Official JTR speaker thread - Page 817 - AVS Forum
First ... 815  816  817 818  819  ... Last
Speakers > Official JTR speaker thread
RMK!'s Avatar RMK! 10:45 AM 10-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post
I think being full range will help and no sub has to be matched up. Very nice review though in that post...great to read such positive feedback for Jeff's hard work. While you've got multiple people engineering other speakers, you've got one guy who's kicking @$$ all on his own.
Very true. But a lot of the positive in the review is in the careful preparation, setup and EQ that Michael (Desertdome) did with JRiver. That guy is a wizard with that product and the 215RT's ( like virtually any speaker) need proper setup. I know mine aren't perfect, but they are pretty damn good for a close wall, behind AT screen install and Michael and Jeff were a great help.

Gooddoc's Avatar Gooddoc 10:51 AM 10-11-2014
Has anyone evaluated the 215's using this?:

http://www.hdtracks.com/the-ultimate-demonstration-disc

I'm curious what score you would give the 215's on the elements that are evaluated. Scale of 1-10, 10 being reproduction that in your opinion 100% faithfully reproduces what is being presented for evaluation. 5 being acheivement of half of the elements.

I really need to get over to Dave's to listen to them, but this is a cool exercise to compare subjective impressions.
RMK!'s Avatar RMK! 11:02 AM 10-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Has anyone evaluated the 215's using this?:

http://www.hdtracks.com/the-ultimate-demonstration-disc

I'm curious what score you would give the 215's on the elements that are evaluated. Scale of 1-10, 10 being reproduction that in your opinion 100% faithfully reproduces what is being presented for evaluation. 5 being acheivement of half of the elements.

I really need to get over to Dave's to listen to them, but this is a cool exercise to compare subjective impressions.
No as my system is currently down (Intergra out for repair). I will download once it is back and listen before the M2 demos. I'll bring the tracks along and if possible use them for the demo.
coolgeek's Avatar coolgeek 11:06 AM 10-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Has anyone evaluated the 215's using this?:

http://www.hdtracks.com/the-ultimate-demonstration-disc

I'm curious what score you would give the 215's on the elements that are evaluated. Scale of 1-10, 10 being reproduction that in your opinion 100% faithfully reproduces what is being presented for evaluation. 5 being acheivement of half of the elements.

I really need to get over to Dave's to listen to them, but this is a cool exercise to compare subjective impressions.
I did it with my 212s...

Needless to say, passed with flying colors!

I rated everything a solid 10...



ps: Everyone should get this disc... recordings are amazing!
Gooddoc's Avatar Gooddoc 11:20 AM 10-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
I did it with my 212s...

Needless to say, passed with flying colors!

I rated everything a solid 10...



ps: Everyone should get this disc... recordings are amazing!
Awesome! I ran through about half of it with the M2's and I can't give them a ten based on that. There were some elements I thought could be done better IMO. But 10 for me is a total transport to the space, pretty much a 3D holographic presentation.

Of course the entire audio chain and room is under evaluation and I'm using a Denon 4311 with an unbalanced to balanced convertor in the chain, so I don't really think it is where it could be.
Gooddoc's Avatar Gooddoc 11:27 AM 10-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
No as my system is currently down (Intergra out for repair). I will download once it is back and listen before the M2 demos. I'll bring the tracks along and if possible use them for the demo.

Yea, I think that's a solid way to focus on specific stuff for comparison. You might want to call ahead to see what format they can accommodate (ie - Disc, USB stick, etc.)
RMK!'s Avatar RMK! 12:22 PM 10-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Awesome! I ran through about half of it with the M2's and I can't give them a ten based on that. There were some elements I thought could be done better IMO. But 10 for me is a total transport to the space, pretty much a 3D holographic presentation.

Of course the entire audio chain and room is under evaluation and I'm using a Denon 4311 with an unbalanced to balanced convertor in the chain, so I don't really think it is where it could be.
I see a budding young (a matter of perspective) audiophile in the making.

J/K Doc , I am enjoying (vicariously) your experiences with the M2 and I am looking forward to hearing them myself. It is always good to know where the state of the art is in any hobby or undertaking. Keeping an open mind (and wallet) is a prerequisite and you strike a nice balance between the enthusiasm of discovery and intellectual curiosity.
hogues's Avatar hogues 01:37 PM 10-11-2014
To those considering going to Atmos, are any of you thinking of going with non-JTR speakers? I'm looking for some in-ceiling and came up with the JBL 226c/t (link), but they may be a inch or two too big. What are you guys going to do? Thanks!
Gooddoc's Avatar Gooddoc 01:42 PM 10-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
I see a budding young (a matter of perspective) audiophile in the making.

J/K Doc , I am enjoying (vicariously) your experiences with the M2 and I am looking forward to hearing them myself. It is always good to know where the state of the art is in any hobby or undertaking. Keeping an open mind (and wallet) is a prerequisite and you strike a nice balance between the enthusiasm of discovery and intellectual curiosity.
Thanks for the comments Rob.

I find it interesting that when you get into the quality of speakers in the 212/215/M2 zone it gets hard to qualify the differences because they're small.

But even though they're small differences, I find that the impact of those small differences on the listening experience can be huge. It's kind of odd that as one moves closer and closer to perfection the smallest of details can pull one away from the goal. This can be observed in special effects graphics in movies where we're light years ahead of where we were, yet still so far to go. Yet if you think back at your impressions of special effects (that are outright primitive by today's standards) in movies ten years ago it seemed they were so awesome and so "real" at the time. Same problem in the robotics industry where the closer one gets to mimicking actual human behavior, but not quite getting there, the creepier and weirder it is to look at it. The difference between real and not so close is all in the VERY small details.

Yikes, sorry for that ramble
carp's Avatar carp 01:43 PM 10-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Has anyone evaluated the 215's using this?:

http://www.hdtracks.com/the-ultimate-demonstration-disc

I'm curious what score you would give the 215's on the elements that are evaluated. Scale of 1-10, 10 being reproduction that in your opinion 100% faithfully reproduces what is being presented for evaluation. 5 being acheivement of half of the elements.

I really need to get over to Dave's to listen to them, but this is a cool exercise to compare subjective impressions.
I have it on Spotify!

Haha, I know that defeats the purpose having it on internet radio. The tracks do sound damn good though as is, lots of depth and detail even on Spotify. I need to download or by the cd though.
dgage's Avatar dgage 06:10 PM 10-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Thanks.. this is re-assuring..

BTW: my entire house is concrete/brick... no wood.. except for solid wood flooring (which is installed on top of concrete/cement screet).... so, potentially, sound could travel to the entire house and neighbor's houses (all connected), thru the concrete mega structure..
Coolgeek - If you want to be concerned with something...its those midbass stealing room-nodes. J/K.

I actually wanted to spend some time Friday afternoon working on my sealed 212s since the house was empty but my dog had an infected paw that took up the whole afternoon at the vet. I did get the projector I bought from ChopShop up and mounted earlier in the week so I really want to get my speakers sorted so we can experience the full home movie experience...I think 120" might make a pretty big difference compared to 60".
Snowmanick's Avatar Snowmanick 08:33 PM 10-11-2014
Heard the 215's today at RMAF. Tied for my favorite speaker demo with the PSB T3's. Both had strengths and weaknesses when compared to each other. The 215's were as powerful as they look, but could portray delicacy much better than some may expect. They had a huge soundstage, excellent top to bottom cohesion and were able to just grab ahold of the room and take you straight into the music. Very impressive.

The T3's were perhaps a bit more refined (I actually like them more than the Revel Ultima Studio2's I demo'd yesterday and a lot more than the F208's I listened to today). They also had a great soundstage and were very dynamic.

To my ears, and this may make sense to only me, the 215's were like going to a great live concert and the T3's were like listening to a great studio album. Not as lively but a bit more polished.

Depending on source material one will trump the other but both are great. Unfortunately my wife vetoed the 215's as soon as I showed her a picture. Which was after 25 minutes of singing their praises. Since my system resides in my living room I can understand, but boy am I jealous of you guys that get to have these. Jeff has a hell of a speaker here.
coolgeek's Avatar coolgeek 10:19 PM 10-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Coolgeek - If you want to be concerned with something...its those midbass stealing room-nodes. J/K.

I actually wanted to spend some time Friday afternoon working on my sealed 212s since the house was empty but my dog had an infected paw that took up the whole afternoon at the vet. I did get the projector I bought from ChopShop up and mounted earlier in the week so I really want to get my speakers sorted so we can experience the full home movie experience...I think 120" might make a pretty big difference compared to 60".
Have you posted pics with the new projector?

As for mid bass, you know, I don't think it's a big deal. The 212s still have very good mid bass (compared to other speakers i have ever owned), but just not at the type of level perhaps enthusiasts like us want (the keyword is 'want' rather than 'need').

When i have time and more money, i think i'll build my 18 inch MBMs..
coolgeek's Avatar coolgeek 10:23 PM 10-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Awesome! I ran through about half of it with the M2's and I can't give them a ten based on that. There were some elements I thought could be done better IMO. But 10 for me is a total transport to the space, pretty much a 3D holographic presentation.

Of course the entire audio chain and room is under evaluation and I'm using a Denon 4311 with an unbalanced to balanced convertor in the chain, so I don't really think it is where it could be.
I gave all 10 because the 212s are the best speakers i have listened to and passed each of the tracks at the 'best i have ever heard'... so, i don't know of any speakers that can trump it yet...

Until i find a speaker system that trumps the 212s, then that becomes the 10s, and then i can re-adjust the numbers for the 212s.

This test is so subjective that it's hard to know what's 10?? Without the 'best speaker in the world' setting the standard 10, there's literally no way to compare in relation to each other..

In any case, Good Ol Doc... you probably are a lot more versatile and experienced in all this!!
Gooddoc's Avatar Gooddoc 12:30 AM 10-12-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
I gave all 10 because the 212s are the best speakers i have listened to and passed each of the tracks at the 'best i have ever heard'... so, i don't know of any speakers that can trump it yet...

Until i find a speaker system that trumps the 212s, then that becomes the 10s, and then i can re-adjust the numbers for the 212s.

This test is so subjective that it's hard to know what's 10?? Without the 'best speaker in the world' setting the standard 10, there's literally no way to compare in relation to each other..

In any case, Good Ol Doc... you probably are a lot more versatile and experienced in all this!!
No, actually you're spot on coolgeek. There is no way to know what the goalpost is unless you're able to compare to a higher resolution system. You simply cannot hear what isn't reproduced or audible. Hearing something better than what we thought was "the best" is usually how the upgrade process works
coolgeek's Avatar coolgeek 07:16 AM 10-12-2014
My HSU subs saved by the FUSE...

Apparently, the fuse broke... and replaced it and now my subs are working again.

Question: The OS doesn't seem to have a fuse... is the 'clipping' on the amp acting like a fuse?

BTW: I tested the OS with that EOT clip and apparently at -9 it was still ok. At -8, the clipping light was lighting up towards the end (where the 10hz wave hits).

Now, is this ok? Is a bit of clipping (the orange light lightning up for a little) ok? Or, you must always avoid the singlest orange light?

Oh, another thing.. my OS was literally jumping up and down, moving first forward, then backwards... when i placed my head between the OS and the wall to look at the clip light, the OS nearly crushed me as it came crushing towards the wall...
popalock's Avatar popalock 07:18 AM 10-12-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
My HSU subs saved by the FUSE...

Apparently, the fuse broke... and replaced it and now my subs are working again.

Question: The OS doesn't seem to have a fuse... is the 'clipping' on the amp acting like a fuse?

BTW: I tested the OS with that EOT clip and apparently at -9 it was still ok. At -8, the clipping light was lighting up towards the end (where the 10hz wave hits).

Now, is this ok? Is a bit of clipping (the orange light lightning up for a little) ok? Or, you must always avoid the singlest orange light?

Oh, another thing.. my OS was literally jumping up and down, moving first forward, then backwards... when i placed my head between the OS and the wall to look at the clip light, the OS nearly crushed me as it came crushing towards the wall...
Isn't the OS indestructible?
coolgeek's Avatar coolgeek 07:22 AM 10-12-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post
Isn't the OS indestructible?
It was... until Tom Cruise came along!

BTW: Anyone know about clip lights? Is it ok for it to blink now and then or are we supposed to make sure it's always green 100% of the time?
lbrown105's Avatar lbrown105 08:26 AM 10-12-2014
^^I think Jeff told me when the clip light starts to flicker you still have bout 3dB of headroom. Actually not sure if he said 3 or 6 dB of headroom.
coolgeek's Avatar coolgeek 10:02 AM 10-12-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post
^^I think Jeff told me when the clip light starts to flicker you still have bout 3dB of headroom. Actually not sure if he said 3 or 6 dB of headroom.
So, I am good then.

I'll need to know the limits of the OS so i don't destroy it... it's my precious!!!
RMK!'s Avatar RMK! 10:05 AM 10-12-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Thanks for the comments Rob.

I find it interesting that when you get into the quality of speakers in the 212/215/M2 zone it gets hard to qualify the differences because they're small.

But even though they're small differences, I find that the impact of those small differences on the listening experience can be huge. It's kind of odd that as one moves closer and closer to perfection the smallest of details can pull one away from the goal. This can be observed in special effects graphics in movies where we're light years ahead of where we were, yet still so far to go. Yet if you think back at your impressions of special effects (that are outright primitive by today's standards) in movies ten years ago it seemed they were so awesome and so "real" at the time. Same problem in the robotics industry where the closer one gets to mimicking actual human behavior, but not quite getting there, the creepier and weirder it is to look at it. The difference between real and not so close is all in the VERY small details.

Yikes, sorry for that ramble
Interesting ramble ...

I think visual information is easier to qualify and quantify than sound. Of course musicians and sound engineers would disagree as with training and direct experience, one should be able to discern differences in sound better than the average person. I am not so granular in how I listen. My impressions are formed by the sum of all of the parts rather than a breakdown of those elements. What I find great about the 215RT's is the detail and cohesion of the sound top to bottom. They are efficient enough to go louder than I can tolerate (in my room) and are as "dynamic" as any speaker I have heard in my room. Those impressions my the Audio Circle guys quoted above were very telling about the sound quality of the 215's. Funny thing is I don't think either of those guys could or would buy them as they lack the aesthetics (WAF) to fit in a standard non-dedicated room. But for someone like me who considers aesthetics secondary or if placed behind an AT screen, they are a wonderful answer for full range sound reproduction (movies and music).

I am hoping the M2's provide the same experience and move the sound quality bar to an even higher level. I can't imagine how they could sound significantly better but welcome the opportunity to hear for myself. You and the other guys attending Andrews GTG are lucky as you will get to hear them back to back and blind. That would be a lot of fun and assuming the setup of both is correct, a very telling session. Can't wait for those impressions that I can compare to my own sighted non-sequential impressions.

Good stuff Gooddoc.
RMK!'s Avatar RMK! 10:14 AM 10-12-2014
Sorry to quote myself but I thought this post bore repeating and the Eagles references are hilarious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Very cool. I hope this post is OK as I copied the image and text from the other forum. I assume the "douche" mentioned below is our one and only DD . I think this review really points out the importance of proper setup, and in using great source material. I (and several others here) know the 215RT's are capable of this type of performance. It's is nice to hear a report from someone who isn't part of the JTR fan base.

Seriously guys (Jeff and Michael) nice job!

Quote:
[Tyson]

General Room Notes – HOLY CRAP THOSE ARE BIG SPEAKERS! I think my entire head and torso can fit inside the tweeter horn. Hahah, love it. Listening to Elton John off their server and it’s surprisingly coherent because I’m sitting literally 4 feet from them. Aha, someone moved and I now have nabbed the sweet spot! Love it when someone else’s butt keeps a seat warm for me. Probably more intimate than I thought it was possible to be at an audio show.

Mahler Symphony 6 – Big, big sound. I think the orchestra has more weight and heft here then we’ve heard at the show yet. Room treatments help, but I think the speakers are too big for the room, the highs are a bit hot. Or, that’s not right. It’s more that the highs are more dynamic sounding and really tend to jump out at you.

Handel Aria – Love that these make the singer sound life sized. So many other rooms just have a mini-me presentation of singers/musicians. No hardness or harshness with the human voice.

Saint Saens – Danse Macabre (Violin & Piano) – Good groove and jump. A tad analytical sounding. Surprisingly cohesive for such a giant speaker.

Tom Waits (Jockey Full of Bourbon) – Well, we were listening to this track but the douche running the room decided to “mix things up here”, and cut over to the f**king Eagles. To quote the Big Lebowski – “C’mon man, I hate the f**king Eagles”.

Oh thank god, a decent human being slapped down that track and put our disc back on. Yay! OK, different listening spot and everything coheres a lot better. Very nimble, very detailed, and great imaging once you get into the right spot.

Natalie Merchant (Peppery Man) – Oh yeah, those voices reach down deeeeeepppp! Weight and gravitas in spades. And did I mention life size? Makes everyone else at the show sound downright puny. It’s the audio equivalent of kicking sand in the face of all the other vendors. Charles Atlas says “Take That!”.



On the Mahler this system is ****ing ballsy as hell!!!! Best dynamics by far that I've heard today. Best soundstage and imagining. Really rock solid.

Handel another incredible performance. Sooooo smooth soooo dynamic sooooo emotive. One of those rare Jems that makes me forget to type AND listen.

Saens so much texture and depth. Effortless effortless effortless!!!! Pretty much head and shoulders above the rest.

Yikes.... They just stopped my portion of the track. No Tom Waits. F**king Eagles hotel California. Sigh..... Ok so yes it sounds great but I am sooooo damn tired of this track. Absolutely positively over used to the point of annoyance.

Ok they've but Waits back on. For the lack of quality (despite smh redo) this track sounds pretty damn incredible. I'm relatively blown away here. Great pace superb too to bottom integration. Just well done.

Merchant - yes this seals it for me. This room is a must hear. Such amazing control and confidence. For horns they are basically lacking any sort of coloration. Superb detail and excellent dynamics.

First A+ of the day.

rhed's Avatar rhed 10:31 AM 10-12-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
My HSU subs saved by the FUSE...

Apparently, the fuse broke... and replaced it and now my subs are working again.

Question: The OS doesn't seem to have a fuse... is the 'clipping' on the amp acting like a fuse?

BTW: I tested the OS with that EOT clip and apparently at -9 it was still ok. At -8, the clipping light was lighting up towards the end (where the 10hz wave hits).

Now, is this ok? Is a bit of clipping (the orange light lightning up for a little) ok? Or, you must always avoid the singlest orange light?

Oh, another thing.. my OS was literally jumping up and down, moving first forward, then backwards... when i placed my head between the OS and the wall to look at the clip light, the OS nearly crushed me as it came crushing towards the wall...
Here's a good explanation of the LED lights on the Speaker Power amps on the the JTR active subs. Explanation taken from Seaton Sound forum..
http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post/connection-setup-guide-submersive-hp-f2-5999706
asoofi1's Avatar asoofi1 10:36 AM 10-12-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
...Oh, another thing.. my OS was literally jumping up and down, moving first forward, then backwards... when i placed my head between the OS and the wall to look at the clip light, the OS nearly crushed me as it came crushing towards the wall...
LOL [emoji23]
Sorry, the way you described it...placing your head...was funny...can see it now...'When Subs Turn on their Owners!'

I was moving both of mine yesterday to turn ports toward LP (liked results btw) and it was a chore. Those are 200lb each, so that's one slippery floor you've got or that thing really likes to dance.
Gooddoc's Avatar Gooddoc 10:47 AM 10-12-2014
@RMK Having never heard the 215's I can't say for certain what the difference, if any, there will be between these speakers. Although I have a lot of listening time with the CD in the 215, it is a different horn, LF drivers, and crossover. So all bets are off. I have little doubt that it is an outstanding speaker and wouldn't rule out it winning the shootout based on the comments I read regarding it's SQ.

But your comments are potentially telling for me. The difference is that when evaluating the speakers at the GTG's or at home my primary thoughts were just as you describe of the 215, primarily detail, dynamics, and perhaps "musicality"(or how "clinical" they are). The difference with the M2's, and what grabbed my attention as different from all those others, is that my thoughts are dominated by clarity and realness, not those other descriptors.
coolgeek's Avatar coolgeek 10:53 AM 10-12-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhed View Post
Here's a good explanation of the LED lights on the Speaker Power amps on the the JTR active subs. Explanation taken from Seaton Sound forum..
http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/po...-hp-f2-5999706
Thanks. According to Mark, if the Amber is brightly lit, headroom is nearing it's limits. I wonder if this is the same case with the OS.. i believe these are DSP amps and it's up to the designer to set things. For example, Mark may set the Amber light to turn on when headroom is about 3dB to limit and Jeff might set it to 6dB...


Quote:
Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post
LOL [emoji23]
Sorry, the way you described it...placing your head...was funny...can see it now...'When Subs Turn on their Owners!'

I was moving both of mine yesterday to turn ports toward LP (liked results btw) and it was a chore. Those are 200lb each, so that's one slippery floor you've got or that thing really likes to dance.
HAHA... yeah, it scared me for a second. That thing is huge and heavy, and when it's moving towards you to crush your head in, it was almost impossible to move it away.. i had to snatch my head away.. i couldn't stop it marching towards the wall...

and yes, slippery floor i guess.. it's sitting on my solid wood floor..
coolgeek's Avatar coolgeek 10:55 AM 10-12-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
@RMK Having never heard the 215's I can't say for certain what the difference, if any, there will be between these speakers. Although I have a lot of listening time with the CD in the 215, it is a different horn, LF drivers, and crossover. So all bets are off. I have little doubt that it is an outstanding speaker and wouldn't rule out it winning the shootout based on the comments I read regarding it's SQ.

But your comments are potentially telling for me. The difference is that when evaluating the speakers at the GTG's or at home my primary thoughts were just as you describe of the 215, primarily detail, dynamics, and perhaps "musicality"(or how "clinical" they are). The difference with the M2's, and what grabbed my attention as different from all those others, is that my thoughts are dominated by clarity and realness, not those other descriptors.
You guys have really good vocabulary...

If i like a speaker, i'll say, 'it's phreakin damn good'... and if i don't like it, i'll say , 'muddled and silly sounding speaker'...
rhed's Avatar rhed 11:01 AM 10-12-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Thanks. According to Mark, if the Amber is brightly lit, headroom is nearing it's limits. I wonder if this is the same case with the OS.. i believe these are DSP amps and it's up to the designer to set things. For example, Mark may set the Amber light to turn on when headroom is about 3dB to limit and Jeff might set it to 6dB...




HAHA... yeah, it scared me for a second. That thing is huge and heavy, and when it's moving towards you to crush your head in, it was almost impossible to move it away.. i had to snatch my head away.. i couldn't stop it marching towards the wall...

and yes, slippery floor i guess.. it's sitting on my solid wood floor..
Speaker Power has those indicators regardless of dsp or no dsp. If the amber lights does come on, it is or it's nearing it's limits. So I would treat it at that. Or we end up finding out the hard way..haha. I don't think the dsp programmer has a option when and when not to turn the amber lights on. It's like a safety light that the manufacture put in so that we don't damage our subwoofer.
Gooddoc's Avatar Gooddoc 11:03 AM 10-12-2014
^^^Yeah, but that won't help your post count

If you want to compete with RMK you need to do a lot of writing
rhed's Avatar rhed 11:04 AM 10-12-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
^^^Yeah, but that won't help your post count

If you want to compete with RMK you need to do a lot of writing
Who gives a sh!t about post count.. What are we high schoolers? Lol!
Tags: 228ht , captivator , Jtr , Jtr Noesis 212ht 212ht Lp
First ... 815  816  817 818  819  ... Last

Up
Mobile  Desktop