
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post #23240 of 24786 Old 09-13-2014, 10:24 PM
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Lol...it's all good guys.

@Gooddoc
I can't wait to get a chance to hear the M2. No question they are world class.

I haven't had a chance to look into what you posted. Can you provide a source, please. What you described (or quoted) sounds like JBL processing (in room). The M2's are passive monitors, correct? Did you purchase a (the?) JBL processing unit to go with the M2's?

When you demoed the M2's was it in 2 channel pure direct? Or was their any other processing in the mix that you were aware of?

To take a speaker and throw it into any room, then say that it can overcome the acoustical challnges presented by that unique space sounds...a bit...unrealistic. I mean, there are literally millions of variables to overcome from an acoustical standpoint.

So yes, I am a skeptic. I blame all the other extreme right wing #AVSObjectivists for jading me.


Last edited by popalock; 09-13-2014 at 10:27 PM.
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post #23241 of 24786 Old 09-13-2014, 10:58 PM
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It was just a Popalock joke. It is all in good fun.
Poplock's not really known to be the joking type!...lol
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post #23242 of 24786 Old 09-14-2014, 12:18 AM
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Poplock's not really known to be the joking type!...lol
I never never joke. Ever.

Life is too short for that $hit. Besides, humor is subjective...Ain't nobody got time for that!
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post #23243 of 24786 Old 09-14-2014, 01:15 AM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post
Lol...it's all good guys.

@Gooddoc
I can't wait to get a chance to hear the M2. No question they are world class.

I haven't had a chance to look into what you posted. Can you provide a source, please. What you described (or quoted) sounds like JBL processing (in room). The M2's are passive monitors, correct? Did you purchase a (the?) JBL processing unit to go with the M2's?

When you demoed the M2's was it in 2 channel pure direct? Or was their any other processing in the mix that you were aware of?

To take a speaker and throw it into any room, then say that it can overcome the acoustical challnges presented by that unique space sounds...a bit...unrealistic. I mean, there are literally millions of variables to overcome from an acoustical standpoint.

So yes, I am a skeptic. I blame all the other extreme right wing #AVSObjectivists for jading me.

I have had a chance to demo the JBL synthesis at a local dealer. According to him, the JBL synthesis speakers comes with a processor and you have to place 8 microphones around the room and it auto-corrects for the 'in-room response'. I have a feeling that that processor does a little bit more than what audyssey does.

I think I am sort of sold to the idea of a processor that can correct for room response. I said 'sort of' because I don't believe it can correct for low bass for instance. You can cut off bass if the room is building up room modes, but not sure how that would be 'good'. I like strong bass overpowering you when it first hits, then disappears,... that requires a 'cancelling' source like huge bass traps or perhaps another sub placed at the back that cancel off the first wave... i doubt any processor can do that job.

But for most frequencies, perhaps a processor can do 90% of the job.

I am no expert, but this is all just my own speculation after hearing what i hear...
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post #23244 of 24786 Old 09-14-2014, 01:23 AM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post
Lol...it's all good guys.

@Gooddoc
I can't wait to get a chance to hear the M2. No question they are world class.

I haven't had a chance to look into what you posted. Can you provide a source, please. What you described (or quoted) sounds like JBL processing (in room). The M2's are passive monitors, correct? Did you purchase a (the?) JBL processing unit to go with the M2's?

When you demoed the M2's was it in 2 channel pure direct? Or was their any other processing in the mix that you were aware of?

To take a speaker and throw it into any room, then say that it can overcome the acoustical challnges presented by that unique space sounds...a bit...unrealistic. I mean, there are literally millions of variables to overcome from an acoustical standpoint.

So yes, I am a skeptic. I blame all the other extreme right wing #AVSObjectivists for jading me.

Actually, rooms really aren't the major problem. Right? I mean we talk all day in them without ever thinking we need to EQ them. And if someone were to play an instrument in a room we would think it sounds beautiful, no? I know I've never once thought anything but how beautiful the piano sounds in my room when my daughter plays. Or how awesome my friends guitar sounds in the room when he plays. No EQ or treatments necessary.

Sure, I've no doubt that treating the room acoustically could improve all of it, but they're really good on their own. Way better than what happens when I put typical speakers in there. Why is that? It's not the room, but the speaker that is the problem!! It sucks at being a sound source and creates it's own problems.

That Linear Spatial Reference design paradigm that I quoted earlier is all about fixing that problem. It's a Floyd/Toole approach of integrating the room response, or total sound power, into the speaker design and using spatial response measurements and psychoacoustic principles to treat the room and the speaker as a system. Good source, less room problem. The M2 simply represents the technical prowess to showcase the merits of their approach. So this whole "Master Reference Monitor" thing is really as much about proving a design philosophy for JBL as it is about making a great speaker.

And when you hear it you know right away they got it right. It's not a gimmick or BS acronym or slogan. It's solid engineering and a lot of research coming together to solve real problems.

Bass problems below Shroeder are not addressable with this LSR approach though, so acoustic treatments for room modal issues are still as necessary as they've always been.

As to processing, the M2's need either the Crown Itech 5000HD amps with the integrated London Soundweb Processing built in, or a separate BSS processor needs to be purchased. The processor stores the active filters and also integrates with the JBL Audio Architect software via the network to allow for measuring and EQ capability via PC. So the active filters and EQ curves are completely user modifiable for room tuning and multiple curves can be stored and utilized. It's like a miniDSP.

Edit: no processing on demo. Just pure direct through pro gear. There was no AVR.

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post #23245 of 24786 Old 09-14-2014, 01:43 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
I have had a chance to demo the JBL synthesis at a local dealer. According to him, the JBL synthesis speakers comes with a processor and you have to place 8 microphones around the room and it auto-corrects for the 'in-room response'. I have a feeling that that processor does a little bit more than what audyssey does.

I think I am sort of sold to the idea of a processor that can correct for room response. I said 'sort of' because I don't believe it can correct for low bass for instance. You can cut off bass if the room is building up room modes, but not sure how that would be 'good'. I like strong bass overpowering you when it first hits, then disappears,... that requires a 'cancelling' source like huge bass traps or perhaps another sub placed at the back that cancel off the first wave... i doubt any processor can do that job.

But for most frequencies, perhaps a processor can do 90% of the job.

I am no expert, but this is all just my own speculation after hearing what i hear...
The M2 has none of the Synthesis room correction stuff. What you're talking about is ARCOS, which is essentially JBL's version of Audyssey that also integrates with their Sound Field Management, or SFM, which is the Harman research distributed subwoofer bass management solution.

You are correct though that the Linear Spatial Reference approach of the M2 does not solve issues related to room modal problems below Schroeder. Acoustic treatments and proper sub placement via SFM are necessary to deal with those, or EQ like Audyssey.

As I understand it, It's the region from 300 Hz or so up to about 10 KHz that can be impacted by proper speaker design and attention to room power response, and this is where the LSR design focuses. But it's not about EQ, it's about speaker design and crossover selection because you can't EQ away speaker directivity or dispersion defects that negatively impact the room power response.
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post #23246 of 24786 Old 09-14-2014, 01:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
The M2 has none of the Synthesis room correction stuff. What you're talking about is ARCOS, which is essentially JBL's version of Audyssey that also integrates with their Sound Field Management, or SFM, which is the Harman research distributed subwoofer bass management solution.

You are correct though that the Linear Spatial Reference approach of the M2 does not solve issues related to room modal problems below Schroeder. Acoustic treatments and proper sub placement via SFM are necessary to deal with those, or EQ like Audyssey.

As I understand it, It's the region from 300 Hz or so up to about 10 KHz that can be impacted by proper speaker design and attention to room power response, and this is where the LSR design focuses. But it's not about EQ, it's about speaker design and crossover selection because you can't EQ away speaker directivity or dispersion defects that negatively impact the room power response.

Ah IC... sounds like a winner... I might have to find a way to audition one of these M2s...
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post #23247 of 24786 Old 09-14-2014, 02:03 AM
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So how was the Synthesis demo?
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post #23248 of 24786 Old 09-14-2014, 03:14 AM
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post #23249 of 24786 Old 09-14-2014, 04:09 AM
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So how was the Synthesis demo?
THe one I heard uses the in-wall speakers...

http://www.jblsynthesis.com/Products/Details/129 plus 2x12 inch subs.

They sound ok to me (better than most home theater setups in my country)... Of course no where close to my Noesis/Orbit Shifter combination.

They just got in the bigger brother S4700 floor standing speakers.

http://www.jblsynthesis.com/Products/Details/149

IT's not setup yet so I haven't had a chance to listen to them. They said it might be a few months to get setup because they are also waiting for the processor to arrive to set the new system up properly.

In my own personal opinion, I am sure all the gadgets like a processor, etc, could add something to the overall sound quality, I think 90% of the entire sound quality lies in Speakers + Room Acoustics.

Chasing the last 10% is expensive and probably not for me (cause I can't afford it).
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post #23250 of 24786 Old 09-14-2014, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
In my own personal opinion, I am sure all the gadgets like a processor, etc, could add something to the overall sound quality, I think 90% of the entire sound quality lies in Speakers + Room Acoustics.

Chasing the last 10% is expensive and probably not for me (cause I can't afford it).
IMO, times have changed, and good DSP now belongs in the same category as Speakers and Room Acoustics as major contributors to sound quality. It makes just as much as an impact as speakers & acoustics - not subtle, like amps, DACs, or wires.
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