Official JTR speaker thread - Page 805 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 10-04-2014, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by rhed View Post
Hmm, I don't know how low digits numbers do with concrete. But if your after tactile feel too. Then you might wanna add transducers. Other then that, after countless threads here in AVS, seems ported on concrete maybe what you would want. Definately OS.. I think Popalock has he's sealed 16 18's on concrete. Some here got a demo of he's room. Maybe they can chime on here and tell us what they think of the single digits on concrete slab. Archaea? Carp?
Popalock's were a lot of fun, even if on concrete. The real fun was above 17hz. There were some fun party tricks below 17hz.

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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
Ok... then option 3

5 x 212HT and 2 X S2's and Crowson transducers?
I'm on concrete with two OS...and I don't need transducers nor can even fathom the thought of wanting them. In fact, none of my guests are willing to sit thru an entire movie at reference. Except other ht fans. S2 is the OS cousin, so I can't imagine it would be too different. There are individual preferences of course for different folks, so add on later if you think subs don't thrill you enough after you break them in.

212 as surrounds is a waste, but if you've got money to burn, go for it. Otherwise S8 all around, and on ceiling for atmos, is the logical choice and money well spent...or even the 228 if substantial size presence is playing into the decor gratification.

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Old 10-04-2014, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post
Popalock's were a lot of fun, even if on concrete. The real fun was above 17hz. There were some fun party tricks below 17hz.



I'm on concrete with two OS...and I don't need transducers nor can even fathom the thought of wanting them. In fact, none of my guests are willing to sit thru an entire movie at reference. Except other ht fans. S2 is the OS cousin, so I can't imagine it would be too different. There are individual preferences of course for different folks, so add on later if you think subs don't thrill you enough after you break them in.

212 as surrounds is a waste, but if you've got money to burn, go for it. Otherwise S8 all around, and on ceiling for ceiling, is the logical choice and money well spent...or even the 228 if substantial size presence is playing into the decor gratification.
+2.. The slanted 8's still amazes me. So little but sound so big. Lol. SWOK.. Why don't you just keep your 215's and get 4 more for surrounds. And add 2 S8's later for ATMOS.. Wait, that will still not get you to 5hz. Ok, scratch that. Still a crazy setup though.. Haha

Last edited by rhed; 10-04-2014 at 11:30 PM.
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Old 10-04-2014, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by rhed View Post
This was mentioned before.. He's after 5 hz. Not Spl.. In post #24097 , he said he knows 3 OS would top 4 S2's at 140dbs. But he said he don't need 140 dbs. He's after 5 hz @ 120 dbs. We need to help him get what he wants. Or we'll steer him in the wrong direction. Then he'll be a unhappy bro! You know? Look what happened to Dgage.. Lol.. j/k brotha..
lol

The only way is up
I'm such a party pooper on the skid mark chasers
I need to stop...it's really late and I'm a bit delirious.

On a serious note, anyone know how low would four OS potentially hit?
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Old 10-04-2014, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post
lol

The only way is up
I'm such a party pooper on the skid mark chasers
I need to stop...it's really late and I'm a bit delirious.

On a serious note, anyone know how low would four OS potentially hit?
They act as sealed below horn load. So, as low as 4 high excursion 18's will go...
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Old 10-04-2014, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post
lol

The only way is up
I'm such a party pooper on the skid mark chasers
I need to stop...it's really late and I'm a bit delirious.

On a serious note, anyone know how low would four OS potentially hit?
I'll bet if corner loaded, single digits.. I do understand why SWOK and others including me chase after single digits. The ability to produce it with authority when opportunity comes. It is very fun. To date, for me, LS drop zone scene. Which last more 20 seconds in the 5-6 hz range. Longer then BHD. Play that scene at reference when anyone has the chance. I get a kick of it when everything vibrates. And some of your BD collection just falls off the BD shelf..lol. It's like this low way like thump or something that you just feel in your stomach.. I can't explain it. Theres also reports of a long bass sweep of some kind in EOT. Starting at 1 hz. Warning has been posted about this scene. I can't wait for my copy..
One thing I've learn though, even if you had a system that can produce single digits at reference. Make sure your amps is on there own 20 amp circuits atleast .. They take a lot of horse power to produce it. A few months ago, I found why I use to trip the breaker of 2 of my S2's all the time playing the Irene scene. It's was only logic that one circuit was tripping. So obviously they was on the same cuircut. Got my electrician to run another though. Don't know how he did it. But now they run so much better that way on its own 20 amp circuit. I feel the bass got more precise and cleaner at reference without tripping. Even with a 5db hc. Just more planning for achieving single digits. Btw, looking at the cones dance at scenes like LS scares the sh!t out of me. Unbelievably, the S2's is a solid performer for a turn key 5hz playa!!

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Old 10-04-2014, 11:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post
They act as sealed below horn load. So, as low as 4 high excursion 18's will go...
I figured, but any guesses on what number...possibly 5hz at 120db?
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Old 10-05-2014, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post
I figured, but any guesses on what number...possibly 5hz at 120db?
The OS??? No sir. Four of them would not even come close to 120db @ 5Hz...
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Old 10-05-2014, 12:52 AM
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You guys are funny as hell...

Get 4 OS's... WTF...

How much spl does one need above 20hz if I lock my pre-amp at reference... Lol

I will never be part of the... I want more then 120dB spl club...

And I only say 120dB because I want a little head room over reference.

In reality I only need 115dB at my seating. And 120dB if I run the bass hot.
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Old 10-05-2014, 12:56 AM
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Plus any addional 212HT's would be used as wides and not surrounds.

Wides may not make all the difference now, but once or if atmos gets big it will be a nice to have an all matching set.

I'm actually afraid 4 S2's might be to much for the room. Ha. And here you are telling me to get 4 OS's...
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Old 10-05-2014, 01:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
You guys are funny as hell...

Get 4 OS's... WTF...

How much spl does one need above 20hz if I lock my pre-amp at reference... Lol

I will never be part of the... I want more then 120dB spl club...

And I only say 120dB because I want a little head room over reference.

In reality I only need 115dB at my seating. And 120dB if I run the bass hot.
Then SWOK.. I say 4 S2's and at least two of them behind your seats (near field). You probably have a better tactile feel with that way then transducers. Though, I have no experience with them. So I wouldn't know.
Other options not listed..
3 212HT LCR
4 S8's surrounds
4 S2's
That looks a lot better.. Just throwing it on the table. It's your investment bro. But I do hear you on the spl point. Single digits is fun if subs properly place if on concrete. Or if your ht is on a suspended floor..
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Old 10-05-2014, 01:03 AM
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Besides more consistent bass responce at seats... What does 4 Orbit Shifters give you over even 1 Orbit Shifter if all your looking for is up to 120db?

Sure it will slightly go lower, but the roll off is step and if I was going OS, I don't think I or any one really needs more then 2.

I know lbrowns has three, but that's to even out the responce over the entire room.

He was not after more SPL. At least I don't think he was.... Haha.
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Old 10-05-2014, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
Plus any addional 212HT's would be used as wides and not surrounds.

Wides may not make all the difference now, but once or if atmos gets big it will be a nice to have an all matching set.

I'm actually afraid 4 S2's might be to much for the room. Ha. And here you are telling me to get 4 OS's...
For a room that large four S2's is not going to be too much for your room. If you want to hit reference at 10hz you'll need four.
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Old 10-05-2014, 01:31 AM
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SWOK .. Another option is to keep your subversives. Get 2 more active subM with slaves. Run the slaves near field. And the four active where you want or where has the best response or gain in your room. That would be a total of 12 15" subs. Or six Submersives. I've had a chance to demo 4 m/s F2's up front. And 4 m/s SubM at the rear.. Friggin amazing.. Again just throwing in options on the table. Those Seaton subs will get you into 5hz too..
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Old 10-05-2014, 05:08 AM
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Nearfield subs are ideal, if your room layout supports it.

You do need to be able to time align all the subs.
I'd also recommend getting the same models and setting them all to the same filter settings, so that they are in phase at all frequencies.
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Old 10-05-2014, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
Plus any addional 212HT's would be used as wides and not surrounds.

Wides may not make all the difference now, but once or if atmos gets big it will be a nice to have an all matching set.

I'm actually afraid 4 S2's might be to much for the room. Ha. And here you are telling me to get 4 OS's...
Not only would 212s or 228s be a waste for surrounds, but it would be worse than coaxes.
You want wider directivity and for all surround and ceiling speakers to be as similar as possible.

Wides are a different in Atmos than with Audyssey DSX (which I'm not a fan of).
This is also true for legacy content with the Atmos up mixer.

They don't matrix the front 3 speakers to more speakers.
That does more harm than good, IMO. Apparently, Dolby agrees.
Instead, they just use additional speakers for object sources for Atmos sources.
For legacy sources, they only matrix surround speakers to other surround speakers (wides included), so they don't screw up clarity or imaging on the front soundstage.

So, think of it as front 3 in one group, and everything else in another group.

For speakers in a group, aside from timbre matching, it's good to have matching everything, so you get proper panning and imaging with no weird phase interactions.

I think any high efficiency coaxes would be ideal to use for surround, ceiling, and wides. You could go all JTR, or look at Reaction Audio or DIY Sound Group Volts.
These will have the wide dispersion angle and consistent frequency response you'd want.
I've been reading lately that angled ceiling speakers are beneficial.
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Old 10-05-2014, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
What about this lovely spec?

Maximum Peak SPL 123dB SPL @ 8m

Seriously? I'm calling out some JTR fanboyism here. 123db @ 8 METERS. That's some ridiculous output. Me thinks people are dismissing something they don't know about...heck, I didn't know the JBL M2 had this type of output.
So...

123db @ 8m
129dB @ 4m
135dB @ 2m
141dB @ 1m?

I remember either @mtg90 , @tuxedocivic (or some other design stud) mention that the physical limitation of CD's used in speakers today is 136dB, and in order to exceed that capability, one would have to employ a point source design, such as used by Danley.

Oh, wait...I just checked the JBL site... Someone seems to misquoted... It's 108dB Peak SPL @ 8m. Source



C'mon man...Fact check yo'self fool!
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Old 10-05-2014, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post
I remember either @mtg90 , @tuxedocivic (or some other design stud) mention that the physical limitation of CD's used in speakers today is 136dB, and in order to exceed that capability, one would have to employ a point source design, such as used by Danley.

C'mon man...Fact check yo'self fool!
Quote:
Comparison of the D2, which employs dual 3-inch, 8.2-ohm voice coils, with a traditional competitive titanium domed driver with a 3-inch diameter 4.1-ohm voice coil under plane wave tube measurement conditions to produce identical 149 dB SPL yields impressive results. The dual driver requires half as much power, yields more mid-band energy, is smoother in the last octave and produces far less distortion (See figures 2 and 3).
C'mon man...Fact check yo'self fool!

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Old 10-05-2014, 07:46 AM
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So guys, I haven't seen anyone do the math on how many S2's SOWK needs to hit 115-120 db's at 5hz in his 4400 cubic foot room. Does anyone know? I would guess it would take more than 4?

The tricky variable though is how much roll off his components have so I guess it's not that easy to figure out.

Still, even if he's hitting 120 db's at 5 hz it may not impress. I remember at Pop's place there were places in the room that 5hz was really cool and others you couldn't feel anything and that was with the equivalent of more than 4 Cap 2's in a 1500 cu ft room with a crazy house curve so as not to mask the low stuff with higher bass.

IMO:

Concrete + chasing single digits + large room = not happening. A year and a half ago I thought I could do it in my room with 8 18" subs. No dice.

Pop's is the only room I've experienced that pulls it off and it was still hit and miss depending on where you were in the room.




SOWK, you might be surprised at how much headroom you really want and like as you get down below 30hz. So much more of that bass is felt than heard and most can't get enough of that couch shaking/body shaking feel. I'm not talking about blowing up your ears at 140 db's at 50hz. The OS easily goes low enough to give you these heard-more-than-felt violent sensations.
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Old 10-05-2014, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
Plus any addional 212HT's would be used as wides and not surrounds.

Wides may not make all the difference now, but once or if atmos gets big it will be a nice to have an all matching set.

I'm actually afraid 4 S2's might be to much for the room. Ha. And here you are telling me to get 4 OS's…
Could do 3 S2's. Do 2 up front and 1 near field in the back. As far as wides, It is certainly your room and your money, but the Single 8's would be just fine for wides. I am not sure if you have heard them yet, but don't underestimate them. Would be cool to see a single 10 or single 12.
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Old 10-05-2014, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
You guys are funny as hell...

Get 4 OS's... WTF...

How much spl does one need above 20hz if I lock my pre-amp at reference... Lol

I will never be part of the... I want more then 120dB spl club...

And I only say 120dB because I want a little head room over reference.

In reality I only need 115dB at my seating. And 120dB if I run the bass hot.


Haha, yeah I know some of us are a little ridiculous...

However - dude, you are the guy that is maxing out the 215's!!! It's not like you are a light-weight!!
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Old 10-05-2014, 08:20 AM
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Eh.. I guess I dont need more output down low. But, there's something been my mind recently. Ever since the 215's performing so well in the mid bass region. I'm kinda hook! I was actually looking at 2 growlers up front next to the L/R speakers. And the growlers is a perfect size up front. Thoughts?
My thought is you are re-defining the term "overkill".

Opinions are not facts.
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Old 10-05-2014, 08:25 AM
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I know this is blasphemous but I plan on shrinking my room to about 2800 cubic feet within 3 years. So that may change people prospectives.

I guess what's more important two more S2's or the crowson transducers with a concrete slab.
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Old 10-05-2014, 08:30 AM
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^^^^^^not to completely rehash this but for me it wasn't even the spec (the incorrect spec of 123@ 8M) for the CD that seemed questionable, it was really the woofer delivering that down to 20hz. 123 @ 8M which equates to 141dB @ 1M for the CD in its band is one thing, but more the one ported 15" driver down to 20hz at those numbers is a whole different animal. Make sense? If one 15" driver in a ported cab that size can hit 141dB we (JBL actually) have truly changed the basic equation of SPL output of a "traditional" woofer transducer.


The CD used in the Noesis 212 is also capable of higher output than the total speaker package for its complete frequency range (60hz-20khz). Even more so for the 215RT which has to go down to 20hz. The CD is not the limiting factor the woofers for the low extension is. This is a smart design of course because distortion in the band where the CD plays is more easily perceived than in the lower octaves.


When I start looking at this speaker and know what my bass requirements are, I come to the opinion that I would likely need subs and that would defeat the whole purpose of design wouldn't it? I would not even begin to think that I could take this speaker and implement subs and still wind up with the attributes JBL designed into this full range speaker.


I also believe that this speaker run full range is going to be something that has to be heard to fully understand. Maybe it would be so good that my bass craving would not be a priority and my opinion about needing more bass output would change, but that is a huge leap for me and would have to be heard to be believed. Either way the original spec of the SPL numbers and FR range didn't make sense. The revised numbers are much more believable (with the woofer being the limiting factor for SPL)


This speaker certainly has our attention. Good move Doc.

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Old 10-05-2014, 08:33 AM
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So guys, I haven't seen anyone do the math on how many S2's SOWK needs to hit 115-120 db's at 5hz in his 4400 cubic foot room. Does anyone know? I would guess it would take more than 4?

The tricky variable though is how much roll off his components have so I guess it's not that easy to figure out.

Still, even if he's hitting 120 db's at 5 hz it may not impress. I remember at Pop's place there were places in the room that 5hz was really cool and others you couldn't feel anything and that was with the equivalent of more than 4 Cap 2's in a 1500 cu ft room with a crazy house curve so as not to mask the low stuff with higher bass.

IMO:

Concrete + chasing single digits + large room = not happening. A year and a half ago I thought I could do it in my room with 8 18" subs. No dice.

Pop's is the only room I've experienced that pulls it off and it was still hit and miss depending on where you were in the room.




SOWK, you might be surprised at how much headroom you really want and like as you get down below 30hz. So much more of that bass is felt than heard and most can't get enough of that couch shaking/body shaking feel. I'm not talking about blowing up your ears at 140 db's at 50hz. The OS easily goes low enough to give you these heard-more-than-felt violent sensations.
I've got plenty of 5hz content at 105db+ like Pop but I don't care for it other than in the 2nd and 3rd rows where sitting on the wooden risers. First row on concrete is mainly just moving clothes and room pressure. I really prefer the 140+db 35-65hz that the 21s provide compared to sub 10hz stuff. Room (35x18x10) but baffle wall shortens it to 31' deep. So really similar to sowk and not impressive to me on concrete below 10hz with 10 DIY 21s.
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Old 10-05-2014, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
I know this is blasphemous but I plan on shrinking my room to about 2800 cubic feet within 3 years. So that may change people prospectives.

I guess what's more important two more S2's or the crowson transducers with a concrete slab.

If it were me it would depend on where the S2's are going.

If it's 2 S2's upfront and 2 S2's nearfield right behind the main seating I'd take that. If none of the S2's are nearfield I'd take the 2 Crowsons and 2 S2's.
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Old 10-05-2014, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
Besides more consistent bass responce at seats... What does 4 Orbit Shifters give you over even 1 Orbit Shifter if all your looking for is up to 120db?

Sure it will slightly go lower, but the roll off is step and if I was going OS, I don't think I or any one really needs more then 2.
Depends on how many sealed 18" equivalent you want below the horn's knee.
Each orbit shifter is the equivalent of a single 18" sealed sub (plus a bit) under horn knee. (apparently you get a bit of bonus with a horn - not just a 1:1 equivalent of sealed - see link)
Driver excursion below the knee, horn vs. sealed


soooooo


while four orbit shifters is the equivalent of four + sealed s1 subs below 22 hz --- its the equivalent of...16 + sealed drivers above 22hz.

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Old 10-05-2014, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post
I've got plenty of 5hz content at 105db+ like Pop but I don't care for it other than in the 2nd and 3rd rows where sitting on the wooden risers. First row on concrete is mainly just moving clothes and room pressure. I really prefer the 140+db 35-65hz that the 21s provide compared to sub 10hz stuff. Room (35x18x10) but baffle wall shortens it to 31' deep. So really similar to sowk and not impressive to me on concrete below 10hz with 10 DIY 21s.
Woah!!! I didn't realize you had 10 21's!!!!
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Old 10-05-2014, 08:42 AM
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Woah!!! I didn't realize you had 10 21's!!!!
Lol. Yep first person to purchase the FTW 21s. Paid in full up front way he could purchase the parts to do the first preorder.
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Old 10-05-2014, 08:49 AM
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Not only would 212s or 228s be a waste for surrounds, but it would be worse than coaxes.
You want wider directivity and for all surround and ceiling speakers to be as similar as possible.
This is a subjective preference, not a universal answer.


If I had unlimited funds I'd buy 212HT for front 3 and all 228HT for rears. I've heard 228HT as rears at dlbecks and they were the best sounding, most capable surround sound I've ever heard. Comb filtering concerns in something the size of the 228HT are a non concern. (my own subjective observations) It's one of those things that might be slightly measureable, but isn't audible. I've played with my 228HT in both vertical and horizontal alignments in my own theater and couldn't tell the difference. IF in a single row theater or theater space where the 60* dispersion pattern of the 228HT surround speaker covers the entire seating area - why would you want 180* dispersion pattern of a traditional coax spraying all the walls? This is a subjective preference. Each listener can make up his own mind. I don't see how a universal rule would apply.
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Old 10-05-2014, 08:52 AM
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This is a subjective preference, not a universal answer.


If I had unlimited funds I'd buy 212HT for front 3 and all 228HT for rears. I've heard 228HT as rears at dlbecks and they were the best sounding, most capable surround sound I've ever heard. Comb filtering concerns in something the size of the 228HT are a non concern. (my own subjective observations) It's one of those things that might be slightly measureable, but isn't audible. I've played with my 228HT in both vertical and horizontal alignments in my own theater and couldn't tell the difference. In single row theaters or theaters were the 60* dispersion pattern of the 228HT surround speaker covers the seating area - why would you want 180* dispersion pattern of a traditional coax spraying all the walls? This is a subjective preference. Each listener can make up his own mind. I don't see how a universal rule would apply.
Are you posting while at church?!?!

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