Official JTR speaker thread - Page 811 - AVS Forum
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post #24301 of 24698 Old 10-05-2014, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Thanks. Ok, so 3dB advantage with the 2nd 15" woofer in the 215?

Assuming that's correct, I'm just trying to wrap my mind around why the 215 is considered as having so much more output capability than the M2 if the 2nd driver of the 215 only gives 3dB advantage over the single driver of the M2? And that's assuming the M2 and 215 15" drivers are equal in output. I'm not so sure they are. 6 dB would be huge, but 3 dB not so much.
Per JBL Pro specs the M2's sensitivity is 92 db at 1W/1m. JTR puts the 215 at 95 db at 2.0V, which at 4 ohms is 1 watt. JTR's website doesn't say the distance, but I assume it's 1m also. The M2 extends to 20 Hz vs the JTR's 18 Hz. Neither of these manufacturers has given us any reason to doubt the honesty of their specs.

I'd expect some difference in bass response, but it's not night and day.
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post #24302 of 24698 Old 10-05-2014, 05:50 PM
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@SyntheticShrimp - thanks for the input.

On another note, how do you like your Seymour XD screen? And does it need a total batcave?
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post #24303 of 24698 Old 10-05-2014, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
@SyntheticShrimp - thanks for the input.

On another note, how do you like your Seymour XD screen? And does it need a total batcave?
I like it. The lights should be off to get the best contrast, but the image is still plenty bright with the lights on. I hate sitting in the dark so they mostly come off when we watch new movies.

Before this I had a motorized elite screens acoustically transparent screen that had awful moire effect, and it required a batcave. I don't have either problem with the Seymour. Perforated screens will always let some light through that will reflect off the back wall and wash out the image. The best thing I can tell you is to make sure you get an acoustically transparent black backing if you don't want to paint your room matte black.

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post #24304 of 24698 Old 10-05-2014, 06:30 PM
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Doc, do you know how much power the 15 can get from the amp? Like how are they wired between amp and drivers, etc..? And, just out of curiosity, does the driver move very much at "your" loud levels or is it pretty much like a pro woofer and doesn't need much movement to get loud?
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post #24305 of 24698 Old 10-05-2014, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by SyntheticShrimp View Post
I like it. The lights should be off to get the best contrast, but the image is still plenty bright with the lights on. I hate sitting in the dark so they mostly come off when we watch new movies.

Before this I had a motorized elite screens acoustically transparent screen that had awful moire effect, and it required a batcave. I don't have either problem with the Seymour. Perforated screens will always let some light through that will reflect off the back wall and wash out the image. The best thing I can tell you is to make sure you get an acoustically transparent black backing if you don't want to paint your room matte black.
Well, matte black would be an improvement over what I have now, just don't tell my wife I said that .

But that's not going to happen. I didn't know they had a black backing, so thanks, I'll be sure to get that.
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post #24306 of 24698 Old 10-05-2014, 07:19 PM
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Official JTR speaker thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post
I think cabinet size is a pretty big factor too.

I would also imagine the Xmax of the drivers might also have something to do with it. The 215RT uses custom Eminence LAB15's doesn't it?
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Last edited by jbrown15; 10-05-2014 at 07:37 PM.
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post #24307 of 24698 Old 10-05-2014, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by mjbuoni View Post
+6 dB for two woofers when powering each woofer with the same power as the single woofer case (so double power). +3 dB if power is held constant and split between the two woofers. This assumes perfect phase alignment of the woofers, i.e. center-to-center distance much less than wavelength of frequencies reproduced.
This assumes the additional sub is allocated the same internal box volume as the other.
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Last edited by popalock; 10-05-2014 at 09:08 PM. Reason: Spelling. Damn fat fingers and small phones!
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post #24308 of 24698 Old 10-05-2014, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post
This assumes the additional sub is allocated the same internal box vokume asnthe other.

You can also have the boxes spread out in the room and not gain 6dB. Other factors can come into play.
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post #24309 of 24698 Old 10-05-2014, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Why do you ask?
I saw his name on the list of posters on this thread and realized I haven't seen him post in a long time. He was posting a lot back when I first heard about JTR and was a big reason why I bought my first Captivator.
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post #24310 of 24698 Old 10-05-2014, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
I saw his name on the list of posters on this thread and realized I haven't seen him post in a long time. He was posting a lot back when I first heard about JTR and was a big reason why I bought my first Captivator.
Oh good, Mike is a good guy and when you asked that I thought something might have happened to him.

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post #24311 of 24698 Old 10-05-2014, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
I would also imagine the Xmax of the drivers might also have something to do with it. The 215RT uses custom Eminence LAB15's doesn't it?
I'm not sure what the 215 uses. The JBL driver was custom built for the M2 and carries 5 new driver patents. It looks like it has at least 16 mm of xmax. I suck at reading this stuff though. Not sure of the eminence specs. Would be interesting to compare specs http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...p?33565-2216Nd if some one has the 215 specs.
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post #24312 of 24698 Old 10-05-2014, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post
This assumes the additional sub is allocated the same internal box vokume asnthe other.
Makes sense. I'm just trying to get a handle on what the additional 15" driver and cabinet size does in comparing the two designs for bass output. It really comes down to what the differences are in driver output I think? If the 215 has an advantage from a raw driver output perspective and the additional driver and cabinet volume, then it will be no contest. If the M2 driver is a bit more robust, then some of the advantages of the additional 215 driver/cabinet will be mitigated.

Academic really, since the GTG will answer a lot of questions. Just curious if we could make any educated guesses before the rubber meets the road.

Last edited by Gooddoc; 10-05-2014 at 09:10 PM.
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post #24313 of 24698 Old 10-05-2014, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by SyntheticShrimp View Post
Per JBL Pro specs the M2's sensitivity is 92 db at 1W/1m. JTR puts the 215 at 95 db at 2.0V, which at 4 ohms is 1 watt. JTR's website doesn't say the distance, but I assume it's 1m also. The M2 extends to 20 Hz vs the JTR's 18 Hz. Neither of these manufacturers has given us any reason to doubt the honesty of their specs.

I'd expect some difference in bass response, but it's not night and day.
Agreed, assuming no house curve, up to about 108db @ 8m.
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post #24314 of 24698 Old 10-05-2014, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Makes sense. I'm just trying to get a handle on what the additional 15" driver and cabinet size does in comparing the two designs for bass output. It really comes down to what the differences are in driver output I think? If the 215 has an advantage from a raw driver output perspective and the additional driver and cabinet volume, then it will be no contest. If the M2 driver is a bit more robust, then some of the advantages of the additional 215 driver/cabinet will be mitigated.

Academic really, since the GTG will answer a lot of questions. Just curious if we could make any educated guesses before the rubber meets the road.
Sounds like you are preparing for an all out SPLfest...

I look at this from a simplistic standpoint. The 215RT is +3dB more sensitive with (almost) double the recommended power handling.

Meaning, the 215RT should theoretically have a +6dB advantage accross the board.

As far as your comment about "the rubber meeting the road." I think expectations need to be kept in check. If the rubber meets the road within the SPL limits of the M2, then it's going to be a good showing. Otherwise, this will be the first GTG group in history that will get to hear a $10K speaker distress fart... Also, turning this into an all out SPLfest would kinda detract from what makes the M2 special. I can't recall the last time I did some critical listening at 120dB+...lol

Both speakers are going to be powered by an IPR7500, correct? Or is "cleaner" powered required for these puppies to shine?
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post #24315 of 24698 Old 10-05-2014, 10:25 PM
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Yea, you're right, preparing for an SPL fest with this crowd is probably overreacting .

Your points are well taken. The power handling of the M2 at a recommended 1200w vs 2000w is a difference that should give the 215 a good advantage in output, and it certainly may turn out that the M2 will absolutely need to be crossed over for HT. The thing is I haven't used them for HT at all yet aside from a few quick clips with my subs in a double bass scenario. So I'm as curious about the M2's as I am the 215's as to bass output.

I don't have any expectations regarding the GTG at this point beyond what I've discovered of their capabilities so far and what I know of the 215 from owners here. This is just a fun exercise to see what specs might tell us before the meet.

And yes, you're right, critical listening doesn't happen much after 105-110 dB . And thinking about it, I certainly wouldn't look forward to hear my speakers fart, lol.

As to amps, the M2's have to use the Crown amps due to the active crossovers. But no, I don't think they require any "special" power
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post #24316 of 24698 Old 10-06-2014, 06:46 AM
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My Aunt worked an assistant accountant for JBL/Harmon Kardon in the 80's...early on we were able to get HK/JBL gear at Tokyo manufacture cost which was 45% of retail..55% off MSRP.. retail dealers paid 70% of MSRP.Thye cut us off 1-2 yrs later, had to pay what dealer paid.... The $$ model is most likely close for the M2, 10K speaker, built from 4K of material & labor, $500 in transport+ the path to 10K sticker, is to support the PHd's at JBL, 12 VP's overhead , CEDIA parties etc...

Jeff @ JTR, does not have to support that JBL cruise ship, plus he also doe snot have the support of that cruise ship either.

Vince
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post #24317 of 24698 Old 10-06-2014, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by vince32837 View Post
c...

Jeff @ JTR, does not have to support that JBL cruise ship, plus he also doe snot have the support of that cruise ship either.

Vince
And IMO it is better for both parties. Certainly never know what the future holds though. JTR could be the next JBL.
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post #24318 of 24698 Old 10-06-2014, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Yea, you're right, preparing for an SPL fest with this crowd is probably overreacting .

Your points are well taken. The power handling of the M2 at a recommended 1200w vs 2000w is a difference that should give the 215 a good advantage in output, and it certainly may turn out that the M2 will absolutely need to be crossed over for HT. The thing is I haven't used them for HT at all yet aside from a few quick clips with my subs in a double bass scenario. So I'm as curious about the M2's as I am the 215's as to bass output.

I don't have any expectations regarding the GTG at this point beyond what I've discovered of their capabilities so far and what I know of the 215 from owners here. This is just a fun exercise to see what specs might tell us before the meet.

And yes, you're right, critical listening doesn't happen much after 105-110 dB . And thinking about it, I certainly wouldn't look forward to hear my speakers fart, lol.

As to amps, the M2's have to use the Crown amps due to the active crossovers. But no, I don't think they require any "special" power
I suppose it would be asking too much for you to bring along your LG amp?

That way you are assured of hearing all the 215 has to offer...
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post #24319 of 24698 Old 10-06-2014, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
I suppose it would be asking too much for you to bring along your LG amp?

That way you are assured of hearing all the 215 has to offer...
The fanboy deep inside me hopes the 215 ends up on a t-amp for the day .

But of course I could bring it. Although I think there will likely be plenty of amplification for it there already.
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post #24320 of 24698 Old 10-06-2014, 07:54 AM
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Doc, how are the drivers wired to the ITs? Like does the 15 get one ch and the horn get the other, etc..? I see a spec of 8ohms but that's it from couple pages back.
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post #24321 of 24698 Old 10-06-2014, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
The fanboy deep inside me hopes the 215 ends up on a t-amp for the day .

But of course I could bring it. Although I think there will likely be plenty of amplification for it there already.
Yeah, just thought folks might like to hear them with a good clean 2000wpc and find the true limits (with a HP filter in place ) of each speaker. But you're right, this shouldn't be an SPL drag race.

Honestly, I will be shocked if the M2 isn't an outright winner in terms of SQ and if it can hang with the 215 bass wise ... .

Luckily, I will be able to form my own opinion.

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post #24322 of 24698 Old 10-06-2014, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Yeah, just thought folks might like to hear them with a good clean 2000wpc and find the true limits (with a HP filter in place ) of each speaker. But you're right, this shouldn't be an SPL drag race.

Honestly, I will be shocked if the M2 isn't an outright winner in terms of SQ and if it can hang with the 215 bass wise ... .

Luckily, I will be able to form my own opinion.
The top end maybe, but I don't see it hanging bass wise.
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post
Sounds like you are preparing for an all out SPLfest...

I look at this from a simplistic standpoint. The 215RT is +3dB more sensitive with (almost) double the recommended power handling.

Meaning, the 215RT should theoretically have a +6dB advantage accross the board.

As far as your comment about "the rubber meeting the road." I think expectations need to be kept in check. If the rubber meets the road within the SPL limits of the M2, then it's going to be a good showing. Otherwise, this will be the first GTG group in history that will get to hear a $10K speaker distress fart... Also, turning this into an all out SPLfest would kinda detract from what makes the M2 special. I can't recall the last time I did some critical listening at 120dB+...lol

Both speakers are going to be powered by an IPR7500, correct? Or is "cleaner" powered required for these puppies to shine?
I'll be real interested in how much Andrew has to change the speaker trims between the M2's and 215's. Gooddoc do you still have your 212's? If so how much more sensitive are they than the M2's? In my room it is an 11 db difference between the 212's and 215's.
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post #24324 of 24698 Old 10-06-2014, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
I'll be real interested in how much Andrew has to change the speaker trims between the M2's and 215's. Gooddoc do you still have your 212's? If so how much more sensitive are they than the M2's? In my room it is an 11 db difference between the 212's and 215's.
It will be different amps with different gains, so will be impossible to make direct comparisons. 212's are gone, but for same reason having them wouldn't help.
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post #24325 of 24698 Old 10-06-2014, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Sweet, thanks! That's 3, anyone have a raw Danley or Seaton measurement?

215

M2

212
Yeh: BUT this is even tighter constraints than ya'lls graphs



Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
Does anyone know the what the output dB of a single S2 is at 5 htz?
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Hmm, I don't know how low digits numbers do with concrete. But if your after tactile feel too. Then you might wanna add transducers. Other then that, after countless threads here in AVS, seems ported on concrete maybe what you would want. Definately OS.. I think Popalock has he's sealed 16 18's on concrete. Some here got a demo of he's room. Maybe they can chime on here and tell us what they think of the single digits on concrete slab. Archaea? Carp?
I have listened now to multiple big driver sealed setups, and including my own, that are some of the most potent down to the very lowest of the lows. Number one, I am not sure if you have ever experienced single digits, but attempting to get it, in a room your size, on a concrete slab, is a tall order...One I don;t think you should consider. You modify that low end requirement to something like 12hz? Then we are talking feasible, but it will still take a good amount of kit to get you even there, and all for what? A few effects in a few movies. Now let's consider what you would need from an S2 standpoint, bottom line, you would need TOO much, from a sanity standpoint, and from a monetary. You need the most output you can get from your subs to say, down to 18-20hz. This is why the OS or a pair even, will be perfect for you. IF you are still concerned with the material from their tuning down to the single digits, then get the crowsons. All too often people think they are really enjoying the single digits, when in fact what they are listening to (or actually hearing), is nowhere close to single digits, more likely 17hz and up, and harmonics of the fundamental. This doesn't count for people on suspended floors that have resonant freqs in the single digits but that is still "Feeling" more than "Hearing." The crowsons excel in this regard.

Having already been the first to max out the 215's, I don't feel like there is even another option for you than a couple OS. FWIW and IMHO.

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Yea, I think you might be right there. But I know even less about that than all the other audio stuff I know very little about .
Larger boxes are needed for lower port tunes without running into chuffing and too high port velocity.
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post #24326 of 24698 Old 10-06-2014, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
I'm not sure what the 215 uses. The JBL driver was custom built for the M2 and carries 5 new driver patents. It looks like it has at least 16 mm of xmax. I suck at reading this stuff though. Not sure of the eminence specs. Would be interesting to compare specs http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...p?33565-2216Nd if some one has the 215 specs.
JTR's is for sure a custom lab 15. Gooddoc, don't get too caught up in JBL's marketing, I've read you say the driver has multiple patents a few times, that honestly means nothing, it's no different than XBL2 tech of anything similar to that. They all have multiple patents as well, there really is nothing that special about that driver, it's not some new design that will take the world by storm. There are lots of super high end speakers that use off the shelf drivers, tweaked for their own needs.
One thing you'll notice about JBL is they charge a lot for drivers. You could take a 2242H, that sells new for 1000$ but has 200$ worth of parts. Thats not to say its not a great driver, it is I have 12 of them but I only paid 300$ a piece.

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post #24327 of 24698 Old 10-06-2014, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
JTR's is for sure a custom lab 15. Gooddoc, don't get too caught up in JBL's marketing, I've read you say the driver has multiple patents a few times, that honestly means nothing, it's no different than XBL2 tech of anything similar to that. They all have multiple patents as well, there really is nothing that special about that driver, it's not some new design that will take the world by storm. There are lots of super high end speakers that use off the shelf drivers, tweaked for their own needs.
One thing you'll notice about JBL is they charge a lot for drivers. You could take a 2242H, that sells new for 1000$ but has 200$ worth of parts. Thats not to say its not a great driver, it is I have 12 of them but I only paid 300$ a piece.
Yea, roger that. I don't disagree. But I posted the actual specs, not the marketing drivel for someone who knows what they mean to compare them to the 215 driver, or at least a similar driver to the 215. But I also don't buy that there is any serious customization for the driver used in the 215. My point was that I would put my money on the JBL driver being more "custom" than the driver in the 215, only for the fact that JBL actually manufactures the driver and true customization is far more likely. Not that it has ANY bearing on actual performance differences, since "custom" has nothing to do with "better"

Someone should be able to look at those specs http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...p?33565-2216Nd and say whether the driver is poor, average, or great in comparison to other 15" drivers. There seems to be a lot a data there.

I love these speakers, but I'm far more into objective stuff than fanboyism

Last edited by Gooddoc; 10-06-2014 at 01:53 PM.
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post #24328 of 24698 Old 10-06-2014, 02:17 PM
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Can someone show some comps/graphs to other pro 15s from this data? I can't find an xmax but all other info is clearly stated. I don't have a CPU running so reading from phone and most likely over looked it.

I still can't figure out what load the amp is seeing from the LF and HF of them either since it is using both channels per speaker. The main speaker spec says 8ohm but 15 spec says 5.27ohms.

It's FR range is excellent for sure but I have to see graphs to understand most of the specs/data.

Last edited by audiovideoholic; 10-06-2014 at 02:23 PM.
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post #24329 of 24698 Old 10-06-2014, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post
Can someone show some comps/graphs to other pro 15s from this data? I can't find an xmax but all other info is clearly stated. I don't have a CPU running so reading from phone and most likely over looked it.

I still can't figure out what load the amp is seeing from the LF and HF of them either since it is using both channels per speaker. The main speaker spec says 8ohm but 15 spec says 5.27ohms.

It's FR range is excellent for sure but I have to see graphs to understand most of the specs/data.
Yea, one channel for the CD and one channel for the woofer. How that translates to 8 ohms, I don't know .
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post #24330 of 24698 Old 10-06-2014, 03:46 PM
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Mjbuoni posted some really nice looking 212HT 1m measurements that also include a distortion graph. He said that these don't include EQ, although he said that he did boost the bass by 3db.

Anyway, those JBL 2216Nd THD graphs made me think of this. From a THD perspective, it looks like the JBL 2216Nd would benefit from a subwoofer below 80hz. It gets into 100% THD territory, while good subwoofers can go below 1% THD. - Correction! I was reading the wrong graph. The JBL's THD looks fine.

On the other hand, for the power drag race, keep in mind that the M2s use an active crossover, which is roughly equivalent to about 30% more power than a passive crossover. So, (1,200 + 1,200)x1.3 = equivalent to 3,120 watts/channel. That should get the job done!

Mjbuoni's 212HT @ 1m:


Edit:
I just realized I was reading the JBL graphs wrong.
See page 10 and 11:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...p?33565-2216Nd

The THD is MUCH more reasonable than I said until you get to extreme power levels. Oops.

Last edited by rcohen; 10-06-2014 at 05:05 PM.
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