Official JTR speaker thread - Page 823 - AVS Forum
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post #24661 of 26415 Old 10-19-2014, 05:37 PM
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Got an email back from jeff

he says I don't have enough money for him to caulk my blowhole. Im wondering if he misunderstood me
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post #24662 of 26415 Old 10-19-2014, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
I still love this video, he might try Rob.

Blow hole LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXEMjxocFn8

Caulk is the new duct tape [emoji1]

I want my 5 minutes back Reef!
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post #24663 of 26415 Old 10-20-2014, 01:15 AM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Actually, let me step back. I first noticed the difference at Coach's house that I thought they sounded different. I went home and fired up the 212s and thought, wow, I really like the 212 upper end a hell of a lot more than the 215. I mentioned that to Coach and he said they do sound different than he remembered and this was the first time he started to doubt getting the 215s. Then I brought the 212 over and by that time he had the Cat12s to audition so we were able to hear all 3 of them back to back. The Cat12 and 212 were pretty close on the upper end with the 215 much more laid back (almost veiled). The 212 was a little more detailed in music than the Cat12 but I haven't heard any music on the Cat12 since they were professionally calibrated. When comparing the midbass of the 3, the midbass of the 212 SEALED was not even in the same league as the other 2, even when crossed at the same 80 Hz. That was even more glaring than the difference of the 215 top end compared to the 212. This is all without EQ.
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
You are just one of those very fortunate "golden ear" individuals that can hear the slightest tonal differences. With your canine grade hearing these tiny differences seem significant. We mortals simply stand in your shadow.
I believe a lot of 'vastly differences' in perception, especially when comparing 2 speakers between different people can be explained by each hearing acuity..

For instance, some people thinks there's not much difference between the S8s and the 212s when playing movies. To me and many others, it's literally light and day difference.

By brother couldn't tell the difference between my 212s and his $100 Pro Speakers he got from the street. To me, his speakers sounds really harsh, exactly like the ones they used in discos. (In his case, he's worked in clubs most of his life and his hearing loss is probably significant)... and people who likes listening to music above reference all their life could also be suffering similar hearing loss.

The problem with hearing loss is that 'to you', or 'to the person involved', their hearing is 100%... it's only when comparing in relative to someone else that you know your hearing isn't as good.

Anyways, that's why I take speaker comparisons and reviews with a grain of salt.. I also categorize the reviewers into categories of people who i know have 'hearing loss' if they say speakers A and B sounds almost the same when there's a huge gap between them...
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post #24664 of 26415 Old 10-20-2014, 01:48 AM
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Anyone use ICEpower amps on the JTR? Good or bad? I'm just a little worried about potential hiss which someone has with wyred4sound amp.
http://www.ghentaudio.com/amp/ga-s250p.html << Is the price OK?
http://www.minidsp.com/products/plate-amplifiers/pwr-ice250 << cheap but OK?
Crown Comtech CT475 or CT875. 110dB SNR, 25dB voltage gain. << Seems like the best?

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post #24665 of 26415 Old 10-20-2014, 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post
Anyone use ICEpower amps on the JTR? Good or bad? I'm just a little worried about potential hiss which someone has with wyred4sound amp.
http://www.ghentaudio.com/amp/ga-s250p.html << Is the price OK?

I know that N8DOGG and RMK have both used Wyred4S amps, well I know Rob did. Maybe Nate used the D-sonic, either way both have stated that they worked great for them. And I have got a quote from that seller before, he use to list on Audiogon.com but I haven't seen him list his amps for a while. I was going to get one actually before I bought my Sherbourn PA 7-350.


It also looks like he's raised his prices from what I remember.

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post #24666 of 26415 Old 10-20-2014, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post
Anyone use ICEpower amps on the JTR? Good or bad? I'm just a little worried about potential hiss which someone has with wyred4sound amp.
http://www.ghentaudio.com/amp/ga-s250p.html << Is the price OK?
http://www.minidsp.com/products/plate-amplifiers/pwr-ice250 << cheap but OK?
Crown Comtech CT475 or CT875. 110dB SNR, 25dB voltage gain. << Seems like the best?
When I first received the W4S it had a pronounced hiss from the LCR's with the Triple 12's and then Noesis 212's. I used cheater plugs and later, due to changing out components and wiring new circuits, the hiss went away as did the cheater plugs. IMO, it is a ground loop issue and can only be mitigated by gain control on the amp or resolved by fixing the ground problem. I think Archaea did a thread on resolving ground loop issues.

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post #24667 of 26415 Old 10-20-2014, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
For instance, some people thinks there's not much difference between the S8s and the 212s when playing movies. To me and many others, it's literally light and day difference.
Good post. I'm one of those that think there is a night and day difference between the S8 and 212 but most on here seem to say the "S8 is great for what it is." If it is a surround, I agree completely that it is great and dynamic. If used as mains, even temporarily, I'd go back to regular dome, less dynamic speakers quickly.
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post #24668 of 26415 Old 10-20-2014, 09:08 AM
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John Atkinson of Stereophile stopped by the room at RMAF:



Quote:
Another new name to me at the 2014 RMAF was JTR Speakers of Oconomowoc, WI, who were demming these large towers with a Lynx front-end and J River Media Center, with power conditioning provided by a Torus transformer. Costing $7000/pair, the speaker combines two 15" woofers crossing over at 350Hz to a square midrange horn with a tweeter at its throat handling frequencies above 6.8kHz. Female voice on a Chesky sampler sounded natural and evenly balanced. Sitting in the hot seat in this room, BTW, is renowned amplifier designer Bob Cordell, whom I seemed to be following around the final day of the show. Bob is working a new edition of his 2011 Designing Audio Power Amplifiers textbook for McGraw Hill. In vain did I complain to Bob that I haven’t yet finished reading the first edition!
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post #24669 of 26415 Old 10-20-2014, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
I believe a lot of 'vastly differences' in perception, especially when comparing 2 speakers between different people can be explained by each hearing acuity..

For instance, some people thinks there's not much difference between the S8s and the 212s when playing movies. To me and many others, it's literally light and day difference.

By brother couldn't tell the difference between my 212s and his $100 Pro Speakers he got from the street. To me, his speakers sounds really harsh, exactly like the ones they used in discos. (In his case, he's worked in clubs most of his life and his hearing loss is probably significant)... and people who likes listening to music above reference all their life could also be suffering similar hearing loss.

The problem with hearing loss is that 'to you', or 'to the person involved', their hearing is 100%... it's only when comparing in relative to someone else that you know your hearing isn't as good.

Anyways, that's why I take speaker comparisons and reviews with a grain of salt.. I also categorize the reviewers into categories of people who i know have 'hearing loss' if they say speakers A and B sounds almost the same when there's a huge gap between them...
I went to an Audiologist this year and my hearing is quite good for someone my age. The caveat is due to "normal" loss of the highest frequencies as a result of age. I can only clearly hear a 12Khz test tone and actually that is good for my age. I have no Tinnitus and have not had prolonged exposure to loud noise during my life.

I think what you interpret as large (night or light and day) differences is where you loose me in this discussion. I think that a true double blind test would probably surprise you and expose a bias that you didn't know existed. I'm certain you don't agree just as I have issue with your huge differences comments above. I actually ran a Slanted 8 as my Center channel for over a month and I was surprised how good it sounded. It isn't capable of the SPL's the Triple 12's or Noesis are, but within their performance range they sound really good. I believe that watching movies at normal listening levels (say -12db ref) and with subwoofer support they would be indistinguishable from the T12's and perhaps even the Noesis for most folks. To me, that is a small difference.

As is often the case, the "truth" probably lies somewhere in the middle of these differing subjective opinions ...
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post #24670 of 26415 Old 10-20-2014, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
John Atkinson of Stereophile stopped by the room at RMAF:

That's it? The female voice sounded natural and evenly balanced? A man of few words
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post #24671 of 26415 Old 10-20-2014, 11:20 AM
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That's it? The female voice sounded natural and evenly balanced? A man of few words
Yeah, man of few words and original thoughts ...

There's no one more firmly entrenched in Audiophilia than those old Stereophile guys.
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post #24672 of 26415 Old 10-20-2014, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Yeah, man of few words and original thoughts ...

There's no one more firmly entrenched in Audiophilia than those old Stereophile guys.
Let's see, maybe I can review at Sterophile. "The 215's are very fluid and smooth and produce a very good accurate, but very deep bass" Well, how did I do?


No offense DD for you link, just having some fun I have been waiting to read a really good review of the 215's, but have not really read anything. I mean there are really no solid write ups yet? I have seen quite a few pics and description of the speakers, but nothing about the speaker?

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post #24673 of 26415 Old 10-20-2014, 11:56 AM
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Im 100% with Rob on this one. I get me hearing tested every 6 months at work and I have excellent hearing, there is less than 5% hearing loss in either ear. I agree if you put both speakerw in an A/B setting, perceptions would be very different. You are looking at the small speakers and expecting it to not sound as good.

While I agree everyone hears differently, I also think the Bias plays a 90% roll in what we like and dont like. I had my mind blown last week when hearing a powered monoprice monitor at a friends place. Not knowing what speaker was playing I sat down and just listened... 180$ a pair 5" powered monoprice speakers.. they were really good. I Bet if I would have seen the monoprice sticker, I would have thought differently. Since I threw my airmotiv 5s in the trash a few months ago, Ive been wanting another powered monitor.. I bought a set of the monoprice speakers for my PC and could be happier! (As well as a mirage s10 for dirt cheap)
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post #24674 of 26415 Old 10-20-2014, 11:59 AM
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Let's see, maybe I can review at Sterophile. "The 215's are very fluid and smooth and produce a very good accurate, but very deep bass" Well, how did I do?
Not even close, here are some actual Atkinson quotes. His reviews are littered with words like profound, astonishing, unsurpassed, or how about these:

Quote:
It is this acceleration of aural intensity which produces a kind of rapture in the music-lover
Quote:
there was such an absence of spuriae that recorded detail was more readily perceived
Man ... now thats salesmanship ... and we all know that JTR speakers are just loaded to the brim with "spuriae"

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post #24675 of 26415 Old 10-20-2014, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
My question is, what speakers did you like the best. I mean not being biased, what would you say was the best sounding speaker in show? I know you said the 215, but if the 215 was not there, what would it be? I was surprised that the 215's did not get most dynamic. I know I read a few different reviews and I have them all mixed up, but I read one guy gave an A+, but at the end gave 2 stars? I think it was the same fella?
I finally just read Tyson and Pez's Best in show!!! report. It is mostly Pez's picks since Tyson was sick for Saturday and Sunday. They take the best speakers (A+) they heard at the show and then rank the top ones. So, the 2 stars is just a fine line delineation among the best.

I appreciate John Atkinson taking the time to stop by the room. I had sent him a PM on another forum and he gave me some great advice about RMAF.
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post #24676 of 26415 Old 10-20-2014, 12:08 PM
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I don't have a clue what that is in the first place...

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post #24677 of 26415 Old 10-20-2014, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
I went to an Audiologist this year and my hearing is quite good for someone my age. The caveat is due to "normal" loss of the highest frequencies as a result of age. I can only clearly hear a 12Khz test tone and actually that is good for my age. I have no Tinnitus and have not had prolonged exposure to loud noise during my life.

I think what you interpret as large (night or light and day) differences is where you loose me in this discussion. I think that a true double blind test would probably surprise you and expose a bias that you didn't know existed. I'm certain you don't agree just as I have issue with your huge differences comments above. I actually ran a Slanted 8 as my Center channel for over a month and I was surprised how good it sounded. It isn't capable of the SPL's the Triple 12's or Noesis are, but within their performance range they sound really good. I believe that watching movies at normal listening levels (say -12db ref) and with subwoofer support they would be indistinguishable from the T12's and perhaps even the Noesis for most folks. To me, that is a small difference.

As is often the case, the "truth" probably lies somewhere in the middle of these differing subjective opinions ...
Oh man, and you've got the M2 audition in a week or so, right? Heck, I didn't know you were deaf! Age appropriate eh? I Didn't know you were a Centenarian!




Hehe, J/k. Couldn't pass that up
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post #24678 of 26415 Old 10-20-2014, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
Im 100% with Rob on this one. I get me hearing tested every 6 months at work and I have excellent hearing, there is less than 5% hearing loss in either ear. I agree if you put both speakerw in an A/B setting, perceptions would be very different. You are looking at the small speakers and expecting it to not sound as good.

While I agree everyone hears differently, I also think the Bias plays a 90% roll in what we like and dont like. I had my mind blown last week when hearing a powered monoprice monitor at a friends place. Not knowing what speaker was playing I sat down and just listened... 180$ a pair 5" powered monoprice speakers.. they were really good. I Bet if I would have seen the monoprice sticker, I would have thought differently. Since I threw my airmotiv 5s in the trash a few months ago, Ive been wanting another powered monitor.. I bought a set of the monoprice speakers for my PC and could be happier! (As well as a mirage s10 for dirt cheap)
I truely believe this as well. Thats why these GTG with the blind testing sound fun (though they usually have solid speakers to start with).

It's funny because there was discussion a few weeks back about some of the JTRs not having enough mid bass. I found myself listening to my system differently the next couple of days....listening.."looking" for a problem....agreeing with the comments of the lack of mid-bass. Then I realized they had sounded great for over a year and nothing had changed. People starting showing graphs of the 212 (non-LP) and it was very flat. Suddenly my mind thought there WAS enough mid-bass and suddenly I allowed myself to enjoy my speakers again and stopped "looking" for a problem.
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post #24679 of 26415 Old 10-20-2014, 12:47 PM
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Oh man, and you've got the M2 audition in a week or so, right? Heck, I didn't know you were deaf! Age appropriate eh? I Didn't know you were a Centenarian!
Luckily, both JBL dealers are ADA compliant so I will be able to access using my mobility scooter. Of course "can you please turn it up?" will be the question du jour closely followed by "are the woofers playing?".
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post #24680 of 26415 Old 10-20-2014, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Not even close, here are some actual Atkinson quotes. His reviews are littered with words like profound, astonishing, unsurpassed, or how about these:





Man ... now thats salesmanship ... and we all know that JTR speakers are just loaded to the brim with "spuriae"
Already was having trouble spelling JTR...now I need a dictionary to stay.
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post #24681 of 26415 Old 10-20-2014, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
Im 100% with Rob on this one. I get me hearing tested every 6 months at work and I have excellent hearing, there is less than 5% hearing loss in either ear. I agree if you put both speakerw in an A/B setting, perceptions would be very different. You are looking at the small speakers and expecting it to not sound as good.

While I agree everyone hears differently, I also think the Bias plays a 90% roll in what we like and dont like. I had my mind blown last week when hearing a powered monoprice monitor at a friends place. Not knowing what speaker was playing I sat down and just listened... 180$ a pair 5" powered monoprice speakers.. they were really good. I Bet if I would have seen the monoprice sticker, I would have thought differently. Since I threw my airmotiv 5s in the trash a few months ago, Ive been wanting another powered monitor.. I bought a set of the monoprice speakers for my PC and could be happier! (As well as a mirage s10 for dirt cheap)
Then we'll just put this one down as agree to disagree. Listen, I own both the S8s and the 212s and have no plans to get rid of either...well maybe my 212s due to midbass but that is not in play here.

After reading all of the praise the S8 received on here and at one of the GTGs, I felt I had to pull a couple off the wall and try as mains and I did because I wanted to listen to them and so did Coach. If the S8s were as good as everyone was saying, I could see myself getting a few more for the bedroom as 5.1s to use as "movie" speakers and with music. So I don't understand where the bias comes in, at least with me. After hearing them as mains, even with subs, quite simply, I did not like the S8 as a main...at all...it wasn't even close. I just didn't like the tonal quality of the speaker at all. ****, I'd use my NHT IC4 in-ceiling speakers (in enclosures) as mains before the S8, even with the huge difference in dynamics. And if I had heard the S8 before the 212, I would have thought you guys full of **** and would have never ordered the 212 and wouldn't have driven anywhere for an audition. Good thing that didn't happen as I would have been missing out on some really good speakers in the 212s. To each their own.

David
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post #24682 of 26415 Old 10-20-2014, 01:50 PM
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Already was having trouble spelling JTR...
It is spelled JayTeeAre. I've seen it JayTeaAre, but that is just wrong. At least CTon is easier.
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post #24683 of 26415 Old 10-20-2014, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
I truely believe this as well. Thats why these GTG with the blind testing sound fun (though they usually have solid speakers to start with).

It's funny because there was discussion a few weeks back about some of the JTRs not having enough mid bass. I found myself listening to my system differently the next couple of days....listening.."looking" for a problem....agreeing with the comments of the lack of mid-bass. Then I realized they had sounded great for over a year and nothing had changed. People starting showing graphs of the 212 (non-LP) and it was very flat. Suddenly my mind thought there WAS enough mid-bass and suddenly I allowed myself to enjoy my speakers again and stopped "looking" for a problem.
Frohlich - based on everything I've read, (almost) all of the comments related to lack of midbass seem solely focused on the sealed versions. I am considering converting my sealed 212 HT-LPs to ported 212 HT. Either way...please enjoy your speakers...that was definitely not the intent of my posts. My intent was A, figure out my issues, and B inform others of a "potential" issue with the sealed that may or may not be an issue with others.
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post #24684 of 26415 Old 10-20-2014, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Frohlich - based on everything I've read, (almost) all of the comments related to lack of midbass seem solely focused on the sealed versions. I am considering converting my sealed 212 HT-LPs to ported 212 HT. Either way...please enjoy your speakers...that was definitely not the intent of my posts. My intent was A, figure out my issues, and B inform others of a "potential" issue with the sealed that may or may not be an issue with others.
My comments weren't aimed at your findings (notice I said non-LP version in my post)

It was more meant to show the power of the mind in hearing what it wants to hear. As soon as I had it in my mind that the my 212s (ported version) might be lacking mid-bass, that is what I started hearing. Not because it was actually there but because I started thinking its what I was suppose to be hearing. Then when several posters showed graphs of their 212 (ported version) and it was pretty much ruler flat then my mind said it was just fine in the mid bass region and suddenly I wasn't hearing the problem anymore. Nothing changed except for pre-conceived notions in my mind.

I fully realize that you have the 212 LP and measured your speakers..extensively I might add
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post #24685 of 26415 Old 10-20-2014, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
My comments weren't aimed at your findings (notice I said non-LP version in my post)

It was more meant to show the power of the mind in hearing what it wants to hear. As soon as I had it in my mind that the my 212s (ported version) might be lacking mid-bass, that is what I started hearing. Not because it was actually there but because I started thinking its what I was suppose to be hearing. Then when several posters showed graphs of their 212 (ported version) and it was pretty much ruler flat then my mind said it was just fine in the mid bass region and suddenly I wasn't hearing the problem anymore. Nothing changed except for pre-conceived notions in my mind.

I fully realize that you have the 212 LP and measured your speakers..extensively I might add
I agree on the mind...once I get it into my head that I am not happy with a speaker, I simply won't listen to it. When I was in college, I had a set of JBL 5.1s that were maybe $1000 total list price. I liked them with movies and TV but couldn't stand them with music (MTM w/ 3.5" mids) so I never listened to music with them. I've been pretty dissatisfied with my 212s for about 6 months now and haven't watched as many movies as I'd like. Hopefully I'll get things taken care of soon when I get a chance so I can get back to enjoying movies.
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post #24686 of 26415 Old 10-20-2014, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Frohlich - based on everything I've read, (almost) all of the comments related to lack of midbass seem solely focused on the sealed versions. I am considering converting my sealed 212 HT-LPs to ported 212 HT. Either way...please enjoy your speakers...that was definitely not the intent of my posts. My intent was A, figure out my issues, and B inform others of a "potential" issue with the sealed that may or may not be an issue with others.
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post #24687 of 26415 Old 10-20-2014, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
I agree on the mind...once I get it into my head that I am not happy with a speaker, I simply won't listen to it. When I was in college, I had a set of JBL 5.1s that were maybe $1000 total list price. I liked them with movies and TV but couldn't stand them with music (MTM w/ 3.5" mids) so I never listened to music with them. I've been pretty dissatisfied with my 212s for about 6 months now and haven't watched as many movies as I'd like. Hopefully I'll get things taken care of soon when I get a chance so I can get back to enjoying movies.
I'm the same way. Once I've zoned in on something I don't like about a speaker I don't enjoy listening anymore.

Hopefully the issue you have is fixable. If not, move on. Life's too short to listen to crappy music .
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post #24688 of 26415 Old 10-20-2014, 03:06 PM
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Then we'll just put this one down as agree to disagree. Listen, I own both the S8s and the 212s and have no plans to get rid of either...well maybe my 212s due to midbass but that is not in play here.

After reading all of the praise the S8 received on here and at one of the GTGs, I felt I had to pull a couple off the wall and try as mains and I did because I wanted to listen to them and so did Coach. If the S8s were as good as everyone was saying, I could see myself getting a few more for the bedroom as 5.1s to use as "movie" speakers and with music. So I don't understand where the bias comes in, at least with me. After hearing them as mains, even with subs, quite simply, I did not like the S8 as a main...at all...it wasn't even close. I just didn't like the tonal quality of the speaker at all. ****, I'd use my NHT IC4 in-ceiling speakers (in enclosures) as mains before the S8, even with the huge difference in dynamics. And if I had heard the S8 before the 212, I would have thought you guys full of **** and would have never ordered the 212 and wouldn't have driven anywhere for an audition. Good thing that didn't happen as I would have been missing out on some really good speakers in the 212s. To each their own.

David
lol It's all good if you don't like them but you have to admit, you are one of the very few that don't, if fact I can't think of anyone that dislikes them like you do
Also with your 212's, you are completely obsessed with the lack of midbass, like really obsessed LOL I 100% agree that when you find something you don't like, it's pretty much impossible to not be obsessed with it, that was like me with my first 72" LED DLP TV. I could see rainbows and never enjoyed the TV at all, in fact, I dreaded even watching it.

I still say you should sell them and get something else, you are never gonna be happy with them and I think you know it too. If I was you, they would have been gone 3 months ago

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post #24689 of 26415 Old 10-20-2014, 04:01 PM
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Looks like I need to schedule another measuring day - 212HT-LP vs S8. See if there is a measurable difference that I think I'm hearing.

This is news to me but apparently I have more acute hearing than most, I know I can hear up to 19000Hz tones, although I'm a little less sensitive around 17000Hz than 19000Hz for some reason. Who knows, that interesting sensitivity curve in my hearing could be a major factor.

Regarding the 212s, I love the upper end and midrange so want to get them to work somehow. I really can't fit midbasses but I'll see what I can do. I'll likely see if I can get measurements from Jeff to convert my sealed speakers to ported 212s.

So I've said I really love the upper end of the 212, think the 215 needs a decent amount of EQ before it is good, and don't care for the S8 sound at all(as mains). Yep, that about sums up my JTR schizophrenia.

As far as selling the speakers, I don't want to and I don't want to lose money and I don't know of a speaker that I'd want instead. Nothing's perfect. Hopefully I can get the 212s working for me, if not, I'll live with them until I find something better...which I haven't heard yet.
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post #24690 of 26415 Old 10-20-2014, 04:35 PM
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I still think you might LOVE the sm60f's in their current config, as the top end on those is sweet. Clean to 24khz, not anywhere the same as the fiddys which roll a little earlier. Midbass is certainly not lacking either, even though they are just two 8's instead of 12's.

Dang Reef, I didn't know you weren't that big of a fan of the 50's in my HT, that's the first time I think you have mentioned that

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