Official JTR speaker thread - Page 790 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!



Forum Jump: 
 6928Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #23671 of 35294 Old 09-28-2014, 04:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jbrown15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 8,556
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2518 Post(s)
Liked: 1980
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nabs17 View Post
Well...I've been playing with Omnimic and I've generated a FR graph for my LCR and here it is:

I'm guessing that you're also running your subs too?
jbrown15 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #23672 of 35294 Old 09-28-2014, 04:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Nabs17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Wesley Chapel, FL
Posts: 1,724
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 889 Post(s)
Liked: 483
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
I'm guessing that you're also running your subs too?
Yes and current x-over is 80.

Nabs17
Nabs17 is offline  
post #23673 of 35294 Old 09-28-2014, 04:16 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jbrown15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 8,556
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2518 Post(s)
Liked: 1980
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nabs17 View Post
Yes and current x-over is 80.
I was wondering because you said "I generated a FR for my LCR's" and I'm looking at it thinking there's no way 212's play down to 20hz like that!....lol
jbrown15 is offline  
post #23674 of 35294 Old 09-28-2014, 04:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Nabs17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Wesley Chapel, FL
Posts: 1,724
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 889 Post(s)
Liked: 483
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
I was wondering because you said "I generated a FR for my LCR's" and I'm looking at it thinking there's no way 212's play down to 20hz like that!....lol

Sorry for the confusion but the graph is with my current speakers which are McIntosh's and my current subs which are SVS PB12/2's. I'm currently awaiting my 215RT's and RM. I just got this Omnimic and am trying to figure it out and am by no means an expert....this is my first attempt at a FR graph....I think I did it right based upon the instructions. I want to figure it out before the 215's come so then I'll know what I'm doing when I want to create a FR graph.

Nabs17
Nabs17 is offline  
post #23675 of 35294 Old 09-28-2014, 05:06 PM
Deep Sea Sound
 
dgage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 3,145
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1447 Post(s)
Liked: 1198
I've been meaning to take measurements with my new equipment for a while and I finally found some time today. The following are measurements of one of my sealed 212HT-LP speaker taken outside.

Gray - Taken a few weeks ago with my MiniDSP UMIK-1 microphone, through my Sherbourn PT-7030 preamp, and Outlaw 755 (300w) amp. Speaker was up about 4' off the ground. Microphone was 3' in front of the horn.

Blue - Taken today using a quick speaker platform I put together a couple days ago using scrap I had available. Platform is 6' off the ground on a slope. The microphone in that location is about 8' high. Microphone is an Earthworks M50 to a RME Fireface UC mic amp/digital interface to a iNuke 6000 amplifier. For this first measurement I had the amp channel gain at half. Microphone was 3' in front of the horn.

Yellow - Same as the blue but the iNuke 6000 amp channel was at 3/4 gain and adjusted down in REW to match previous measurement levels.


Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	212htlp_outside_take2.jpg
Views:	1073
Size:	81.0 KB
ID:	284762   Click image for larger version

Name:	OutsideSpeakerMeasuring.jpg
Views:	778
Size:	93.3 KB
ID:	284770  
Reefdvr27 likes this.
dgage is offline  
post #23676 of 35294 Old 09-28-2014, 05:17 PM
AVS Special Member
 
asoofi1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: NoVA
Posts: 1,685
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 896 Post(s)
Liked: 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Depends on what frequency range you're asking about, the Triax can go head to head with a Cap S2 so I would think it would be the same as comparing an S2 to a OS.
I must disagree. I have heard eight sealed eighteens at several houses now. Gorilla83, carp, mine. In my real world experience in three different rooms, Eight 18"s can't hit the volume level of two orbit shifters, nor could eight 15"s at desertdomes, nor could 16 18"s at popalocks. Two Orbit Shifters at max output are savage! Triaxes are only going to be comparable or better the Orbit Shifters below the Orbit Shifter horn's tune.

This isn't a knock on the Triax, its a reality of a horn design with a high excursion 18" in a quality horn design.

Sound quality and flat frequency response plot may be a different story at max outputs, but the orbit Shifter is a SPL output monster.
I'm Asim, and I approve this message
jlpowell84 likes this.

Last edited by asoofi1; 09-28-2014 at 06:43 PM.
asoofi1 is offline  
post #23677 of 35294 Old 09-28-2014, 06:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
asoofi1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: NoVA
Posts: 1,685
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 896 Post(s)
Liked: 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
That night at your place with the dual OS's - if I remember right Jeff went to 10 over reference on the master volume with the subs crazy hot above that.

You guys that have Orbit Shifters - you have not pushed them to their limits if you have never tripped dedicated 20 amp lines. We did that a few times that night. You may not want to try that out however because as Archaea has said the bass broke all kinds of components and the cracked the grout in his kitchen.
I agree...I have never pushed mine to their limits...yet. I'm honestly scared for my hearing and really don't need to with normal use. Plus, I'm running both on 15 amp outlets still and they still bring ferocious amounts of fury at a +10 master volume. One day though...nervously...one day.
jlpowell84 likes this.
asoofi1 is offline  
post #23678 of 35294 Old 09-28-2014, 06:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
edoggrc51's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Fontana, CA
Posts: 1,453
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked: 63
Curios. What do you guys play when cranking it to those insane levels??
edoggrc51 is offline  
post #23679 of 35294 Old 09-28-2014, 06:51 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Frohlich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 3,278
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1045 Post(s)
Liked: 933
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post


Your Home Theater room isn't what I had imagined...not that I am judging
COACH2369 and jlpowell84 like this.
Frohlich is online now  
post #23680 of 35294 Old 09-28-2014, 06:56 PM
Deep Sea Sound
 
dgage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 3,145
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1447 Post(s)
Liked: 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
Your Home Theater room isn't what I had imagined...not that I am judging
Someone mentioned I might have had room modes but I called pest control and they couldn't help me. So I figured I'd just get rid of the room completely, which should take care of modes...whatever they are.

But looking at the graph, for a speaker that is supposed to be -3db down at 70Hz, I'm not seeing it. I only want them to play down to 80 Hz so I'll see if I can boost the bottom end with a linkwitz transform or similar and throw a lot more power at them.

Oh and looking at the dip from 100-300, I guess I know why I've been unhappy with the midbass...even though I've been boosting it. Looks like power and lots of DSP should address...I hope.
dgage is offline  
post #23681 of 35294 Old 09-28-2014, 10:01 PM
AVS Special Member
 
audiovideoholic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Murray KY
Posts: 2,799
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 260 Post(s)
Liked: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Someone mentioned I might have had room modes but I called pest control and they couldn't help me. So I figured I'd just get rid of the room completely, which should take care of modes...whatever they are.

But looking at the graph, for a speaker that is supposed to be -3db down at 70Hz, I'm not seeing it. I only want them to play down to 80 Hz so I'll see if I can boost the bottom end with a linkwitz transform or similar and throw a lot more power at them.

Oh and looking at the dip from 100-300, I guess I know why I've been unhappy with the midbass...even though I've been boosting it. Looks like power and lots of DSP should address...I hope.

This most def proves the dip is not mode related all on its own for sure! I couldn't handle that dip at all. Seems like it's rather large and deep for these speakers, no?
audiovideoholic is offline  
post #23682 of 35294 Old 09-29-2014, 12:39 AM
AVS Special Member
 
rhed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,980
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 574 Post(s)
Liked: 402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nabs17 View Post
Please let me know what you think of the bass in Godzilla when you watch it. I watched it the other day and I have 2 SVS pb12/2's and it was the most intense experience I can remember. I can only imagine with 4 S2's and 215's what that will sound/feel like...so please let me know. Earlier there was talk about the bass in this movie and the 30hz cutoff but...it didn't matter...the bass in this movie is insane and intense...especially when the MUTO's are involved.


I can't wait for my 215's because this will be one of the movies I'll use to test with.

My boy and I just finish watching Godzilla in 3D .. Before I state this impression. Just wanna put up where my current settings at now. On the AVR.. FL @ -4.5 74-76db on the rat meter. set to large.
FR @ -4.0 " "db inuke 12 and 6 is about 3/8's on the knob
CC @ -4.0 ". "db Set to small Xover 80hz
Surrounds set to small " " "
Sub @ -3.5.. Speaker power amps gains on all 4 S2's are @-16
My last graph posted a few pages back (flat) now has a 6db HC through the antimode 2.0 from 6hz to 60hz.
L/R has butterwworth 18 db slope HPF. DEQ @ 170hz, 5db gain, Bp type.

Watched Godzilla at -2. CRAZY friggn clean, accurate bass. With the sealed S2's off to the sides and rear. And the ported 215's up front. IMO, is a perfect combo. I got a little nauseated again. Then I knocked down my canvas panoramic photo at the room over for the second time. And for some odd reason, one of the S2's tripped its 20 amp breaker. But I don't know when that happened and what scene. I only found out when the movie was done. And when I shut down I manually turn off all the amps on the S2's. I don't leave them on. I don't understand. Will give my electrician a call tomorrow. As all the breakers are brand new.
Anyway the 215's running the LR full range adds more punch and depth to the front stage. I compared from switching small to large. And I really like them set at large. Played some 2 channel today to. Popped in a xrcd Eagles. And I was taken for half hour +3 on the MV.
As it stands, I very happy with this full JTR combo. I don't know if I need anymore bass after tonight's Godzilla flick. The thought of adding more subs is deminishing. Especially since I don't have anymore dedicated 20 a circuit left. I already took the two in next room over for the Inukes. Which was supposed to be for my salt water tank. That I didn't finish. But, I found out the pumps that I'll run only needs 2 15a circuits. Which is good news for me. Lol..
Next up.. Projector and screen shopping..

Full JTR system
2 215RT
1 215RM
4 S8 (slanted)
4 S2
RMK!, asoofi1, countryWV and 2 others like this.

Last edited by rhed; 09-29-2014 at 12:59 AM.
rhed is online now  
post #23683 of 35294 Old 09-29-2014, 01:02 AM
AVS Special Member
 
rhed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,980
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 574 Post(s)
Liked: 402
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhed View Post
My boy and I just finish watching Godzilla in 3D .. Before I state this impression. Just wanna put up where my current settings at now. On the AVR.. FL @ -4.5 74-76db on the rat meter. set to large.
FR @ -4.0 " "db inuke 12 and 6 is about 3/8's on the knob
CC @ -4.0 ". "db Set to small Xover 80hz
Surrounds set to small " " "
Sub @ -3.5.. Speaker power amps gains on all 4 S2's are @-16
My last graph posted a few pages back (flat) now has a 6db HC through the antimode 2.0 from 6hz to 60hz.
L/R has butterwworth 18 db slope HPF. DEQ @ 170hz, 5db gain, Bp type.

Watched Godzilla at -2. CRAZY friggn clean, accurate bass. With the sealed S2's off to the sides and rear. And the ported 215's up front. IMO, is a perfect combo. I got a little nauseated again. Then I knocked down my canvas panoramic photo at the room over for the second time. And for some odd reason, one of the S2's tripped its 20 amp breaker. But I don't know when that happened and what scene. I only found out when the movie was done. And when I shut down I manually turn off all the amps on the S2's. I don't leave them on. I don't understand. Will give my electrician a call tomorrow. As all the breakers are brand new.
Anyway the 215's running the LR full range adds more punch and depth to the front stage. I compared from switching small to large. And I really like them set at large. Played some 2 channel today to. Popped in a xrcd Eagles. And I was taken for half hour +3 on the MV.
As it stands, I very happy with this full JTR combo. I don't know if I need anymore bass after tonight's Godzilla flick. The thought of adding more subs is deminishing. Especially since I don't have anymore dedicated 20 a circuit left. I already took the two in next room over for the Inukes. Which was supposed to be for my salt water tank. That I didn't finish. But, I found out the pumps that I'll run only needs 2 15a circuits. Which is good news for me. Lol..
Next up.. Projector and screen shopping..

Full JTR system
2 215RT
1 215RM
4 S8 (slanted)
4 S2

Ok.. I think I found out why one of the S2's tripped. Amp gain on the sub was almost 5 clicks higher then what's the rest is set... Lol.. I must have move the knob when I was moving the sub around..lol
rhed is online now  
post #23684 of 35294 Old 09-29-2014, 01:25 AM
AVS Special Member
 
coolgeek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,194
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 497 Post(s)
Liked: 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
I've been meaning to take measurements with my new equipment for a while and I finally found some time today. The following are measurements of one of my sealed 212HT-LP speaker taken outside.

Gray - Taken a few weeks ago with my MiniDSP UMIK-1 microphone, through my Sherbourn PT-7030 preamp, and Outlaw 755 (300w) amp. Speaker was up about 4' off the ground. Microphone was 3' in front of the horn.

Blue - Taken today using a quick speaker platform I put together a couple days ago using scrap I had available. Platform is 6' off the ground on a slope. The microphone in that location is about 8' high. Microphone is an Earthworks M50 to a RME Fireface UC mic amp/digital interface to a iNuke 6000 amplifier. For this first measurement I had the amp channel gain at half. Microphone was 3' in front of the horn.

Yellow - Same as the blue but the iNuke 6000 amp channel was at 3/4 gain and adjusted down in REW to match previous measurement levels.


I always thought the 212s don't have enough midbass.. and everyone keeps telling me that it's supposed to be flat and that if i wanted 'more' i should use an equalizer... now i know why... I guess the 212s ported version won't have this problem...
coolgeek is offline  
post #23685 of 35294 Old 09-29-2014, 05:24 AM
AVS Special Member
 
rcohen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,532
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1007 Post(s)
Liked: 395
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
I've been meaning to take measurements with my new equipment for a while and I finally found some time today. The following are measurements of one of my sealed 212HT-LP speaker taken outside.

Gray - Taken a few weeks ago with my MiniDSP UMIK-1 microphone, through my Sherbourn PT-7030 preamp, and Outlaw 755 (300w) amp. Speaker was up about 4' off the ground. Microphone was 3' in front of the horn.

Blue - Taken today using a quick speaker platform I put together a couple days ago using scrap I had available. Platform is 6' off the ground on a slope. The microphone in that location is about 8' high. Microphone is an Earthworks M50 to a RME Fireface UC mic amp/digital interface to a iNuke 6000 amplifier. For this first measurement I had the amp channel gain at half. Microphone was 3' in front of the horn.

Yellow - Same as the blue but the iNuke 6000 amp channel was at 3/4 gain and adjusted down in REW to match previous measurement levels.
The mic should be straight out from the tweeter for a MTM/D'Appolito speaker. Otherwise, the woofers could be canceling out when where the difference in distance between the mic and each woofer is between 1/4 and 3/4 wavelengths.

It's hard to make out from the picture, but it looks like the speaker is angled up and the mic is below the tweeter. I'm not sure if this is the issue, but the combination of those two might create a dip.

I'm actually trying to solve a similar dip on the 212HTs, so I'd be curious to see what others are getting for un-EQ'ed response.

This one in this ad listing looks great. I wonder if he's using EQ? A different room? Different versions of the crossover?
Three JTR Noesis 212 HT for sale

This link has some nice animated graphs illustrating the issue, although I'm not sure what the cancellation angle would be for the 212's woofer spacing:
http://www.beatstamm.com/OffAxisResponse.htm

Squinting at the picture, it seems unlikely that angle is responsible for such a dip...

Last edited by rcohen; 09-29-2014 at 07:12 AM.
rcohen is offline  
post #23686 of 35294 Old 09-29-2014, 09:48 AM
AVS Special Member
 
desertdome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Elkhorn, NE
Posts: 2,991
Mentioned: 131 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 895 Post(s)
Liked: 955
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
I've been meaning to take measurements with my new equipment for a while and I finally found some time today. The following are measurements of one of my sealed 212HT-LP speaker taken outside.
For reference, here are dlbeck's close mic measurements of his 212HT-LP:

Frohlich and dgage like this.
desertdome is offline  
post #23687 of 35294 Old 09-29-2014, 09:55 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Frohlich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 3,278
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1045 Post(s)
Liked: 933
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
For reference, here are dlbeck's close mic measurements of his 212HT-LP:

Thanks for the graph. Seems to be a small dip above 100HZ..but certainly within the +/- 3 db range advertised. Do you have any for the 212ht (non-lp)?
Frohlich is online now  
post #23688 of 35294 Old 09-29-2014, 09:59 AM
AVS Special Member
 
desertdome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Elkhorn, NE
Posts: 2,991
Mentioned: 131 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 895 Post(s)
Liked: 955
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
I always thought the 212s don't have enough midbass.. and everyone keeps telling me that it's supposed to be flat and that if i wanted 'more' i should use an equalizer... now i know why... I guess the 212s ported version won't have this problem...
The window is more zoomed in than normal. The frequency response fits within a +/- 3 dB window. That is considered flat. The graph is also of the direct sound. Most people don't toe in their speakers to point directly at them. At 22.5 degrees of axis, the variation from 100-1000 Hz is even less (about +/- 1.5 dB). This is a world class frequency response.

Also, a frequency response chart in no way indicates how much midbass a speaker has. My computer speakers with 5 1/4" drivers measure just as flat. Think they have any midbass? Midbass capability is determined by displacement, sensitivity, and power. The first two the 212HT-LP has in spades. The third is up to the user.
desertdome is offline  
post #23689 of 35294 Old 09-29-2014, 10:07 AM
AVS Special Member
 
desertdome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Elkhorn, NE
Posts: 2,991
Mentioned: 131 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 895 Post(s)
Liked: 955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
Thanks for the graph. Seems to be a small dip above 100HZ..but certainly within the +/- 3 db range advertised. Do you have any for the 212ht (non-lp)?
I don't have any for the 212HT.

When one uses a 70-80 Hz crossover, what looks like a peak at around 120 Hz is brought down. This allows the subwoofer to seamlessly integrate with the 212HT-LP's while still providing the necessary midbass. The high end has a little more direct energy, but off axis becomes almost completely flat. In a well treated room, the extra high end energy produces a flat frequency response due to absorption.
Frohlich and lbrown105 like this.
desertdome is offline  
post #23690 of 35294 Old 09-29-2014, 10:23 AM
Deep Sea Sound
 
dgage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 3,145
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1447 Post(s)
Liked: 1198
OK. I've taken a lot of heat for having room problems because it can't ever be a JTR speaker issue as they are world-class.

It looks like dlbeck's measurements and mine are pretty much mirrors of one another.

So let's take the subjective "midbass" piece out of the equation. The 212HT-LP is listed on the JTR website as covering from 70-24000Hz, I'm assuming with the industry standard + or -3 db. I don't see the 212HT-LP meeting that spec, not even close...and I think this is what I've felt for the last 6 months but didn't have enough confidence in my measurements or knowledge to make that assumption, especially when every measurement I've posted has been seen as a system issue.

Listen, I don't know what I'm going to do yet...I may see if Jeff will send me ported cabinets instead. I've gone from not having very much knowledge or experience to having a lot more now but still have tons to learn. I now have pro level measuring equipment that I have confidence in as I wasn't as confident in my measurements before. Now that I know more, I can try more options. However, I don't feel I should have to throw a ton of power at a speaker that is advertised and discussed as being able to be powered by a AVR. As it is I'm giving 2-300w to my front 3 speakers.

Sorry but I've been unhappy with my (expensive to me) speakers for the last 6 months and I feel I'm finally close to figuring out why...now I just need to figure out how to address in an acceptable manner. I really like the midrange and upper end of my 212HT-LPs, it is just the range between the midrange and subs that have been the problem.
dgage is offline  
post #23691 of 35294 Old 09-29-2014, 10:28 AM
Deep Sea Sound
 
dgage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 3,145
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1447 Post(s)
Liked: 1198
Rcohen - you make a good point, I'll go get a laser pointer today to make sure the measurements are as accurate as can be.

One other point I want to make is that the measurements are made with a calibrated Earthworks M50 microphone, which is a $1300, well regarded measurement microphone capable of measuring 3-50000Hz +-1 db.
dgage is offline  
post #23692 of 35294 Old 09-29-2014, 10:30 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Frohlich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 3,278
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1045 Post(s)
Liked: 933
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
OK. I've taken a lot of heat for having room problems because it can't ever be a JTR speaker issue as they are world-class.

It looks like dlbeck's measurements and mine are pretty much mirrors of one another.

So let's take the subjective "midbass" piece out of the equation. The 212HT-LP is listed on the JTR website as covering from 70-24000Hz, I'm assuming with the industry standard + or -3 db. I don't see the 212HT-LP meeting that spec, not even close...and I think this is what I've felt for the last 6 months but didn't have enough confidence in my measurements or knowledge to make that assumption, especially when every measurement I've posted has been seen as a system issue.

Listen, I don't know what I'm going to do yet...I may see if Jeff will send me ported cabinets instead. I've gone from not having very much knowledge or experience to having a lot more now but still have tons to learn. I now have pro level measuring equipment that I have confidence in as I wasn't as confident in my measurements before. Now that I know more, I can try more options. However, I don't feel I should have to throw a ton of power at a speaker that is advertised and discussed as being able to be powered by a AVR. As it is I'm giving 2-300w to my front 3 speakers.

Sorry but I've been unhappy with my (expensive to me) speakers for the last 6 months and I feel I'm finally close to figuring out why...now I just need to figure out how to address in an acceptable manner. I really like the midrange and upper end of my 212HT-LPs, it is just the range between the midrange and subs that have been the problem.
When you say it's not even close to spec, I guess I am not following (and I am honestly not trying to be difficult at all). If I look at your graph and use around 77db or 78db as a baseline, it looks like 98% of the frequency range from 100Hz on up is within +/- 3 db....the small exception maybe around 200hz where it might dip 4 or 5 db (instead of 3 db) and another smaller one around 350HZ. Am I reading the graph wrong?

Last edited by Frohlich; 09-29-2014 at 10:35 AM.
Frohlich is online now  
post #23693 of 35294 Old 09-29-2014, 10:47 AM
Deep Sea Sound
 
dgage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 3,145
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1447 Post(s)
Liked: 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
When you say it's not even close to spec, I guess I am not following (and I am honestly not trying to be difficult at all). If I look at your graph and use around 77db or 78db as a baseline, it looks like 98% of the frequency range from 100Hz on up is within +/- 3 db....the small exception maybe around 200hz where it might dip 4 or 5 db (instead of 3 db) and another smaller one around 350HZ. Am I reading the graph wrong?
I'm referring to the 70Hz low end figure not fitting in the + or -3 db.
dgage is offline  
post #23694 of 35294 Old 09-29-2014, 10:52 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jbrown15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 8,556
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2518 Post(s)
Liked: 1980
@dgage , are you really taking a lot of heat over this? I don't think I've really seen any posts where guys have given you a hard time about anything.
jbrown15 is offline  
post #23695 of 35294 Old 09-29-2014, 11:11 AM
Deep Sea Sound
 
dgage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 3,145
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1447 Post(s)
Liked: 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
@dgage , are you really taking a lot of heat over this? I don't think I've really seen any posts where guys have given you a hard time about anything.
Are you saying I'm being a sensitive little .....? Well, maybe I have. Heat is the wrong word but I've been really frustrated with my SEALED 212s and a lot of that is with my own knowledge and experience level. And when I've posted my measurements or mentioned a lack of midbass, I FELT I was dismissed but again, that might be my issue. But I have been frustrated and now that I have better measuring equipment, and especially seeing dlbeck's measurements, which are almost a carbon copy, I now feel I have more knowledge of the situation and more knowledge is always better. At least I feel confident in saying what I've been seeing in my room is not specifically my room, which is a good first step. Now I have like 8 more steps right?

Last edited by dgage; 09-29-2014 at 11:22 AM.
dgage is offline  
post #23696 of 35294 Old 09-29-2014, 11:37 AM
Senior Member
 
mjbuoni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 434
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
The mic should be straight out from the tweeter for a MTM/D'Appolito speaker. Otherwise, the woofers could be canceling out when where the difference in distance between the mic and each woofer is between 1/4 and 3/4 wavelengths.

It's hard to make out from the picture, but it looks like the speaker is angled up and the mic is below the tweeter. I'm not sure if this is the issue, but the combination of those two might create a dip.

I'm actually trying to solve a similar dip on the 212HTs, so I'd be curious to see what others are getting for un-EQ'ed response.

This one in this ad listing looks great. I wonder if he's using EQ? A different room? Different versions of the crossover?
Three JTR Noesis 212 HT for sale

This link has some nice animated graphs illustrating the issue, although I'm not sure what the cancellation angle would be for the 212's woofer spacing:
http://www.beatstamm.com/OffAxisResponse.htm

Squinting at the picture, it seems unlikely that angle is responsible for such a dip...
My response for the 212HT is close mic (~1 m from center of horn), on axis, and with +3 dB bass boost on the tone control. I definitely think the woofers in the 212 benefit from porting for better sensitivity match to the horn driver, but 2-3 dB bass boost sounds (and measures) smoothest and most natural for me.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	rew.PNG
Views:	88
Size:	384.6 KB
ID:	285730  
rcohen likes this.

Last edited by mjbuoni; 09-29-2014 at 12:02 PM.
mjbuoni is offline  
post #23697 of 35294 Old 09-29-2014, 11:51 AM
AVS Special Member
 
tuxedocivic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ladysmith, BC
Posts: 7,160
Mentioned: 128 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1756 Post(s)
Liked: 1609
dgage, coolgeek posted your post in the 1099 thread and I figured I'd just make a comment here. I don't follow this thread. At first I didn't look at the pic closely, but rcohen is on the money that the woofers could be throwing a slight cancellation at the mic around 300hz I'm guessing. On top of that, I mentioned in the 1099 thread you still have a floor reflection to deal with. I'm only saying this to help you out, if you're interested in the low corner bass response of your speaker, you shouldn't use this measurement method. A $500 mic can't save you if the technique is wrong. You should use an outdoor GP to get that info.

You've shown an interest in measurements lately. I'd suggest Joe D'Appolito's book called Testing Loudspeakers. It's a boring read, but a must read if you want to do this kind of thing. It's also a little dated, so bear that in mind.

When you've mastered these things, you'll find you can really throw the hammer down when you know you have the facts right. You'll make objective claims, which are much less refutable. And I think that's what you want to be able to do.

Your setup is much more sturdy than mine though

tuxedocivic is offline  
post #23698 of 35294 Old 09-29-2014, 11:53 AM
Deep Sea Sound
 
dgage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 3,145
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1447 Post(s)
Liked: 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjbuoni View Post
My response is close mic (~1 m from center of horn), on axis, and with +3 dB bass boost on the tone control. I definitely think the woofers in the 212 benefit from porting for better sensitivity match to the horn driver, but 2-3 dB bass boost sounds (and measures) smoothest and most natural for me.
That looks like a nice response to me...but you didn't specify which 212s you have and that is very pertinent to this discussion.
dgage is offline  
post #23699 of 35294 Old 09-29-2014, 11:58 AM
Senior Member
 
mjbuoni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 434
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
That looks like a nice response to me...but you didn't specify which 212s you have and that is very pertinent to this discussion.
Ported
mjbuoni is offline  
post #23700 of 35294 Old 09-29-2014, 12:03 PM
Deep Sea Sound
 
dgage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 3,145
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1447 Post(s)
Liked: 1198
TuxedoCivic - Thanks for the feedback as what I really want is to be happy with what I thought would be my last speaker for the next 20 years. I have an engineering background and so I do indeed want to take great measurements and appreciate the feedback.

So let me get this straight, you want me to lift up a heavy #*#$& speaker up on two tables and up a tall ladder that could fall over and make my $2000+ speaker tumble to the ground. Are you nuts? I know the best measurement would be about 20 feet up in the air but life is about compromises. I've shown that the response in my room on a built-in 2' up from the floor is similar to the response over 6' off the ground. It looks like dlbeck had similar measurements so while my measurements aren't perfect, they appear to be good enough. Not that I'm dismissing your feedback as I know it to be right on and I will consider in the future. But for now, I am pleased with the measurements and feel they are accurate as ultimately, they will be played in room and not up in the air. I did at least prove I am not dealing with an incurable 100Hz in-room dip. Next I'll have to figure out how to address without sinking a ton of money into amps (I don't plan to run loud pro amps in my living room).

David
dgage is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Speakers

Tags
215RT , 228ht , captivator , Jtr , Jtr Noesis 212ht 212ht Lp , noesis

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off