Official JTR speaker thread - Page 856 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 11-19-2014, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
Well, I got the scoop on the new CD.... phew no need to change mine out lol
And ya, everyone is right about it being a coax, I was thinking of the screw in type thats used in the T12 and S8, I guess it's still called a coax even if it's not used like that.
My understanding is that the S8, 228, and 212TT have a compression driver. The 212HT, 210, and 215 have the coaxial compression driver, which has a mid and "tweeter" combination in the compression driver that needs a crossover involved. You may already know this N8Dogg so I apologize if I misunderstood what you are referring to.
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Old 11-19-2014, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
My understanding is that the S8, 228, and 212TT have a compression driver. The 212HT, 210, and 215 have the coaxial compression driver, which has a mid and "tweeter" combination in the compression driver that needs a crossover involved. You may already know this N8Dogg so I apologize if I misunderstood what you are referring to.
I was thinking of the T12's and S8's as a whole. They are coax designed speaker, not thinking of the mid/tweet that the 215's CD has built in. It makes sense, I was just thinking of the actual speakers design instead of the driver lol

Anyways, I emailed Jeff and asked if there was any benefit to upgrading, he said the The new phase plug mostly just helps with the off axis response...... So I'm not going to do the swap as I wouldn't benefit from that.
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Old 11-19-2014, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
VERY interesting changes to be made that literally mirror the requests/negative critiques of his speaker on the thread here. "Moar mibass" "cheaper 212" "215 seems a little more laid back".....Looks like he is taking care of these things. We have basically been discussing those three topics in a circular fashion since the 215's came out! I guess Jeff is taking the Apple approach and appealing to the masses, whilst offering new and improved changes that make you folks come crawling back for more EVERY YEAR.

We haven't even seen a graph or explanation on exactly what he is talking about and some of you already have orders in...HA!!! I could only wish for a following this great if I were a small business owner Keep up the good work Jeff!!!
I had a discussion with him about the changes too. He is making some modifications to the compression driver to improve off axis response and lower distortion (even though it will only effect ear bleeding SPL's). I heard nothing in his comments that makes me want to "upgrade" my 215's. He does want happy customers and will always strive to give them what they want. I wouldn't call his approach Apple like but I get what you are saying.
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Old 11-19-2014, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Diesel 48 View Post
I was planning on using a weave screen. One of the falcon screens. I do not know if he even looked at the dimensions of the 212, for all I know he was just pushing the porcellas.
I don't think that's a far cry from the truth, he gains nothing by you using JTR's. But clearly would make money from you if you did go with the Porcellas. I don't mean this as a negative thing, I'm in sales and now how the games played. Just stating the obvious.


Oh I have a Falcon screen, and actually I'm just waiting for my new 2.35:1 horizontal material screen to come in. I highly recommend them its a great product and Rich is a great guy to deal with!
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Old 11-19-2014, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
I had a discussion with him about the changes too. He is making some modifications to the compression driver to improve off axis response and lower distortion (even though it will only effect ear bleeding SPL's). I heard nothing in his comments that makes me want to "upgrade" my 215's. He does want happy customers and will always strive to give them what they want. I wouldn't call his approach Apple like but I get what you are saying.
So let's say the changes were more substantial than off axis response and it intrigued you guys....how in the heck would you get the upgrade done....especially on something like the 215's. I can't imagine you'd want to send those bad boys back...or I guess it depends on the benefit of the change.

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Old 11-19-2014, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Nabs17 View Post
So let's say the changes were more substantial than off axis response and it intrigued you guys....how in the heck would you get the upgrade done....especially on something like the 215's. I can't imagine you'd want to send those bad boys back...or I guess it depends on the benefit of the change.
Since the Noesis haven't been updated until now, probably the best way to answer that is by looking at the Single and Triple 8s and 12s. My understanding is that some would purchase a more recent crossover and would open up the speakers and do the exchange themselves. Same with the drivers.
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Old 11-19-2014, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Since the Noesis haven't been updated until now, probably the best way to answer that is by looking at the Single and Triple 8s and 12s. My understanding is that some would purchase a more recent crossover and would open up the speakers and do the exchange themselves. Same with the drivers.
That would make sense...especially with a 215. I guess for most of his speakers because they all are of substantial weight.

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Old 11-19-2014, 02:35 PM
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I don't think that's a far cry from the truth, he gains nothing by you using JTR's. But clearly would make money from you if you did go with the Porcellas. I don't mean this as a negative thing, I'm in sales and now how the games played. Just stating the obvious.


Oh I have a Falcon screen, and actually I'm just waiting for my new 2.35:1 horizontal material screen to come in. I highly recommend them its a great product and Rich is a great guy to deal with!
My new Falcon screen came today. Your year long quest to get me to convert to an AT screen has ended in success.
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Old 11-19-2014, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
My new Falcon screen came today. Your year long quest to get me to convert to an AT screen has ended in success.
Pictures or it didn't happen....sorry, I couldn't resist.
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Old 11-19-2014, 02:45 PM
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Pictures or it didn't happen....sorry, I couldn't resist.
Get in the car with David Friday morning for a Skyline, speaker, AT screen, Graeters ice cream Festivus!!!!
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Old 11-19-2014, 02:54 PM
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Random post....This month is my 10th anniversary of being on AVS.

They should have a spot under total posts that add up all the money spent due being on this forum....
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Old 11-19-2014, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post
Random post....This month is my 10th anniversary of being on AVS.

They should have a spot under total posts that add up all the money spent due being on this forum....
I was at 10 months back in August and am staying just ahead of you in post count. Money spent? What about time spent?

At least I've gone two years now without much change in speakers or subs.

Subwoofer Ownership

Timeline
1996 - Altec Lansing 2.1 System from Gateway Computers
2003 - Klipsch ProMedia 4.1 System
2004 - Hsu Research VTF 2 Mk I
2007 - Hsu Research VTF 2 MK III, MBM-12, Dual Buttkickers
2008 - av123 MFW-15, Dual Buttkickers
2008 - dual av123 MFW-15, Dual Buttkickers
2008 - av123 X-Sub (Office System)
2009 - Hsu Research VTF-1, Mk I (Office System)
2010 - MFW-15 Turbo (Acoustic Elegance 15" driver with Dayton amp)
2011 - Dual MFW-15 Turbos
2012 - DIY Ported sub with MFW-15 cabinet, Dayton 15" Reference HO driver, Dayton SA1000 amp (made for a friend)
2012 - DIY Dual sealed subs (dual opposed 15" drivers)
2012 - DIY Dual opposed sub with Eminence LAB 12 drivers (Office system)
2012 - DIY Infinite Baffle system with 8 Acoustic Elegance IB15 drivers and GR-Research LS-6 mains with extension to 20 Hz
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Old 11-19-2014, 04:04 PM
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^

I've reached the top and had to stop and that's what's bothering me...

quote reference? WITHOUT web searching it...!?!?!

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I will not hoard audio gear
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Old 11-19-2014, 04:30 PM
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I have the JTR 212HT for my Left and Right channel, 228HT for my center and Single 8s for my surrounds. I have a Chase home Theater 18.1 Sub as well as an S2 from JTR. I have a Denon x4000 powering the speakers.

I've ran Audyssey, but the speakers just seem off. I know they are level matched just fine, I've checked that with the SPL meter. I also have Omni Mic and seem to be relatively flat. I do have a small dip around 60hz which varies as you move about the room.

I have Gik Acoustic absorption panels on the first reflection points as well as a couple of the Soffit Bass traps around the room.

I feel like these speakers should sound better for the amount of money I've put into them, and into the room. Movies sound really good, but music just doesn't seem to be there.

I've read through the majority of this thread looking for ideas. I guess I'm looking for someone who knows more than I do that might be able to give me a couple tips.

Thanks
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Old 11-19-2014, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nabs17 View Post
So let's say the changes were more substantial than off axis response and it intrigued you guys....how in the heck would you get the upgrade done....especially on something like the 215's. I can't imagine you'd want to send those bad boys back...or I guess it depends on the benefit of the change.
I have done plenty of field upgrades including changing out the Xover and CD on the Triple 12's (twice). It was a simple process and I don't think it would be more involved than that with the 215's. That said, I don't think I will be in need of this option with the 215's.

Opinions are not facts.
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Old 11-19-2014, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
I had a discussion with him about the changes too. He is making some modifications to the compression driver to improve off axis response and lower distortion (even though it will only effect ear bleeding SPL's). I heard nothing in his comments that makes me want to "upgrade" my 215's. He does want happy customers and will always strive to give them what they want. I wouldn't call his approach Apple like but I get what you are saying.
I need a show of hands, how many of you had a panic attack seeing that new CD?? LOL My whole world fell apart last night.
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Old 11-19-2014, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
My new Falcon screen came today. Your year long quest to get me to convert to an AT screen has ended in success.

Glad I was of assistance!....lol
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Old 11-19-2014, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by casperslide2004 View Post
I have the JTR 212HT for my Left and Right channel, 228HT for my center and Single 8s for my surrounds. I have a Chase home Theater 18.1 Sub as well as an S2 from JTR. I have a Denon x4000 powering the speakers.

I've ran Audyssey, but the speakers just seem off. I know they are level matched just fine, I've checked that with the SPL meter. I also have Omni Mic and seem to be relatively flat. I do have a small dip around 60hz which varies as you move about the room.

I have Gik Acoustic absorption panels on the first reflection points as well as a couple of the Soffit Bass traps around the room.

I feel like these speakers should sound better for the amount of money I've put into them, and into the room. Movies sound really good, but music just doesn't seem to be there.

I've read through the majority of this thread looking for ideas. I guess I'm looking for someone who knows more than I do that might be able to give me a couple tips.

Thanks
I think you need to be more specific about what seems "off" to you. I know it's difficult to put these things into words, but there's not much hope unless you do .
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Old 11-19-2014, 04:56 PM
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Here you go @jedimastergrant
.





This goes to show how much more important above 20hz is than below. The OS at Grant's is so visceral/violent/tactile/whatever else you can come up with. I do not miss the lower frequencies in his room.

Yeah Grant you are very lucky. I measured all the seats and no big nulls anywhere. The back row gives a boost between 30 and 50hz of 5-7 db's and subjectively is very, very nice. I like the back row better. The graph above is the main LP in the front row.

A "smoothing" sub would be a waste of time. I'm also very impressed at the response between 80-200hz. Almost ALWAYS there is a null or a peak somewhere in there for most people.

One sub?!?!?! Go figure.
Hey thanks! So is that with XT32 off? I think so. I remember after all of the Auto EQ bashing we were surprised to find that my response is improved with XT32 on!

I think it would be interesting to post those two graphs in Arch's Auto EQ thread we both attended last week. Not trying to make more work for bud.......

Anyway I was ready to shut it off after hearing the very vocal folks around here trash XT32. I knew that I very slightly liked it on. Now at first the bass was set too low but after a manual boost I liked XT32 on for the bass but did not have the measurements to prove it. But Carps mic showed that it really did smooth out the bass and gave it a boost down low which is needed with the natural roll off at 22 Hz or so with my OS.

And as always YMMV.........and I am sure it will.

Last edited by jedimastergrant; 11-19-2014 at 05:06 PM.
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Old 11-19-2014, 05:01 PM
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Here is the new home for Carp's crappy old 212 HT's. There is normally a black fabric panel that hides the speakers behind the proscenium.



I wrote a quick little blip in my dedicated room thread and I will just copy/paste it here.
I did an in room audition with his 212's before I purchased them. I asked a friend to bring his Procella P8's as well. We did a comparison and it was a dramatic win for my ears for the 212's. It was closer for movies but for music the 212's were the clear winner for various reasons. The 212's had incredible dynamics and soundstage the likes of which few speakers I have heard can match.

As a disclaimer here I want to say there is no perfect speaker but dang this is a pretty darn good one.

Once I hooked up the 212's and did some listening it was clear to me that my Klipsch speakers had been compressing even at levels below reference. I could now listen louder with no harsh sounds. I just kept wanting to go louder and louder. I usually listen to movies at minus 8. I would go a bit louder if my wife would let me. For music it depends on the song and the mood but usually minus 4 to start and then I am all over the place hovering around reference. For a track I am really into it is not uncommon for me to push it to plus 4 for short periods. I go to plus 8 for even shorter periods. Even at plus 8 there is not a hint of strain from the 212's. They are capable of 134 dB without compression. Headroom is a good thing.

One of the best things about the 212's is the soundstage. It is simply fantastic. Wider than the room is. You would be fooled if you closed your eyes. Some of this is because my room has pretty good acoustics and well placed treatments. On a good recording you can easily pick out where each instrument is located in the room. Very cool stuff.

Dynamics is where the 212 eats other speaker for breakfast. I am not sure how this will come off. But if you have never heard a speaker this capable then you simply do not know what you are missing.

There is no perfect speaker and the 212 is no exception. It is not the best speaker I have ever heard for music. I really like the way some music sounds on a ribbon tweeter. Don't misunderstand. It sounds phenomenal for music. But, it does not make me melt into a puddle and then somehow transcend into another plane of existence the way a small handful of listening experiences have. One thing I want to make clear is that the 212 does not have a "bad horn" sound. Just good sound from a well done horn. The 212 is amazing for rock which is 75% of my listening. Also very good for live recordings. I have been listening to a ton of Palladia HD and the live concert feel is pretty realistic.

For movies I have found a speaker that is completely satisfying for my tastes. I think anyone looking for a cinema speaker/rock music speaker should give them a listen. The dialogue from the center channel is the best I have ever heard. So I think I will stay put with these for quite some time. I would consider adding additional ribbon tweeter speakers for music listening at lower levels at some point but it would be tough for me to give up the headroom.
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Old 11-19-2014, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
I need a show of hands, how many of you had a panic attack seeing that new CD?? LOL My whole world fell apart last night.

Haha Dave did your left arm go numb and you started clutching your chest?....lol
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Old 11-19-2014, 05:16 PM
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I was excited last night too until I read this exchange this morning. Not sure what it means and haven't received a clear answer from Jeff on what has changed on the 212 for midbass.

  • Nathan Porteous: awesome news! love the wood horn look!
  • Poi Nguan Goh: How do you improve mid bass if the original 212HT is already measured flat?
  • Jtr Speakers: Even flatter.
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Old 11-19-2014, 05:27 PM
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jedimastergrant, I also own the Sherbourn PA7-350. I can hear a slight noise from my 228s when I am a couple of feet from
my speakers, not a big deal at all. Since the 212s are more sensitive than the 228s I am wondering if the hiss will be
much louder (enough to bother me) if I move up to 212s. What say you?

JTR Noesis 212HTR (LR)JTR 228 (Center and Surrounds)Seaton SubMersive HP Plus and Minus (Subs)Denon 3312 (Receiver)Sherbourn PA 7-350 (Amp)Oppo BDP-103 (BluRay Player) and Sharp 80" TV
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Old 11-19-2014, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
I'm not sure, the driver on the new 212 looks a little different I think but it is hard to tell. Would be interesting if it is just a crossover change.

Frohlich - with these new changes, knowing the difference between the older Noesis sealed and ported won't have as much value. Now wondering if it is worth an entire day and a few hundred in gas/meals. Thoughts?
Jeff did confirm the bass driver on the 212 is not changing.

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Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post
Random post....This month is my 10th anniversary of being on AVS.

They should have a spot under total posts that add up all the money spent due being on this forum....
Congrats coach.

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Glad I was of assistance!....lol
AVS is a money pit...I love it...but it is a money pit. . Plus you don't all the credit, Beast was right there with you
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Old 11-19-2014, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
I was excited last night too until I read this exchange this morning. Not sure what it means and haven't received a clear answer from Jeff on what has changed on the 212 for midbass.

  • Nathan Porteous: awesome news! love the wood horn look!
  • Poi Nguan Goh: How do you improve mid bass if the original 212HT is already measured flat?
  • Jtr Speakers: Even flatter.
I got first post, I'm famous!!! lol That also had me wondering after I saw his last post....

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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Old 11-19-2014, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
I think you need to be more specific about what seems "off" to you. I know it's difficult to put these things into words, but there's not much hope unless you do .
Putting it into words is very hard to do. I was hoping for a Live Concert feeling when listening to songs, getting lost in the speakers. I don't get that feeling. When I stand up and move about a foot forward, I feel that's the actual sweet spot rather than my main listening position.

Another thing is the spots other than the main listening position you can really tell that you are right or left of center. Where the sound imaging in the center is so much better, in 2 channel listening it sounds as if it's coming from the center speaker.

I'm not sure if there is much that can really be done about that part though.
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Old 11-19-2014, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
I was excited last night too until I read this exchange this morning. Not sure what it means and haven't received a clear answer from Jeff on what has changed on the 212 for midbass.

  • Nathan Porteous: awesome news! love the wood horn look!
  • Poi Nguan Goh: How do you improve mid bass if the original 212HT is already measured flat?
  • Jtr Speakers: Even flatter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
I got first post, I'm famous!!! lol That also had me wondering after I saw his last post....
Me thinks Jeff finally took a Marketing class. " Now with even moor flatterer bass!!!"
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Old 11-19-2014, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by rangers View Post
jedimastergrant, I also own the Sherbourn PA7-350. I can hear a slight noise from my 228s when I am a couple of feet from
my speakers, not a big deal at all. Since the 212s are more sensitive than the 228s I am wondering if the hiss will be
much louder (enough to bother me) if I move up to 212s. What say you?
Yep I had the hiss with the Sherbourn. And after doing some math I found that I don't need an external amplifier for the 212's. So now I use the Denon 4311. Will be selling the Sherbourn.
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Old 11-19-2014, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
Jeff did confirm the bass driver on the 212 is not changing.



Congrats coach.



AVS is a money pit...I love it...but it is a money pit. . Plus you don't all the credit, Beast was right there with you
I would have to agree, although I just upgraded all 7 of my speakers and it only cost me about a $1000!
And the screen upgrade only cost me about $500 after the money I'm getting back from the sale of my old Falcon screen.
I've got some nice new subs in the works and I'm hoping I can hold off on a projector upgrade another 2 years.
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Old 11-19-2014, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
Me thinks Jeff finally took a Marketing class. " Now with even moor flatterer bass!!!"
I'm fine with moor flatterer bass as long as its flatterer down to 60Hz...LOL! Looking forward to our meet Friday Frohlich! Should be fun and informative.
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