Official JTR speaker thread - Page 795 - AVS Forum
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post #23821 of 23850 Old Yesterday, 02:30 PM
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I think @carp used 150 Hz crossover setting on his ported 212's with his sub system. I also think when you get the crossover freq optimized between your sealed 212's and your subs you will be good. Remember, advise is just advise and your measurements in your space are what matters most (that and how it sounds to your ears).

Perhaps a little PEQ to the 212's can help with the sub-sat integration a the response sure doesnt extend much past 90 Hz based on your data.

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post #23822 of 23850 Old Yesterday, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by NWCgrad View Post
I think @carp used 150 Hz crossover setting on his ported 212's with his sub system. I also think when you get the crossover freq optimized between your sealed 212's and your subs you will be good. Remember, advise is just advise and your measurements in your space are what matters most (that and how it sounds to your ears).

Perhaps a little PEQ to the 212's can help with the sub-sat integration a the response sure doesn't extend much past 90 Hz based on your data.

Yep, I liked a 150hz crossover because I could tailor the house curve exactly how I liked it since I have the minidsp to eq the subs but at the time didn't have a way to eq the 212's.

However, more recently (before selling) I hooked up the 212's to a inuke 3000dsp (and switched to a 80 hz crossover) I was able to get the exact same house curve by eqing the mains down to 80hz.

IMO the 212's have so much headroom that you can eq them however you want without taxing the amp. You could boost the ever living crap out of 80-150hz using a minidsp or inuke dsp with no issues at all.

Anyway, that was my experience using an amp and eq with the 212's.
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post #23823 of 23850 Old Yesterday, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Yep, I confuse myself all of the time...to be clear, it is a dip when my subs are involved but is simply the speaker rolling off.



I currently have 3 sealed LMS-5400s and I have tried them crossed much higher than 80Hz but haven't had them sounding as good as I wanted. Now that I have more confidence in my measuring equipment, I'll take another crack at it and see what I can do in my room as soon as time allows.



Very, very good point on the frequency range as opposed to what I'm measuring. Couldn't you have caught me before I built that monstrosity of a speaker stand AND bought a heavy duty mic stand.

Thanks for the feedback TuxedoCivic. And rcohen.

Have you tried the audyssey sub distance tweak? (I can't remember what avr you use). This helped a lot for my crossover region.
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post #23824 of 23850 Old Yesterday, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
Actually 50' is the target Just rent a scissor lift for the day.
nah to really do a measurement right you have to be on the open ocean with no land in sight, on a pontoon made of acoustic foam.



* I'm just having fun here --- I don't doubt there is an absolutely proper way to measuring these things - but I admit when I saw dgage's home made outdoor measuring rig - I thought - holy cow he went above and beyond what most folk would do to prove it wasn't soley a room issue.

dgage - at this point - I'd say just sell your 212LP, or ask Jeff for a refund. You've given them a good old fashioned try. I'm quite sure Jeff doesn't want an unsatisfied customer. But, make sure and ding them up a little bit and I'll buy them as B- stock to go behind my baffle wall. If dlbeck has the 212LP in his theater - then I already know I'd love to give a pair a home after demoing his theater this spring! I think what it boils down to is people hear things differently. If the speakers don't make you grin ear to ear - buy some that do! When we did the little blind comparison at dlbecks a year or two ago between Salk and JTR 212HT - I chose JTR blind on everything. There were other guys in the same room at the same time that chose Salk blind on everything. We were all in the same room, moving around seats, all hearing the same tracks at the same times - and yet there were avid enthusiasts who chose different winners. My clear lesson, was not everyone hears/likes the same thing. On music that blind test was nearly a 50/50 split. So, maybe I'm going against the grain here, but I'd say just sell them and buy something that makes you happier right out of the box - especially if it's for your lifelong set.
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"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #23825 of 23850 Old Yesterday, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NWCgrad View Post
I think @carp used 150 Hz crossover setting on his ported 212's with his sub system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
Yep, I liked a 150hz crossover


ewwwwwwwww --- high crossovers to subs (even sealed) yuck. Success with this is VERY room dependant from a subjective sound assessment.


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Originally Posted by carp View Post
IMO the 212's have so much headroom that you can eq them however you want without taxing the amp. You could boost the ever living crap out of 80-150hz using a minidsp or inuke dsp with no issues at all.
That was my recommendation too. The 212 have like 15 dB of headroom over reference - plenty to EQ anyway you want. I think dage's response was he didn't want to run a different amp than he already had -- to spend more money buying something capable of powering the mid bass EQ he prefered.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #23826 of 23850 Old Yesterday, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Couldn't you have caught me before I built that monstrosity of a speaker stand AND bought a heavy duty mic stand.
It's no loss really, I bet you'll use it again. And now you've provided the forum with excellent >400hz data on the 212. I also wouldn't doubt if you did a GP measurement it's pretty close to your 'in the air' measurement. But if you do a GP you'll have a lot more confidence in the results. Post it up if you do. Would be really interesting. (tip, lay speaker on it's side and put the mic 6ft away. Keep the setup away from all buildings. Keep the mic equidistant from both woofers)

Oh and I second Archaea's point that you've gone above and beyond to get the information you seek. Good work.
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post #23827 of 23850 Old Yesterday, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
ewwwwwwwww --- high crossovers to subs (even sealed) yuck. Success with this is VERY room dependant from a subjective sound assessment.

Haha, you heard the 150hz crossover on my system when it was setup that way many times and never did you say ewww. It's all in the frequency response.

Yes, just selecting 150hz for a crossover will sound like butt. However, if you tailor the eq so that it smoothly drops from 150hz down to 80hz in a nice house curve it can sound great IMO.

However, it never sounded right for movies so I never used anything but 80hz crossover for movies.


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post #23828 of 23850 Old Yesterday, 05:08 PM
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BTW, I now crossover at... nothing. Well, as far as the mains go.


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post #23829 of 23850 Old Yesterday, 05:25 PM
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Thanks for the positive feedback guys. Really appreciate it. I posted the results and I kept asking myself what I expected to get out of it and what were my motivations. I think it was a little bit of several things but ultimately it did come down to my frustration that the great JTR Noesis 212s just weren't working the way I expected and so I figured it had to be my room or my knowledge. I feel better having measuring equipment that I (MYSELF) have confidence in. All I've heard from Jeff (not directly) and others is that the 212s have plenty of midbass but I wasn't able to replicate. Now that I have measurements that I believe in and thankfully mirror dlbecks, I now feel confident that I can move forward. As we all know, there are a myriad of things I can try in the room from increasing EQ, increasing power, increasing subs, etc but step 1 was figuring out the root cause issue, which I now feel I have done. Once I try a few things, I can figure out what works and is acceptable to me but I will definitely try various things. And I will likely talk to Jeff at some point, primarily if I want to switch to ported 212s.

The sad thing is that if it weren't for MY perceived issues with the midbass, I would absolutely be ecstatic with my 212s as I like the midrange and upper range so much. I've heard the Cat12, Danley SH50, and JTR 215s and the 212 is my favorite of the set in terms of midrange and upper range. I will caveat that I haven't heard music on the Cat12s so that one isn't out of the running but I like the 212 better than the 215 and Danley for midrange and upper frequencies. The 215RM and Cat12 have the best midbass I've heard but I didn't get to listen to the SH50s at the same time. So I guess there is no perfect speaker out there for me yet. Maybe it is the ported 212 or augmented 212. I don't see myself selling the 212s and taking a bath on the money I spent, especially when I don't know what speaker I'd replace them with.

I went and bought a laser pointer (thanks rcohen) so I'll make sure the microphone is pointed in the correct location next time and I'll measure on the ground tomorrow. Thanks for the pointer TuxedoCivic of setting the speaker on its side because I'm sure I would have measured it upright if you hadn't said anything.

Thanks again for the support guys.

David
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post #23830 of 23850 Old Yesterday, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
Haha, you heard the 150hz crossover on my system when it was setup that way many times and never did you say ewww. It's all in the frequency response.

Yes, just selecting 150hz for a crossover will sound like butt. However, if you tailor the eq so that it smoothly drops from 150hz down to 80hz in a nice house curve it can sound great IMO.

However, it never sounded right for movies so I never used anything but 80hz crossover for movies.
Hell I tried up to 200Hz to see if I could get shoot you in the chest midbass but I didn't like it...and my LMS-5400s roll off at 150Hz. It was around that point that I was really frustrated and frankly stopped trying to figure it out. Now that I have confidence that it isn't my room and I have better measuring equipment, I will attack the issue with renewed vigor and see what I can come up with.
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post #23831 of 23850 Old Yesterday, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
Have you tried the audyssey sub distance tweak? (I can't remember what avr you use). This helped a lot for my crossover region.
I have a Sherbourn PT-7030 preamp which doesn't have any built-in room correction, only PEQ, and I also have a MiniDSP NanoAVR and a MiniDSP 10x10HD (plan to use it for distributed audio). So no room correction tweaks. I had considered setting up JRiver since I own a copy but I don't know of a good solution for bringing Tivo signal through to Jriver, which is the only thing stopping me frm using that solution. I had even considered the AudioLense room correction plugin that DesertDome seems to like.
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I have a Sherbourn PT-7030 preamp which doesn't have any built-in room correction, only PEQ, and I also have a MiniDSP NanoAVR and a MiniDSP 10x10HD (plan to use it for distributed audio). So no room correction tweaks. I had considered setting up JRiver since I own a copy but I don't know of a good solution for bringing Tivo signal through to Jriver, which is the only thing stopping me frm using that solution. I had even considered the AudioLense room correction plugin that DesertDome seems to like.
I understand you can use the Line In to run stuff through JRiver, although I haven't tried that.

I assume you've seen this guy?
http://www.minidsp.com/products/ht-series/nanoavr-dl


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post #23833 of 23850 Old Yesterday, 07:09 PM
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Has anyone measured 212LPs or 212HTs in vs. out of a baffle wall?
Does that give a nice low-end boost?


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post #23834 of 23850 Old Yesterday, 07:10 PM
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I understand you can use the Line In to run stuff through JRiver, although I haven't tried that.

I assume you've seen this guy?
http://www.minidsp.com/products/ht-series/nanoavr-dl
My only concern with the Line In for JRiver is having to deal with A/V sync issues that I've read about. May be a non-issue as I haven't looked recently.

I did indeed see the announcement for the NanoAVR but haven't seen(or looked) any reviews of the new Dirac version. I'm just wondering if the NanoAVR has enough processing power to give a true Dirac Live experience but will keep my eyes open. Have you seen any reviews?
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My only concern with the Line In for JRiver is having to deal with A/V sync issues that I've read about. May be a non-issue as I haven't looked recently.

I did indeed see the announcement for the NanoAVR but haven't seen(or looked) any reviews of the new Dirac version. I'm just wondering if the NanoAVR has enough processing power to give a true Dirac Live experience but will keep my eyes open. Have you seen any reviews?
I've used Dirac Live on PC a lot, but not the MiniDSP implementation. I don't think it's quite out, yet. Dirac Live on PC only uses 3% CPU for 7.1 @ 48khz, so hopefully the MiniDSP can do it. For lower end hardware, Dirac implementations limit the sample rate and/or use shorter FIR filters and shift more of the duties to the IIR filters, which is supposed to be subtle. It's the higher sample rates that really chew up the CPU. 2x the sample rate = 4x the CPU.

In general, I've been extremely happy with Dirac, but I've been struggling with the 212s, due to the extended high frequency response fighting the curve editor. Also, Dirac currently has an 8 channel limit (unless you get a Datasat) and doesn't include fancy crossover features, like Audiolense XO or Acourate.


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My only concern with the Line In for JRiver is having to deal with A/V sync issues that I've read about. May be a non-issue as I haven't looked recently.

I did indeed see the announcement for the NanoAVR but haven't seen(or looked) any reviews of the new Dirac version. I'm just wondering if the NanoAVR has enough processing power to give a true Dirac Live experience but will keep my eyes open. Have you seen any reviews?
That reminds me, they said they were going to add a tuning hot-key...
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/inde...2813#msg612813


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post #23837 of 23850 Old Yesterday, 07:25 PM
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Good info and if the MiniDSP Dirac implementation is good, that could be a very nice and powerful system for the price. But other than that, your additional information actually pushed me away from Dirac and further toward Audiolense XO. Good info though. Thanks.
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Didn't I hear some of the KC contingent complain about the Chiefs being bad this year? They sure do look like a good team with the dismantling of New England...were you trying to trick someone into making a stupid bet?
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post #23839 of 23850 Old Yesterday, 08:19 PM
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As a long suffering chiefs fan I did not see this one coming.

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As a long suffering chiefs fan I did not see this one coming.
Wow! That is an old fashioned shellacking! I am still under my rock from yesterdays Eagles game. I honestly have no idea how we were 3-0.

Anyway speaking of Philly and the Chiefs, I just remembered a bar in South Philly of all places where there is a Chiefs themed bar. I don't know how this happened, but you Chiefs fans have a safe place if you should hit the NE again for a GTG.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nfl--fo...194336066.html


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Has anyone measured 212LPs or 212HTs in vs. out of a baffle wall?
Does that give a nice low-end boost?
here is the 212HT at 1M from the horn, with the mic equidistant between the woofers. The second measurement is from the MLP with the speaker in the baffle wall (with a 1/3 octave -5dB cut if you can believe it!). Both are running full range
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post #23842 of 23850 Old Yesterday, 10:12 PM
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here is the 212HT at 1M from the horn, with the mic equidistant between the woofers. The second measurement is from the MLP with the speaker in the baffle wall (with a 1/3 octave -5dB cut if you can believe it!). Both are running full range
I was going to ask what you were powering it with until I looked at the second graph. An LG huh? Really? For a speaker that can hit reference with an AVR? So now I know how to fix all of my problems, throw 2000w at the problem. LOL! I must say that looks like a VERY nice frequency response. Unfortunately for me we are mixing apples and oranges in terms of ported vs sealed.
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I was going to ask what you were powering it with until I looked at the second graph. An LG huh? Really? For a speaker that can hit reference with an AVR? So now I know how to fix all of my problems, throw 2000w at the problem. LOL! I must say that looks like a VERY nice frequency response. Unfortunately for me we are mixing apples and oranges in terms of ported vs sealed.
The baffle wall might be the major difference, rather than the amp or port. It would be interesting to see what kind of a difference it makes on the 212LP. A baffle wall eliminates interference from the back wall and boosts bass without more wattage.


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I was shocked at how well we played Denver in Denver but this is really out of left field. Andy Reid's play calling and changing alignments were brilliant last night!


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I would talk with Jeff. From the FR you showed on your 212LP I would not have thought it meets spec. Maybe try the GP measurement as suggested. Your speaker should have an F3 of 70hz.
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Andy Reid's play calling and changing alignments were brilliant last night!
I don't think I have ever heard Brilliant and Andy Reid in a short sentence ever

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I don't think I have ever heard Brilliant and Andy Reid in a short sentence ever
Lol but he was for sure last night! Brady was one mad mutha!
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From an outside perspective he was a great coach for you guys. Like Gruden said last night I think getting him out of the GM responsibilities and just letting him coach and call plays has freed him up to do what he does best.

4 straight NFC Championship games?!?!? Good night..... we haven't won a playoff game since Joe Montana in 1994 - 8 losses in a row in the playoffs.

Haha, all that said the clock management at the end of the first half was HORRIBLE!!


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post #23849 of 23850 Old Today, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
Wow! That is an old fashioned shellacking! I am still under my rock from yesterdays Eagles game. I honestly have no idea how we were 3-0.

Anyway speaking of Philly and the Chiefs, I just remembered a bar in South Philly of all places where there is a Chiefs themed bar. I don't know how this happened, but you Chiefs fans have a safe place if you should hit the NE again for a GTG.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nfl--fo...194336066.html


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I don't know how they were 3-0 either. Hopefully the world corrects itself and 3-13 is on the way (though maybe wins/ties vs NY and Was wouldn't be too bad).


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Projector - Panasonic PT-AE8000U
LCR speakers - JTR Noesis 228 HT
Surround/Back Speakers - Klipsch Pro Cinema KPT-8000M
Subwoofers - Dual Passive JTR Captivator Pros
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post #23850 of 23850 Old Today, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Has anyone measured 212LPs or 212HTs in vs. out of a baffle wall?
Does that give a nice low-end boost?
I doubt any such measurements have been taken (edit: except for LB above ) . The original intent of the LP models (besides a smaller form factor) was to allow for near boundary (wall/corner) placement and the sealed design (with less midbass) would mitigate close boundary interactions. Jeff was very open in describing this when the LP's were introduced. I had the 212HT LP's and never noticed a lack of midbass as mine were on the front wall near the rooms corners. That placement issue was the primary reason I ordered the LP's.

The differences are subtle but clearly, someone who specifically wants enhanced midbass and doesn't care about size should purchase the non-LP models.


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Last edited by RMK!; Today at 07:22 AM.
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