Official JTR speaker thread - Page 820 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #24571 of 35294 Old 10-20-2014, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post
Already was having trouble spelling JTR...
It is spelled JayTeeAre. I've seen it JayTeaAre, but that is just wrong. At least CTon is easier.
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post #24572 of 35294 Old 10-20-2014, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
I truely believe this as well. Thats why these GTG with the blind testing sound fun (though they usually have solid speakers to start with).

It's funny because there was discussion a few weeks back about some of the JTRs not having enough mid bass. I found myself listening to my system differently the next couple of days....listening.."looking" for a problem....agreeing with the comments of the lack of mid-bass. Then I realized they had sounded great for over a year and nothing had changed. People starting showing graphs of the 212 (non-LP) and it was very flat. Suddenly my mind thought there WAS enough mid-bass and suddenly I allowed myself to enjoy my speakers again and stopped "looking" for a problem.
Frohlich - based on everything I've read, (almost) all of the comments related to lack of midbass seem solely focused on the sealed versions. I am considering converting my sealed 212 HT-LPs to ported 212 HT. Either way...please enjoy your speakers...that was definitely not the intent of my posts. My intent was A, figure out my issues, and B inform others of a "potential" issue with the sealed that may or may not be an issue with others.
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post #24573 of 35294 Old 10-20-2014, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Frohlich - based on everything I've read, (almost) all of the comments related to lack of midbass seem solely focused on the sealed versions. I am considering converting my sealed 212 HT-LPs to ported 212 HT. Either way...please enjoy your speakers...that was definitely not the intent of my posts. My intent was A, figure out my issues, and B inform others of a "potential" issue with the sealed that may or may not be an issue with others.
My comments weren't aimed at your findings (notice I said non-LP version in my post)

It was more meant to show the power of the mind in hearing what it wants to hear. As soon as I had it in my mind that the my 212s (ported version) might be lacking mid-bass, that is what I started hearing. Not because it was actually there but because I started thinking its what I was suppose to be hearing. Then when several posters showed graphs of their 212 (ported version) and it was pretty much ruler flat then my mind said it was just fine in the mid bass region and suddenly I wasn't hearing the problem anymore. Nothing changed except for pre-conceived notions in my mind.

I fully realize that you have the 212 LP and measured your speakers..extensively I might add
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post #24574 of 35294 Old 10-20-2014, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
My comments weren't aimed at your findings (notice I said non-LP version in my post)

It was more meant to show the power of the mind in hearing what it wants to hear. As soon as I had it in my mind that the my 212s (ported version) might be lacking mid-bass, that is what I started hearing. Not because it was actually there but because I started thinking its what I was suppose to be hearing. Then when several posters showed graphs of their 212 (ported version) and it was pretty much ruler flat then my mind said it was just fine in the mid bass region and suddenly I wasn't hearing the problem anymore. Nothing changed except for pre-conceived notions in my mind.

I fully realize that you have the 212 LP and measured your speakers..extensively I might add
I agree on the mind...once I get it into my head that I am not happy with a speaker, I simply won't listen to it. When I was in college, I had a set of JBL 5.1s that were maybe $1000 total list price. I liked them with movies and TV but couldn't stand them with music (MTM w/ 3.5" mids) so I never listened to music with them. I've been pretty dissatisfied with my 212s for about 6 months now and haven't watched as many movies as I'd like. Hopefully I'll get things taken care of soon when I get a chance so I can get back to enjoying movies.
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post #24575 of 35294 Old 10-20-2014, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Frohlich - based on everything I've read, (almost) all of the comments related to lack of midbass seem solely focused on the sealed versions. I am considering converting my sealed 212 HT-LPs to ported 212 HT. Either way...please enjoy your speakers...that was definitely not the intent of my posts. My intent was A, figure out my issues, and B inform others of a "potential" issue with the sealed that may or may not be an issue with others.
Right on! All you need is some blow holes (don't forget to caulk) ...
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post #24576 of 35294 Old 10-20-2014, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
I agree on the mind...once I get it into my head that I am not happy with a speaker, I simply won't listen to it. When I was in college, I had a set of JBL 5.1s that were maybe $1000 total list price. I liked them with movies and TV but couldn't stand them with music (MTM w/ 3.5" mids) so I never listened to music with them. I've been pretty dissatisfied with my 212s for about 6 months now and haven't watched as many movies as I'd like. Hopefully I'll get things taken care of soon when I get a chance so I can get back to enjoying movies.
I'm the same way. Once I've zoned in on something I don't like about a speaker I don't enjoy listening anymore.

Hopefully the issue you have is fixable. If not, move on. Life's too short to listen to crappy music .
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post #24577 of 35294 Old 10-20-2014, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Then we'll just put this one down as agree to disagree. Listen, I own both the S8s and the 212s and have no plans to get rid of either...well maybe my 212s due to midbass but that is not in play here.

After reading all of the praise the S8 received on here and at one of the GTGs, I felt I had to pull a couple off the wall and try as mains and I did because I wanted to listen to them and so did Coach. If the S8s were as good as everyone was saying, I could see myself getting a few more for the bedroom as 5.1s to use as "movie" speakers and with music. So I don't understand where the bias comes in, at least with me. After hearing them as mains, even with subs, quite simply, I did not like the S8 as a main...at all...it wasn't even close. I just didn't like the tonal quality of the speaker at all. ****, I'd use my NHT IC4 in-ceiling speakers (in enclosures) as mains before the S8, even with the huge difference in dynamics. And if I had heard the S8 before the 212, I would have thought you guys full of **** and would have never ordered the 212 and wouldn't have driven anywhere for an audition. Good thing that didn't happen as I would have been missing out on some really good speakers in the 212s. To each their own.

David
lol It's all good if you don't like them but you have to admit, you are one of the very few that don't, if fact I can't think of anyone that dislikes them like you do
Also with your 212's, you are completely obsessed with the lack of midbass, like really obsessed LOL I 100% agree that when you find something you don't like, it's pretty much impossible to not be obsessed with it, that was like me with my first 72" LED DLP TV. I could see rainbows and never enjoyed the TV at all, in fact, I dreaded even watching it.

I still say you should sell them and get something else, you are never gonna be happy with them and I think you know it too. If I was you, they would have been gone 3 months ago

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #24578 of 35294 Old 10-20-2014, 03:01 PM
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Looks like I need to schedule another measuring day - 212HT-LP vs S8. See if there is a measurable difference that I think I'm hearing.

This is news to me but apparently I have more acute hearing than most, I know I can hear up to 19000Hz tones, although I'm a little less sensitive around 17000Hz than 19000Hz for some reason. Who knows, that interesting sensitivity curve in my hearing could be a major factor.

Regarding the 212s, I love the upper end and midrange so want to get them to work somehow. I really can't fit midbasses but I'll see what I can do. I'll likely see if I can get measurements from Jeff to convert my sealed speakers to ported 212s.

So I've said I really love the upper end of the 212, think the 215 needs a decent amount of EQ before it is good, and don't care for the S8 sound at all(as mains). Yep, that about sums up my JTR schizophrenia.

As far as selling the speakers, I don't want to and I don't want to lose money and I don't know of a speaker that I'd want instead. Nothing's perfect. Hopefully I can get the 212s working for me, if not, I'll live with them until I find something better...which I haven't heard yet.
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post #24579 of 35294 Old 10-20-2014, 03:35 PM
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I still think you might LOVE the sm60f's in their current config, as the top end on those is sweet. Clean to 24khz, not anywhere the same as the fiddys which roll a little earlier. Midbass is certainly not lacking either, even though they are just two 8's instead of 12's.

Dang Reef, I didn't know you weren't that big of a fan of the 50's in my HT, that's the first time I think you have mentioned that
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post #24580 of 35294 Old 10-20-2014, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Looks like I need to schedule another measuring day - 212HT-LP vs S8. See if there is a measurable difference that I think I'm hearing.

This is news to me but apparently I have more acute hearing than most, I know I can hear up to 19000Hz tones, although I'm a little less sensitive around 17000Hz than 19000Hz for some reason. Who knows, that interesting sensitivity curve in my hearing could be a major factor.

Regarding the 212s, I love the upper end and midrange so want to get them to work somehow. I really can't fit midbasses but I'll see what I can do. I'll likely see if I can get measurements from Jeff to convert my sealed speakers to ported 212s.

So I've said I really love the upper end of the 212, think the 215 needs a decent amount of EQ before it is good, and don't care for the S8 sound at all(as mains). Yep, that about sums up my JTR schizophrenia.

As far as selling the speakers, I don't want to and I don't want to lose money and I don't know of a speaker that I'd want instead. Nothing's perfect. Hopefully I can get the 212s working for me, if not, I'll live with them until I find something better...which I haven't heard yet.
Have you compared the non lp 212? Or maybe see if Jeff would let you trade in to try?
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post #24581 of 35294 Old 10-20-2014, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
I still think you might LOVE the sm60f's in their current config, as the top end on those is sweet. Clean to 24khz, not anywhere the same as the fiddys which roll a little earlier. Midbass is certainly not lacking either, even though they are just two 8's instead of 12's.

Dang Reef, I didn't know you weren't that big of a fan of the 50's in my HT, that's the first time I think you have mentioned that
I'd love to hear them but likely won't go out of my way to hear them.
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post #24582 of 35294 Old 10-20-2014, 04:51 PM
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Have you compared the non lp 212? Or maybe see if Jeff would let you trade in to try?
I have not heard the ported 212. I think I'm just going to turn my sealed 212 into a ported 212 if Jeff will give me the measurements. I have the woodworking ability and my 212s are bare as I bought them to veneer myself but haven't yet.
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post #24583 of 35294 Old 10-20-2014, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
I still think you might LOVE the sm60f's in their current config, as the top end on those is sweet. Clean to 24khz, not anywhere the same as the fiddys which roll a little earlier. Midbass is certainly not lacking either, even though they are just two 8's instead of 12's.

Dang Reef, I didn't know you weren't that big of a fan of the 50's in my HT, that's the first time I think you have mentioned that
@beastaudio Well to be honest I was excited to hear them as it was the first shot I had at hearing them. I will use the term and hate to use it, but they seemed "laid back" than that of the SM60's.They just did not seem to have that sparkle that I had heard at the Heavyweight GTG that I liked. I know when we compared yours to the 212's inn your HT, I definitely liked the 212's better, bad polarity and all Don't get me wrong, I liked them, what's not to like, however I had found that the second time I heard them at the Mini GTG back in the summer that I really liked the fiddies allot more, but still did not have that pop that grabbed me like that of the SM60F's had?

I know someday I would like to get another pair of SM60's or the rumored SM60HT's that have been mentioned a few times and run them for a couple of months and see if I can get that magic back that I had heard. Still one of the best speaker demo's I have ever heard. Presently I am very happy with the 215's right now, it is going to be some time before I change up, I am just hoping it is not December 7th

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post #24584 of 35294 Old 10-20-2014, 06:09 PM
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@Reefdvr27 .....

Oh boy, you don't want to listen to the M2's. Seriously...
Where's the damn yawn smilie when you need it? ...

Ahh there it is:
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post #24585 of 35294 Old 10-20-2014, 06:41 PM
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I have not heard the ported 212. I think I'm just going to turn my sealed 212 into a ported 212 if Jeff will give me the measurements. I have the woodworking ability and my 212s are bare as I bought them to veneer myself but haven't yet.

Very bold.

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post #24586 of 35294 Old 10-20-2014, 06:46 PM
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@beastaudio Well to be honest I was excited to hear them as it was the first shot I had at hearing them. I will use the term and hate to use it, but they seemed "laid back" than that of the SM60's.They just did not seem to have that sparkle that I had heard at the Heavyweight GTG that I liked. I know when we compared yours to the 212's inn your HT, I definitely liked the 212's better, bad polarity and all Don't get me wrong, I liked them, what's not to like, however I had found that the second time I heard them at the Mini GTG back in the summer that I really liked the fiddies allot more, but still did not have that pop that grabbed me like that of the SM60F's had?

I know someday I would like to get another pair of SM60's or the rumored SM60HT's that have been mentioned a few times and run them for a couple of months and see if I can get that magic back that I had heard. Still one of the best speaker demo's I have ever heard. Presently I am very happy with the 215's right now, it is going to be some time before I change up, I am just hoping it is not December 7th
Perhaps the 7th will be your day of bank account infamy and you want to order a set of M2's. It is the 73rd anniversary of Pearl Harbor.

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post #24587 of 35294 Old 10-20-2014, 08:20 PM
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Perhaps the 7th will be your day of bank account infamy and you want to order a set of M2's. It is the 73rd anniversary of Pearl Harbor.
Doubtful. It's a blinded GTG and without expectation bias the M2 will lose its advantage.
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post #24588 of 35294 Old 10-20-2014, 10:33 PM
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Doubtful. It's a blinded GTG and without expectation bias the M2 will lose its advantage.
That, was a remarkably candid statement ...

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post #24589 of 35294 Old 10-21-2014, 01:35 AM
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Then we'll just put this one down as agree to disagree. Listen, I own both the S8s and the 212s and have no plans to get rid of either...well maybe my 212s due to midbass but that is not in play here.

After reading all of the praise the S8 received on here and at one of the GTGs, I felt I had to pull a couple off the wall and try as mains and I did because I wanted to listen to them and so did Coach. If the S8s were as good as everyone was saying, I could see myself getting a few more for the bedroom as 5.1s to use as "movie" speakers and with music. So I don't understand where the bias comes in, at least with me. After hearing them as mains, even with subs, quite simply, I did not like the S8 as a main...at all...it wasn't even close. I just didn't like the tonal quality of the speaker at all. ****, I'd use my NHT IC4 in-ceiling speakers (in enclosures) as mains before the S8, even with the huge difference in dynamics. And if I had heard the S8 before the 212, I would have thought you guys full of **** and would have never ordered the 212 and wouldn't have driven anywhere for an audition. Good thing that didn't happen as I would have been missing out on some really good speakers in the 212s. To each their own.

David
I agree with you David,

I had the same experience as you did with the S8s. I ordered it from the rave reviews it got. In fact, i have heard a couple ppl say they couldn't tell much difference between the S8s and the 212s.

Here's a very logical question. If you can't really tell the difference between the S8 and the 212s, then why not just buy the S8s and be done with it? Why spend 3 times the amount for a 212??

In fact, the psychological argument is the exact opposite for me. I got the S8 fully expecting it to sound if not exactly, very close to the 212s, and when i switched out the 212s with the S8s as LCR, it was truly a shocking difference. If i was biased to begin with, i would have been expecting it to sound 'as good'... There is absolutely no way i would be happy with the S8s as LCR under any circumstances. However ,as surround duty, they excel for that job. They are dynamic and can almost follow with the 212s.

Anyways, I hate to get into these kind of arguments. You either can hear a difference or you can't. No one's lying here.
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post #24590 of 35294 Old 10-21-2014, 07:22 AM
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The Wilson room was just down the hall from the JTR room at RMAF. Here is the Stereophile review of that room: In Another Class Entirely. The room gear is listed at $548,483 with $227,280 of that being in cables! Each JTR 215RT has the output capability of 3-4 Watchdog subs (depending on amplification) which cost $9,800 each (plus $4,000 each for The Controller ). So, two JTR 215RT's equal around $82,800-$110,400 worth of Wilson subs. Also, the Wilson subs are 85 dB efficient. Total cost for the JTR room was only around $28,000.
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post #24591 of 35294 Old 10-21-2014, 07:55 AM
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The Wilson room was just down the hall from the JTR room at RMAF. Here is the Stereophile review of that room: In Another Class Entirely. The room gear is listed at $548,483 with $227,280 of that being in cables! Each JTR 215RT has the output capability of 3-4 Watchdog subs (depending on amplification) which cost $9,800 each (plus $4,000 each for The Controller ). So, two JTR 215RT's equal around $82,800-$110,400 worth of Wilson subs. Also, the Wilson subs are 85 dB efficient. Total cost for the JTR room was only around $28,000.
That review was soo un-Stereophile. The reviewer refrained from the usual hyperbolic and grandiose descriptions of the equipment and sound, while giving a straight forward and sterile review of the room and equipment that was summed up in a single sentence. I'm sure the Wilson people were not happy with the brevity and nearly dismissive tone taken by the reviewer.

Quote:
"The female voice sounded natural and evenly balanced"
Hey, ... wait a minute

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post #24592 of 35294 Old 10-21-2014, 08:13 AM
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Read the Wilson Audio report. BS is sooooo organic.
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post #24593 of 35294 Old 10-21-2014, 08:28 AM
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I'll come in and say I'm not a tremendous fan of the single s8 for mains use in stock form either. I find it too bright without eq. It can go silly loud, and excels as a surround speaker, and I'm confident it'd be fine as mains with subs and eq knocking off the top frequencies a notch or two, but out of the box, I don't like it nearly as much as the Noesis. I've heard them in several rooms, and played as mains on two occasions in two different rooms. Some people like them as mains out of the box. Yet again everyone's ears are different.

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post #24594 of 35294 Old 10-21-2014, 10:06 AM
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The Wilson room was just down the hall from the JTR room at RMAF. Here is the Stereophile review of that room: In Another Class Entirely. The room gear is listed at $548,483 with $227,280 of that being in cables! Each JTR 215RT has the output capability of 3-4 Watchdog subs (depending on amplification) which cost $9,800 each (plus $4,000 each for The Controller ). So, two JTR 215RT's equal around $82,800-$110,400 worth of Wilson subs. Also, the Wilson subs are 85 dB efficient. Total cost for the JTR room was only around $28,000.
I think if you guys had used the Transparent audio cables costing $108,630, Stereophile might have paid more attention to the JTR room.
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post #24595 of 35294 Old 10-21-2014, 10:34 AM
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Perhaps the 7th will be your day of bank account infamy and you want to order a set of M2's. It is the 73rd anniversary of Pearl Harbor.
Yeah that would be fun to do, but I am pretty happy with my 212's and 215's. I have heard allot of speakers now, but at the end of the day in my space and my ears just like the top end of the JayTeeAre's I know there are speakers that will give me the urge, but I am done for awhile. Next upgrade will be a new Atmos AVR or Pre/Pro. I also seen Marantz is going to add Auro 3D, so gotta sit back and wait for all this new tech to become standard.
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post #24596 of 35294 Old 10-21-2014, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
Yeah that would be fun to do, but I am pretty happy with my 212's and 215's. I have heard allot of speakers now, but at the end of the day in my space and my ears just like the top end of the JayTeeAre's I know there are speakers that will give me the urge, but I am done for awhile. Next upgrade will be a new Atmos AVR or Pre/Pro. I also seen Marantz is going to add Auro 3D, so gotta sit back and wait for all this new tech to become standard.
The auro 3d firmware will be an add-on cost, but even if you're OK paying $200-300 extra for that, the connections on the av are not optimized for auro, but for atmos. i.e., for auro, the vog (voice of god, placed overhead) channel will be run off one of the sub outs.

I think if anyone is considering auro 3d, then wait until av hardware integrates better with auro software (and licensing worked into av cost).
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post #24597 of 35294 Old 10-21-2014, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
Yeah that would be fun to do, but I am pretty happy with my 212's and 215's. I have heard allot of speakers now, but at the end of the day in my space and my ears just like the top end of the JayTeeAre's I know there are speakers that will give me the urge, but I am done for awhile. Next upgrade will be a new Atmos AVR or Pre/Pro. I also seen Marantz is going to add Auro 3D, so gotta sit back and wait for all this new tech to become standard.
I pulled the trigger on the Marantz AV7702. Will keep you posted.
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post #24598 of 35294 Old 10-21-2014, 11:34 AM
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I'll come in and say I'm not a tremendous fan of the single s8 for mains use in stock form either. I find it too bright without eq. It can go silly loud, and excels as a surround speaker, and I'm confident it'd be fine as mains with subs and eq knocking off the top frequencies a notch or two, but out of the box, I don't like it nearly as much as the Noesis. I've heard them in several rooms, and played as mains on two occasions in two different rooms. Some people like them as mains out of the box. Yet again everyone's ears are different.
I don't find that the S8's are that bright at all. I know when we did the single coaxial comparison back in January, I felt Brandon's Beastclops were the brightest, the Eminence 8's the least dynamic and warmer and the S8's the middle of the road. Not overly bright, but still had nice dynamics to them. If I was to choose any of the 3 for mains, I would have chosen the Beastclops as I really like a brighter dynamic speaker. However for surround duty, I just love the Single 8's. I think it was the new Xmen movie, there is a scene where they are playing pingpong and my wife was amazed at how real the ping pong ball sounded. She said it was like they were playing right in front of her, I will say I thought it was cool too. Great movie by the way. I picked up Snowpiercer today. I thought I had heard RMK say it was pretty good awhile back?. That is on deck. I also picked up Ghost Busters 1 and 2. I have not seen those movies in years, for $14 bucks for both movies in the special packing, why not?
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post #24599 of 35294 Old 10-21-2014, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post
The auro 3d firmware will be an add-on cost, but even if you're OK paying $200-300 extra for that, the connections on the av are not optimized for auro, but for atmos. i.e., for auro, the vog (voice of god, placed overhead) channel will be run off one of the sub outs.

I think if anyone is considering auro 3d, then wait until av hardware integrates better with auro software (and licensing worked into av cost).
Like I said I will wait till all this stuff is built in. I am no hurry, my 4520 is great and not to mention that 7.2 sounds good enough for me right now. I don't know how true it is, but on the home page they have an article and I think I had read that there is no content yet, but some movies have the content on the disc, but not labeled.
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post #24600 of 35294 Old 10-21-2014, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
I'll come in and say I'm not a tremendous fan of the single s8 for mains use in stock form either. I find it too bright without eq. It can go silly loud, and excels as a surround speaker, and I'm confident it'd be fine as mains with subs and eq knocking off the top frequencies a notch or two, but out of the box, I don't like it nearly as much as the Noesis. I've heard them in several rooms, and played as mains on two occasions in two different rooms. Some people like them as mains out of the box. Yet again everyone's ears are different.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
I don't find that the S8's are that bright at all. I know when we did the single coaxial comparison back in January, I felt Brandon's Beastclops were the brightest, the Eminence 8's the least dynamic and warmer and the S8's the middle of the road. Not overly bright, but still had nice dynamics to them. If I was to choose any of the 3 for mains, I would have chosen the Beastclops as I really like a brighter dynamic speaker. However for surround duty, I just love the Single 8's. I think it was the new Xmen movie, there is a scene where they are playing pingpong and my wife was amazed at how real the ping pong ball sounded. She said it was like they were playing right in front of her, I will say I thought it was cool too. Great movie by the way. I picked up Snowpiercer today. I thought I had heard RMK say it was pretty good awhile back?. That is on deck. I also picked up Ghost Busters 1 and 2. I have not seen those movies in years, for $14 bucks for both movies in the special packing, why not?
Forgot about that one. Make it three times in three rooms
HuskerOmaha, dlbeck, and gorilla83

I thought all the of those speakers would work fine for surround sound. All three were brighter than my preference. (Without eq)

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