Official JTR speaker thread - Page 784 - AVS Forum
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post #23491 of 24781 Old 09-22-2014, 06:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post
I had read that too. That's probably why I was pleasantly surprised. lol
Like anything else you have to experience it for yourself. Early reports were Oblivion was lacking bass and we know how that turned out.

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Originally Posted by rhed View Post
Had Sunday off from work. Finally! Anyway had some time to position the speakers. The four slanted 8 has been up two weeks ago. But did not have the chance to even play with them. I've been so busy with work. My amps has been in but hadn't have a chance to picked them up. So probably Tuesday. Speaking of amps.. My local Berhinger dealer made a mistake on my order. I pre paid for 2 inukes 6000 dsp. But instead, 1 6000dsp and 1 3000dsp arrived. And since all the 6000 which was a on backed ordered all fulfilled. I would have to wait another 2 weeks. Yea, I was kinda pissed. So he called his Berhinger rep about it. And sent a 12000 dsp instead. And we made a deal. So I just owe 118$ more. So I guess that means I'm getting the 12000 dsp for 518$? Oh, well amp is a amp. Just be happy.
Anyway, today I just plugged in the speakers straight from the Pio sc-09. Turned off the quad S2's. Set the LCR's large. And "wow"! Amazing! I don't know what everyone mean bout laid back? But I guess I would never know. Because for me, from def tech Mythos ST to JTR 215's? That's a big improvement in soundstage and sq. meaning I never had the chance to go through the ladder of JTR lineup like most here. This speaker has lots of great bass. Though I'd still want my quad S2's on for deep diggin movies. But all what I was expectng in a full range speaker for 2 channel exceeded my expectations. Now remember now, these thoughts are just plug and play straight from the avr. Next weekend is when I start hooking up the inukes, run REW, and calibrate.
Btw, I'm in the market for a good PJ right now. Probably towards the end of the year. And a screen to drap over my 70" Elite led when time for movies. I'm gonna use the Elite for games a general viewing. So
my dual DIY FTW 21 build is gonna have to wait.. Lol. I need to upgrade my display. Besides, I think I should have enough bass for now.. Lol. Any thoughts on the jvc dla-x500r ?

Attachment 274498
That is great man. Good to finally hear from you. I am using the 3K dsp right now, but my second 6Kdsp just arrived on Saturday, so I am going to switch it out. I have a pair of 6Kdsps because I have a pair of subs coming next weekend. That 12K should give plenty of headroom for the 215's LOL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
Well they consider a flop if it doesn't have the ultra low bass. I certainly don't agree. I would ask...If you absolutely had to choose when building your dream room between 35hz up bass(35-80) or 35hz and below bass what would you choose? It has to be one section. The answer is obvious. So for these guys to call a ridiculous bass heavy movie a flop because it doesn't have the low end is...IMO...Now I do believe in the low stuff. I am flat to 8hz at my MLP and have examined the whole debate of chasing the low end. I have a very modest setup (2x 2400 Submersives) but sit pretty close and get great room gain. I feel it adds to the experience and is definitely better with it there. It's more realistic when an explosion or thundering something happens to have the un-hearable but feel-able bass supporting and providing a nice foundation for the bass we can hear. But I wouldn't call Pacific rim a flop, just lacking on the low low end is all.
I was watching STITD which some considered a flop, but on my 215's the bass was incredible. Nube over at Databass explains the bass pretty well as he does with every movie. As he mentioned the Ported guys probably loved this movie as it was loud bass. I myself thought that Pacific Rim was a let down and people came to it's defense. As you said, it is all subjective and a matter of what you like

http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/index.p...scussion-poll/

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post #23492 of 24781 Old 09-22-2014, 07:19 AM
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Having spent a lot on a top of the line (at the time) JVC ... having it calibrated and then replacing it with a mid line Sony that out of the box looked as good if not better to me, I'd recommend the Sony VPL-HW55ES. IMO, It is a good value and based upon guaranteed technological obsolescence, there is no need to spend more.

The Seymour AV powered AT screens are the best regardless of price.



Quote:
Originally Posted by rhed View Post
Had Sunday off from work. Finally! Anyway had some time to position the speakers. The four slanted 8 has been up two weeks ago. But did not have the chance to even play with them. I've been so busy with work. My amps has been in but hadn't have a chance to picked them up. So probably Tuesday. Speaking of amps.. My local Berhinger dealer made a mistake on my order. I pre paid for 2 inukes 6000 dsp. But instead, 1 6000dsp and 1 3000dsp arrived. And since all the 6000 which was a on backed ordered all fulfilled. I would have to wait another 2 weeks. Yea, I was kinda pissed. So he called his Berhinger rep about it. And sent a 12000 dsp instead. And we made a deal. So I just owe 118$ more. So I guess that means I'm getting the 12000 dsp for 518$? Oh, well amp is a amp. Just be happy.
Anyway, today I just plugged in the speakers straight from the Pio sc-09. Turned off the quad S2's. Set the LCR's large. And "wow"! Amazing! I don't know what everyone mean bout laid back? But I guess I would never know. Because for me, from def tech Mythos ST to JTR 215's? That's a big improvement in soundstage and sq. meaning I never had the chance to go through the ladder of JTR lineup like most here. This speaker has lots of great bass. Though I'd still want my quad S2's on for deep diggin movies. But all what I was expectng in a full range speaker for 2 channel exceeded my expectations. Now remember now, these thoughts are just plug and play straight from the avr. Next weekend is when I start hooking up the inukes, run REW, and calibrate.
Btw, I'm in the market for a good PJ right now. Probably towards the end of the year. And a screen to drap over my 70" Elite led when time for movies. I'm gonna use the Elite for games a general viewing. So
my dual DIY FTW 21 build is gonna have to wait.. Lol. I need to upgrade my display. Besides, I think I should have enough bass for now.. Lol. Any thoughts on the jvc dla-x500r ?

Attachment 274498

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post #23493 of 24781 Old 09-22-2014, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhed View Post
So
my dual DIY FTW 21 build is gonna have to wait.. Lol. I need to upgrade my display. Besides, I think I should have enough bass for now.. Lol. Any thoughts on the jvc dla-x500r ?

Attachment 274498
I think youll be just fine without the 21's... I have the 4910 and it is just absolutely gorgeous 138" 16:9 screen and looks fantastic

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post #23494 of 24781 Old 09-22-2014, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
"Nice workout for the LFE channel". Hehe, that's funny!

Subtle JTR 215 humor...nice!
I know the concept of a true full range speaker alludes you and with your little band limited mains coming your head will remain firmly implanted in the sand. Perhaps someday soon you will be enlightened.
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post #23495 of 24781 Old 09-22-2014, 07:30 AM
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I rearranged the speakers and subs last night. Getting better.
The 212s are now in the corners, and the subs are in 1/4 3/4 positions.
This is with no EQ, room correction, or sub gain.

The 10 db XLR inline attenuators on worked nicely for the 212s.
My pre-amp auto-calibration put the center at -11 db after the attenuator.
Fits like a glove inside the -12 db limit.

The 200 hz dip has been really reduced with the new placement, but it's still there.
Previously, it was an 18 db dip, starting at 650 hz.
Now, it's an 8 db dip, starting at 200 hz.

It might be a floor reflection that's no longer getting reinforced by the side walls.

Still a bit odd, since I wasn't getting that with the Triads.
Maybe they have tighter vertical directivity?
Perhaps the difference between a 250hz vs 400hz midrange crossover?

I need to throw a panel underneath one, to see if it makes a difference.
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post #23496 of 24781 Old 09-22-2014, 08:20 AM
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@rhed , I have a JVC RS45 and love it. I've seen the VPL-HW55ES and for me I'd say go with the JVC X500R. IMHO I thought it had a nicer picture over the Sony, but as others have said before if you're big into gaming at all you might want to go with the Sony.
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post #23497 of 24781 Old 09-22-2014, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
I know the concept of a true full range speaker alludes you and with your little band limited mains coming your head will remain firmly implanted in the sand. Perhaps someday soon you will be enlightened.
Hehe! Aren't those coffins you call speakers tuned to 17 Hz? My band limited mains are only rated to 20 Hz, but I prefer to have true full range reproduction for HT down to 5 Hz, so even if I put in several of those walk-in closets you guys call speakers, I'd still need real subs
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post #23498 of 24781 Old 09-22-2014, 08:26 AM
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My Triple8HT's are still rocking the front soundstage. Curious on trying out different surrounds. I have two pairs of JBL 8340A's for the side and rears. I searched through the thread to see if anyone mentioned pairing up the QSC pro line of cinema speakers with the JTR's? I was specifically looking at QSC SR-8101 surrounds or more likely the SR-8200's:


http://qsc.com/products/loudspeakers/sr_series/SR-8101/

http://qsc.com/files/3013/7910/5806/...Spec_Sheet.pdf

Not totally unhappy with the JBL's....just have a little bit of a wandering eye . This is unless someone wants to sell me their gently used Slant 8's ???

Ron

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post #23499 of 24781 Old 09-22-2014, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rboster View Post
My Triple8HT's are still rocking the front soundstage. Curious on trying out different surrounds. I have two pairs of JBL 8340A's for the side and rears. I searched through the thread to see if anyone mentioned pairing up the QSC pro line of cinema speakers with the JTR's? I was specifically looking at QSC SR-8101 surrounds or more likely the SR-8200's:


http://qsc.com/products/loudspeakers/sr_series/SR-8101/

http://qsc.com/files/3013/7910/5806/...Spec_Sheet.pdf

Not totally unhappy with the JBL's....just have a little bit of a wandering eye . This is unless someone wants to sell me their gently used Slant 8's ???

Ron
archaea uses some mackie's he found for a steal that are likely quite similar to what you are looking into with the qsc's. He is quite happy with the mackie's he purchased though

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post #23500 of 24781 Old 09-22-2014, 08:59 AM
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My son and I watched Godzilla a few weeks ago at nebrunner's house. He has a DTS-10 and a JTR Growler. I loved the bass. Incredible dynamics and slam. I'm looking forward to watching this with my IB system. Speaking of data-bass.com, the DTS-10 I heard is the actual one tested at data-bass.com. Nebrunner bought it from Ricci.

Listen to a JTR Growler if you ever get the chance. Both the DTS-10 and Growler fit behind an AT screen and have tremendous headroom in the bass and mid-bass. If you have ever heard Archaea's pair of Captivators, a Growler is like having 3 Caps from 40 Hz and up.

Here is a review from Blu-ray.com:

Quote:
Godzilla roars with a breathtaking, ear-shattering DTS-HD Master Audio 7.1 lossless soundtrack. This is, quite simply, one of the top handful of audio experiences the Blu-ray format has yet enjoyed and certainly a true reference track that will challenge any low end to its maximum capacity. Even better, the track isn't just a jumble of aggressive sound. Like the movie, it's perfectly orchestrated and balanced, hugely aggressive but naturally so, as if commanded by the actions, not over-pumped to create the feel of a large event. The realism is uncanny not only in the low end but in the aggressive spacing and natural envelopment the track offers. Whether up-close or at a distance, the sounds of mayhem enjoy an incredible balance as destruction and ear-shattering creature screeches spill from every speaker. Likewise, gunfire tears through the stage with impressive effortlessness, explosions pack a significant wallop, and jet fighters and helicopters and other speedy military hardware zoom through the stage with potent yet realistic effectiveness. Music shares the same sort of posture, enjoying an effortlessly wide spacing and aggressive yet balanced surround support. Light atmospherics spill into the stage on several occasions, but it's that more powerful second half that will make this a go-to reference presentation for years to come. Natural, clear dialogue rounds out a perfect track.
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post #23501 of 24781 Old 09-22-2014, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
My son and I watched Godzilla a few weeks ago at nebrunner's house. He has a DTS-10 and a JTR Growler. I loved the bass. Incredible dynamics and slam. I'm looking forward to watching this with my IB system. Speaking of data-bass.com, the DTS-10 I heard is the actual one tested at data-bass.com. Nebrunner bought it from Ricci.

Listen to a JTR Growler if you ever get the chance. Both the DTS-10 and Growler fit behind an AT screen and have tremendous headroom in the bass and mid-bass. If you have ever heard Archaea's pair of Captivators, a Growler is like having 3 Caps from 40 Hz and up.

Here is a review from Blu-ray.com:
I agree with review you quoted. When somebody says they heard the bass wasn't good because of a 30hz filter, I can see where they are coming from to a degree but just because it has a filter doesn't mean the bass can't be good or aggressive. Very few movies have much content below 30hz. I have heard a ton on soundtracks on my system and this one was one of the most demanding with a big wow factor. Anyways, I enjoyed it
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post #23502 of 24781 Old 09-22-2014, 09:35 AM
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Looks like I am making a trip to Best Buy then today

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post #23503 of 24781 Old 09-22-2014, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Hehe! Aren't those coffins you call speakers tuned to 17 Hz? My band limited mains are only rated to 20 Hz, but I prefer to have true full range reproduction for HT down to 5 Hz, so even if I put in several of those walk-in closets you guys call speakers, I'd still need real subs
OK, this is getting nasty. That is good as I enjoy s good pi$$ing contest as much as the next guy .

I'm anxious for a direct compare of your tiny "value priced" speakers vs my over sized non-VLF capable mains.
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post #23504 of 24781 Old 09-22-2014, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
My son and I watched Godzilla a few weeks ago at nebrunner's house. He has a DTS-10 and a JTR Growler. I loved the bass. Incredible dynamics and slam. I'm looking forward to watching this with my IB system. Speaking of data-bass.com, the DTS-10 I heard is the actual one tested at data-bass.com. Nebrunner bought it from Ricci.

Listen to a JTR Growler if you ever get the chance. Both the DTS-10 and Growler fit behind an AT screen and have tremendous headroom in the bass and mid-bass. If you have ever heard Archaea's pair of Captivators, a Growler is like having 3 Caps from 40 Hz and up.

Here is a review from Blu-ray.com:
Jeff said he is working on a new "pro audio" version of the Growler. Should be a midbass monster!

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post #23505 of 24781 Old 09-22-2014, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
OK, this is getting nasty. That is good as I enjoy s good pi$$ing contest as much as the next guy .

I'm anxious for a direct compare of your tiny "value priced" speakers vs my over sized non-VLF capable mains.
Yessir! All in good fun!

It will be interesting to get them in the same room. I seriously doubt there's any chance of the M2's hanging with the 215's for ultimate output. But I'm curious to hear how close they are. My cash will be laid down for the 215 there.

Now SQ is another story. My monies on the M2's for that. .

No matter, I love JTR's and respect Jeff very much. Different speakers won't change that.
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post #23506 of 24781 Old 09-22-2014, 10:02 AM
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I hadn't read Ralph Potts' review yet of Godzilla. I just checked it out and he gave the audio track a score of 100.

Quote:
The DTS-HD Master Audio soundtrack is reference quality and among the best home theater experiences I have ever had. I had high expectations for this soundtrack and this lossless audio presentation didn’t disappoint. I was treated to an impeccably detailed, powerfully dynamic, and demonstrative surround sound experience. Multi-layered sound effects are appropriately placed within the soundfield so that their purpose was definable yet never overstated. The mix makes effective and aggressive use of the surround channels to define the soundstage and reproduce the spatial and discrete sounds of this demanding soundtrack. The front and rear sound fields are integrated with precision which enables a seamless blend during panning sequences as the listening position becomes submerged in an engaging variety of effects that place you in the heart of the action. One of the best examples of this occurs in chapter 8 beginning at the 1:16:30 mark on the train trestle. As the soldiers stand out in the open the M.U.T.O. rises out of the dark and rotates around their position. The blend of room traversing effects and supporting low frequency detail create an incredibly effective aural display that left me tipping my cap to the sound mixer.

I love clean powerful bass and this track delivers it in spades. Low frequency effects can be substantial and occasionally reach seismic levels and lower depths that will test the limits of lesser subwoofers. The extended dynamic range of the recording coupled with the film’s bombast results in authoritative low frequency transients that are deep, powerful and perfect for those that revel in noteworthy bass extension. Dialogue is supremely articulated with excellent focus, clarity and descriptive intonation. I found the surround mixes ability to render fine detail, and subtle nuance to be excellent. As viewers I think we sometimes miss some of the intricacies that go into the design of soundtracks such as this. Not so in this case as even seemingly inconspicuous minutia within the recording is detectable. I thoroughly enjoyed every minute with this terrific soundtrack.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Alas I only have a measly four Seaton Submersives but the bass in my room was excellent. I will be using this for demos for sometime to come.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Potts replying to Nube View Post
Greetings,

Unconvincing bass content sound design? Abraham will all due respect I think that you are letting your measurements interfere with your ability to sit back and simply watch a film. You have posted your thoughts/references to Data-Bass as well as presented your findings. I see no reason to continue to reference them in this thread. I am not interested in turning this thread or any other in the review forum into a debate regarding ULF content etc.

My advice to others is to listen to the track and make your own observations.

Regards,
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post #23507 of 24781 Old 09-22-2014, 10:12 AM
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Jeff said he is working on a new "pro audio" version of the Growler. Should be a midbass monster!
2 of those just may work their way into my system somehow......
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post #23508 of 24781 Old 09-22-2014, 10:32 AM
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The JVC X500R is an amazing Projector for the member who asked.
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post #23509 of 24781 Old 09-22-2014, 10:47 AM
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You guys that loved the bass in Godzilla - how does it compare to CA2? I was VERY impressed with CA2.
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post #23510 of 24781 Old 09-22-2014, 10:47 AM
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2 of those just may work their way into my system somehow......

God knows you desperately need it.
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post #23511 of 24781 Old 09-22-2014, 10:50 AM
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You guys that loved the bass in Godzilla - how does it compare to CA2? I was VERY impressed with CA2.
It wasn't just the quality of the Bass...it was the quantity as well. Godzilla had more...which makes it better
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post #23512 of 24781 Old 09-22-2014, 10:55 AM
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2 of those just may work their way into my system somehow......
For smoothing.....right????
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post #23513 of 24781 Old 09-22-2014, 10:59 AM
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...it was the quantity as well. Godzilla had more...
+1

Godzilla had a ton of it. lol
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post #23514 of 24781 Old 09-22-2014, 12:24 PM
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Is there a lot of variety to the bass? That's what I loved about CA2, the sensations were a lot different depending on the scene. I hate it when all bassy noises in movies sound and feel similar.
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post #23515 of 24781 Old 09-22-2014, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
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Is there a lot of variety to the bass? That's what I loved about CA2, the sensations were a lot different depending on the scene. I hate it when all bassy noises in movies sound and feel similar.
The sensations and feelings in Godzilla were like this:

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post #23516 of 24781 Old 09-22-2014, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by rhed View Post
Had Sunday off from work. Finally! Anyway had some time to position the speakers. The four slanted 8 has been up two weeks ago. But did not have the chance to even play with them. I've been so busy with work. My amps has been in but hadn't have a chance to picked them up. So probably Tuesday. Speaking of amps.. My local Berhinger dealer made a mistake on my order. I pre paid for 2 inukes 6000 dsp. But instead, 1 6000dsp and 1 3000dsp arrived. And since all the 6000 which was a on backed ordered all fulfilled. I would have to wait another 2 weeks. Yea, I was kinda pissed. So he called his Berhinger rep about it. And sent a 12000 dsp instead. And we made a deal. So I just owe 118$ more. So I guess that means I'm getting the 12000 dsp for 518$? Oh, well amp is a amp. Just be happy.
Anyway, today I just plugged in the speakers straight from the Pio sc-09. Turned off the quad S2's. Set the LCR's large. And "wow"! Amazing! I don't know what everyone mean bout laid back? But I guess I would never know. Because for me, from def tech Mythos ST to JTR 215's? That's a big improvement in soundstage and sq. meaning I never had the chance to go through the ladder of JTR lineup like most here. This speaker has lots of great bass. Though I'd still want my quad S2's on for deep diggin movies. But all what I was expectng in a full range speaker for 2 channel exceeded my expectations. Now remember now, these thoughts are just plug and play straight from the avr. Next weekend is when I start hooking up the inukes, run REW, and calibrate.
Btw, I'm in the market for a good PJ right now. Probably towards the end of the year. And a screen to drap over my 70" Elite led when time for movies. I'm gonna use the Elite for games a general viewing. So
my dual DIY FTW 21 build is gonna have to wait.. Lol. I need to upgrade my display. Besides, I think I should have enough bass for now.. Lol. Any thoughts on the jvc dla-x500r ?

Attachment 274498


rhed,


I was reading some older posts in this thread and at that time you were sold on the Crown xls 1500 amps to drive your 215's but I see you chose the iNukes. What factor(s) made you change your mind? DSP in the iNukes?


Very nice set-up by the way.

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post #23517 of 24781 Old 09-22-2014, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
Is there a lot of variety to the bass? That's what I loved about CA2, the sensations were a lot different depending on the scene. I hate it when all bassy noises in movies sound and feel similar.
In that aspect id say CA2 was better. Not that Godzilla was a one note wonder, but IMO Captain America had more of a variety.
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post #23518 of 24781 Old 09-22-2014, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by rhed View Post
Had Sunday off from work. Finally! Anyway had some time to position the speakers. The four slanted 8 has been up two weeks ago. But did not have the chance to even play with them. I've been so busy with work. My amps has been in but hadn't have a chance to picked them up. So probably Tuesday. Speaking of amps.. My local Berhinger dealer made a mistake on my order. I pre paid for 2 inukes 6000 dsp. But instead, 1 6000dsp and 1 3000dsp arrived. And since all the 6000 which was a on backed ordered all fulfilled. I would have to wait another 2 weeks. Yea, I was kinda pissed. So he called his Berhinger rep about it. And sent a 12000 dsp instead. And we made a deal. So I just owe 118$ more. So I guess that means I'm getting the 12000 dsp for 518$? Oh, well amp is a amp. Just be happy.
Anyway, today I just plugged in the speakers straight from the Pio sc-09. Turned off the quad S2's. Set the LCR's large. And "wow"! Amazing! I don't know what everyone mean bout laid back? But I guess I would never know. Because for me, from def tech Mythos ST to JTR 215's? That's a big improvement in soundstage and sq. meaning I never had the chance to go through the ladder of JTR lineup like most here. This speaker has lots of great bass. Though I'd still want my quad S2's on for deep diggin movies. But all what I was expectng in a full range speaker for 2 channel exceeded my expectations. Now remember now, these thoughts are just plug and play straight from the avr. Next weekend is when I start hooking up the inukes, run REW, and calibrate.
Btw, I'm in the market for a good PJ right now. Probably towards the end of the year. And a screen to drap over my 70" Elite led when time for movies. I'm gonna use the Elite for games a general viewing. So
my dual DIY FTW 21 build is gonna have to wait.. Lol. I need to upgrade my display. Besides, I think I should have enough bass for now.. Lol. Any thoughts on the jvc dla-x500r ?

Attachment 274498
I can't beleive that is a 70" TV!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
I rearranged the speakers and subs last night. Getting better.
The 212s are now in the corners, and the subs are in 1/4 3/4 positions.
This is with no EQ, room correction, or sub gain.

The 10 db XLR inline attenuators on worked nicely for the 212s.
My pre-amp auto-calibration put the center at -11 db after the attenuator.
Fits like a glove inside the -12 db limit.

The 200 hz dip has been really reduced with the new placement, but it's still there.
Previously, it was an 18 db dip, starting at 650 hz.
Now, it's an 8 db dip, starting at 200 hz.

It might be a floor reflection that's no longer getting reinforced by the side walls.

Still a bit odd, since I wasn't getting that with the Triads.
Maybe they have tighter vertical directivity?
Perhaps the difference between a 250hz vs 400hz midrange crossover?

I need to throw a panel underneath one, to see if it makes a difference.
That is a really good raw response right there! You would make some drool who hang in the REW thread. I have seen some narly looking responses there. Anyway I have done some holding or placing raw insullation in place and seeing the instant improvements on the ETC graph.
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post #23519 of 24781 Old 09-22-2014, 01:23 PM
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I have a confession, I'm in the market for a soundbar...ahhh that felt good
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post #23520 of 24781 Old 09-22-2014, 01:27 PM
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I have a confession, I'm in the market for a soundbar...ahhh that felt good
^^^^Auto ban...turn in your man card...never visit the JTR thread again!!!!!
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