Official JTR speaker thread - Page 793 - AVS Forum
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Old 09-28-2014, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhed View Post
I believe you.. Man, wish my wife agreed with me on these subs before I got the S2's. I should have not build those model boxes to show the wifey how big they was gonna be. I should have just went with OS and deal with her after. Im sure that wouldn't have lead to a divorce right? lol... As it stands, lbrown with 3 of them probably stumps out most systems around this forum including mines. And he probably doesn't even know it..

You are right - lbrown has never taken them anywhere near their limits - unless Jeff has been at the helm? I would have been afraid to take the Orbit Shifters as loud as Jeff Permanian took them at the 2012 meet during the playtime - and I would never have realized they went that loud. Admittedly there was distortion and the drivers were played beyond where they were comfortable - but carp saying he was laughing his rear end off --- we all were - there were giddy smiles and uncontrolled laughter everywhere and a paralleled look of unbelief upon any man who hadn't already fled the room for fear of structural safety.

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Old 09-28-2014, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
Oh yes, the OS were insane. Yes my breathing was affected and it made me laugh my a** off it was so ridiculous.

The sealed setup didn't have that amount of power up high IMO. However the low stuff that you don't hear but only feel was noticeably stronger on the 16 subs.

So, it makes sense that your ears were raw after the OS, because IMO the higher the frequency the more damaging to our ears when it comes to bass. I can't find any proof of that but I bet it's true.

Which did I like better? Hmmm not sure. Both demo's were awesome.

agreed...
Which did I like better?
I thought the dual Orbit Shifters put on more of a jaw dropping - HOLY CRAP performance in the 3500 cubic foot room. While the sixteen 18"ers sounded much cleaner at ridiculous levels in the 1500 cubic foot room.
As to the lowest frequencies --- personally the subsonic content is still mostly a gimmick to me. --- Though I'd like to experience popalocks 16 subs on a wooden floor, instead of a basement concrete slab and see if that persuaded differently.
I think the Orbit Shifters were more impressive for a brief WOWZERS demo!
At decision time? I'd take 16 sealed over dual orbit shifters. Again I think EQ plays into our impressions (at least my impresssions) quite a bit. If popalock made a reverse house curve on his sixteen 18's (instead of his ulftard curve) and played them to max volume --- saving all the amp power he was throwing at the <20hz frequencies --- well --- we might all be truly deaf, but we probably would have had a very different demo. I don't know what sixteen 18" drivers could hit max SPL wise in a 1500 cubic foot room at 50hz - - - but I have to imagine it would be something to remember.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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Last edited by Archaea; 09-28-2014 at 01:00 PM.
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Old 09-28-2014, 02:20 PM
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That night at your place with the dual OS's - if I remember right Jeff went to 10 over reference on the master volume with the subs crazy hot above that.

You guys that have Orbit Shifters - you have not pushed them to their limits if you have never tripped dedicated 20 amp lines. We did that a few times that night. You may not want to try that out however because as Archaea has said the bass broke all kinds of components and the cracked the grout in his kitchen.
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Old 09-28-2014, 02:26 PM
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@Gorilla83

Yep, fits like a glove.
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Old 09-28-2014, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhed View Post
Nabs.. The 215's will be epic when you get them. Remember though, take your time in setting things up. I made that mistake many of times. Right when I think it's all good. When I run measurements, the results is terrible. Then I use to say, ah forget it, it sounds good to me. Knowing having a dip in the 85-90hz or 110-130hz region. Then wondering what it would sound like if those regions was up. Move your subs around first. Then play with toe ins for a good response before EQ. That's what im doing today. Fudge around with phase from the subs to the mains and toe in's. Right now the L/R's are facing roughly 15 degrees toe in. I might try straight forward since that 215's has a wide dispersion. My subs now where is placed is optimal atm. I have one on each left and right on the side walls (not symmetrical). And 2 at the rear (also not symmetrical).Though I cant move them to much right now since each dedicated circuit is right next to subs. And Ive only got 3-4 feet of power cord movement. Unless I make longer ones with the powercon connectors. Besides moving these things around is a bi8th. And though I posted a decent graph of the results yesturday. And it sounds friggin great. I wanna see if I can get more out of the system. Guess Im getting greedy lol.. BTW, have you decided on amps yet?
Not 100% sure at the moment but leaning towards to Crown XLS-1500's. To start though...I will stay with my Parasound so as not to introduce to many differences initially.

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Old 09-28-2014, 02:55 PM
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SOWK, no problems with WOTW at reference with a 18hpf in place. That being said, thats EQ'd flat.

All this talk of the OS's got me thinking, I've got my 2 G-horns which are very comparable to the OS's.... It takes about 3 of my 21's to equal 1 x G-horn to around 60hz. So it's pretty much 6 x 21's (more or less) to equal the 2 G-horns. Pop adding having 8 or 16 x 18's is only a 6dB gain running 16 vs 8.... Once you get into big numbers of subs, it's not nearly as impressive SPL wise, when you start adding more since you need to double them to get 6dB with all fully powered. That being said, I'd take the sealed system over horns any day of the week, sealed just sounds better. True you need a ton to keep up but it's not just about sheer SPL (although thats pretty fun) it's about SQ AND sheer spl LOL.

Now imagine 2 x os's and 8 x 21's pounding at you nearfield.

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Old 09-28-2014, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
Is that with the LFE going to them?
yup. If you are hitting the limits and don't have a bunch of EQ, you must have a HUGE room.

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Old 09-28-2014, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
yup. If you are hitting the limits and don't have a bunch of EQ, you must have a HUGE room.
No EQ. And I am 18 feet away from the JTR 215's.
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Old 09-28-2014, 03:17 PM
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Based off the math, I should be able to hit 116dB at listening position with 3 db compression.

Aka the max usable output of the JTR's at 1 meter + my distance.

So I still should have 1 dB headroom even with the LFE channel routed into it.

And that's if the LFE channel is maxed out at it 115dB. I'm not even sure WOTW gets to the max LFE output.

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Old 09-28-2014, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
No EQ. And I am 18 feet away from the JTR 215's.
Wow.. 18 feet? That's a long ways down. I'm only 12 feet away. What kind of subs your running with these. I'd say keep the 215's and add som OS to the mix.. That I think is what your looking for. You must be a bass head and you don't know it..lol
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Old 09-28-2014, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
You are right - lbrown has never taken them anywhere near their limits - unless Jeff has been at the helm? I would have been afraid to take the Orbit Shifters as loud as Jeff Permanian took them at the 2012 meet during the playtime - and I would never have realized they went that loud. Admittedly there was distortion and the drivers were played beyond where they were comfortable - but carp saying he was laughing his rear end off --- we all were - there were giddy smiles and uncontrolled laughter everywhere and a paralleled look of unbelief upon any man who hadn't already fled the room for fear of structural safety.
Yeah, Jeff does go really loud with some of the demos in fact he had my old def techs rears smoking with one of the clips way above reference. Good sales tactic to make me get the S8's .


I would love to hear one of these mega sealed bass systems for comparison. I think at these levels of equipment, the room and equipment set up is soooo important. Many on this thread/forum have really good knowledge and skill and it is fun learning from them and sharing what works. Right now I think the setup I am working on is like a big huge statue that is taking good form, but needs more polishing to reach its potential.

Pre-Pro: Emotiva XMC-1, DSP: Mini DSP 2x4 balanced
Amplifier: Sunfire TGA7400, Lab Gruppen FP10000Q
Speakers: JTR Noesis 212HT (LCR), JTR Slant 8's (surrounds), 3 Orbit Shifter LFU's
Sources: PS3, HTPC, Dish Network
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Old 09-28-2014, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
So lbrown105, how is the XMC-1 working out? My number came up and I need to pull the trigger this week or loose my place in line

Since I'm sending the Integra off for service (drop outs), the timing is good for an Emo trial ...
I do like it so far and as reference I am coming from a UMC-1. It has a really nice PEQ section and fully balanced reference signal path and those two thing might be interesting for your two channel listening with the 215's. HDMI switching is good, some typical handshake delays (2 seconds) but no glaring problems. I hate to get into the whole sound quality piece because like one of my previous posts I think setup is so critical, but the XMC-1 is very capable and may be a very good fit for those who want HT and two channel performance in one unit. Mine doesn't have the Dirac feature installed yet, so I anxious to see what that can bring to the table too. LMK if you have any specific questions and I will try to help.

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Amplifier: Sunfire TGA7400, Lab Gruppen FP10000Q
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Old 09-28-2014, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
@Gorilla83

Yep, fits like a glove.
Nice! If I had those subs, I'd put those up front next to the 215's to show them off those drivers.. Lol.. Very nice indeed..
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Old 09-28-2014, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
SOWK, no problems with WOTW at reference with a 18hpf in place. That being said, thats EQ'd flat.

All this talk of the OS's got me thinking, I've got my 2 G-horns which are very comparable to the OS's.... It takes about 3 of my 21's to equal 1 x G-horn to around 60hz. So it's pretty much 6 x 21's (more or less) to equal the 2 G-horns. Pop adding having 8 or 16 x 18's is only a 6dB gain running 16 vs 8.... Once you get into big numbers of subs, it's not nearly as impressive SPL wise, when you start adding more since you need to double them to get 6dB with all fully powered. That being said, I'd take the sealed system over horns any day of the week, sealed just sounds better. True you need a ton to keep up but it's not just about sheer SPL (although thats pretty fun) it's about SQ AND sheer spl LOL.

Now imagine 2 x os's and 8 x 21's pounding at you nearfield.
I tend to agree that ported sounds better. I had said awhile back that I would never go back to ported and here I am back to ported, go figure. I myself feel that the 215s with music need a touch more bass. I was talking with Andrew this morning and I would like to try and run the 215's maybe crossed at 40 or 50hz and let the 18's handle everything else. Gotta lotta tinkering to do to get the sound I am looking for. Ultimately what probably is going to happen is that I am going to move my sealed Triax's into the theater and the ported primates into the living room where I could just let them loose.

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Old 09-28-2014, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
The JTR 215RT's maxed out the budget.

I am running dual Seaton SubMersives as the LFE and was planning to also run the JTR 215RT as LFE as well.

Would have been the equivalent of 5 SubMersives.
Those SubM's are baddass subs. I had a chance to hear 8 Submersives at the Axpona show. 4 F2's up front and 4 SubM's at the rear. Friggin awsome. If you do sell, you might wind up losing some money. So I'd say keep them and add maybe 2 more Submersives with the slave amp. So later, you can just add the slave units. Or just add 2 OS and done...
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Old 09-28-2014, 04:03 PM
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I'm not sure who will have to show more restraint at RMAF with the 215RTs - Jeff or myself.

I heard Seaton's room got a little loud at Axpona.

From the RMAF FAQs:
Quote:
All sound must be turned off by 10pm each evening. Sound levels are not to exceed 85dB at any time.
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Old 09-28-2014, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
I tend to agree that ported sounds better. I had said awhile back that I would never go back to ported and here I am back to ported, go figure. I myself feel that the 215s with music need a touch more bass. I was talking with Andrew this morning and I would like to try and run the 215's maybe crossed at 40 or 50hz and let the 18's handle everything else. Gotta lotta tinkering to do to get the sound I am looking for.
Heck ya! thats the fun of having a system! I xover my 215's at 80hz unless I'm running 2 channel music. Personally I'd rather run my subs than the 215's for movies as having ported, sealed AND horns is a bit much LOL. I have them setup that for late night viewing, with the flip of a switch, I can run them full range with LFE.

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Old 09-28-2014, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
I'm not sure who will have to show more restraint at RMAF with the 215RTs - Jeff or myself.

I heard Seaton's room got a little loud at Axpona.

From the RMAF FAQs:
DD.. I've been looking into jriver lately. Gonna jump on it after I've fully dialed in my system. And since I've got my LT hooked up to it which will stay. Just something to get into..
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Old 09-28-2014, 05:08 PM
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Well...I've been playing with Omnimic and I've generated a FR graph for my LCR and here it is:
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Old 09-28-2014, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Nabs17 View Post
Well...I've been playing with Omnimic and I've generated a FR graph for my LCR and here it is:

I'm guessing that you're also running your subs too?
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Old 09-28-2014, 05:12 PM
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I'm guessing that you're also running your subs too?
Yes and current x-over is 80.

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Old 09-28-2014, 05:16 PM
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Yes and current x-over is 80.
I was wondering because you said "I generated a FR for my LCR's" and I'm looking at it thinking there's no way 212's play down to 20hz like that!....lol
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Old 09-28-2014, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
I was wondering because you said "I generated a FR for my LCR's" and I'm looking at it thinking there's no way 212's play down to 20hz like that!....lol

Sorry for the confusion but the graph is with my current speakers which are McIntosh's and my current subs which are SVS PB12/2's. I'm currently awaiting my 215RT's and RM. I just got this Omnimic and am trying to figure it out and am by no means an expert....this is my first attempt at a FR graph....I think I did it right based upon the instructions. I want to figure it out before the 215's come so then I'll know what I'm doing when I want to create a FR graph.

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Old 09-28-2014, 06:06 PM
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I've been meaning to take measurements with my new equipment for a while and I finally found some time today. The following are measurements of one of my sealed 212HT-LP speaker taken outside.

Gray - Taken a few weeks ago with my MiniDSP UMIK-1 microphone, through my Sherbourn PT-7030 preamp, and Outlaw 755 (300w) amp. Speaker was up about 4' off the ground. Microphone was 3' in front of the horn.

Blue - Taken today using a quick speaker platform I put together a couple days ago using scrap I had available. Platform is 6' off the ground on a slope. The microphone in that location is about 8' high. Microphone is an Earthworks M50 to a RME Fireface UC mic amp/digital interface to a iNuke 6000 amplifier. For this first measurement I had the amp channel gain at half. Microphone was 3' in front of the horn.

Yellow - Same as the blue but the iNuke 6000 amp channel was at 3/4 gain and adjusted down in REW to match previous measurement levels.


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Old 09-28-2014, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
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Depends on what frequency range you're asking about, the Triax can go head to head with a Cap S2 so I would think it would be the same as comparing an S2 to a OS.
I must disagree. I have heard eight sealed eighteens at several houses now. Gorilla83, carp, mine. In my real world experience in three different rooms, Eight 18"s can't hit the volume level of two orbit shifters, nor could eight 15"s at desertdomes, nor could 16 18"s at popalocks. Two Orbit Shifters at max output are savage! Triaxes are only going to be comparable or better the Orbit Shifters below the Orbit Shifter horn's tune.

This isn't a knock on the Triax, its a reality of a horn design with a high excursion 18" in a quality horn design.

Sound quality and flat frequency response plot may be a different story at max outputs, but the orbit Shifter is a SPL output monster.
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Old 09-28-2014, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
That night at your place with the dual OS's - if I remember right Jeff went to 10 over reference on the master volume with the subs crazy hot above that.

You guys that have Orbit Shifters - you have not pushed them to their limits if you have never tripped dedicated 20 amp lines. We did that a few times that night. You may not want to try that out however because as Archaea has said the bass broke all kinds of components and the cracked the grout in his kitchen.
I agree...I have never pushed mine to their limits...yet. I'm honestly scared for my hearing and really don't need to with normal use. Plus, I'm running both on 15 amp outlets still and they still bring ferocious amounts of fury at a +10 master volume. One day though...nervously...one day.
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---------------------------------------------------------------
for sale/trade: Final Price Drop ~ BNIB LG OLED Curved TV 55EA9800 ~Best Black Levels Ever~ 3-yr Extended Warranty Included
ht: LCR JTR 212HT~Surr. Four JTR 8LP~Hi/Wi Four Elemental Designs Cinema 6 eD6c~Subs Two JTR Orbit Shifter LFU~AV Marantz SR7008
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Old 09-28-2014, 07:45 PM
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Curios. What do you guys play when cranking it to those insane levels??
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Old 09-28-2014, 07:51 PM
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Your Home Theater room isn't what I had imagined...not that I am judging
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Old 09-28-2014, 07:56 PM
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Your Home Theater room isn't what I had imagined...not that I am judging
Someone mentioned I might have had room modes but I called pest control and they couldn't help me. So I figured I'd just get rid of the room completely, which should take care of modes...whatever they are.

But looking at the graph, for a speaker that is supposed to be -3db down at 70Hz, I'm not seeing it. I only want them to play down to 80 Hz so I'll see if I can boost the bottom end with a linkwitz transform or similar and throw a lot more power at them.

Oh and looking at the dip from 100-300, I guess I know why I've been unhappy with the midbass...even though I've been boosting it. Looks like power and lots of DSP should address...I hope.
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Old 09-28-2014, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Someone mentioned I might have had room modes but I called pest control and they couldn't help me. So I figured I'd just get rid of the room completely, which should take care of modes...whatever they are.

But looking at the graph, for a speaker that is supposed to be -3db down at 70Hz, I'm not seeing it. I only want them to play down to 80 Hz so I'll see if I can boost the bottom end with a linkwitz transform or similar and throw a lot more power at them.

Oh and looking at the dip from 100-300, I guess I know why I've been unhappy with the midbass...even though I've been boosting it. Looks like power and lots of DSP should address...I hope.

This most def proves the dip is not mode related all on its own for sure! I couldn't handle that dip at all. Seems like it's rather large and deep for these speakers, no?
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