Official JTR speaker thread - Page 850 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 11-14-2014, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nabs17 View Post
Do you have any measurements to see if you are missing anything? Maybe you're all good and don't have to buy an amp. You're supposed to be able to run the 212HT's to insane levels with a receiver anyway. Take your saved money and buy more OS's...you only have 2 buddy.....take the next step to 3 or 4!!!!!!


Midbass....solved.
No measurents yet...some guy stole the omnimic I borrowed. Working to get new tools. I totally agree though...I don't need amps for insanity...just curious now. Maybe ignorance is bliss in this case, because I think I get plenty of slam...likely don't need anything. But will measure to verify.

I was thisclose to getting 2 more OS last month, but I think my wife will hurt me...oh, and I'll have some space limits. It's always on my mind and I may one day...
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Old 11-14-2014, 12:07 PM
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So are the 215RT's as close to music heaven one can get without breaking the bank?

Is the regular finish on the speakers nice or do you go for the automotive finish?
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Old 11-14-2014, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
While I understand the previous analysis paralysis you encountered with figuring what you were measuring and hearing with the midbass in your room... PLEASE, grab any EQ and try something that has a chance at fixing it!

While the 12s in your speakers aren't going to flex your walls at 20Hz, they still have a LOT of maximum capability. 2x 12" woofers is similar Sd to a single 18". Your primary issue is nothing more than relative balance and starting frequency response. This is what EQ is most effective at fixing. An Audyssey Pro kit or NanoAVR could easily create a shelf to either pull down the top end (-dB high shelf) or lift the bottom ~6dB which would make a dramatic sonic difference. The speakers are so efficient that I would wager that your 212HT-LP is about the same sensitivity, and possibly more, than a 215RT around 100Hz. The difference is just the relative level of the rest of the range. Yes, you might want a little more power after you get the system corrected, but you are dealing with a non-ideal living room with practical limits on treatments and placement, and I suspect you'd be quite surprised at how loud it can still get with the boost in there.

I've seen more than a few modestly treated, narrow rooms that have way too much midbass energy, and heard baffle-wall installs sound very muddy before EQ was applied. I get that you did not expect to need it and would have preferred to know it before your purchase, but it's not like the problem isn't addressable for a lot less than you invested in lab grade measurement equipment. Now that you can take the measurements, give some EQ a chance!




@dgage , I had assumed that you had already tried to EQ you 212's - if not I would definitely try it first before looking at any other options especially since you like the mid range and highs on the 212's so much. You could have a quick/free/easy solution!! Well... assuming you have a device to EQ them with. Don't you have an inukedsp?
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Old 11-14-2014, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post
you got it right Rhed. Take the 212HT place it near wall and run 2000 watts into it. Then make sure you have huge bass from 80hz down and now tell me you don't have midbass. I am geting 10dB gain at 125hz. How does over 135dB from 60-120hz sound plus 137 at 22-60 sound? That is what I am measuring. Any other midbass questions?
Lbrown - I know you said the 212HT but anytime I see a post like this, I want to clarify that you mean the ported not sealed. I don't want anyone in the future to get them confused. I was so frustrated when everytime I would post someone would say the 212s have plenty of midbass, it must be your room. Even more frustrating was on the JTR website, the sealed 212HT-LPs were listed down to 70Hz, which my measurements did not back up. They have since been updated to the more accurate 80-24000Hz but that is quite a bit different than the 60-24000Hz of the ported 212HT.

Listen, I'm tired of hearing me talk about the sealed 212 midbass or lack thereof, I know everyone else sure as hell is as well. I just don't want anyone in the future to buy the sealed 212 thinking they will get the same midbass as the ported. (See N8DOGGs post below).

Of the people that I know of that have the 212HT-LP, here are their impressions based on my interpretation.
  • 7channelfreak - Trying to sell his sealed 212s to buy 215s.
  • Coolgeek - Is thinking of buying midbasses to add to his sealed 212s.
  • Dgage - Thinks the sealed 212s don't have enough midbass
  • Dlbeck - Knew exactly what he was getting into and planned for additional midbass modules from the beginning.
  • N8DOGG - Didn't think the sealed 212s had enough midbass and bought 215s.
I've heard plenty of people say the ported 212s have plenty of midbass; heard from too many actually. I've never once heard someone say the sealed 212 has plenty of midbass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
While I understand the previous analysis paralysis you encountered with figuring what you were measuring and hearing with the midbass in your room... PLEASE, grab any EQ and try something that has a chance at fixing it!

While the 12s in your speakers aren't going to flex your walls at 20Hz, they still have a LOT of maximum capability. 2x 12" woofers is similar Sd to a single 18". Your primary issue is nothing more than relative balance and starting frequency response. This is what EQ is most effective at fixing. An Audyssey Pro kit or NanoAVR could easily create a shelf to either pull down the top end (-dB high shelf) or lift the bottom ~6dB which would make a dramatic sonic difference. The speakers are so efficient that I would wager that your 212HT-LP is about the same sensitivity, and possibly more, than a 215RT around 100Hz. The difference is just the relative level of the rest of the range. Yes, you might want a little more power after you get the system corrected, but you are dealing with a non-ideal living room with practical limits on treatments and placement, and I suspect you'd be quite surprised at how loud it can still get with the boost in there.

I've seen more than a few modestly treated, narrow rooms that have way too much midbass energy, and heard baffle-wall installs sound very muddy before EQ was applied. I get that you did not expect to need it and would have preferred to know it before your purchase, but it's not like the problem isn't addressable for a lot less than you invested in lab grade measurement equipment. Now that you can take the measurements, give some EQ a chance!
Mark - I didn't respond initially as you bring up some good points and I've been thinking about your post for the past few hours as I was driving to/from my parent's house.

I know what a pair of 12" speakers should do. I liked my bass and rap music when I was in high school and was ecstatic with a single, tight Boston Acoustics Pro 10" sub. All I can tell you is that I haven't been able to get my SEALED 212s to do what I think a pair of 12" drivers should be able to do. I'm not expecting Cat12 or 215 level midbass but damn it sounds anemic. This is being harsh but compared to the rest of my system, the midbass is just in a different league, like entry level minor leagues, while the rest of the 212 is most definitely in the major leagues. It's a shame really.

One interesting thing about thinking about your post on the drive was how much emotion I feel related to the 212s. Apparently, I'm really pissed about feeling deceived by the 70Hz number. I'm pissed that I will have to take a bath to get rid of them. And with that said, I think the emotion will block me from ever being able to enjoy my 212s. That really sucks to come to that realization. I've tried to be positive, especially toward the 215RM, which I think is a really nice speaker. I guess I just need to suck up the loss and sale the 212s. I don't want to and it pisses me off but apparently that is what I will need to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
Not really since you'll still have the 80hz - 200hz region that some feel is lacking. 2 x 12's may equal an 18 in sd but it's an 18" with 6mm xmax..... Having had both, I can say for 100% certainty that the 2242's powered with 1000 watts obliterated the 212lp's midbass even with the 212's with a 6dB gain from 180hz down to 70hz. Not even close. They measured 4-5 dB better across the entire range. The ported 212's are a different matter, they would be about equal unless you had the 2242 in a ported box... Then again, you'd gain a good bit over them.
Thanks for sharing N8. My measurements have shown the same.
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Old 11-14-2014, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by AVSF458 View Post
So are the 215RT's as close to music heaven one can get without breaking the bank?

Is the regular finish on the speakers nice or do you go for the automotive finish?

For my ears they are but it depends on each individual. Some might love the sound of something with a ribbon tweeter like Salks for example.

If I get a chance tonight I'll take some up close pictures of the finish. It's like all the other JTR speakers, very durable looking and I like the look BUT I'd love to have the automotive finish I think it looks B/A. However, then I would get more reflection from the screen so it's all give and take.
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Old 11-14-2014, 12:20 PM
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@dgage , I had assumed that you had already tried to EQ you 212's - if not I would definitely try it first before looking at any other options especially since you like the mid range and highs on the 212's so much. You could have a quick/free/easy solution!! Well... assuming you have a device to EQ them with. Don't you have an inukedsp?
I have a MiniDSP NanoAVR and all I can say is I've tried and wasn't impressed with what I heard. Frankly, even boosting quite a bit, I couldn't get the 212 to do much with 300w. With the NanoAVR and the iNuke 6000, the boost actually did something on the 212s but not much. I wasn't impressed. That was just working with the 212 by itself; I've got a few different speakers around the house (S8s, NHT IC4 ceiling speakers, Focal Sib XL) that I'll look to play with compared to the sealed 212 and see how the different speakers respond to boost.

I'll also see if Coach wants to plan a day at Frohlich's. If not, I may just make the 4 hour 1-way drive so we can put the difference to bed...I'm tired of talking about it...I know everyone's tired of hearing it.
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Old 11-14-2014, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
Not really since you'll still have the 80hz - 200hz region that some feel is lacking. 2 x 12's may equal an 18 in sd but it's an 18" with 6mm xmax..... Having had both, I can say for 100% certainty that the 2242's powered with 1000 watts obliterated the 212lp's midbass even with the 212's with a 6dB gain from 180hz down to 70hz. Not even close. They measured 4-5 dB better across the entire range. The ported 212's are a different matter, they would be about equal unless you had the 2242 in a ported box... Then again, you'd gain a good bit over them.
N8DOGG - I've never seen the 12" drivers in my sealed 212 move. What good is 6mm of Xmax if they only move a few mm?
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Old 11-14-2014, 12:28 PM
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You and/or coach can always come visit beautiful warm (not) Cincinnati I should have them for at least another month or two.
You've got a PM.
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Old 11-14-2014, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Lbrown - I know you said the 212HT but anytime I see a post like this, I want to clarify that you mean the ported not sealed. I don't want anyone in the future to get them confused. I was so frustrated when everytime I would post someone would say the 212s have plenty of midbass, it must be your room. Even more frustrating was on the JTR website, the sealed 212HT-LPs were listed down to 70Hz, which my measurements did not back up. They have since been updated to the more accurate 80-24000Hz but that is quite a bit different than the 60-24000Hz of the ported 212HT.

Listen, I'm tired of hearing me talk about the sealed 212 midbass or lack thereof, I know everyone else sure as hell is as well. I just don't want anyone in the future to buy the sealed 212 thinking they will get the same midbass as the ported. (See N8DOGGs post below).

Of the people that I know of that have the 212HT-LP, here are their impressions based on my interpretation.
  • 7channelfreak - Trying to sell his sealed 212s to buy 215s.
  • Coolgeek - Is thinking of buying midbasses to add to his sealed 212s.
  • Dgage - Thinks the sealed 212s don't have enough midbass
  • Dlbeck - Knew exactly what he was getting into and planned for additional midbass modules from the beginning.
  • N8DOGG - Didn't think the sealed 212s had enough midbass and bought 215s.
I've heard plenty of people say the ported 212s have plenty of midbass; heard from too many actually. I've never once heard someone say the sealed 212 has plenty of midbass.



Mark - I didn't respond initially as you bring up some good points and I've been thinking about your post for the past few hours as I was driving to/from my parent's house.

I know what a pair of 12" speakers should do. I liked my bass and rap music when I was in high school and was ecstatic with a single, tight Boston Acoustics Pro 10" sub. All I can tell you is that I haven't been able to get my SEALED 212s to do what I think a pair of 12" drivers should be able to do. I'm not expecting Cat12 or 215 level midbass but damn it sounds anemic. This is being harsh but compared to the rest of my system, the midbass is just in a different league, like entry level minor leagues, while the rest of the 212 is most definitely in the major leagues. It's a shame really.

One interesting thing about thinking about your post on the drive was how much emotion I feel related to the 212s. Apparently, I'm really pissed about feeling deceived by the 70Hz number. I'm pissed that I will have to take a bath to get rid of them. And with that said, I think the emotion will block me from ever being able to enjoy my 212s. That really sucks to come to that realization. I've tried to be positive, especially toward the 215RM, which I think is a really nice speaker. I guess I just need to suck up the loss and sale the 212s. I don't want to and it pisses me off but apparently that is what I will need to do.



Thanks for sharing N8. My measurements have shown the same.
LOL, here is what he thought about on the drive for the past few hours >Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass MidbassMidbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass MidbassMidbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass MidbassMidbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass, Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass,MidbassMidbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass,Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass MidbassMidbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass MidbassMidbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass, MidbassMidbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass MidbassMidbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass MidbassMidbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass, Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass MidbassMidbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass, Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass, Midbass, Midbass Midbass,Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass
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Last edited by Reefdvr27; 11-14-2014 at 12:44 PM.
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Old 11-14-2014, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
LOL, here was he thought on the drive>Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass MidbassMidbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass MidbassMidbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass MidbassMidbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass MidbassMidbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass MidbassMidbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass MidbassMidbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass MidbassMidbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, MidbassMidbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass MidbassMidbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass MidbassMidbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass MidbassMidbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass MidbassMidbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass MidbassMidbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass MidbassMidbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass MidbassMidbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass, Midbass Midbass
Dammit, my stomach hurts now from laughing so much.
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Old 11-14-2014, 12:43 PM
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Dammit, my stomach hurts now from laughing so much.
We are all losing our minds. I do know along time ago I sat and watched my 212's and I have never seen the woofers move either. Ever so slightly, but no excursion.
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Old 11-14-2014, 12:48 PM
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We are all losing our minds. I do know along time ago I sat and watched my 212's and I have never seen the woofers move either. Ever so slightly, but no excursion.
Ok, you sir might have a problem. We are all flippin nuts...watching for cone movement. This thread is turning into JTR erotica
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Old 11-14-2014, 01:02 PM
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Holy ****!!! That JL doesn't make sense, the inner cone that comes out wouldn't have screw all for displacement. They stroke is pretty crazy on both though. Cool video!! AND the video is gone LOL

I have to admit, i never saw my 212's driver do much of anything either, even with 6dB of gain, they just barley moved... My 2242's on the other hand, would look oval I pumped them so hard hahahaha

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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Old 11-14-2014, 01:08 PM
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Ok, you sir might have a problem. We are all flippin nuts...watching for cone movement. This thread is turning into JTR erotica
You have not sat and watched excursion??


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Old 11-14-2014, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
Not really since you'll still have the 80hz - 200hz region that some feel is lacking. 2 x 12's may equal an 18 in sd but it's an 18" with 6mm xmax..... Having had both, I can say for 100% certainty that the 2242's powered with 1000 watts obliterated the 212lp's midbass even with the 212's with a 6dB gain from 180hz down to 70hz. Not even close. They measured 4-5 dB better across the entire range. The ported 212's are a different matter, they would be about equal unless you had the 2242 in a ported box... Then again, you'd gain a good bit over them.
So is 80-200hz the range everyone refers to when they talk midbass? I've wondered what/where it was and you're right...adding more OS's wouldn't fix above 110hz but that would be least of your worries if you had 4 OS's.

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Old 11-14-2014, 01:24 PM
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Dammit, my stomach hurts now from laughing so much.
Yeah...this deserves more than a like....this was damn funny.

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Old 11-14-2014, 01:26 PM
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Sorry, updated pics of what?
Lol either I am officially going crazy or some CX-15's. Maybe your still in process but I thought you said it was swapped around already.
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Old 11-14-2014, 01:40 PM
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Lol either I am officially going crazy or some CX-15's. Maybe your still in process but I thought you said it was swapped around already.
Ohhhh.....lol my bad. I hope non of the JTR boys are offended but here they are.


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Old 11-14-2014, 01:42 PM
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So is 80-200hz the range everyone refers to when they talk midbass? I've wondered what/where it was and you're right...adding more OS's wouldn't fix above 110hz but that would be least of your worries if you had 4 OS's.
I don't know if I've seen 100% agreement but in discussions of what is referred to as midbass, it is really the range above your subs up to about 200-300Hz. I've never seen anyone mention above 300Hz as midbass so that could be considered the upper end and some might say 200 or 250 Hz. The bottom end is generally between 50-80 Hz as most subs play up to that level pretty well but it depends on the system. I hadn't really considered it before but I think my personal definition of midbass will be from 60 to 250Hz unless someone changes my mind.

One example I use for testing of midbass is the gatling gun scene in Book of Eli. I've been in an indoor range when someone next to me shot their damn hand cannon without me being ready for it. I felt it from front to back, back to front, and all around as my organs quivered. Dammit, scared the crap out of me! When I play the Book of Eli Gatling Gun scene, I feel it in my back from my subs. When I was at Coach's house with his 215s or Cat12s, I felt the Gatling Gun scene from the back but also in the front of my chest. So really if you have plenty of midbass for movies, you'll feel it in the front of your chest. (NOTE: I'm not necessarily expecting my sealed 212s to have that type of midbass).
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Old 11-14-2014, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by AVSF458 View Post
So are the 215RT's as close to music heaven one can get without breaking the bank?

Is the regular finish on the speakers nice or do you go for the automotive finish?
I can't speak to the music qualities of the 215's as (thus far) it's been only movies and it shines there. I'm sure the other owners can chime in regarding the music...especially @RMK ...I know he's mentioned how much he likes it in that regard.


I can speak to the finish and a few of words come to mind.....


Industrial
Utilitarian
Rough
Plain


but the automotive finish is 1k more so you'll have to decide if there is value there. My space is dedicated with light control so you don't see the finish unless you're up close so the automotive finish wasn't worth it to me.

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Old 11-14-2014, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
I don't know if I've seen 100% agreement but in discussions of what is referred to as midbass, it is really the range above your subs up to about 200-300Hz. I've never seen anyone mention above 300Hz as midbass so that could be considered the upper end and some might say 200 or 250 Hz. The bottom end is generally between 50-80 Hz as most subs play up to that level pretty well but it depends on the system. I hadn't really considered it before but I think my personal definition of midbass will be from 60 to 250Hz unless someone changes my mind.

One example I use for testing of midbass is the gatling gun scene in Book of Eli. I've been in an indoor range when someone next to me shot their damn hand cannon without me being ready for it. I felt it from front to back, back to front, and all around as my organs quivered. Dammit, scared the crap out of me! When I play the Book of Eli Gatling Gun scene, I feel it in my back from my subs. When I was at Coach's house with his 215s or Cat12s, I felt the Gatling Gun scene from the back but also in the front of my chest. So really if you have plenty of midbass for movies, you'll feel it in the front of your chest. (NOTE: I'm not necessarily expecting my sealed 212s to have that type of midbass).
Thanks for that explanation and let me ask you this....


What volume level were you listening to the Gatlin gun scene with the 212's and Cat's to feel that slam in your chest? Were you at reference...above? Below???

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Old 11-14-2014, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Mark - I didn't respond initially as you bring up some good points and I've been thinking about your post for the past few hours as I was driving to/from my parent's house.

I know what a pair of 12" speakers should do. I liked my bass and rap music when I was in high school and was ecstatic with a single, tight Boston Acoustics Pro 10" sub. All I can tell you is that I haven't been able to get my SEALED 212s to do what I think a pair of 12" drivers should be able to do. I'm not expecting Cat12 or 215 level midbass but damn it sounds anemic. This is being harsh but compared to the rest of my system, the midbass is just in a different league, like entry level minor leagues, while the rest of the 212 is most definitely in the major leagues. It's a shame really.

One interesting thing about thinking about your post on the drive was how much emotion I feel related to the 212s. Apparently, I'm really pissed about feeling deceived by the 70Hz number. I'm pissed that I will have to take a bath to get rid of them. And with that said, I think the emotion will block me from ever being able to enjoy my 212s. That really sucks to come to that realization. I've tried to be positive, especially toward the 215RM, which I think is a really nice speaker. I guess I just need to suck up the loss and sale the 212s. I don't want to and it pisses me off but apparently that is what I will need to do.
Methinks your frustration has held you back from experimenting enough to actually improve what you find lacking. It's akin to guys modeling subwoofers endlessly and not being able to decide which option they like the best. Of course if they actually build and measure the result, they discover the deviation from model to reality is bigger than the differences they were fretting over. It's always better to work with the real thing vs. endlessly postulating... (where's LTD02? )

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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
I have a MiniDSP NanoAVR and all I can say is I've tried and wasn't impressed with what I heard. Frankly, even boosting quite a bit, I couldn't get the 212 to do much with 300w. With the NanoAVR and the iNuke 6000, the boost actually did something on the 212s but not much. I wasn't impressed. That was just working with the 212 by itself; I've got a few different speakers around the house (S8s, NHT IC4 ceiling speakers, Focal Sib XL) that I'll look to play with compared to the sealed 212 and see how the different speakers respond to boost.

I'll also see if Coach wants to plan a day at Frohlich's. If not, I may just make the 4 hour 1-way drive so we can put the difference to bed...I'm tired of talking about it...I know everyone's tired of hearing it.
I recall some mention of running into gain limits on the NanoAVR long ago. Rather than boosting, cut the rest of the range as that will keep from clipping the Nano'. Also test with sine waves in the 70-120Hz range to see what maximum you get from the amps and make sure the gain and signal chain allow you to reach maximum power. Until the amp is clipping, you have more to play with. Note that around the sealed box resonance of the woofers you can dump tons of Voltage into the speaker and there isn't all that much current draw due to the impedance peak. The impedance dip at tuning of a ported box actually does pass more real power to the driver, which is part of where the added output comes from.

You have measurements from outdoors. I would first try the iNuke first as you shouldn't have to worry about clipping. Use REW to first create filters to flatten the outdoor response and apply those filters and do not change them. Now measure at your listening position and look at the response with 1/6th and then 1/2 octave smoothing. The smoothed version helps you see the overall trend of the response. Try to dial in a rise that starts around 250-400Hz and ramps up to around 100Hz and experiment. If the rise starts too high, detail can be clouded or voices sound overly heavy/chesty.
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Old 11-14-2014, 02:03 PM
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So is 80-200hz the range everyone refers to when they talk midbass? I've wondered what/where it was and you're right...adding more OS's wouldn't fix above 110hz but that would be least of your worries if you had 4 OS's.
Well, thats the midbass I felt was lacking with the sealed 212's and what I wanted to fix. I'd say most of us that were worried about it, was at least around that area, maybe a bit higher foe some though.
I don't have any issues with my 215's though, they are great in every way. I really don't have any issues with them at all

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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Old 11-14-2014, 02:05 PM
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Ohhhh.....lol my bad. I hope non of the JTR boys are offended but here they are.



So? how do you like them? did you sell off your JTR stuff? or just trying them out?

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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Old 11-14-2014, 02:09 PM
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So? how do you like them? did you sell off your JTR stuff? or just trying them out?

I like them a lot! so much so that jparker36 is now the proud owner of my 228HT's!....lol
I think they are an excellent value too, they sell for $1099ea including shipping and just the 15" Radian coax retails for $599. I'm considering trying out the beryllium diaphragm compression driver upgrade too.
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Old 11-14-2014, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Methinks your frustration has held you back from experimenting enough to actually improve what you find lacking. It's akin to guys modeling subwoofers endlessly and not being able to decide which option they like the best. Of course if they actually build and measure the result, they discover the deviation from model to reality is bigger than the differences they were fretting over. It's always better to work with the real thing vs. endlessly postulating... (where's LTD02? )



I recall some mention of running into gain limits on the NanoAVR long ago. Rather than boosting, cut the rest of the range as that will keep from clipping the Nano'. Also test with sine waves in the 70-120Hz range to see what maximum you get from the amps and make sure the gain and signal chain allow you to reach maximum power. Until the amp is clipping, you have more to play with. Note that around the sealed box resonance of the woofers you can dump tons of Voltage into the speaker and there isn't all that much current draw due to the impedance peak. The impedance dip at tuning of a ported box actually does pass more real power to the driver, which is part of where the added output comes from.

You have measurements from outdoors. I would first try the iNuke first as you shouldn't have to worry about clipping. Use REW to first create filters to flatten the outdoor response and apply those filters and do not change them. Now measure at your listening position and look at the response with 1/6th and then 1/2 octave smoothing. The smoothed version helps you see the overall trend of the response. Try to dial in a rise that starts around 250-400Hz and ramps up to around 100Hz and experiment. If the rise starts too high, detail can be clouded or voices sound overly heavy/chesty.

The NanoAVR definitely has limitations in the amount of boost and my normal EQing method is to cut vs boost but we'll make sure to do that when I drive 4 hours each way to Frohlichs next Friday to put this midbass issue to bed. All I can say is that what I've done to this point hasn't kept up with the rest of the awesome that is the 212. Might my expectations be too high? Maybe but my expectations are based on the rest of the 212 and it's phenomenal capabilities. Hopefully Coach will be able to join me for the trip up to Frohlichs but if not, maybe he'll at least let his Cats out to play.
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Old 11-14-2014, 02:39 PM
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Thanks for that explanation and let me ask you this....


What volume level were you listening to the Gatlin gun scene with the 212's and Cat's to feel that slam in your chest? Were you at reference...above? Below???
Coach is a few DB under reference type listener and when I'm alone I'm more of a reference level listener but I watch most of my movies with the family and that is usually a few DB under reference.
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Old 11-14-2014, 02:49 PM
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That's pretty darn slick right there
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Old 11-14-2014, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
Well, thats the midbass I felt was lacking with the sealed 212's and what I wanted to fix. I'd say most of us that were worried about it, was at least around that area, maybe a bit higher foe some though.
I don't have any issues with my 215's though, they are great in every way. I really don't have any issues with them at all
I would upgrade my LR to the 215RM as I really like it but can't fit that big of a center. If the sonic signature of the 215 was the same as the 212, I'd likely already have done that. Oh well...nothing's perfect.
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Old 11-14-2014, 04:36 PM
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Talking Moar midbass

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