Official JTR speaker thread - Page 805 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #24121 of 31063 Old 10-04-2014, 09:22 AM
Señor Member
 
RMK!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 95608
Posts: 6,842
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1010 Post(s)
Liked: 828
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Specs can be helpful, but they are not necessarily comparable from manufacturer to manufacturer. The M2 maximum specs are determined by direct measurement and are set based on using them continuously at those output levels. So they are not absolute maximum output numbers, but continuous use maximum output numbers that maintain the low distortion and clarity expected of a reference monitor in a studio mixing environment at those SPL levels.

Big difference from JTR maximum output numbers that are not measured but calculated from driver specification sheet numbers.

I can tell you the M2's have awesome output and don't lose their composure at any volume that I can tolerate.

I never had the JTR 212's measure greater than 123 dB peak in my room at my listening position and that was with me standing at the door to the rear of my room because I couldn't be in the room without fear for my hearing. I could tell their character was changing at those volumes, so I am not so sure that they could reach their maximum calculated volumes while maintaining clean output and highly doubt that Jeff would recommend continuous use at those maximum output numbers.

Applying the same standards to both speakers, I think they would be much closer than the specs suggest.
I'm guessing the changing character you noted was due as much to the room interaction (e.g. overloading) as any actual degradation in sound quality. JTR 212 HT's can play well beyond the levels most rooms can handle. Clearly, the M2 was designed as a studio monitor and max output was a minor design consideration. They are really a different design for a different purpose. You are re-purposing them to a degree and that is very cool as that is how pro-audio made it's way into the HT world. I am looking forward to my M2 demos on the 27th and hearing for myself what you have heard. It appears the demo rooms will be very different environments and that will also be interesting.

Thanks for bringing something new to the HT/music table. It gets tiresome discussing the same old products/issues.

HToM Extraordinary Evolution

Opinions are not facts.
RMK! is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #24122 of 31063 Old 10-04-2014, 09:23 AM
AVS Special Member
 
lbrown105's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 1,274
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 394 Post(s)
Liked: 220
with the gain on the LG @+35 (and ear plugs in place) I have seen my meter hit 132dB at about 1M with one speaker on and subs off. Ultimately the should go a few higher.

Pre-Pro: Emotiva XMC-1, DSP: Mini DSP 2x4 balanced
Amplifier: Sunfire TGA7400, Lab Gruppen FP10000Q
Speakers: JTR Noesis 212HT (LCR), JTR Slant 8's (surrounds), 3 Orbit Shifter LFU's
Sources: PS3, HTPC, Dish Network
Projector: Epson 8350
Screen: Seymour XD AT 138" diagonal 16:9
lbrown105 is offline  
post #24123 of 31063 Old 10-04-2014, 09:25 AM
AVS Special Member
 
lbrown105's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 1,274
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 394 Post(s)
Liked: 220
^^ gunshot scene

Pre-Pro: Emotiva XMC-1, DSP: Mini DSP 2x4 balanced
Amplifier: Sunfire TGA7400, Lab Gruppen FP10000Q
Speakers: JTR Noesis 212HT (LCR), JTR Slant 8's (surrounds), 3 Orbit Shifter LFU's
Sources: PS3, HTPC, Dish Network
Projector: Epson 8350
Screen: Seymour XD AT 138" diagonal 16:9
lbrown105 is offline  
post #24124 of 31063 Old 10-04-2014, 09:30 AM
Deep Sea Sound
 
dgage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 2,639
Mentioned: 56 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1116 Post(s)
Liked: 698
Lbrown105 - First, I hope you know that we are having a chill discussion and wish we were talking in a living room enjoying some tunes.


If you told me JBL spent over a million dollars on R&D and produced a unit capable of 130+db output down to 20Hz with a single ported 15"...I'd say impressive. I wouldn't say that it is impossible for such a company like that to develop such a speaker.


And my ignorance comment is based on the fact that you didn't know the actual specs of the M2 any more than I did and yet you said they couldn't possibly meet your requirements. But you doubt the physics of a 15" capable of such output and I do not.


But that is just my viewpoint and I think I've argued too much as it is. I apologize. Back to the normal JTR thread...whatever that is.
lbrown105 likes this.
dgage is offline  
post #24125 of 31063 Old 10-04-2014, 09:39 AM
Member
 
JF56's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: 90275
Posts: 28
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Wink Originally posted by SOWK

Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
A lot of users are recommending dual orbital shifters over the S2's. Curious as to why?

Once you can hit 120dB from 20hz to 120hz why would the orbital shifters be better?

I'm trying for 120dB from 5hz to 120hz...


I know I am on a concrete slab, but will eventually go for crowsons as well in the near future.

Might want to check out this thread, Jeff weights in a couple times


www.avsforum.com/.../1399630-captivator-s2-vs-orbit-shifter.html
JF56 is offline  
post #24126 of 31063 Old 10-04-2014, 09:39 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Reefdvr27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Cape May, NJ (South Jersey)
Posts: 3,915
Mentioned: 43 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1283 Post(s)
Liked: 801
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
That is great advice Carp, because they don't sound similar. Not only that, their dispersion characteristics have a huge impact on the perception of that sound in the room.

I'm so glad I had the SH50's and SM60F's in my room at the same time because it was enlightening to see how the tightening of the dispersion pattern going from the 60's to the 50's impacted the sound at the listening positions. Prior to this I was totally enamored with the Danley synergy horn approach, but not so much after. IMO, the Danley design is perfect for their intended pro application in larger spaces/arrayability, but not so much in the small room/home application.

It is entirely the opposite approach taken by JBL with the M2 (and their entire LSR (Linear Spacial Reference)) line. Whereas the Danley design focuses on minimizing the interaction with the room and the room power response, the JBL embraces the room power response and uses it.

Having heard both in my room I'm a total convert to the JBL approach.
What did you like better, the SH50 or SM60?
Reefdvr27 is offline  
post #24127 of 31063 Old 10-04-2014, 09:55 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 5,279
Mentioned: 66 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1417 Post(s)
Liked: 770
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
I'm guessing the changing character you noted was due as much to the room interaction (e.g. overloading) as any actual degradation in sound quality. JTR 212 HT's can play well beyond the levels most rooms can handle. Clearly, the M2 was designed as a studio monitor and max output was a minor design consideration. They are really a different design for a different purpose. You are re-purposing them to a degree and that is very cool as that is how pro-audio made it's way into the HT world. I am looking forward to my M2 demos on the 27th and hearing for myself what you have heard. It appears the demo rooms will be very different environments and that will also be interesting.

Thanks for bringing something new to the HT/music table. It gets tiresome discussing the same old products/issues.
Yea, you are probably right about the room. Particularly since we're talking an untreated room at the time. But still, my point was that the specs for the M2's are derived differently and you cant just compare spec sheet numbers. I don't really know what the actual maximum output differences are between the M2 and the 212's, but going by what I hear on my room I know that the M2's will cleanly fill a larger room than mine with clean ear ringing SPL.

I've only measured at my listening position and never bothered going louder since if I need ear plugs to measure than what is the point!?? Lol.

Any speaker I own has to play louder - cleanly - than my ears can tolerate. That's what I mean by no compromise or limits. I don't actually literally mean "no limits" . As soon as I need ear plugs I no longer need an SPL meter to tell me the speakers meet my needs .

I'm looking forward to read your impressions of the M2. The M2 changed a lot about my views of design approaches. It's a fusion design that will surprise a lot of people who think they've heard it all.
Gooddoc is online now  
post #24128 of 31063 Old 10-04-2014, 09:59 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 5,279
Mentioned: 66 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1417 Post(s)
Liked: 770
Quote:
Originally Posted by NWCgrad View Post
I would be willing to bet that JBL's R&D budget is far more than 100 times the total JTR budget.
Corrected.

Which is a testament to Jeff's talents.
NWCgrad likes this.
Gooddoc is online now  
post #24129 of 31063 Old 10-04-2014, 10:01 AM
Deep Sea Sound
 
dgage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 2,639
Mentioned: 56 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1116 Post(s)
Liked: 698
Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post
with the gain on the LG @+35 (and ear plugs in place) I have seen my meter hit 132dB at about 1M with one speaker on and subs off. Ultimately the should go a few higher.
I'm scared to ask but if I ever get up to Wisconsin, can I request an aural assualt? Sounds like your system is something special to behold. I'll bring ear plugs and muffs!
dgage is offline  
post #24130 of 31063 Old 10-04-2014, 10:06 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 5,279
Mentioned: 66 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1417 Post(s)
Liked: 770
Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post
with the gain on the LG @+35 (and ear plugs in place) I have seen my meter hit 132dB at about 1M with one speaker on and subs off. Ultimately the should go a few higher.
And you "need" that output . I've got no problem with that, to each his own. I took my measurements from the LP. But at the point I can't be in the room is the point it's cool to have more output, but for me, not a "need". And I'm still not convinced running the 212's at those volumes 10 hours per day 365 is advisable.
Gooddoc is online now  
post #24131 of 31063 Old 10-04-2014, 10:13 AM
Advanced Member
 
PeterK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: The very wet, humid, muggy South !!
Posts: 569
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked: 54
What amazes me is that Jeff has been able to introduce numerous new speakers over a relatively short period of time. This from a one man operation for design and testing. How he is able to do the proper design work, crossover testing and everything seems almost impossible and yet his newer speakers always seem to get such rave reviews from owners and group testers here.

Not trying to criticize at all but Mark Seaton whom I have tremendous respect for is far far slower to market with his new speakers. The redesigned new surround duty Sparks have been "coming" for almost 2 years now I believe and leave a hole in his offerings. I know he puts tremendous effort into producing the highest quality designs possible with his limited resources and it shows based upon owner reviews. Yes his designs being active powered are more complex I would think. Of course making speakers like the Cats that have been around for quite a while now and are still competitive with most anything out there shows the benefits of his efforts.

Not sure how many new speaker designs Jeff has been able to introduce during the life of the Cats but it is several.

I feel so lucky to have Mark and Jeff out there offering fantastic product. Just want to push Mark to give us more "toys" soon.

This from a Slant 8, 228HT, Submersive owner.
dgage likes this.
PeterK is offline  
post #24132 of 31063 Old 10-04-2014, 10:27 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Reefdvr27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Cape May, NJ (South Jersey)
Posts: 3,915
Mentioned: 43 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1283 Post(s)
Liked: 801
Mark, did you feel that earthquake up your way? About 15 minutes ago?
Reefdvr27 is offline  
post #24133 of 31063 Old 10-04-2014, 10:30 AM
AVS Special Member
 
lbrown105's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 1,274
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 394 Post(s)
Liked: 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
I'm scared to ask but if I ever get up to Wisconsin, can I request an aural assualt? Sounds like your system is something special to behold. I'll bring ear plugs and muffs!
of course you would be invited. In fact I am contemplating something of a GTG late fall still if I ever get the Dirac for the XMC-1 which is eminent according to Emotiva (I know its always eminent with them). This is all just good discussion. Having a bunch of members from this thread would be awesome, just travel can be a lot and I know people like to compare a lot of different stuff which I am not really wanting to do, but you never know.


If I do a GTG it will be posted here for sure. And ear plugs are optional but other than an extremely quick demo I don't plan on trying to drive people out of the room.
dgage likes this.

Pre-Pro: Emotiva XMC-1, DSP: Mini DSP 2x4 balanced
Amplifier: Sunfire TGA7400, Lab Gruppen FP10000Q
Speakers: JTR Noesis 212HT (LCR), JTR Slant 8's (surrounds), 3 Orbit Shifter LFU's
Sources: PS3, HTPC, Dish Network
Projector: Epson 8350
Screen: Seymour XD AT 138" diagonal 16:9
lbrown105 is offline  
post #24134 of 31063 Old 10-04-2014, 10:35 AM
AVS Special Member
 
lbrown105's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 1,274
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 394 Post(s)
Liked: 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
And you "need" that output . I've got no problem with that, to each his own. I took my measurements from the LP. But at the point I can't be in the room is the point it's cool to have more output, but for me, not a "need". And I'm still not convinced running the 212's at those volumes 10 hours per day 365 is advisable.

too funny Doc, of course those levels are silly but also the whole peak thing and some of Tom Danley's writings are relevant to an extent which I am sure the M2's handle fine. I think the issue I might run into being a bass head with thhe M2's is those really high level short duration demos with a +15dB house curve in place.


. I can't wait for people to hear your M2's, and I wish I was one of them. I am quite confident they will be the most coherent, involving two channel experience most have ever heard.

Pre-Pro: Emotiva XMC-1, DSP: Mini DSP 2x4 balanced
Amplifier: Sunfire TGA7400, Lab Gruppen FP10000Q
Speakers: JTR Noesis 212HT (LCR), JTR Slant 8's (surrounds), 3 Orbit Shifter LFU's
Sources: PS3, HTPC, Dish Network
Projector: Epson 8350
Screen: Seymour XD AT 138" diagonal 16:9
lbrown105 is offline  
post #24135 of 31063 Old 10-04-2014, 10:42 AM
Señor Member
 
RMK!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 95608
Posts: 6,842
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1010 Post(s)
Liked: 828
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Yea, you are probably right about the room. Particularly since we're talking an untreated room at the time. But still, my point was that the specs for the M2's are derived differently and you cant just compare spec sheet numbers. I don't really know what the actual maximum output differences are between the M2 and the 212's, but going by what I hear on my room I know that the M2's will cleanly fill a larger room than mine with clean ear ringing SPL.

I've only measured at my listening position and never bothered going louder since if I need ear plugs to measure than what is the point!?? Lol.

Any speaker I own has to play louder - cleanly - than my ears can tolerate. That's what I mean by no compromise or limits. I don't actually literally mean "no limits" . As soon as I need ear plugs I no longer need an SPL meter to tell me the speakers meet my needs .

I'm looking forward to read your impressions of the M2. The M2 changed a lot about my views of design approaches. It's a fusion design that will surprise a lot of people who think they've heard it all.
My room is heavily treated and it was/is easy to make more sound than the room can handle but to do that, the spl numbers are crazy(over 120db at the LP) . For a sane person, anything over 120db is dangerously loud so max output isn't an issue unless like some here, you want front row center metal rock concert levels. Personally, I like the fact that I can go there more that the actual experience although the Ghosts n Stuff Remix on Art of Flight is epic at =/>+10db ref . But AoF and others are an A/V experience and the V part is just as important for total immersion. That is often missed here.

What intrigues me about your M2's isn't their SPL capabilities but their resolution and coherence at normal to moderately loud levels. The testimonials by "experts" is impressive and combined with your reports, I'm interested in a demo. I have an open mind so who knows? The downside for me is that the 215RT's have spoiled me in that I really like the sound of a true full range speaker. The prospect of adding and integrating subs again seems regressive.
asoofi1 likes this.

HToM Extraordinary Evolution

Opinions are not facts.

Last edited by RMK!; 10-04-2014 at 11:10 AM.
RMK! is offline  
post #24136 of 31063 Old 10-04-2014, 11:02 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 5,279
Mentioned: 66 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1417 Post(s)
Liked: 770
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
What did you like better, the SH50 or SM60?
I think the SH50 is definitely the better speaker. More clarity and better SQ IMO and more effortless headroom. But the limited dispersion pattern is a negative IMO for a small room. Going from the 60deg to the 50deg was not a positive. They had a very unique sonic signature and I can see there appeal. But they didn't grab me like I needed them to. It's the reason I finally decided to go and demo the M2's, even though I doubted I would spend that kind of money. But comparing the two different designs the JBL is clearly the superior design approach for residential sized rooms as far as I'm concerned.

And if you look at the pro space, where Danley lives, it's clear that their sales are primarily to large space applications, and I've never seen or read of them being utilized in professional critical listening environments.

Bottom line though is that the SH50 really is a great speaker, but just designed to address a set of problems that don't exist in small, residential size rooms. I've focused on the negatives of the design, but there are also positive attributes unique to the synergy design that really are special and lend an appeal to it, such as the feel of "attack" and mid bass impact that the design does better than any I've heard. And that alone is a pretty addictive quality. I just feel the negatives out way the positives overall in residential room sized spaces.

Last edited by Gooddoc; 10-04-2014 at 11:19 AM.
Gooddoc is online now  
post #24137 of 31063 Old 10-04-2014, 11:17 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 5,279
Mentioned: 66 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1417 Post(s)
Liked: 770
Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post
too funny Doc, of course those levels are silly but also the whole peak thing and some of Tom Danley's writings are relevant to an extent which I am sure the M2's handle fine. I think the issue I might run into being a bass head with thhe M2's is those really high level short duration demos with a +15dB house curve in place.


. I can't wait for people to hear your M2's, and I wish I was one of them. I am quite confident they will be the most coherent, involving two channel experience most have ever heard.
Yea, I don't have any EQ on the M2's and have no idea how much output the woofer has down low. I have no doubt it's less than the 215's . I have been running the M2's without subs at all since I got them and they're definitely very capable drivers but not sure what there limits are exactly. I do think they will likely tolerate a pretty good house curve based on what I've heard so far at high levels. I do have a measurement of them in my room but haven't posted it because I forgot to adjust the scale and I personally hate looking at graphs scaled at 10 dB increments, but I'll attach it to this post in a few minutes when I get to my computer. But you'll see they have a pretty large gain down low naturally in my room.

Graph 1/6 resolution, no EQ
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	M2 Right.jpg
Views:	681
Size:	77.0 KB
ID:	294634  

Last edited by Gooddoc; 10-04-2014 at 12:10 PM.
Gooddoc is online now  
post #24138 of 31063 Old 10-04-2014, 11:47 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 5,279
Mentioned: 66 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1417 Post(s)
Liked: 770
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
My room is heavily treated and it was/is easy to make more sound than the room can handle but to do that, the spl numbers are crazy(over 120db at the LP) . For a sane person, anything over 120db is dangerously loud so max output isn't an issue unless like some here, you want front row center metal rock concert levels. Personally, I like the fact that I can go there more that the actual experience although the Ghosts n Stuff Remix on Art of Flight is epic at =/>+10db ref . But AoF and others are an A/V experience and the V part is just as important for total immersion. That is often missed here.

What intrigues me about your M2's isn't their SPL capabilities but their resolution and coherence at normal to moderately loud levels. The testimonials by "experts" is impressive and combined with your reports, I'm interested in a demo. I have an open mind so who knows? The downside for me is that the 215RT's have spoiled me in that I really like the sound of a true full range speaker. The prospect of adding and integrating subs again seems regressive.
Ha! I can see your point re:subs. I guess we'll see where your priorities lie in a few weeks .

I'm definitely looking forward to your impressions of their output compared to the 215's. To be honest, based on what I've experienced so far, I think three M2's up front would produce enough bass to satisfy me even for HT if I had to compromise. Three 15" ported drivers with a 2000 watt amp per driver is far more output than most run with dedicated subs . And no, I'm not talking about the guys in this thread , I'm talking in the broader audio community. I used to run a single sealed 15" servo sub and was happy at the time, but I admit I've moved on from there and will be keeping my S2's .

But as I've mentioned to you before, do you think you would have sold your Revels if you could have cranked the volume and have them open up like JTR's?

Because I'm like you, it doesn't matter how good a speaker sounds if I can't crank it. The SPL criteria has to pass muster before I'll even move on to SQ.
RMK! likes this.

Last edited by Gooddoc; 10-04-2014 at 11:51 AM.
Gooddoc is online now  
post #24139 of 31063 Old 10-04-2014, 12:00 PM
Señor Member
 
RMK!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 95608
Posts: 6,842
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1010 Post(s)
Liked: 828
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Ha! I can see your point re:subs. I guess we'll see where your priorities lie in a few weeks .

I'm definitely looking forward to your impressions of their output compared to the 215's. To be honest, based on what I've experienced so far, I think three M2's up front would produce enough bass to satisfy me even for HT if I had to compromise. Three 15" ported drivers with a 2000 watt amp per driver is far more output than most run with dedicated subs . And no, I'm not talking about the guys in this thread , I'm talking in the broader audio community. I used to run a single sealed 15" servo sub and was happy at the time, but I admit I've moved on from there and will be keeping my S2's .

But as I've mentioned to you before, do you think you would have sold your Revels if you could have cranked the volume and have them open up like JTR's?
Good question and probably not. The Revels had a special quality for certain music. I have been convinced that those two things are irreconcilable. The 215RT's are very close to a perfect speaker for me with that full range thing being the biggest factor.

Your M2's may raise the bar and if the delta is significant ... I'm screwed.
Gooddoc likes this.

HToM Extraordinary Evolution

Opinions are not facts.
RMK! is offline  
post #24140 of 31063 Old 10-04-2014, 12:13 PM
AVS Special Member
 
rhed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,738
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 445 Post(s)
Liked: 314
Gooddoc.. So your getting another M2 for cc?
rhed is online now  
post #24141 of 31063 Old 10-04-2014, 12:16 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 5,279
Mentioned: 66 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1417 Post(s)
Liked: 770
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Good question and probably not. The Revels had a special quality for certain music. I have been convinced that those two things are irreconcilable. The 215RT's are very close to a perfect speaker for me with that full range thing being the biggest factor.

Your M2's may raise the bar and if the delta is significant ... I'm screwed.
Hehe. If that's what you're thinking, you're screwed.

BTW, I added that FR to my post above.
Gooddoc is online now  
post #24142 of 31063 Old 10-04-2014, 12:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
NWCgrad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Frederick, MD
Posts: 2,112
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 649 Post(s)
Liked: 536
Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post
of course you would be invited. In fact I am contemplating something of a GTG late fall still if I ever get the Dirac for the XMC-1 which is eminent according to Emotiva (I know its always eminent with them). This is all just good discussion. Having a bunch of members from this thread would be awesome, just travel can be a lot and I know people like to compare a lot of different stuff which I am not really wanting to do, but you never know.


If I do a GTG it will be posted here for sure. And ear plugs are optional but other than an extremely quick demo I don't plan on trying to drive people out of the room.
I just that the XMC-1 is getting REW support very soon. With it's built in PEQ capacity and ease of usb stick setting REW filters into the unit have me actually thinking about the unit. Makes Diriac less important to ME (but probably not to others).

___________________________________________
NWCgrad's Mostly DIY Basement HT - http://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-gen...sement-ht.html
NWCgrad's 10” coaxial collaborative design - http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...ve-design.html
NWCgrad is offline  
post #24143 of 31063 Old 10-04-2014, 12:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
audiovideoholic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Murray KY
Posts: 2,677
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 209 Post(s)
Liked: 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Yea, I don't have any EQ on the M2's and have no idea how much output the woofer has down low. I have no doubt it's less than the 215's . I have been running the M2's without subs at all since I got them and they're definitely very capable drivers but not sure what there limits are exactly. I do think they will likely tolerate a pretty good house curve based on what I've heard so far at high levels. I do have a measurement of them in my room but haven't posted it because I forgot to adjust the scale and I personally hate looking at graphs scaled at 10 dB increments, but I'll attach it to this post in a few minutes when I get to my computer. But you'll see they have a pretty large gain down low naturally in my room.

Graph 1/6 resolution, no EQ
That looks great Doc but what do you think is going on up near 20khz. Does the room act the opposite for high frequencies where the lows show room gain? Is there something going on or is it possible that is just a dip that will pick back up past the graphs parameters? I have no clue and just trying to understand what a 40khz speaker looks like up high. I'm quite certain your pets if have any probably can't even hear that small dip so although a moot point for all listening scenarios except a select few it is interesting to understand what is going on there.
audiovideoholic is offline  
post #24144 of 31063 Old 10-04-2014, 12:31 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 5,279
Mentioned: 66 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1417 Post(s)
Liked: 770
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post
That looks great Doc but what do you think is going on up near 20khz. Does the room act the opposite for high frequencies where the lows show room gain? Is there something going on or is it possible that is just a dip that will pick back up past the graphs parameters? I have no clue and just trying to understand what a 40khz speaker looks like up high. I'm quite certain your pets if have any probably can't even hear that small dip so although a moot point for all listening scenarios except a select few it is interesting to understand what is going on there.
Every speaker I've ever had in my room has a sloping FR at the higher frequencies at the listening position. The M2's have the least by far, including the 212's. That is actually a perfect FR slope up high IMO and is, I believe, an in-room design goal. If it were flat at the listening position it would require EQ to correct it and the on axis FR would not match the FR as one moves off axis. The massive sweetspot and timbre consistency in the listening window is likely unmatched by any speaker.

You can stand up, sit down, walk around and the consistency of the sound is remarkable. You can even dance around the room air guitaring and never feel like you've moved out of the sweetspot. Don't ask how I know that.

Last edited by Gooddoc; 10-04-2014 at 12:34 PM.
Gooddoc is online now  
post #24145 of 31063 Old 10-04-2014, 12:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
audiovideoholic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Murray KY
Posts: 2,677
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 209 Post(s)
Liked: 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Every speaker I've ever had in my room has a sloping FR at the higher frequencies at the listening position. The M2's have the least by far, including the 212's. That is actually a perfect FR slope up high IMO and is, I believe, an in-room design goal. If it were flat at the listening position it would require EQ to correct it and the on axis FR would not match the FR as one moves off axis. The massive sweetspot and timbre consistency in the listening window is likely unmatched by any speaker.

You can stand up, sit down, walk around and the consistency of the sound is remarkable. You can even dance around the room air guitaring and never feel like you've moved out of the sweetspot. Don't ask how I know that.

Great explanation. I knew there was something to it but had no idea what. Yea it's much better looking than any of my measurements by far as well.

How are they with the off axis walking around now that you have them in the best spot "so far"? I know that's what you thought was one of their biggest achievements before hearing them. I know you're amazed by it from above but is it exactly as accepting the specs or subtle variances?
audiovideoholic is offline  
post #24146 of 31063 Old 10-04-2014, 12:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 5,279
Mentioned: 66 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1417 Post(s)
Liked: 770
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

You can stand up, sit down, walk around and the consistency of the sound is remarkable. You can even dance around the room air guitaring and never feel like you've moved out of the sweetspot. Don't ask how I know that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post
Great explanation. I knew there was something to it but had no idea what. Yea it's much better looking than any of my measurements by far as well.

How are they with the off axis walking around now that you have them in the best spot "so far"? I know that's what you thought was one of their biggest achievements before hearing them. I know you're amazed by it from above but is it exactly as accepting the specs or subtle variances?
Subtle variances due to volume, but unless you concentrate for it, it doesn't jump out at you. And once you settle on a spot for a few seconds you don't feel like you're missing anything anymore and it's possible to critically listen. No other speaker I've heard could pull that off. So if not in the center seat the experience is still exceptional. If you get up and just walk around it sounds uniformly great seemingly everywhere between the speakers. And that's with the speakers aimed at the outer seats, extreme toe-in not required. Although I should try that just for fun, it's just that the recommended aiming is as I have them.
Gooddoc is online now  
post #24147 of 31063 Old 10-04-2014, 12:56 PM
AVS Special Member
 
rhed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,738
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 445 Post(s)
Liked: 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Yea, I don't have any EQ on the M2's and have no idea how much output the woofer has down low. I have no doubt it's less than the 215's . I have been running the M2's without subs at all since I got them and they're definitely very capable drivers but not sure what there limits are exactly. I do think they will likely tolerate a pretty good house curve based on what I've heard so far at high levels. I do have a measurement of them in my room but haven't posted it because I forgot to adjust the scale and I personally hate looking at graphs scaled at 10 dB increments, but I'll attach it to this post in a few minutes when I get to my computer. But you'll see they have a pretty large gain down low naturally in my room.

Graph 1/6 resolution, no EQ
That's a nice raw measurement for the M2's. Looks like the M2 and 215 both have good response down low without EQ. Well, depending on rooms.

Here's a raw measurement I did a week ago. L/R 215's only...

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=283489

And here's the 215's with the 4 S2's engaged with some EQing...

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=283497

Sorry I don't know how to paste the links well with the iPad.. Lol

Last edited by rhed; 10-04-2014 at 01:00 PM.
rhed is online now  
post #24148 of 31063 Old 10-04-2014, 01:00 PM
Senior Member
 
rangers's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 244
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterK View Post
What amazes me is that Jeff has been able to introduce numerous new speakers over a relatively short period of time. This from a one man operation for design and testing. How he is able to do the proper design work, crossover testing and everything seems almost impossible and yet his newer speakers always seem to get such rave reviews from owners and group testers here.

Not trying to criticize at all but Mark Seaton whom I have tremendous respect for is far far slower to market with his new speakers. The redesigned new surround duty Sparks have been "coming" for almost 2 years now I believe and leave a hole in his offerings. I know he puts tremendous effort into producing the highest quality designs possible with his limited resources and it shows based upon owner reviews. Yes his designs being active powered are more complex I would think. Of course making speakers like the Cats that have been around for quite a while now and are still competitive with most anything out there shows the benefits of his efforts.

Not sure how many new speaker designs Jeff has been able to introduce during the life of the Cats but it is several.

I feel so lucky to have Mark and Jeff out there offering fantastic product. Just want to push Mark to give us more "toys" soon.

This from a Slant 8, 228HT, Submersive owner.
I just emailed Mark about new products, can't wait to read his reply. With all of these 18' and larger sub drivers these days I am curious to see
if he has plans for them. The recent ported Terraform was a limited run and sold quickly, I believe.

It would also be nice if both websites were better. It would be great to peruse their products, select one in a certain finish and click "Buy Now".

In the meantime I will keep reading this forum and looking forward to all of the great products Jeff and Mark keep coming up with.

JTR Noesis 228 (LCR)
Polk Audio LSiM 703 (Surrounds)
Seaton SubMersive HP Plus and Minus (Subs)
Denon 3312 (Receiver)
Sherbourn PA 7-350 (Amp)
Oppo BDP-103 (BluRay Player)
Sharp 80" 3D
rangers is offline  
post #24149 of 31063 Old 10-04-2014, 01:06 PM
AVS Special Member
 
audiovideoholic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Murray KY
Posts: 2,677
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 209 Post(s)
Liked: 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Subtle variances due to volume, but unless you concentrate for it, it doesn't jump out at you. And once you settle on a spot for a few seconds you don't feel like you're missing anything anymore and it's possible to critically listen. No other speaker I've heard could pull that off. So if not in the center seat the experience is still exceptional. If you get up and just walk around it sounds uniformly great seemingly everywhere between the speakers. And that's with the speakers aimed at the outer seats, extreme toe-in not required. Although I should try that just for fun, it's just that the recommended aiming is as I have them.
That's awesome!!! Well I tried to bold the part about critically listening.
audiovideoholic is offline  
post #24150 of 31063 Old 10-04-2014, 01:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 5,279
Mentioned: 66 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1417 Post(s)
Liked: 770
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhed View Post
That's a nice raw measurement for the M2's. Looks like the M2 and 215 both have good response down low without EQ. Well, depending on rooms.

Here's a raw measurement I did a week ago. L/R 215's only...


And here's the 215's with the 4 S2's engaged with some EQing...


Sorry I don't know how to paste the links well with the iPad.. Lol
Fixed it for you

Both of these are 1/6 smoothed

215

M2
Gooddoc is online now  
Reply Speakers

Tags
215RT , 228ht , captivator , Jtr , Jtr Noesis 212ht 212ht Lp
Gear in this thread - 215RT by PriceGrabber.com



Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off