Official JTR speaker thread - Page 817 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #24481 of 31063 Old 10-12-2014, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post
Isn't the OS indestructible?
It was... until Tom Cruise came along!

BTW: Anyone know about clip lights? Is it ok for it to blink now and then or are we supposed to make sure it's always green 100% of the time?
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post #24482 of 31063 Old 10-12-2014, 07:26 AM
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^^I think Jeff told me when the clip light starts to flicker you still have bout 3dB of headroom. Actually not sure if he said 3 or 6 dB of headroom.

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post #24483 of 31063 Old 10-12-2014, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post
^^I think Jeff told me when the clip light starts to flicker you still have bout 3dB of headroom. Actually not sure if he said 3 or 6 dB of headroom.
So, I am good then.

I'll need to know the limits of the OS so i don't destroy it... it's my precious!!!
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post #24484 of 31063 Old 10-12-2014, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Thanks for the comments Rob.

I find it interesting that when you get into the quality of speakers in the 212/215/M2 zone it gets hard to qualify the differences because they're small.

But even though they're small differences, I find that the impact of those small differences on the listening experience can be huge. It's kind of odd that as one moves closer and closer to perfection the smallest of details can pull one away from the goal. This can be observed in special effects graphics in movies where we're light years ahead of where we were, yet still so far to go. Yet if you think back at your impressions of special effects (that are outright primitive by today's standards) in movies ten years ago it seemed they were so awesome and so "real" at the time. Same problem in the robotics industry where the closer one gets to mimicking actual human behavior, but not quite getting there, the creepier and weirder it is to look at it. The difference between real and not so close is all in the VERY small details.

Yikes, sorry for that ramble
Interesting ramble ...

I think visual information is easier to qualify and quantify than sound. Of course musicians and sound engineers would disagree as with training and direct experience, one should be able to discern differences in sound better than the average person. I am not so granular in how I listen. My impressions are formed by the sum of all of the parts rather than a breakdown of those elements. What I find great about the 215RT's is the detail and cohesion of the sound top to bottom. They are efficient enough to go louder than I can tolerate (in my room) and are as "dynamic" as any speaker I have heard in my room. Those impressions my the Audio Circle guys quoted above were very telling about the sound quality of the 215's. Funny thing is I don't think either of those guys could or would buy them as they lack the aesthetics (WAF) to fit in a standard non-dedicated room. But for someone like me who considers aesthetics secondary or if placed behind an AT screen, they are a wonderful answer for full range sound reproduction (movies and music).

I am hoping the M2's provide the same experience and move the sound quality bar to an even higher level. I can't imagine how they could sound significantly better but welcome the opportunity to hear for myself. You and the other guys attending Andrews GTG are lucky as you will get to hear them back to back and blind. That would be a lot of fun and assuming the setup of both is correct, a very telling session. Can't wait for those impressions that I can compare to my own sighted non-sequential impressions.

Good stuff Gooddoc.

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Last edited by RMK!; 10-13-2014 at 06:47 AM.
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post #24485 of 31063 Old 10-12-2014, 09:14 AM
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Jtr rmaf 2014

Sorry to quote myself but I thought this post bore repeating and the Eagles references are hilarious.

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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Very cool. I hope this post is OK as I copied the image and text from the other forum. I assume the "douche" mentioned below is our one and only DD . I think this review really points out the importance of proper setup, and in using great source material. I (and several others here) know the 215RT's are capable of this type of performance. It's is nice to hear a report from someone who isn't part of the JTR fan base.

Seriously guys (Jeff and Michael) nice job!

Quote:
[Tyson]

General Room Notes – HOLY CRAP THOSE ARE BIG SPEAKERS! I think my entire head and torso can fit inside the tweeter horn. Hahah, love it. Listening to Elton John off their server and it’s surprisingly coherent because I’m sitting literally 4 feet from them. Aha, someone moved and I now have nabbed the sweet spot! Love it when someone else’s butt keeps a seat warm for me. Probably more intimate than I thought it was possible to be at an audio show.

Mahler Symphony 6 – Big, big sound. I think the orchestra has more weight and heft here then we’ve heard at the show yet. Room treatments help, but I think the speakers are too big for the room, the highs are a bit hot. Or, that’s not right. It’s more that the highs are more dynamic sounding and really tend to jump out at you.

Handel Aria – Love that these make the singer sound life sized. So many other rooms just have a mini-me presentation of singers/musicians. No hardness or harshness with the human voice.

Saint Saens – Danse Macabre (Violin & Piano) – Good groove and jump. A tad analytical sounding. Surprisingly cohesive for such a giant speaker.

Tom Waits (Jockey Full of Bourbon) – Well, we were listening to this track but the douche running the room decided to “mix things up here”, and cut over to the f**king Eagles. To quote the Big Lebowski – “C’mon man, I hate the f**king Eagles”.

Oh thank god, a decent human being slapped down that track and put our disc back on. Yay! OK, different listening spot and everything coheres a lot better. Very nimble, very detailed, and great imaging once you get into the right spot.

Natalie Merchant (Peppery Man) – Oh yeah, those voices reach down deeeeeepppp! Weight and gravitas in spades. And did I mention life size? Makes everyone else at the show sound downright puny. It’s the audio equivalent of kicking sand in the face of all the other vendors. Charles Atlas says “Take That!”.



On the Mahler this system is ****ing ballsy as hell!!!! Best dynamics by far that I've heard today. Best soundstage and imagining. Really rock solid.

Handel another incredible performance. Sooooo smooth soooo dynamic sooooo emotive. One of those rare Jems that makes me forget to type AND listen.

Saens so much texture and depth. Effortless effortless effortless!!!! Pretty much head and shoulders above the rest.

Yikes.... They just stopped my portion of the track. No Tom Waits. F**king Eagles hotel California. Sigh..... Ok so yes it sounds great but I am sooooo damn tired of this track. Absolutely positively over used to the point of annoyance.

Ok they've but Waits back on. For the lack of quality (despite smh redo) this track sounds pretty damn incredible. I'm relatively blown away here. Great pace superb too to bottom integration. Just well done.

Merchant - yes this seals it for me. This room is a must hear. Such amazing control and confidence. For horns they are basically lacking any sort of coloration. Superb detail and excellent dynamics.

First A+ of the day.

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post #24486 of 31063 Old 10-12-2014, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
My HSU subs saved by the FUSE...

Apparently, the fuse broke... and replaced it and now my subs are working again.

Question: The OS doesn't seem to have a fuse... is the 'clipping' on the amp acting like a fuse?

BTW: I tested the OS with that EOT clip and apparently at -9 it was still ok. At -8, the clipping light was lighting up towards the end (where the 10hz wave hits).

Now, is this ok? Is a bit of clipping (the orange light lightning up for a little) ok? Or, you must always avoid the singlest orange light?

Oh, another thing.. my OS was literally jumping up and down, moving first forward, then backwards... when i placed my head between the OS and the wall to look at the clip light, the OS nearly crushed me as it came crushing towards the wall...
Here's a good explanation of the LED lights on the Speaker Power amps on the the JTR active subs. Explanation taken from Seaton Sound forum..
http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post/connection-setup-guide-submersive-hp-f2-5999706
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post #24487 of 31063 Old 10-12-2014, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
...Oh, another thing.. my OS was literally jumping up and down, moving first forward, then backwards... when i placed my head between the OS and the wall to look at the clip light, the OS nearly crushed me as it came crushing towards the wall...
LOL [emoji23]
Sorry, the way you described it...placing your head...was funny...can see it now...'When Subs Turn on their Owners!'

I was moving both of mine yesterday to turn ports toward LP (liked results btw) and it was a chore. Those are 200lb each, so that's one slippery floor you've got or that thing really likes to dance.
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post #24488 of 31063 Old 10-12-2014, 09:47 AM
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@RMK Having never heard the 215's I can't say for certain what the difference, if any, there will be between these speakers. Although I have a lot of listening time with the CD in the 215, it is a different horn, LF drivers, and crossover. So all bets are off. I have little doubt that it is an outstanding speaker and wouldn't rule out it winning the shootout based on the comments I read regarding it's SQ.

But your comments are potentially telling for me. The difference is that when evaluating the speakers at the GTG's or at home my primary thoughts were just as you describe of the 215, primarily detail, dynamics, and perhaps "musicality"(or how "clinical" they are). The difference with the M2's, and what grabbed my attention as different from all those others, is that my thoughts are dominated by clarity and realness, not those other descriptors.
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post #24489 of 31063 Old 10-12-2014, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhed View Post
Here's a good explanation of the LED lights on the Speaker Power amps on the the JTR active subs. Explanation taken from Seaton Sound forum..
http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/po...-hp-f2-5999706
Thanks. According to Mark, if the Amber is brightly lit, headroom is nearing it's limits. I wonder if this is the same case with the OS.. i believe these are DSP amps and it's up to the designer to set things. For example, Mark may set the Amber light to turn on when headroom is about 3dB to limit and Jeff might set it to 6dB...


Quote:
Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post
LOL [emoji23]
Sorry, the way you described it...placing your head...was funny...can see it now...'When Subs Turn on their Owners!'

I was moving both of mine yesterday to turn ports toward LP (liked results btw) and it was a chore. Those are 200lb each, so that's one slippery floor you've got or that thing really likes to dance.
HAHA... yeah, it scared me for a second. That thing is huge and heavy, and when it's moving towards you to crush your head in, it was almost impossible to move it away.. i had to snatch my head away.. i couldn't stop it marching towards the wall...

and yes, slippery floor i guess.. it's sitting on my solid wood floor..
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post #24490 of 31063 Old 10-12-2014, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
@RMK Having never heard the 215's I can't say for certain what the difference, if any, there will be between these speakers. Although I have a lot of listening time with the CD in the 215, it is a different horn, LF drivers, and crossover. So all bets are off. I have little doubt that it is an outstanding speaker and wouldn't rule out it winning the shootout based on the comments I read regarding it's SQ.

But your comments are potentially telling for me. The difference is that when evaluating the speakers at the GTG's or at home my primary thoughts were just as you describe of the 215, primarily detail, dynamics, and perhaps "musicality"(or how "clinical" they are). The difference with the M2's, and what grabbed my attention as different from all those others, is that my thoughts are dominated by clarity and realness, not those other descriptors.
You guys have really good vocabulary...

If i like a speaker, i'll say, 'it's phreakin damn good'... and if i don't like it, i'll say , 'muddled and silly sounding speaker'...
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post #24491 of 31063 Old 10-12-2014, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Thanks. According to Mark, if the Amber is brightly lit, headroom is nearing it's limits. I wonder if this is the same case with the OS.. i believe these are DSP amps and it's up to the designer to set things. For example, Mark may set the Amber light to turn on when headroom is about 3dB to limit and Jeff might set it to 6dB...




HAHA... yeah, it scared me for a second. That thing is huge and heavy, and when it's moving towards you to crush your head in, it was almost impossible to move it away.. i had to snatch my head away.. i couldn't stop it marching towards the wall...

and yes, slippery floor i guess.. it's sitting on my solid wood floor..
Speaker Power has those indicators regardless of dsp or no dsp. If the amber lights does come on, it is or it's nearing it's limits. So I would treat it at that. Or we end up finding out the hard way..haha. I don't think the dsp programmer has a option when and when not to turn the amber lights on. It's like a safety light that the manufacture put in so that we don't damage our subwoofer.
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post #24492 of 31063 Old 10-12-2014, 10:03 AM
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^^^Yeah, but that won't help your post count

If you want to compete with RMK you need to do a lot of writing
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post #24493 of 31063 Old 10-12-2014, 10:04 AM
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^^^Yeah, but that won't help your post count

If you want to compete with RMK you need to do a lot of writing
Who gives a sh!t about post count.. What are we high schoolers? Lol!
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post #24494 of 31063 Old 10-12-2014, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
You guys have really good vocabulary...

If i like a speaker, i'll say, 'it's phreakin damn good'... and if i don't like it, i'll say , 'muddled and silly sounding speaker'...
Yeah, perhaps a little too much time spent reading Stereophile does that to a person ...
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post #24495 of 31063 Old 10-12-2014, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by rhed View Post
Speaker Power has those indicators regardless of dsp or no dsp. If the amber lights does come on, it is or it's nearing it's limits. So I would treat it at that. Or we end up finding out the hard way..haha. I don't think the dsp programmer has a option when and when not to turn the amber lights on. It's like a safety light that the manufacture put in so that we don't damage our subwoofer.
When those lights light up, does it mean nearing the 'amp's power limit', or the woofer's capability/xmax?

If it's nearing the Amp's power, then if the woofer can't take the full force of the amp, wouldn't that mean even if it's green, your woofer could be damaged?

For instance, the US version of the OS's amp is rated 4000 watts with max burst of 8000. The one for overseas is 6000 watts with burst of 12,000.... meaning, if you guys maxes out your amp and the woofer survives, mine might not because the amp has 4000 extra watts during bursts!
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post #24496 of 31063 Old 10-12-2014, 10:09 AM
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Who gives a sh!t about post count.. What are we high schoolers? Lol!
Ummm, that was a joke, subtle satire.

But thanks for the posting opportunity .
(BTW, ^^that's meant as a funny too )
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post #24497 of 31063 Old 10-12-2014, 10:13 AM
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Ummm, that was a joke, subtle satire.

But thanks for the posting opportunity .
(BTW, ^^that's meant as a funny too )
I know it was a joke brotha!! Haha!
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post #24498 of 31063 Old 10-12-2014, 10:18 AM
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Cool

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^^^Yeah, but that won't help your post count

If you want to compete with RMK you need to do a lot of writing
Actually, they are all the same post ... just slightly re-arranged each time.

Self plagiarism if you will and mostly nonsensical ...

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post #24499 of 31063 Old 10-12-2014, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
When those lights light up, does it mean nearing the 'amp's power limit', or the woofer's capability/xmax?

If it's nearing the Amp's power, then if the woofer can't take the full force of the amp, wouldn't that mean even if it's green, your woofer could be damaged?

For instance, the US version of the OS's amp is rated 4000 watts with max burst of 8000. The one for overseas is 6000 watts with burst of 12,000.... meaning, if you guys maxes out your amp and the woofer survives, mine might not because the amp has 4000 extra watts during bursts!
IMO it's the driver.. But then again it takes a lot more to damage the drivers. Say, length of time... Meaning if your were to play a clip, sine wave, or what ever with the clip light fully lit for good amount of time continuously. Then damage will happen. Overheating of the drivers is the enemy to destruction.. So I wouldn't worry to much for only a mere 5 seconds of clip light. You'll probably end up tripping a breaker before damaging the subs.
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post #24500 of 31063 Old 10-12-2014, 10:28 AM
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Here's a pretty cool video on subs giving out.. Lol..
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post #24501 of 31063 Old 10-12-2014, 10:36 AM
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Actually, they are all the same post ... just slightly re-arranged each time.

Self plagiarism if you will and mostly nonsensical ...
RMK.. " you are my hero!" .. How bout that? You must have heard that one a million times in this thread. But in a re-arrange way. I mean you've went through all the JTR line up first. Gave a review.. Then everyone goes and get some JTR's too.. Lol!
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post #24502 of 31063 Old 10-12-2014, 10:43 AM
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Here's a pretty cool video on subs giving out.. Lol..
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IRE7IahmbyQ

You've gotta give props to the MTX sub. Thats insanely impressive it took 120v that long. I've seen lots of guys blow up subs in my car audio days, generally they just hit a bit note and go poof but there are the odd ones that can have completely destroyed surrounds, the cone can be flopping around and it still works lol. I once had a dayton HO 18" that jumped the gap! the VC was stuck on the landing lol I pushed it back in with a screwdriver and that subs is still going to this day! lol
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post #24503 of 31063 Old 10-12-2014, 10:46 AM
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You've gotta give props to the MTX sub. Thats insanely impressive it took 120v that long. I've seen lots of guys blow up subs in my car audio days, generally they just hit a bit note and go poof but there are the odd ones that can have completely destroyed surrounds, the cone can be flopping around and it still works lol. I once had a dayton HO 18" that jumped the gap! the VC was stuck on the landing lol I pushed it back in with a screwdriver and that subs is still going to this day! lol
I've notice that about the MTX sub in that video. I actually wondered about those subs too back in the car audio days. All I I every was into was Cerwin Vegas and Boston's.
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post #24504 of 31063 Old 10-12-2014, 11:18 AM
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MTX's were decent enough, along the lines of Kicker, Rockford etc. I had 2 x 12" thunders in a truck I had once. They were good subs. I've always personally been a kicker guy and still am. I can get them for 70% off retail and they perform pretty well. My favotite 2 subs I've had were 2 x round Solo 12's. Way back when they were round. I won 6 dB drags with those 12! Then Mark came onto the scene with Mach 5, I got to know him and used 2 of his SPL 15's and won every event I ever went in. Those subs were insane. Nothing really like it out in their time. I'd show up, do a quick burp, be 6-8 dB's louder than anyone else in the 15" category and be on my way LOL. Lots of fun in those days! Hitting 160dB in a vehicle is quite the experience hahaha

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post #24505 of 31063 Old 10-12-2014, 11:19 AM
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IMO it's the driver.. But then again it takes a lot more to damage the drivers. Say, length of time... Meaning if your were to play a clip, sine wave, or what ever with the clip light fully lit for good amount of time continuously. Then damage will happen. Overheating of the drivers is the enemy to destruction.. So I wouldn't worry to much for only a mere 5 seconds of clip light. You'll probably end up tripping a breaker before damaging the subs.
The amp does not know the power handling capability of the subwoofer...it has no idea if it is one super woofer or a couple woofers connected. That's why the sub designer has to test the overall sub system with amp to make sure the sub can handle the amp's power, even with artificial sine waves. I've talked to Mark Seaton before and know he punishes subwoofers to ensure they will hold up and he has burnt through more than a few.

By the way, sine waves should be used with caution as they are artificial and put a lot more load on a subwoofer in a specific frequency instead of like most signals, which utilize most of the subwoofer range. Higher sine waves at say 80 Hz are especially dangerous since the subwoofer isn't moving much at 80 Hz and can't cool itself, while at 20 Hz, the sub is at least moving and can dissipate heat.
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post #24506 of 31063 Old 10-12-2014, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by rhed View Post
I've notice that about the MTX sub in that video. I actually wondered about those subs too back in the car audio days. All I I every was into was Cerwin Vegas and Boston's.
+1. I was into the Boston Acoustics Pro separates and 10" subwoofer. The tweeters were too bright but I loved the sound of that subwoofer.
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post #24507 of 31063 Old 10-12-2014, 11:31 AM
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In the realm PLIIz or DSX prior to actual Atmos --- has anyone tried height speakers actually overhead?


Here's my question in more detail with pics...
Traditional height speakers directly above or slightly forward of seating area?

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post #24508 of 31063 Old 10-12-2014, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
The amp does not know the power handling capability of the subwoofer...it has no idea if it is one super woofer or a couple woofers connected. That's why the sub designer has to test the overall sub system with amp to make sure the sub can handle the amp's power, even with artificial sine waves. I've talked to Mark Seaton before and know he punishes subwoofers to ensure they will hold up and he has burnt through more than a few.

By the way, sine waves should be used with caution as they are artificial and put a lot more load on a subwoofer in a specific frequency instead of like most signals, which utilize most of the subwoofer range. Higher sine waves at say 80 Hz are especially dangerous since the subwoofer isn't moving much at 80 Hz and can't cool itself, while at 20 Hz, the sub is at least moving and can dissipate heat.
So your saying it's the amplifier that's reaching it's limits? Well I guess that makes sense. Because it'll cost more to change the amp then the subwoofer if sh!t happens right? Well cheaper for most subs anyway..
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post #24509 of 31063 Old 10-12-2014, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
MTX's were decent enough, along the lines of Kicker, Rockford etc. I had 2 x 12" thunders in a truck I had once. They were good subs. I've always personally been a kicker guy and still am. I can get them for 70% off retail and they perform pretty well. My favotite 2 subs I've had were 2 x round Solo 12's. Way back when they were round. I won 6 dB drags with those 12! Then Mark came onto the scene with Mach 5, I got to know him and used 2 of his SPL 15's and won every event I ever went in. Those subs were insane. Nothing really like it out in their time. I'd show up, do a quick burp, be 6-8 dB's louder than anyone else in the 15" category and be on my way LOL. Lots of fun in those days! Hitting 160dB in a vehicle is quite the experience hahaha
WTH N8! You have a bass addiction problem. You used to compete in car audio competition too? I used to go. But more to check it out rather then compete.. Lol..
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post #24510 of 31063 Old 10-12-2014, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhed View Post
So your saying it's the amplifier that's reaching it's limits? Well I guess that makes sense. Because it'll cost more to change the amp then the subwoofer if sh!t happens right? Well cheaper for most subs anyway..
I'd say the amp is reaching it's limits with the gain structure delivered by your receiver/preamp and amp settings. It might not be the actual limits of the amp/sub but close enough that the system limit is likely being reached. With that said, I think the woofer would blow before a SpeakerPower amp...those are beefy amps and do have some internal protections...but being efficient digital they also don't create lots of heat, which is important for any piece of electronics.
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