Official JTR speaker thread - Page 780 - AVS Forum
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post #23371 of 23395 Old Yesterday, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post
Dave - Try running them directly from the 4520. Do they sound fairly normal in that scenario?
Agreed. When I got mine home that first night I just used my AVR and listened for a few hours. I loved them from the get go even though I knew I would be boosting the bass when I got them hooked up to my inuke dsp.

I see people saying the 215's are more laid back than the 212's. I have not found that to be the case but we might be talking about 2 different things. I feel like the 215's have more energy way up high, like above 8- 10khz - the frequencies that I like that give a more sparkly/sizzle sound.

The 215's do measure higher above 10hz but I'm not sure I trust the accuracy of the omnimic that high up.

The 215's also just seem to have more "presence" to them. Since I got them I turn up my 212 center channel a couple of db's which subjectively seems to match the 212 to the 215's in volume. When I had all 212's up front keeping the center the exact same volume as the l and r speakers seemed perfect.


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post #23372 of 23395 Old Yesterday, 03:29 PM
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I can sure understand a pair of 215RTs for a 2 channel music setup. Should be incredible!
For myself, in a combo movie music all purpose room, my 228HTs and Submersives work nice and were super easy to implement with no special amps or other hardware needed. Would think the 215RMs with equal quality subs would be ideal in my case and no special effort to get up and running.

Wish there was posts from others here with a front of RMs and subs to get some comments. Would like to know the benefits and possible negatives of the RMs as they are a sealed design as I understand it. Would like some comparisons to the 212HTs and 228HTs in use. Very few here using the RMs it seems other than as a center channel with 215RTs.
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post #23373 of 23395 Old Yesterday, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post
Dave - Try running them directly from the 4520. Do they sound fairly normal in that scenario?
My daughter got confirmed today, so not much time to fool around. Went out after for a big Italian dinner and I feel like a blob. I am going to head out there in a bit and light it up.

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Originally Posted by carp View Post
Agreed. When I got mine home that first night I just used my AVR and listened for a few hours. I loved them from the get go even though I knew I would be boosting the bass when I got them hooked up to my inuke dsp.

I see people saying the 215's are more laid back than the 212's. I have not found that to be the case but we might be talking about 2 different things. I feel like the 215's have more energy way up high, like above 8- 10khz - the frequencies that I like that give a more sparkly/sizzle sound.

The 215's do measure higher above 10hz but I'm not sure I trust the accuracy of the omnimic that high up.

The 215's also just seem to have more "presence" to them. Since I got them I turn up my 212 center channel a couple of db's which subjectively seems to match the 212 to the 215's in volume. When I had all 212's up front keeping the center the exact same volume as the l and r speakers seemed perfect.
I only fooled around a little bit last night, but they do seem laid back to me compared to the 212's, but it was late and I really did not push them. My AVR was also shutting down for a little bit till I figured that out. They defiantly are not bright, the 212's seem much brighter to me. I will add something is holding back my highs and I don't know what it is. Do you bypass the PEQ Carp? right now mine seem like they have bag over them. I need to unleash the fury LOL

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post #23374 of 23395 Old Yesterday, 06:27 PM
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Why is your AVR shutting down if you are running them off an iNuke?

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #23375 of 23395 Old Yesterday, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
My daughter got confirmed today, so not much time to fool around. Went out after for a big Italian dinner and I feel like a blob. I am going to head out there in a bit and light it up.

I only fooled around a little bit last night, but they do seem laid back to me compared to the 212's, but it was late and I really did not push them. My AVR was also shutting down for a little bit till I figured that out. They defiantly are not bright, the 212's seem much brighter to me. I will add something is holding back my highs and I don't know what it is. Do you bypass the PEQ Carp? right now mine seem like they have bag over them. I need to unleash the fury LOL
No peq I only use the dynamic eq. Hmmm something is weird. Hook them up to just your avr and see how they sound. Like Jonathan said I don't understand why the avr would shut down when you aren't even using the amps in the avr...


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post #23376 of 23395 Old Yesterday, 07:53 PM
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Why is your AVR shutting down if you are running them off an iNuke?
I have no idea? I must have something set wrong. I think I had the gain to low and the AVR was running to hard? It did once tonight. When the AVR does shut off, I notice the fan on the inuke is racing? I have only had the Denon shut down once and that was because I put a hurting on it.

I did figure out the hiss, it was the PEQ. I shut it off (bypass) and silence. I reset it and made some adjustments, but it seems the more you gain on the PEQ the more hiss you get. I have a tiny bit right now, but nothing like I did earlier. With that I have to say I used the graphic EQ in the 4520 along with the PEQ in the inuke and these speakers are downright fabulous. I am in love. Going to need some more bass, but I have that covered I'm happy. I have yet to watch a full movie, so that is going to be the other test.

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post #23377 of 23395 Old Today, 06:00 AM
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Well I spent a good portion of the night listening to music and the 215's just do music so well. The one thing I noticed is they need to be played loud! They don't seem to shine like the 212's at lower volumes and rightly so. Overall I am very happy with the way they do music, but not so happy with movies. I don't have my surrounds up yet as I have not had time to get them mounted, but just listening to the front 3, something does not seem right and again I could have something not set right, it could be a million things. My AVR is acting up also, I was having problems last night with it not accepting commands. I had to unplug it twice. I will explain the best I can. It seems for me to get the dialog of the movie to sound good I have to crank it up, but when any LFE hits, it is just so loud and overpowering, it sometimes is to much, actually it is to much. It also does not have that sparkle, like in WOW, the glass does not seem crisp and life like, but more dull. Going to work on getting some stuff done out there today, surrounds are #1 and panels are right behind and then some more tuning later in the day. I am really hoping I can get this worked out. Again music is incredible with the 215's, I did some Pink Floyd later in the night and I was smiling, that good.

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post #23378 of 23395 Old Today, 06:17 AM
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You really should bring over someone who has a lot of experience with DSP's / Receivers/ Amps to help you. Everything you feel is wrong with the 215RT's is likely setup issues.

Please reset your micro processor in your receiver a couple times then try again as well. Read the manual on how to do this.
(this will delete any Audyssey calibration you have done as well.)

Wish I was closer to you and I would come over to help, but any others in or near Florida willing to help?


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post #23379 of 23395 Old Today, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
You really should bring over someone who has a lot of experience with DSP's / Receivers/ Amps to help you. Everything you feel is wrong with the 215RT's is likely setup issues.

Please reset your micro processor in your receiver a couple times then try again as well. Read the manual on how to do this.
I was going to do a hard reset and go back to factory new and just start all over again. I will be the first to admit that I am really new at the dsp thing. I have to say I feel like I have it set well with music, it is just the movies that seem flat. The word around the campfire is that these are not movie speakers, but I am hoping for better than this. I am going to run just the AVR today at some point and see how that goes. I don't live in FL, I was just fooling around with my location. That is where I want to be, however you are still very far from em, but thanks for offer anyway.

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post #23380 of 23395 Old Today, 06:28 AM
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Sounds like your receiver may be source of your troubles with movies. Seems odd that it keeps shutting down and/or needs to be reset.

Seems like it is always something. I rewired my system last week to clean up the massive tangle of wires. Instead of helping I now have a hum that I did not have when the cables were a mess. Opposite of what one would expect.

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post #23381 of 23395 Old Today, 06:35 AM
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What campfire? haha.

I will say mine work great for Movies.


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post #23382 of 23395 Old Today, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
I was going to do a hard reset and go back to factory new and just start all over again. I will be the first to admit that I am really new at the dsp thing. I have to say I feel like I have it set well with music, it is just the movies that seem flat. The word around the campfire is that these are not movie speakers , but I am hoping for better than this. I am going to run just the AVR today at some point and see how that goes. I don't live in FL, I was just fooling around with my location. That is where I want to be, however you are still very far from em, but thanks for offer anyway.
While I am not a 215 owner (I have the 212s), I doubt very many people would express it this way. A good speaker is a good speaker and should be able to excel at both movies and music. I think the reason we see the 215s being mentioned with music is because you can run them for 2 channel music at full range and don't need a sub..whereas a speaker like the 212s needs subs to run full range 2 channel music.


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post #23383 of 23395 Old Today, 06:44 AM
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Actually can we get some feedback from 212HT user who upgraded to 215RT's.

When you "upgraded" do you feel it is:

Not as good as the 212HT for Movies

About the Same as the 212HT for Movies

Better then the 212HT for Movies?



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Anyone else?


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post #23384 of 23395 Old Today, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
Actually can we get some feedback from 212HT user who upgraded to 215RT's.

When you "upgraded" do you feel it is:

Not as good as the 212HT for Movies

About the Same as the 212HT for Movies

Better then the 212HT for Movies?



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Anyone else?
Just to add, Jeff was the first person to tell me that the 212's were more dynamic and would be better for movies. But yeah, user feedback is defiantly the real answer here. There is also a few other people that have the 215's and I have not seen or heard from them in awhile. Would like to hear from them also.

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post #23385 of 23395 Old Today, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
Actually can we get some feedback from 212HT user who upgraded to 215RT's.

When you "upgraded" do you feel it is:

Not as good as the 212HT for Movies

About the Same as the 212HT for Movies

Better then the 212HT for Movies?



RMK!
CARP
Anyone else?
Umm, that would be a BIG negatore. If anything, the opposite is true due to the larger image the 215's throw. I feel the sound is a little better across all of my seats with the 215's. Actually, the 212's with well integrated subs are the equal of any system I have heard for movies at the main LP. For music, the 215's run full range (in the right room) from the LP are something special. If the dynamics are less with the 215RT's, it has gone unnoticed by me .... I think Jeff might be trying to discourage some from going with 215's due to setup complications. They are not plug and play speakers and it takes s little more work and setup to get them optimized.

There are many factors at play here and getting the speakers setup properly is job 1. There should be no hiss or hum coming from the speakers. Have you (Reef) tried the 212's with the current setup to see if you have the same or more hiss/hum?

Update, I do find that I run the 215RT's 2 (+/-) db louder than the 212's for action movies. That may be due to a slightly softer top end ...


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post #23386 of 23395 Old Today, 07:08 AM
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I feel the 215's are better than the 212's in every single way. My experience is very different from Reef's. I do agree they are a bit more laid back than the 212's but IMO that makes them that much better. I found the 212's bright at high volume but the 215's are much easier on the ears at high volume.
As for movies, again, I like the 215's better than the 212's as they seem to have more presence, like the wall of sund they emit seems epic at times .

It sure seems like Reef is having other issues in the chain. The good with music and not with movies thing never sits well with me, like Forlich says, a good speaker is a good speakers, if it does one thing well, it will do everything well.... until it's limits of course.
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post #23387 of 23395 Old Today, 08:14 AM
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Desertdome was able to accomplish the same via a rather complicated JRiver setup on my HTPC before SSP, but I found the Rane RPM88 much easier to use and understand due to the graphic display of the config with each of the modules adjustable in realtime.
Complicated? Only for the uninitiated.

I first did bass management on the rear surrounds with 24 dB/octave slopes (I think) on the high and low pass. This mixes the redirected bass with the LFE and maintains proper levels.



Then I added the LFE to the Left, Center, and Right speakers. When you split a signal to 3 coherent sources, you get a 9.54 increase in dB. So, by adding the LFE to the LCR, you almost increase the LFE by the 10 dB amount that is required. I added an extra .5 dB when mixing the LFE to each speaker for a 10.04 dB total increase. Close enough. This was then verified later with the Omnimic measurements.

All that was left was to put a 16 Hz High pass on the LCR, mute the sub output to not cause any downstream headroom problems in the receiver, and add a single PEQ filter. I think I had to pull the output down a little at 20 Hz, but I'm not sure.

All of these settings are realtime and changes can be instantly viewed with Omnimic.

I can't remember if we did level/delay settings in JRiver or just left the settings in your receiver.

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post #23388 of 23395 Old Today, 08:18 AM
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I have no idea? I must have something set wrong. I think I had the gain to low and the AVR was running to hard? It did once tonight. When the AVR does shut off, I notice the fan on the inuke is racing? I have only had the Denon shut down once and that was because I put a hurting on it.

I did figure out the hiss, it was the PEQ. I shut it off (bypass) and silence. I reset it and made some adjustments, but it seems the more you gain on the PEQ the more hiss you get. I have a tiny bit right now, but nothing like I did earlier. With that I have to say I used the graphic EQ in the 4520 along with the PEQ in the inuke and these speakers are downright fabulous. I am in love. Going to need some more bass, but I have that covered I'm happy. I have yet to watch a full movie, so that is going to be the other test.
PEQ will add hiss anytime you run a plethora of filters. The more you add, the further up the noise floor creeps. What are you filtering to begin with? It doesn't appear to me you have run sweeps yet, so what are you even basing these filters on?

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post #23389 of 23395 Old Today, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
Well I spent a good portion of the night listening to music and the 215's just do music so well. The one thing I noticed is they need to be played loud! They don't seem to shine like the 212's at lower volumes and rightly so. Overall I am very happy with the way they do music, but not so happy with movies. I don't have my surrounds up yet as I have not had time to get them mounted, but just listening to the front 3, something does not seem right and again I could have something not set right, it could be a million things. My AVR is acting up also, I was having problems last night with it not accepting commands. I had to unplug it twice. I will explain the best I can. It seems for me to get the dialog of the movie to sound good I have to crank it up, but when any LFE hits, it is just so loud and overpowering, it sometimes is to much, actually it is to much. It also does not have that sparkle, like in WOW, the glass does not seem crisp and life like, but more dull. Going to work on getting some stuff done out there today, surrounds are #1 and panels are right behind and then some more tuning later in the day. I am really hoping I can get this worked out. Again music is incredible with the 215's, I did some Pink Floyd later in the night and I was smiling, that good.
Dave did you switch back to the 4520 for power yet? When having ANY type of issues, eliminate as much complexity and as many variables as possible. If you insist on keeping the inuke in the chain, disable ALL of the PEQ/DSP functions. My guess is you either have some conflicting filters or crossovers engaged.


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post #23390 of 23395 Old Today, 08:47 AM
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I did figure out the hiss, it was the PEQ. I shut it off (bypass) and silence. I reset it and made some adjustments, but it seems the more you gain on the PEQ the more hiss you get.
What filters are you using? If you add any gain in iNuke without first reducing overall level you can clip the signal. Digital PEQ doesn't change the noise floor unless you are modifying the entire signal which nobody does. The noise floor always stays at the same level and some frequencies that have been modified by the PEQ can now be closer to the noise floor. The A/D and D/A conversion can increase the noise floor and improper levels within the DSP. I have an oscilliscope and an iNuke nu6000DSP here and may post some stuff if I get around to it. I haven't even opened the nu6000DSP yet.
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post #23391 of 23395 Old Today, 08:56 AM
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Complicated? Only for the uninitiated.

I first did bass management on the rear surrounds with 24 dB/octave slopes (I think) on the high and low pass. This mixes the redirected bass with the LFE and maintains proper levels.



Then I added the LFE to the Left, Center, and Right speakers. When you split a signal to 3 coherent sources, you get a 9.54 increase in dB. So, by adding the LFE to the LCR, you almost increase the LFE by the 10 dB amount that is required. I added an extra .5 dB when mixing the LFE to each speaker for a 10.04 dB total increase. Close enough. This was then verified later with the Omnimic measurements.

All that was left was to put a 16 Hz High pass on the LCR, mute the sub output to not cause any downstream headroom problems in the receiver, and add a single PEQ filter. I think I had to pull the output down a little at 20 Hz, but I'm not sure.

All of these settings are realtime and changes can be instantly viewed with Omnimic.

I can't remember if we did level/delay settings in JRiver or just left the settings in your receiver.

Trust me on this one DD, compared to the Rane, it's complicated and for now it is essentially unusable. How about (I'll compensate you for your time ) you remote desktop in and fix whatever it is I broke?

I need a quick primer and it would be worth it to me.


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post #23392 of 23395 Old Today, 08:57 AM
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If you allow spare headroom for DSP, that would raise the noise floor.

I don't have any audible noise with my 212s, even at a couple inches, through either the Parasound A51 or the Hypex NC400 amps. I'm running balanced XLRs from the pre-amps. The difference could also be environmental.


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post #23393 of 23395 Old Today, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
I feel the 215's are better than the 212's in every single way. My experience is very different from Reef's. I do agree they are a bit more laid back than the 212's but IMO that makes them that much better. I found the 212's bright at high volume but the 215's are much easier on the ears at high volume.
As for movies, again, I like the 215's better than the 212's as they seem to have more presence, like the wall of sund they emit seems epic at times .

It sure seems like Reef is having other issues in the chain. The good with music and not with movies thing never sits well with me, like Forlich says, a good speaker is a good speakers, if it does one thing well, it will do everything well.... until it's limits of course.

I agree with Nathan, I think the 215's are better at everything - EXCEPT - for those that have a very well treated and large room. In that case you might run into limits of the 215 if you like to watch movies over reference.

Looks like I'm the only guy that thinks the 215's have MORE energy in the upper frequencies, I'm not talking about the harsh stuff around 2-4khz, but the frequencies above 8-10khz which to me sound pleasing not harsh. It's the same CD so it makes no sense but that's my impression when I compare the 212 and 215. The highs on the 215 are more pleasing to my ears and seem to have more sizzle (sorry, don't know how else to describe it). This is why I'm surprised that Dave is hearing a muffled sound with the 215's for movies, the opposite is true for me.

For music it's a bigger difference in favor of the 215 IMO.

I still love the 212 though, don't get me wrong it's a great speaker.


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post #23394 of 23395 Old Today, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Umm, that would be a BIG negatore. If anything, the opposite is true due to the larger image the 215's throw. I feel the sound is a little better across all of my seats with the 215's. Actually, the 212's with well integrated subs are the equal of any system I have heard for movies at the main LP. For music, the 215's run full range (in the right room) from the LP are something special. If the dynamics are less with the 215RT's, it has gone unnoticed by me .... I think Jeff might be trying to discourage some from going with 215's due to setup complications. They are not plug and play speakers and it takes s little more work and setup to get them optimized.

There are many factors at play here and getting the speakers setup properly is job 1. There should be no hiss or hum coming from the speakers. Have you (Reef) tried the 212's with the current setup to see if you have the same or more hiss/hum?

Update, I do find that I run the 215RT's 2 (+/-) db louder than the 212's for action movies. That may be due to a slightly softer top end ...
The hiss is from the PEQ. I shut the PEQ off last night and reset it and the hiss disappeared, the speakers were silent. I also have no hum.

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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
PEQ will add hiss anytime you run a plethora of filters. The more you add, the further up the noise floor creeps. What are you filtering to begin with? It doesn't appear to me you have run sweeps yet, so what are you even basing these filters on?
I have not done sweeps yet. I have been short on time and have just been fooling around trying to get an idea of the Inuke DSP. I was adjusting the PEQ by ear in the 10K range to get a little more top end. Just boosting the DB's in the PEQ gave some more top end. I find these speakers with the inuke with no eq and the PEQ off sound dull and flat. But yes I will agree the PEQ will add some bad hiss.

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Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post
Dave did you switch back to the 4520 for power yet? When having ANY type of issues, eliminate as much complexity and as many variables as possible. If you insist on keeping the inuke in the chain, disable ALL of the PEQ/DSP functions. My guess is you either have some conflicting filters or crossovers engaged.
Not to sound sappy but I took all 3 of my pooches to the vet yesterday for test and shots and my older dog had a reaction to one of the shots. Around 4pm yesterday I was walking out the door and the dog was on the floor screaming in pain. We have been dealing with this all night and this morning. I cannot even pick the dog up and move her with out her screaming, it is really messed up, my wife is freaked out. So I got her to the vet this morning and she got a shot and she is now sleeping it off. I am really hoping to get out there today and sit down and just get some sweeps and some tinkering done. Not to mention my finishing work in the room. I also did a bone head move. I added the amp without putting the AVR amp into Pre out. Thats was my shutting down problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
What filters are you using? If you add any gain in iNuke without first reducing overall level you can clip the signal. Digital PEQ doesn't change the noise floor unless you are modifying the entire signal which nobody does. The noise floor always stays at the same level and some frequencies that have been modified by the PEQ can now be closer to the noise floor. The A/D and D/A conversion can increase the noise floor and improper levels within the DSP. I have an oscilliscope and an iNuke nu6000DSP here and may post some stuff if I get around to it. I haven't even opened the nu6000DSP yet.
As said just tinkering with the PEQ a little to get some more highs. Being new to the DSP there are million buttons and just trying to get a feel of what they all do.

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post #23395 of 23395 Old Today, 10:04 AM
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Dave, do you have acoustic treatments in that room yet? If I were you I would drag those 212's into the room and see if it's just a different room that's got your ears off kilter.

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