Official JTR speaker thread - Page 808 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #24211 of 36155 Old 10-06-2014, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
I'll be real interested in how much Andrew has to change the speaker trims between the M2's and 215's. Gooddoc do you still have your 212's? If so how much more sensitive are they than the M2's? In my room it is an 11 db difference between the 212's and 215's.
It will be different amps with different gains, so will be impossible to make direct comparisons. 212's are gone, but for same reason having them wouldn't help.
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post #24212 of 36155 Old 10-06-2014, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Sweet, thanks! That's 3, anyone have a raw Danley or Seaton measurement?

215

M2

212
Yeh: BUT this is even tighter constraints than ya'lls graphs



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Does anyone know the what the output dB of a single S2 is at 5 htz?
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Hmm, I don't know how low digits numbers do with concrete. But if your after tactile feel too. Then you might wanna add transducers. Other then that, after countless threads here in AVS, seems ported on concrete maybe what you would want. Definately OS.. I think Popalock has he's sealed 16 18's on concrete. Some here got a demo of he's room. Maybe they can chime on here and tell us what they think of the single digits on concrete slab. Archaea? Carp?
I have listened now to multiple big driver sealed setups, and including my own, that are some of the most potent down to the very lowest of the lows. Number one, I am not sure if you have ever experienced single digits, but attempting to get it, in a room your size, on a concrete slab, is a tall order...One I don;t think you should consider. You modify that low end requirement to something like 12hz? Then we are talking feasible, but it will still take a good amount of kit to get you even there, and all for what? A few effects in a few movies. Now let's consider what you would need from an S2 standpoint, bottom line, you would need TOO much, from a sanity standpoint, and from a monetary. You need the most output you can get from your subs to say, down to 18-20hz. This is why the OS or a pair even, will be perfect for you. IF you are still concerned with the material from their tuning down to the single digits, then get the crowsons. All too often people think they are really enjoying the single digits, when in fact what they are listening to (or actually hearing), is nowhere close to single digits, more likely 17hz and up, and harmonics of the fundamental. This doesn't count for people on suspended floors that have resonant freqs in the single digits but that is still "Feeling" more than "Hearing." The crowsons excel in this regard.

Having already been the first to max out the 215's, I don't feel like there is even another option for you than a couple OS. FWIW and IMHO.

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Yea, I think you might be right there. But I know even less about that than all the other audio stuff I know very little about .
Larger boxes are needed for lower port tunes without running into chuffing and too high port velocity.
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post #24213 of 36155 Old 10-06-2014, 02:20 PM
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I'm not sure what the 215 uses. The JBL driver was custom built for the M2 and carries 5 new driver patents. It looks like it has at least 16 mm of xmax. I suck at reading this stuff though. Not sure of the eminence specs. Would be interesting to compare specs http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...p?33565-2216Nd if some one has the 215 specs.
JTR's is for sure a custom lab 15. Gooddoc, don't get too caught up in JBL's marketing, I've read you say the driver has multiple patents a few times, that honestly means nothing, it's no different than XBL2 tech of anything similar to that. They all have multiple patents as well, there really is nothing that special about that driver, it's not some new design that will take the world by storm. There are lots of super high end speakers that use off the shelf drivers, tweaked for their own needs.
One thing you'll notice about JBL is they charge a lot for drivers. You could take a 2242H, that sells new for 1000$ but has 200$ worth of parts. Thats not to say its not a great driver, it is I have 12 of them but I only paid 300$ a piece.

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post #24214 of 36155 Old 10-06-2014, 02:43 PM
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JTR's is for sure a custom lab 15. Gooddoc, don't get too caught up in JBL's marketing, I've read you say the driver has multiple patents a few times, that honestly means nothing, it's no different than XBL2 tech of anything similar to that. They all have multiple patents as well, there really is nothing that special about that driver, it's not some new design that will take the world by storm. There are lots of super high end speakers that use off the shelf drivers, tweaked for their own needs.
One thing you'll notice about JBL is they charge a lot for drivers. You could take a 2242H, that sells new for 1000$ but has 200$ worth of parts. Thats not to say its not a great driver, it is I have 12 of them but I only paid 300$ a piece.
Yea, roger that. I don't disagree. But I posted the actual specs, not the marketing drivel for someone who knows what they mean to compare them to the 215 driver, or at least a similar driver to the 215. But I also don't buy that there is any serious customization for the driver used in the 215. My point was that I would put my money on the JBL driver being more "custom" than the driver in the 215, only for the fact that JBL actually manufactures the driver and true customization is far more likely. Not that it has ANY bearing on actual performance differences, since "custom" has nothing to do with "better"

Someone should be able to look at those specs http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...p?33565-2216Nd and say whether the driver is poor, average, or great in comparison to other 15" drivers. There seems to be a lot a data there.

I love these speakers, but I'm far more into objective stuff than fanboyism

Last edited by Gooddoc; 10-06-2014 at 02:53 PM.
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post #24215 of 36155 Old 10-06-2014, 03:17 PM
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Can someone show some comps/graphs to other pro 15s from this data? I can't find an xmax but all other info is clearly stated. I don't have a CPU running so reading from phone and most likely over looked it.

I still can't figure out what load the amp is seeing from the LF and HF of them either since it is using both channels per speaker. The main speaker spec says 8ohm but 15 spec says 5.27ohms.

It's FR range is excellent for sure but I have to see graphs to understand most of the specs/data.

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post #24216 of 36155 Old 10-06-2014, 03:31 PM
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Can someone show some comps/graphs to other pro 15s from this data? I can't find an xmax but all other info is clearly stated. I don't have a CPU running so reading from phone and most likely over looked it.

I still can't figure out what load the amp is seeing from the LF and HF of them either since it is using both channels per speaker. The main speaker spec says 8ohm but 15 spec says 5.27ohms.

It's FR range is excellent for sure but I have to see graphs to understand most of the specs/data.
Yea, one channel for the CD and one channel for the woofer. How that translates to 8 ohms, I don't know .
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post #24217 of 36155 Old 10-06-2014, 04:46 PM
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Mjbuoni posted some really nice looking 212HT 1m measurements that also include a distortion graph. He said that these don't include EQ, although he said that he did boost the bass by 3db.

Anyway, those JBL 2216Nd THD graphs made me think of this. From a THD perspective, it looks like the JBL 2216Nd would benefit from a subwoofer below 80hz. It gets into 100% THD territory, while good subwoofers can go below 1% THD. - Correction! I was reading the wrong graph. The JBL's THD looks fine.

On the other hand, for the power drag race, keep in mind that the M2s use an active crossover, which is roughly equivalent to about 30% more power than a passive crossover. So, (1,200 + 1,200)x1.3 = equivalent to 3,120 watts/channel. That should get the job done!

Mjbuoni's 212HT @ 1m:


Edit:
I just realized I was reading the JBL graphs wrong.
See page 10 and 11:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...p?33565-2216Nd

The THD is MUCH more reasonable than I said until you get to extreme power levels. Oops.

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post #24218 of 36155 Old 10-06-2014, 05:28 PM
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Just to clarify, these measurements were at around 95 dB (even though the graph says 70 dB) at 1-1.5 m from the center of the horn and with the speaker ~4 feet away from the back wall in my acoustically treated room. There was no EQ or high-pass filter, but I did boost the bass by +3 dB on the tone control. I found it interesting that you can clearly see the crossover at 350-400 Hz as a rise in 2nd harmonic distortion due to larger displacement required by the compression driver, although still very low with THD < 0.5% over 80-20kHz. Clearly a well-designed speaker with smooth FR, even though I do prefer to boost the bass 2-3 dB for a "warmer" presentation.
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post #24219 of 36155 Old 10-06-2014, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post

Anyway, those JBL 2216Nd THD graphs made me think of this. From a THD perspective, it looks like the JBL 2216Nd would benefit from a subwoofer below 80hz. It gets into 100% THD territory, while good subwoofers can go below 1% THD.
Where can I see this?
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post #24220 of 36155 Old 10-06-2014, 05:49 PM
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I just realized I was reading the JBL graphs wrong.
See page 10 and 11:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...p?33565-2216Nd

The THD is MUCH more reasonable than I said until you get to extreme power levels. Oops.
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post #24221 of 36155 Old 10-06-2014, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post
Where can I see this?
I just updated it with my correction - reading the wrong graph.
Page 10 & 11 here:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...p?33565-2216Nd
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post #24222 of 36155 Old 10-06-2014, 05:59 PM
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I just updated it with my correction - reading the wrong graph.
Page 10 & 11 here:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...p?33565-2216Nd

Lol yea I was wondering what everyone was missing. I triple checked every graph I had pulled up and was starting to question myself.
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post #24223 of 36155 Old 10-06-2014, 08:31 PM
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Just thought I'd share...finally tripped a fuse in the ht room with the shifters. Edge of Tomorrow ULF sweep 0:22-0:37. At only -25 master av volume, with subs ampd at -10.

Might finally need to upgrade outlets to 20a.
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post #24224 of 36155 Old 10-06-2014, 09:32 PM
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Just thought I'd share...finally tripped a fuse in the ht room with the shifters. Edge of Tomorrow ULF sweep 0:22-0:37. At only -25 master av volume, with subs ampd at -10.

Might finally need to upgrade outlets to 20a.
Tripping breakers? I look forward to meeting this new Asim one day soon.
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post #24225 of 36155 Old 10-06-2014, 09:50 PM
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Tripping breakers? I look forward to meeting this new Asim one day soon.
Haha....What...you didn't feel it all the way over there??
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post #24226 of 36155 Old 10-06-2014, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post
Just thought I'd share...finally tripped a fuse in the ht room with the shifters. Edge of Tomorrow ULF sweep 0:22-0:37. At only -25 master av volume, with subs ampd at -10.

Might finally need to upgrade outlets to 20a.

I tripped two OS's at my last GTG playing the Book of Eli gunshot out, but we were at much higher levels (probably +5 or something). At the time I was using 20a lines but with a powerstrip that was only 15a. Since then I removed the power strip and they do not trip anymore.
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post #24227 of 36155 Old 10-06-2014, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post
Just thought I'd share...finally tripped a fuse in the ht room with the shifters. Edge of Tomorrow ULF sweep 0:22-0:37. At only -25 master av volume, with subs ampd at -10.

Might finally need to upgrade outlets to 20a.
Yea.. It gets costly.. Just let your electrician know you wanna run 12 awg also to each. While changing out the outlets and breakers. What you have? 2 OS? Nice.. But after that they'll run much more effeciant.
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post #24228 of 36155 Old 10-06-2014, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
On the other hand, for the power drag race, keep in mind that the M2s use an active crossover, which is roughly equivalent to about 30% more power than a passive crossover. So, (1,200 + 1,200)x1.3 = equivalent to 3,120 watts/channel. That should get the job done!
Source please, kind sir.
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post #24229 of 36155 Old 10-06-2014, 11:45 PM
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Source please, kind sir.
You mean the percentage?

It's actually not a single, consistent figure. Every source that quotes a number says a different one.

It depends on the details of the passive crossover and what's being played. Active crossovers don't consume any amplifier power.
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post #24230 of 36155 Old 10-06-2014, 11:48 PM
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Source please, kind sir.
If you'd consider this a valid source, Wikipedia says active crossovers are up to 2x more efficient than passive:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_crossover#Active
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post #24231 of 36155 Old 10-07-2014, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post
Just thought I'd share...finally tripped a fuse in the ht room with the shifters. Edge of Tomorrow ULF sweep 0:22-0:37. At only -25 master av volume, with subs ampd at -10.

Might finally need to upgrade outlets to 20a.
Are your Orbit Shifters each on their own 15a circuit? And one of them tripped?

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Time for me to face reality...spend a bunch of money on HT this Christmas...upgrade to ATMOS...get a new/bigger screen ....or buy my daughter a car. She is just turning 16 (yes, I know I am old...got happily married at 21). I hope you like your new car sweetie

I can keep living vicariously through you guys
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Time for me to face reality...spend a bunch of money on HT this Christmas...upgrade to ATMOS...get a new/bigger screen ....or buy my daughter a car. She is just turning 16 (yes, I know I am old...got happily married at 21). I hope you like your new car sweetie

I can keep living vicariously through you guys
When it's a one or the other choice, then you do the right thing. It's what separates the men from the boys.
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The JBL M2 was at RMAF last year. Maybe they will be there again this year. It would be cool to take some measurements. Maybe hand them an Omnimic CD and say, "I'd really like to hear track 6."

Besides the 215RT with its automotive finish ($8998), I hope to hear at least the Vapor Audio Joule Black ($12,495), Seaton Catalyst 12C ($8,190), the Salk Exotic 3's ($11,995), and the JBL M2's.
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post #24235 of 36155 Old 10-07-2014, 07:17 AM
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The JBL M2 was at RMAF last year. Maybe they will be there again this year. It would be cool to take some measurements. Maybe hand them an Omnimic CD and say, "I'd really like to hear track 6."

Besides the 215RT with its automotive finish ($8998), I hope to hear at least the Vapor Audio Joule Black ($12,495), Seaton Catalyst 12C ($8,190), the Salk Exotic 3's ($11,995), and the JBL M2's.
I don't know what it is about the Catalyst 12c..always have intruiged me. I have never heard them, I have no reason to believe they are better/worse than my 212s but something about them interests me. Might be an itch I have to scratch some day.
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post #24236 of 36155 Old 10-07-2014, 07:30 AM
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When it's a one or the other choice, then you do the right thing. It's what separates the men from the boys.
This made me chuckle to myself as I just bought my grandson his first auto.
Carry on men, I will just cuddly here with Frohlich on the porch swing.
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Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post
Just thought I'd share...finally tripped a fuse in the ht room with the shifters. Edge of Tomorrow ULF sweep 0:22-0:37. At only -25 master av volume, with subs ampd at -10.

Might finally need to upgrade outlets to 20a.
So 2 OS on a single 15A circuit? Or do you have other items on it as well?
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post #24238 of 36155 Old 10-07-2014, 08:44 AM
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Yea, roger that. I don't disagree. But I posted the actual specs, not the marketing drivel for someone who knows what they mean to compare them to the 215 driver, or at least a similar driver to the 215. But I also don't buy that there is any serious customization for the driver used in the 215. My point was that I would put my money on the JBL driver being more "custom" than the driver in the 215, only for the fact that JBL actually manufactures the driver and true customization is far more likely. Not that it has ANY bearing on actual performance differences, since "custom" has nothing to do with "better"

Someone should be able to look at those specs http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...p?33565-2216Nd and say whether the driver is poor, average, or great in comparison to other 15" drivers. There seems to be a lot a data there.

I love these speakers, but I'm far more into objective stuff than fanboyism
Love is a many splendored thing ...

Jeff tried 3 custom spec'd/built drivers for the 215's before settling on "the one". He has done this with all his subwoofer drivers. I know cause I was waiting for the first pair with a GTG with a lot of logistics issues around it depending upon it getting finished in time. The degree of "serious customization" is I suppose debatable but it is not an off the shelf woofer.

Really doc, your enthusiasm is great and I'm really excited for you re your speaker discovery. I'm going to be spending a good amount of time on LA freeways to hear these puppies do in no small measure to your audio rapture. I expect to hear something special and truthfully, I hope I do.

Opinions are not facts.
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post #24239 of 36155 Old 10-07-2014, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post
Just thought I'd share...finally tripped a fuse in the ht room with the shifters. Edge of Tomorrow ULF sweep 0:22-0:37. At only -25 master av volume, with subs ampd at -10.

Might finally need to upgrade outlets to 20a.
Are your Orbit Shifters each on their own 15a circuit? And one of them tripped?
Each OS is on its own 15a outlet. Jeff said I would be fine as long as they were on separate outlets and he was right. I've had them run past reference, but the combination of turning up the sub amp and that insane ULF sweep in EOT just requires more juice.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post
Each OS is on its own 15a outlet. Jeff said I would be fine as long as they were on separate outlets and he was right. I've had them run past reference, but the combination of turning up the sub amp and that insane ULF sweep in EOT just requires more juice.
Sounds like a fun demo clip ...

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