Official JTR speaker thread - Page 793 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 09-30-2014, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
In the DDRC-22DA version we are using, the unit take in a digital signal, and performs room correction before the signal ever gets converted to analog. Dirac can also be run in a PC, but this frees from limiting the source to the PC or requiring the PC to behave as expected. It also serves as a nice DAC and allows me to use an Oppo '105 as an alternate source. If there's one thing I've learned from temporary setups, it is to have backup plans.

While not cheap nor free, Dirac does offer some very nice intelligence in how it corrects and average of multiple measurements and a very flexible response curve editor. Even if someone was to use the DDRC-22A which has Analog I/O, this is still higher resolution of than your Rane RPM88, which I didn't see any sound quality complaints about. With the digital input version, this setup is more akin to using Audyssey in a pre-pro, but Audyssey actually downconverts to 48kHz where this unit operates at 96kHz. The much lower cost per channel NanoAVR-DL operates at 48kHz. Personally I still find the correction performed more beneficial than any differences between sample rates, but 96k does push things well out of the audible range.

As others mentioned, the DSP inside a Catalyst is strictly for speaker only optimization and crossover execution. It does allow more precise control of the starting response curve I am after and other behavior, but does nothing to address the speaker-room interface which varies in every room. I'm very hopeful that we might eventually see versions of these DDRC models with 4 or more channels and/or capabilities of linking units for software calibration, as the DataSat RS20i & Theta Casablanca are the only units currently implementing it at this level. Hopefully the Emotiva pre will eventually include what is effectively in the NanoAVR-DL.
If the goal is to do everything (crossovers, room correction) in one convolution pass (not sure how important that is), it seems like that has to happen in a receiver or PC, in order to properly include surrounds and multiple subs.

Incidentally, on my PC, I can't hear any difference between running Dirac at higher sample rates. (I don't have any 96+khz content.)
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Old 09-30-2014, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Actually the FR is about right.. if the 212 ported version is flat, then the 212lp would be a few dB less in the Mid Bass department.. Jeff told me this himself when i was making the decision between buying hte 212 or the LP version.. i ultimately went with the LP because i always seems to prefer Sealed...

Anyways, for me, i doubt an extra 3dB would make up the mid bass i want... i don't blame the 212 at all... i think for the amount of mid bass i want, i can only achieve it through a dedicated mid bass module...
Let me start by saying that I wouldn't be unhappy if I had listened to the speaker before purchasing...but then I likely wouldn't own the 212s, at least not the sealed. So if someone is looking at speakers now I say it is so incredibly important to hear for yourselves, don't you dare rely on other peoples recommendations or what they like. The JTR 212 has an incredible following and for music, I can absolutely see it and agree. For home theater, MY OPINION is the 212 doesn't quite have the midbass that SOME PEOPLE are looking for. And when I chose the sealed, since my speakers would be in the front two corners of my room, I didn't realize that decision would have such a huge impact. I saw a speaker that was specified to go down to 70 Hz and thought I have super clean subs in the LMS-5400s and those can easily play up to 80 or 90 to allow the 212HT-LPs to handle their core frequency. And I saw a speaker with a pair of 12" speakers that I figured could put out tremendous amounts of midbass. And maybe they can, but apparently I need to give them a few thousand watts and DSP, even though so many people were saying these things are so sensitive, they can be driven with an AVR. I figured I was even better by having a 300w outboard amp.

So is what I just wrote correct...it is from my viewpoint and my knowledge level at the time. Does it apply for someone else...probably not.

I'll finish with where I started...if you are thinking of buying speakers...find a way to listen to them for yourself. I thought I was safe relying on the viewpoint of so many knowledgeable people and it didn't turn out the way I expected. That is the only right answer, listen and make the decision for yourself.
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Old 09-30-2014, 02:49 PM
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I'll add that I think Rhed had the right idea this year when he traveled from Hawaii to Chicago for the Apoxno show and was able to hear many different speakers so he could be sure in his speaker purchasing decision. There are several shows a year, including the upcoming Rocky Mountain Audio Festival (Oct 10-12). JTR Speakers will be there as well as Seaton and likely many others. I can't think of a better event to attend to really understand what is out there and what appeals to each individual.
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Old 09-30-2014, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
If the goal is to do everything (crossovers, room correction) in one convolution pass (not sure how important that is), it seems like that has to happen in a receiver or PC, in order to properly include surrounds and multiple subs.

Incidentally, on my PC, I can't hear any difference between running Dirac at higher sample rates. (I don't have any 96+khz content.)
I'm still not sold on letting a room correction algorithm handle crossovers unless the speakers and software are intended as a system with pre-programmed limits and ranges of flexibility. It's rare you will ever get a large enough sampling of the room to get a good handle on off axis power response from a speaker, and it still requires knowledge of driver limits. Trinnov and Dirac are both getting very good with such capabilities and are almost there, but neither have their latest work available as a complete solution yet. At this point in time implementation would be very hands-on requiring a good bit of background knowledge. Separating out the optimization of getting the sound from a well behaved speaker to the listening area is a task that is much easier to define and execute.
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Old 09-30-2014, 03:51 PM
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On Facebook, JTR just announced this: "Coming soon Noesis 212TT."

Unfortunately, no details were given. We're pressuring them in hopes of details. Anyone hear about this potential "212 Tower" (my presumption)?

I'm guessing he's doing this for the guys wanting more midbass in a smaller cabinet than the 215RT.

David Budo
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Old 09-30-2014, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post
On Facebook, JTR just announced this: "Coming soon Noesis 212TT."

Unfortunately, no details were given. We're pressuring them in hopes of details. Anyone hear about this potential "212 Tower" (my presumption)?

I'm guessing he's doing this for the guys wanting more midbass in a smaller cabinet than the 215RT.
It's the lower costing 212 with the 228 CD (two way). Bringing a lower costing entry point.
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Old 09-30-2014, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
When I was installing my system and the 215's in the new room I had WOTW in the player for like 3 days. I never noticed anything. I also threw in one of the bass demo discs I have and ran that for a day and no problems with anything. The thing I noticed was that on the bass demo disc there is a cut of the pod emerging scene and it sounded funny on the 215's, so that is when I went and got my copy and it was the same thing. It just sounded flat in the center and overpowering bass. I have played a handful of other movies and they all sound great, but WOTW just sounds horrible for some reason. Now that I am tuned a little better I will give it another go. I have had my projector disconnected for a week so hopefully I will get it back up today and rerun WOTW again and see if anything has changed.

Anybody running the 215's with movies and no subs, what are you setting your LFE crossover at? I set the AVR at 120hz. I also went into my oppo player and there is crossover in there that I forgot about and I set that at120hz also. It was set at 80hz and it sounded like it made a difference boosting it. I am not sure if that crossover is bypassed or not?
I did both setting all small, XO 80 with subs. And L/R set large the rest small with subs. I really like the L/R set at large with subs for movies. Brings a huge soundstage. And more impact to the bass this way. When I do set all to small, I difference is slightly noticeable. But not much. Nor not any better. Besides when I do it this way, I think I have a phase issue since my graph is showing a 3 db dip in the 65- 75 region. I didn't have chance to play with the distance settings on the subs yet to see if this will try to correct it. I'm getting kind of anal now. So I'm gonna try tweak things more this this weekend. Any simple way to work with phase?

Last edited by rhed; 09-30-2014 at 04:12 PM.
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Old 09-30-2014, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Actually the FR is about right.. if the 212 ported version is flat, then the 212lp would be a few dB less in the Mid Bass department.. Jeff told me this himself when i was making the decision between buying hte 212 or the LP version.. i ultimately went with the LP because i always seems to prefer Sealed...

Anyways, for me, i doubt an extra 3dB would make up the mid bass i want... i don't blame the 212 at all... i think for the amount of mid bass i want, i can only achieve it through a dedicated mid bass module...
maybe I read the graph wrong, but when I look at the 70hz response it looks like a lot more than 3dB down from the avg SPL across the rest of the range above 100hz.
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Old 09-30-2014, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by 7channelfreak View Post
It's the lower costing 212 with the 228 CD (two way). Bringing a lower costing entry point.
Really? Okay... Anyone have a price or idea of what it might be?

David Budo
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Old 09-30-2014, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by 7channelfreak View Post
It's the lower costing 212 with the 228 CD (two way). Bringing a lower costing entry point.

Really? So it uses the 12" drivers from the 212's but the compression driver from the 228's? Seems strange considering the 228HT's are already $1299ea.


I can see all of the posts now, "should I buy 228HT's or 212TT's for $_____ more".......lol
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Old 09-30-2014, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by 7channelfreak View Post
It's the lower costing 212 with the 228 CD (two way). Bringing a lower costing entry point.
What the heck is Jeff thinking??? We want MOAR!!! Give us a 218RT or 221RT
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Old 09-30-2014, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
DSP on top of DSP ...
Almost all commercial subs have DSP. People still correct them for the room response. Many with active crossovers will correct first for an even sound power response close mic and then a smooth frequency response at the listening position.

I read that Mark disabled the DSP on his subs for integration in TheBland's room and only used Dirac Live.

Changing the volume is DSP. People change the trim levels and then change the volume. That is DSP on top of DSP.

Last edited by desertdome; 09-30-2014 at 04:32 PM. Reason: I was reading from my last read post and missed all the other comments. Sorry for the redundancy. :)
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Old 09-30-2014, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7channelfreak View Post
It's the lower costing 212 with the 228 CD (two way). Bringing a lower costing entry point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Really? So it uses the 12" drivers from the 212's but the compression driver from the 228's? Seems strange considering the 228HT's are already $1299ea.


I can see all of the posts now, "should I buy 228HT's or 212TT's for $_____ more".......lol
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
What the heck is Jeff thinking??? We want MOAR!!! Give us a 218RT or 221RT
From Jeff on Facebook: "Close but no it doesn't use the same cd as the 228. TT= two-way, theater."

I guess that means it's not a tower, but a monitor with a lower f3. Maybe down to the 30hz-40hz range.

David Budo

Last edited by Dbuudo07; 09-30-2014 at 04:56 PM.
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Old 09-30-2014, 04:56 PM
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Should I buy the 228HT or the 212TT for X more?


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Old 09-30-2014, 05:02 PM
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@jparker36
movies primarily = 228HT - - because with DD or DTS movie tracks, or quality digital tracks you'll be hard pressed (if not impossible) to tell the difference (in my experience)
music primarily = 212HT - - because it has a larger, more enjoyable soundstage for 2 channel use.


EDIT!!!
212TT -- what the? got me all confused - ignore my previous response. I hadn't caught yet it wasn't a typo or read the last page or so to see Jeff has a new speaker.

THOUGH??? maybe the same would apply - so I won't delete it.

The compression driver is better on the 212HT than the 228HT - but I found with more modern music recorded at high bit rates, or loseless tracks I didn't notice much - and the key difference was in the soundstage. With older music, or music not compressed at a higher bit rate I thought the 212HT's compression driver shone more with that. Maybe placebo, maybe bias -- who knows. But the 212TT - might give the larger soundstage of the 212HT - at some cost savings!

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Last edited by Archaea; 09-30-2014 at 05:08 PM.
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Old 09-30-2014, 05:05 PM
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It'll be priced between the two. Something like 1799 or 1899. There's a big gap between the two and this will fill that.
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Old 09-30-2014, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
@jparker36
movies primarily = 228HT - - because with DD or DTS movie tracks, or quality digital tracks you'll be hard pressed (if not impossible) to tell the difference (in my experience)
music primarily = 212HT - - because it has a larger, more enjoyable soundstage for 2 channel use.
He was talking about the new 212TT....and actually making a joke about a post a few above his. You sell your 228s and lose all touch of JTR fever!!!!
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Old 09-30-2014, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
Almost all commercial subs have DSP. People still correct them for the room response. Many with active crossovers will correct first for an even sound power response close mic and then a smooth frequency response at the listening position.

I read that Mark disabled the DSP on his subs for integration in TheBland's room and only used Dirac Live.

Changing the volume is DSP. People change the trim levels and then change the volume. That is DSP on top of DSP.
Carl was confused in his statement. The SubMersive's in thebland's room were the same as any other SubMersive. He must have been referring to the 2 channel QSC DSP-30 that was previously in the system that I had used to make sure the front/rear subs could blend together before calibration. Had we not run out of time, I would have put it back in and let Dirac handle just 1 subwoofer output as I got a much better seat-seat response than Dirac did the way it was run. I suspect it would have been better if it was measured from all seats, but the HF might have also not been as good at the main seats. This was more a limitation of how the RS20i allows subwoofer routing vs Dirac correction rather than any issue with Dirac.

A couple layers of DSP is always a bad thing, and if it's inserted where there isn't need or an additional analog-digital conversion, I wouldn't really worry about it so long as each step has a worthwhile purpose.
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Old 09-30-2014, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by jparker36 View Post
Should I buy the 228HT or the 212TT for X more?


There are quite a few sellers right now for the 212s. I would jump on them. 7 Channel might still have his.
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Old 09-30-2014, 10:16 PM
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There are quite a few sellers right now for the 212s. I would jump on them. 7 Channel might still have his.
A 7.2.4 setup with all 212...7 channels for 212, 2 shifters, and 4 more 212 on the ceiling for Atmos...
Oh, that would meet our overkill standards
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Old 09-30-2014, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post
A 7.2.4 setup with all 212...7 channels for 212, 2 shifters, and 4 more 212 on the ceiling for Atmos...
Oh, that would meet our overkill standards
I love overkill, always have.
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Old 09-30-2014, 11:09 PM
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Ok.. Im just about done messing around with this thing. I just wanna enjoy for now. My wife thinks im chronic swearing at the graphs after each sweeps. She said just plug those file cabinates and enjoy. lol... Anyway, I fixed that phase issue a little at the 65-75hz region I had when I set all speakers to small. And XO 80hz. MCACC had my sub distance at 13' at first. Now im down to 9'. I know weird right? I thought setting it a further setting will delay the mains longer for the sub to catch up. Well that's what I research and read about atleast.. But now its late so I can't hit it at reference for a demo. But when I do, I'll switch from small to large for the L/R only. To see which sounds better for me with movies. My cc 215RM I keep at small always. BTW, the lower region is a 5 db HC through the antimode 2.0..

Click image for larger version

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Old 10-01-2014, 02:50 AM
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Amazing frequency response, Rhed!
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Old 10-01-2014, 06:31 AM
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Outstanding Rhed!
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Old 10-01-2014, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by rhed View Post
Ok.. Im just about done messing around with this thing. I just wanna enjoy for now. My wife thinks im chronic swearing at the graphs after each sweeps. She said just plug those file cabinates and enjoy. lol... Anyway, I fixed that phase issue a little at the 65-75hz region I had when I set all speakers to small. And XO 80hz. MCACC had my sub distance at 13' at first. Now im down to 9'. I know weird right? I thought setting it a further setting will delay the mains longer for the sub to catch up. Well that's what I research and read about atleast.. But now its late so I can't hit it at reference for a demo. But when I do, I'll switch from small to large for the L/R only. To see which sounds better for me with movies. My cc 215RM I keep at small always. BTW, the lower region is a 5 db HC through the antimode 2.0..

Attachment 289153
Is this graph with room treatments installed?

Opinions are not facts.
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Old 10-01-2014, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post
From Jeff on Facebook: "Close but no it doesn't use the same cd as the 228. TT= two-way, theater."
http://www.bmsspeakers.com/index.php?id=bms_4554
This would be my guess as to the CD he may use. This CD has a 1.4" throat.
Chris

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Awesome graph. that's the best in room FR I've seen.

Last edited by countryWV; 10-01-2014 at 09:22 AM.
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Old 10-01-2014, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by rhed View Post
Ok.. Im just about done messing around with this thing. I just wanna enjoy for now. My wife thinks im chronic swearing at the graphs after each sweeps. She said just plug those file cabinates and enjoy. lol... Anyway, I fixed that phase issue a little at the 65-75hz region I had when I set all speakers to small. And XO 80hz. MCACC had my sub distance at 13' at first. Now im down to 9'. I know weird right? I thought setting it a further setting will delay the mains longer for the sub to catch up. Well that's what I research and read about atleast.. But now its late so I can't hit it at reference for a demo. But when I do, I'll switch from small to large for the L/R only. To see which sounds better for me with movies. My cc 215RM I keep at small always. BTW, the lower region is a 5 db HC through the antimode 2.0..

Attachment 289153
You should enjoy now with a graph like that....that is pretty amazing and I hope I can get close to that when my 215's arrive.

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Old 10-01-2014, 08:41 AM
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And I saw a speaker with a pair of 12" speakers that I figured could put out tremendous amounts of midbass. And maybe they can, but apparently I need to give them a few thousand watts and DSP, even though so many people were saying these things are so sensitive, they can be driven with an AVR. I figured I was even better by having a 300w outboard amp.
I've had many speakers and they all required some eq and sufficient power. Seems to me if you spent a couple hundred bucks on a minidsp you could eq to your liking and likely not need more power to do so. Then you could be happy and just enjoy the sound rather than talking about how unhappy you are? Either do something to fix it or sell them already lol.
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(3) JTR Noesis 212HT (LCR)
(2) JTR Single 8 (wides)
(2) JTR Slanted 8 (sides)
(2) DIY Eminence 10" coax (rear Surrounds)
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(2) Mach5 UXL-18's sealed
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Old 10-01-2014, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Is this graph with room treatments installed?
Yes.. I made some of my own with the help of this forum. And thank you guys for everything.. I've learn a lot in the process with the help of this JTR thread..
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Last edited by rhed; 10-01-2014 at 09:41 AM.
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Old 10-01-2014, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhed View Post
Yes.. I made some of my own with the help of this forum. And thank you guys for everything.. I've learn a lot in the process with the help of this JTR thread..
Well it paid off ... great looking FR!

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