Official JTR speaker thread - Page 796 - AVS Forum
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post #23851 of 24815 Old 09-30-2014, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post
I would talk with Jeff. From the FR you showed on your 212LP I would not have thought it meets spec. Maybe try the GP measurement as suggested. Your speaker should have an F3 of 70hz.
Actually the FR is about right.. if the 212 ported version is flat, then the 212lp would be a few dB less in the Mid Bass department.. Jeff told me this himself when i was making the decision between buying hte 212 or the LP version.. i ultimately went with the LP because i always seems to prefer Sealed...

Anyways, for me, i doubt an extra 3dB would make up the mid bass i want... i don't blame the 212 at all... i think for the amount of mid bass i want, i can only achieve it through a dedicated mid bass module...
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post #23852 of 24815 Old 09-30-2014, 08:36 AM
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Its 6dB more going from sealed to ported 212s.
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post #23853 of 24815 Old 09-30-2014, 08:39 AM
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Its 6dB more going from sealed to ported 212s.
Is this confirmed? WowZa!!!
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post #23854 of 24815 Old 09-30-2014, 08:48 AM
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Is this confirmed? WowZa!!!

If Nate posted it...then it is confirmed..

He knows his stuff and has talked to Jeff many times over many years.
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post #23855 of 24815 Old 09-30-2014, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
All that yet they're only 2-2!....lol
Ha, yeah but with our schedule I thought we'd have 2 wins in November.... I guess that could still happen!


BTW, did anyone else try WOW pod scene on their 215's for SOWK? I did it but with a HPF on at 20hz, no bad sounds for me at 2 under reference which is where my inuke starts clipping.

Make sure you go Large no subs otherwise the LFE channel will probably go to the subs only and not the mains - that's how it works on my avr.
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post #23856 of 24815 Old 09-30-2014, 09:44 AM
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I just saw that Seaton is doing a two channel room at RMAF with the Catalyst 12C and miniDSP with Dirac Live. Funk Audio is in the room next door. Nathan Funk's work on these line arrays is incredible.
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post #23857 of 24815 Old 09-30-2014, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
I just saw that Seaton is doing a two channel room at RMAF with the Catalyst 12C and miniDSP with Dirac Live. Funk Audio is in the room next door. Nathan Funk's work on these line arrays is incredible.
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post #23858 of 24815 Old 09-30-2014, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
I just saw that Seaton is doing a two channel room at RMAF with the Catalyst 12C and miniDSP with Dirac Live. Funk Audio is in the room next door. Nathan Funk's work on these line arrays is incredible.

Nathan was kind enough to bring two pairs of speakers and his monster 18.2 sub to a GTG that I hosted in July. Really nice guy, but is he bringing his line array speakers to the show?
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post #23859 of 24815 Old 09-30-2014, 10:10 AM
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I doubt he is bringing the line arrays since they belong to a customer.
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post #23860 of 24815 Old 09-30-2014, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
I doubt he is bringing the line arrays since they belong to a customer.
Yeah I seen that he already has them in his theater.
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post #23861 of 24815 Old 09-30-2014, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
I doubt he is bringing the line arrays since they belong to a customer.

Yeah I know they belong to Steve, I hope to go to his place and hear them soon. I just didn't know if maybe he made two pairs, one for Steve and one pair to bring to the show.
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post #23862 of 24815 Old 09-30-2014, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
Received my D-Sonic M3-4500-3

(2400 Watts X 3 Channel @ 4 ohm)

I will try to setup tonight with my 3 JTR 215RT's and test out the War of the Wars Scene that was causing the tweeter crackle with the 400 Watt per channel Parasound.

Hopefully it will be fixed and I can move on to audio nirvana after a full calibration.
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
Ha, yeah but with our schedule I thought we'd have 2 wins in November.... I guess that could still happen!


BTW, did anyone else try WOW pod scene on their 215's for SOWK? I did it but with a HPF on at 20hz, no bad sounds for me at 2 under reference which is where my inuke starts clipping.

Make sure you go Large no subs otherwise the LFE channel will probably go to the subs only and not the mains - that's how it works on my avr.
Yes, I just did. First I ran at reference from the front row 12' and no issues. Then, I cranked it up to +6 and sat in the back row which is approx 17' from the screen/speakers and no CD "crackle or clipping (Sheesh, these things put out a lot of bass, my ears were feeling the pressure )

Good that SOWK has Jeff coming over this week cause it must be his speakers or ?

BTW carp, your Mr. Smith led Chiefs are gonna have a tough one next week.
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post #23863 of 24815 Old 09-30-2014, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
I just saw that Seaton is doing a two channel room at RMAF with the Catalyst 12C and miniDSP with Dirac Live. Funk Audio is in the room next door. Nathan Funk's work on these line arrays is incredible.
DSP on top of DSP ...

Marks got some skills and it should be interesting. Looking forward to YOUR impressions DD.

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post #23864 of 24815 Old 09-30-2014, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
DSP on top of DSP ...

Marks got some skills and it should be interesting. Looking forward to YOUR impressions DD.
I don't see why that's any worse than DSP on top of passive crossovers.
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post #23865 of 24815 Old 09-30-2014, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
I don't see why that's any worse than DSP on top of passive crossovers.
I would think Seaton Cat owners use Audyssey or Dirac on top of the DSP built into the Cats frequently. I doubt the DSP built into the Cats is suppose to work across the board for all rooms since all rooms are different and different adjustments/compensation.
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post #23866 of 24815 Old 09-30-2014, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Yes, I just did. First I ran at reference from the front row 12' and no issues. Then, I cranked it up to +6 and sat in the back row which is approx 17' from the screen/speakers and no CD "crackle or clipping (Sheesh, these things put out a lot of bass, my ears were feeling the pressure )

Good that SOWK has Jeff coming over this week cause it must be his speakers or ?

BTW carp, your Mr. Smith led Chiefs are gonna have a tough one next week.
Maybe Mr Smith will play the payback card....unlikely though.

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post #23867 of 24815 Old 09-30-2014, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
I would think Seaton Cat owners use Audyssey or Dirac on top of the DSP built into the Cats frequently. I doubt the DSP built into the Cats is suppose to work across the board for all rooms since all rooms are different and different adjustments/compensation.
Yeah, it's an active crossover. I suspect it includes some EQ, but so do many passive crossovers.

There are some advantages to doing all EQ and crossover processing in a single pass using tools like Audiolense XO, Acourate, JBL M2s, or Legacy's big speakers, but that makes things more complicated.
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post #23868 of 24815 Old 09-30-2014, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
Ha, yeah but with our schedule I thought we'd have 2 wins in November.... I guess that could still happen!


BTW, did anyone else try WOW pod scene on their 215's for SOWK? I did it but with a HPF on at 20hz, no bad sounds for me at 2 under reference which is where my inuke starts clipping.

Make sure you go Large no subs otherwise the LFE channel will probably go to the subs only and not the mains - that's how it works on my avr.
When I was installing my system and the 215's in the new room I had WOTW in the player for like 3 days. I never noticed anything. I also threw in one of the bass demo discs I have and ran that for a day and no problems with anything. The thing I noticed was that on the bass demo disc there is a cut of the pod emerging scene and it sounded funny on the 215's, so that is when I went and got my copy and it was the same thing. It just sounded flat in the center and overpowering bass. I have played a handful of other movies and they all sound great, but WOTW just sounds horrible for some reason. Now that I am tuned a little better I will give it another go. I have had my projector disconnected for a week so hopefully I will get it back up today and rerun WOTW again and see if anything has changed.

Anybody running the 215's with movies and no subs, what are you setting your LFE crossover at? I set the AVR at 120hz. I also went into my oppo player and there is crossover in there that I forgot about and I set that at120hz also. It was set at 80hz and it sounded like it made a difference boosting it. I am not sure if that crossover is bypassed or not?
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post #23869 of 24815 Old 09-30-2014, 12:46 PM
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I also went into my oppo player and there is crossover in there that I forgot about and I set that at120hz also. It was set at 80hz and it sounded like it made a difference boosting it. I am not sure if that crossover is bypassed or not?
I'm not 100% sure, but I belive the speaker settings on the Oppo's only apply to the multichannel preouts.
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post #23870 of 24815 Old 09-30-2014, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
I just saw that Seaton is doing a two channel room at RMAF with the Catalyst 12C and miniDSP with Dirac Live. Funk Audio is in the room next door. Nathan Funk's work on these line arrays is incredible.
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
DSP on top of DSP ...

Marks got some skills and it should be interesting. Looking forward to YOUR impressions DD.
In the DDRC-22DA version we are using, the unit take in a digital signal, and performs room correction before the signal ever gets converted to analog. Dirac can also be run in a PC, but this frees from limiting the source to the PC or requiring the PC to behave as expected. It also serves as a nice DAC and allows me to use an Oppo '105 as an alternate source. If there's one thing I've learned from temporary setups, it is to have backup plans.

While not cheap nor free, Dirac does offer some very nice intelligence in how it corrects and average of multiple measurements and a very flexible response curve editor. Even if someone was to use the DDRC-22A which has Analog I/O, this is still higher resolution of than your Rane RPM88, which I didn't see any sound quality complaints about. With the digital input version, this setup is more akin to using Audyssey in a pre-pro, but Audyssey actually downconverts to 48kHz where this unit operates at 96kHz. The much lower cost per channel NanoAVR-DL operates at 48kHz. Personally I still find the correction performed more beneficial than any differences between sample rates, but 96k does push things well out of the audible range.

As others mentioned, the DSP inside a Catalyst is strictly for speaker only optimization and crossover execution. It does allow more precise control of the starting response curve I am after and other behavior, but does nothing to address the speaker-room interface which varies in every room. I'm very hopeful that we might eventually see versions of these DDRC models with 4 or more channels and/or capabilities of linking units for software calibration, as the DataSat RS20i & Theta Casablanca are the only units currently implementing it at this level. Hopefully the Emotiva pre will eventually include what is effectively in the NanoAVR-DL.
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post #23871 of 24815 Old 09-30-2014, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Yes, I just did. First I ran at reference from the front row 12' and no issues. Then, I cranked it up to +6 and sat in the back row which is approx 17' from the screen/speakers and no CD "crackle or clipping (Sheesh, these things put out a lot of bass, my ears were feeling the pressure )

Good that SOWK has Jeff coming over this week cause it must be his speakers or ?

BTW carp, your Mr. Smith led Chiefs are gonna have a tough one next week.
Did WOTW last night too! At 0.0 though... GEEEzuss! Bass is one thing. But when all that glass shatters? Friggin awesome.. Btw, no crackles here..
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post #23872 of 24815 Old 09-30-2014, 01:23 PM
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In the DDRC-22DA version we are using, the unit take in a digital signal, and performs room correction before the signal ever gets converted to analog. Dirac can also be run in a PC, but this frees from limiting the source to the PC or requiring the PC to behave as expected. It also serves as a nice DAC and allows me to use an Oppo '105 as an alternate source. If there's one thing I've learned from temporary setups, it is to have backup plans.

While not cheap nor free, Dirac does offer some very nice intelligence in how it corrects and average of multiple measurements and a very flexible response curve editor. Even if someone was to use the DDRC-22A which has Analog I/O, this is still higher resolution of than your Rane RPM88, which I didn't see any sound quality complaints about. With the digital input version, this setup is more akin to using Audyssey in a pre-pro, but Audyssey actually downconverts to 48kHz where this unit operates at 96kHz. The much lower cost per channel NanoAVR-DL operates at 48kHz. Personally I still find the correction performed more beneficial than any differences between sample rates, but 96k does push things well out of the audible range.

As others mentioned, the DSP inside a Catalyst is strictly for speaker only optimization and crossover execution. It does allow more precise control of the starting response curve I am after and other behavior, but does nothing to address the speaker-room interface which varies in every room. I'm very hopeful that we might eventually see versions of these DDRC models with 4 or more channels and/or capabilities of linking units for software calibration, as the DataSat RS20i & Theta Casablanca are the only units currently implementing it at this level. Hopefully the Emotiva pre will eventually include what is effectively in the NanoAVR-DL.
If the goal is to do everything (crossovers, room correction) in one convolution pass (not sure how important that is), it seems like that has to happen in a receiver or PC, in order to properly include surrounds and multiple subs.

Incidentally, on my PC, I can't hear any difference between running Dirac at higher sample rates. (I don't have any 96+khz content.)
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post #23873 of 24815 Old 09-30-2014, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Actually the FR is about right.. if the 212 ported version is flat, then the 212lp would be a few dB less in the Mid Bass department.. Jeff told me this himself when i was making the decision between buying hte 212 or the LP version.. i ultimately went with the LP because i always seems to prefer Sealed...

Anyways, for me, i doubt an extra 3dB would make up the mid bass i want... i don't blame the 212 at all... i think for the amount of mid bass i want, i can only achieve it through a dedicated mid bass module...
Let me start by saying that I wouldn't be unhappy if I had listened to the speaker before purchasing...but then I likely wouldn't own the 212s, at least not the sealed. So if someone is looking at speakers now I say it is so incredibly important to hear for yourselves, don't you dare rely on other peoples recommendations or what they like. The JTR 212 has an incredible following and for music, I can absolutely see it and agree. For home theater, MY OPINION is the 212 doesn't quite have the midbass that SOME PEOPLE are looking for. And when I chose the sealed, since my speakers would be in the front two corners of my room, I didn't realize that decision would have such a huge impact. I saw a speaker that was specified to go down to 70 Hz and thought I have super clean subs in the LMS-5400s and those can easily play up to 80 or 90 to allow the 212HT-LPs to handle their core frequency. And I saw a speaker with a pair of 12" speakers that I figured could put out tremendous amounts of midbass. And maybe they can, but apparently I need to give them a few thousand watts and DSP, even though so many people were saying these things are so sensitive, they can be driven with an AVR. I figured I was even better by having a 300w outboard amp.

So is what I just wrote correct...it is from my viewpoint and my knowledge level at the time. Does it apply for someone else...probably not.

I'll finish with where I started...if you are thinking of buying speakers...find a way to listen to them for yourself. I thought I was safe relying on the viewpoint of so many knowledgeable people and it didn't turn out the way I expected. That is the only right answer, listen and make the decision for yourself.
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post #23874 of 24815 Old 09-30-2014, 01:49 PM
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I'll add that I think Rhed had the right idea this year when he traveled from Hawaii to Chicago for the Apoxno show and was able to hear many different speakers so he could be sure in his speaker purchasing decision. There are several shows a year, including the upcoming Rocky Mountain Audio Festival (Oct 10-12). JTR Speakers will be there as well as Seaton and likely many others. I can't think of a better event to attend to really understand what is out there and what appeals to each individual.
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post #23875 of 24815 Old 09-30-2014, 01:50 PM
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If the goal is to do everything (crossovers, room correction) in one convolution pass (not sure how important that is), it seems like that has to happen in a receiver or PC, in order to properly include surrounds and multiple subs.

Incidentally, on my PC, I can't hear any difference between running Dirac at higher sample rates. (I don't have any 96+khz content.)
I'm still not sold on letting a room correction algorithm handle crossovers unless the speakers and software are intended as a system with pre-programmed limits and ranges of flexibility. It's rare you will ever get a large enough sampling of the room to get a good handle on off axis power response from a speaker, and it still requires knowledge of driver limits. Trinnov and Dirac are both getting very good with such capabilities and are almost there, but neither have their latest work available as a complete solution yet. At this point in time implementation would be very hands-on requiring a good bit of background knowledge. Separating out the optimization of getting the sound from a well behaved speaker to the listening area is a task that is much easier to define and execute.
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post #23876 of 24815 Old 09-30-2014, 02:51 PM
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On Facebook, JTR just announced this: "Coming soon Noesis 212TT."

Unfortunately, no details were given. We're pressuring them in hopes of details. Anyone hear about this potential "212 Tower" (my presumption)?

I'm guessing he's doing this for the guys wanting more midbass in a smaller cabinet than the 215RT.

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post #23877 of 24815 Old 09-30-2014, 03:00 PM
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On Facebook, JTR just announced this: "Coming soon Noesis 212TT."

Unfortunately, no details were given. We're pressuring them in hopes of details. Anyone hear about this potential "212 Tower" (my presumption)?

I'm guessing he's doing this for the guys wanting more midbass in a smaller cabinet than the 215RT.
It's the lower costing 212 with the 228 CD (two way). Bringing a lower costing entry point.
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post #23878 of 24815 Old 09-30-2014, 03:00 PM
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When I was installing my system and the 215's in the new room I had WOTW in the player for like 3 days. I never noticed anything. I also threw in one of the bass demo discs I have and ran that for a day and no problems with anything. The thing I noticed was that on the bass demo disc there is a cut of the pod emerging scene and it sounded funny on the 215's, so that is when I went and got my copy and it was the same thing. It just sounded flat in the center and overpowering bass. I have played a handful of other movies and they all sound great, but WOTW just sounds horrible for some reason. Now that I am tuned a little better I will give it another go. I have had my projector disconnected for a week so hopefully I will get it back up today and rerun WOTW again and see if anything has changed.

Anybody running the 215's with movies and no subs, what are you setting your LFE crossover at? I set the AVR at 120hz. I also went into my oppo player and there is crossover in there that I forgot about and I set that at120hz also. It was set at 80hz and it sounded like it made a difference boosting it. I am not sure if that crossover is bypassed or not?
I did both setting all small, XO 80 with subs. And L/R set large the rest small with subs. I really like the L/R set at large with subs for movies. Brings a huge soundstage. And more impact to the bass this way. When I do set all to small, I difference is slightly noticeable. But not much. Nor not any better. Besides when I do it this way, I think I have a phase issue since my graph is showing a 3 db dip in the 65- 75 region. I didn't have chance to play with the distance settings on the subs yet to see if this will try to correct it. I'm getting kind of anal now. So I'm gonna try tweak things more this this weekend. Any simple way to work with phase?

Last edited by rhed; 09-30-2014 at 03:12 PM.
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post #23879 of 24815 Old 09-30-2014, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Actually the FR is about right.. if the 212 ported version is flat, then the 212lp would be a few dB less in the Mid Bass department.. Jeff told me this himself when i was making the decision between buying hte 212 or the LP version.. i ultimately went with the LP because i always seems to prefer Sealed...

Anyways, for me, i doubt an extra 3dB would make up the mid bass i want... i don't blame the 212 at all... i think for the amount of mid bass i want, i can only achieve it through a dedicated mid bass module...
maybe I read the graph wrong, but when I look at the 70hz response it looks like a lot more than 3dB down from the avg SPL across the rest of the range above 100hz.
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Pre-Pro: Emotiva XMC-1, DSP: Mini DSP 2x4 balanced
Amplifier: Sunfire TGA7400, Lab Gruppen FP10000Q
Speakers: JTR Noesis 212HT (LCR), JTR Slant 8's (surrounds), 3 Orbit Shifter LFU's
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post #23880 of 24815 Old 09-30-2014, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by 7channelfreak View Post
It's the lower costing 212 with the 228 CD (two way). Bringing a lower costing entry point.
Really? Okay... Anyone have a price or idea of what it might be?

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