Official JTR speaker thread - Page 856 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #25651 of 30788 Old 11-16-2014, 05:28 AM
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I wonder if a woofer-woofer-coax-woofer-woofer layout on 212s (412?) would have less issues with floor and ceiling reflections. Treating the ceiling may be a better all-around solution, though.
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post #25652 of 30788 Old 11-16-2014, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Yes, that's my room apparently. The question is, will I be able to DSP around it with the Cat12s? Will the 212 in the same position be able to be corrected with DSP and a few thousand watts. Tune in tomorrow to find out the latest in "How the Midbass Turns."
For that 80hz null, you may need to address it with multiple subwoofer placement, and raising your sub crossover to 100-120hz. Although full range fans wouldn't approve, low distortion subs can handle higher crossovers without significant localization issues.
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post #25653 of 30788 Old 11-16-2014, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
I recall some mention of running into gain limits on the NanoAVR long ago. Rather than boosting, cut the rest of the range as that will keep from clipping the Nano'. Also test with sine waves in the 70-120Hz range to see what maximum you get from the amps and make sure the gain and signal chain allow you to reach maximum power. Until the amp is clipping, you have more to play with. Note that around the sealed box resonance of the woofers you can dump tons of Voltage into the speaker and there isn't all that much current draw due to the impedance peak. The impedance dip at tuning of a ported box actually does pass more real power to the driver, which is part of where the added output comes from.
I have found clipping at various stages to be a major issue when EQing bass and when dealing with the high sensitivity 212s. It's tricky to hear sometimes, and you end up thinking "why isn't this working?" Later, when I figured out I was clipping, the bass boost starts working, and things sound much better. But it wasn't what you expect clipping to sound like. Also, running out of headroom can rob a lot of the dynamics that make the JTR speakers special. I think it would be easier if all my speakers were similar efficiency.

JRiver can spoil you with double-precision floating point everything, but unfortunately, Dirac likes bass management and gain matching to be done in the receiver.
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post #25654 of 30788 Old 11-16-2014, 08:51 AM
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My LP's by themselves didn't have any 100hz dip at all, in fact running them without EQ gave me a 3dB hump. They measured really good. I had my xover @ 80hz and never really measured them under that.

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post #25655 of 30788 Old 11-16-2014, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
What are everyone's thoughts on the ported 212's vs the Yorkville U215's? I think @carp @Archaea @Gooddoc @beastaudio @Reefdvr27 all have heard both. I am in search of a lot more midbass (than my current 228's). Don't factor price into the equation as it is not an issue for me. I doubt I will ever get to hear both of these, but I know many of you have. I was almost set on the u215's, but all of this talk of how much midbass the ported 212's are capable of have me rethinking. Each speaker would be driven by a bridged inuke 3000dsp so I would be able to EQ in as much midbass as I would like.

I can't remember, is anyone using the ported 212's also running midbass modules?

Thanks
Ray
Personally, I've never been a fan of the Yorkville. The top end is not as good as the 212HT IMO. But I've come to realize that the top end of a speaker is the biggest determinant of how much I like a speaker, so keep that in mind. My memory of the Yorkville midbass is less clear, but it was much better than the 212HT as I recall. I can tell you for certain that the midbass of the Danley synergy horns is much better than the 212HT and I've measured both and I can't explain it by frequency response alone. I'm not a speaker designer or expert on the subject, all I can say is there seems to be something beyond simple frequency response that contributes to the different feeling of midbass impact between the speaker designs.
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post #25656 of 30788 Old 11-16-2014, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Yes, that's my room apparently. The question is, will I be able to DSP around it with the Cat12s? Will the 212 in the same position be able to be corrected with DSP and a few thousand watts. Tune in tomorrow to find out the latest in "How the Midbass Turns."
Its very likely a front wall reflection thatr results in destructive interference.
Does this dip change frequency when moving speakers towards the front wall ? ( should go higher)
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post #25657 of 30788 Old 11-16-2014, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
What are everyone's thoughts on the ported 212's vs the Yorkville U215's? I think @carp @Archaea @Gooddoc @beastaudio @Reefdvr27 all have heard both. I am in search of a lot more midbass (than my current 228's). Don't factor price into the equation as it is not an issue for me. I doubt I will ever get to hear both of these, but I know many of you have. I was almost set on the u215's, but all of this talk of how much midbass the ported 212's are capable of have me rethinking. Each speaker would be driven by a bridged inuke 3000dsp so I would be able to EQ in as much midbass as I would like.

I can't remember, is anyone using the ported 212's also running midbass modules?

Thanks
Ray
Well I pulled the trigger on the ported rosewood 212's that have been for sale here for a few months. I would rather have had the standard black finish, but the deal was too good to pass up. For the time being I will only use 2 of them in my living room and store the 3rd until I can build a false wall and get an AT screen at which point these will replace my 228's. The 228's will then either be sold or moved to the living room (or used as surrounds??). The 212's are too wide and would block several inches of my screen the way It is currently configured.
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post #25658 of 30788 Old 11-16-2014, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
Well I pulled the trigger on the ported rosewood 212's that have been for sale here for a few months. I would rather have had the standard black finish, but the deal was too good to pass up. For the time being I will only use 2 of them in my living room and store the 3rd until I can build a false wall and get an AT screen at which point these will replace my 228's. The 228's will then either be sold or moved to the living room (or used as surrounds??). The 212's are too wide and would block several inches of my screen the way It is currently configured.

Haha how did I know you were going to buy them!....lol
Yeah that was a pretty crazy deal, if I hadn't just bought my CX-15's I would have jumped on those 212's for sure!
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post #25659 of 30788 Old 11-16-2014, 05:19 PM
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post #25660 of 30788 Old 11-16-2014, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
Well I pulled the trigger on the ported rosewood 212's that have been for sale here for a few months. I would rather have had the standard black finish, but the deal was too good to pass up. For the time being I will only use 2 of them in my living room and store the 3rd until I can build a false wall and get an AT screen at which point these will replace my 228's. The 228's will then either be sold or moved to the living room (or used as surrounds??). The 212's are too wide and would block several inches of my screen the way It is currently configured.
Nice buy! I don't know why I don't like that finish on the 212's because I liked it on my MA RX8's. But still if you are putting them behind a screen, the hell with it. You basically got a free speaker out of the deal so it is a win. I do think they look good with the grills though. I would also keep the 228's if you can financially, they are great speakers and for what you will get on a sale, you might as well just keep em for the living room. I kept my 212HT's for the living room, I was going to sell them and get something else, but I like them and really not much can replace them. The funny thing is my wife thinks they are hers now LOL.

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post #25661 of 30788 Old 11-16-2014, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
Nice buy! I don't know why I don't like that finish on the 212's because I liked it on my MA RX8's. But still if you are putting them behind a screen, the hell with it. You basically got a free speaker out of the deal so it is a win. I do think they look good with the grills though. I would also keep the 228's if you can financially, they are great speakers and for what you will get on a sale, you might as well just keep em for the living room. I kept my 212HT's for the living room, I was going to sell them and get something else, but I like them and really not much can replace them. The funny thing is my wife thinks they are hers now LOL.
I will most likely keep them for the living room. I may not be able to use the center though, there is no way a 228 will fit in my stand as is.

I'm interested to see the finish in person. The 212's will be in my living room for at least 6 months. I agree they do look better with the grills on.
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post #25662 of 30788 Old 11-16-2014, 07:24 PM
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I'll be curious to hear your opinion the 228HT vs the 212HT for cinema use. I think they are truly pretty much interchangeable and I don't think I could tell the difference. However for 2 channel music, they have a much different soundstage. I'm a broken record on this, but the 212HT soundstage is full wall, and the 228HT soundstage is focused center to my ears. I'm looking forward to reading a different opinion on the comparison.

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post #25663 of 30788 Old 11-16-2014, 09:31 PM
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Personally, I've never been a fan of the Yorkville. The top end is not as good as the 212HT IMO. But I've come to realize that the top end of a speaker is the biggest determinant of how much I like a speaker, so keep that in mind. My memory of the Yorkville midbass is less clear, but it was much better than the 212HT as I recall. I can tell you for certain that the midbass of the Danley synergy horns is much better than the 212HT and I've measured both and I can't explain it by frequency response alone. I'm not a speaker designer or expert on the subject, all I can say is there seems to be something beyond simple frequency response that contributes to the different feeling of midbass impact between the speaker designs.
Well as we all know frequency response is one side of a 10 sided coin. Decay times can be argued to be more important but they don't look as cool as a flat FR and ring house curve on the low end. But I understand what you are saying. High end we know is diff with diff types of Cd's, Ribbons, Soft Dome tweeters, etc. But many argue bass is bass. And I agree as long as a certain quality level is met from the bass driver. But the unexplainable of the sonic differences of low end frequencies. How do we explain that? It's not always simple SPL right? Hard to explain. Maybe it has to do with the physical design of the speaker. Like the synergy horn vs the 212 vs "insert model type here." That somehow the "energy" of those frequencies are delivered in a different manner.

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Deftech...jaded me as well. Just three short years ago I though my Supercube Reference was just about as good as it gets... Hearing all of the rave reviews of their products, then seeing a real world in-room response that translated to NOTHING like what the specs claimed, was probably the single most influential experience that led me down the exclusive path of DIY for my future woofer adventures.

I just try avoid that thread at all cost... As much as I am an advocate against Deftech, I'm more of an advocate of not crapping on anyone (in general) for an ill advised purchase they may have made.
Insert SC "claimed response to 11HZ" graph here. I started with DT's. Heard my old speaks several months ago and cringed. Went home and played "Sail" by Awolnation at near reference with subs hot. Fixed my discontent

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post #25664 of 30788 Old 11-17-2014, 05:20 AM
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Looks like the big 100hz hole in your midbass is indeed your room as it does not match up with your outdoor measurement. You need to reposition or address some room issues before changing speakers.
Yep big ole hocking null there. Are you sitting in the middle of the room by chance @dgage ?
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post #25665 of 30788 Old 11-17-2014, 05:35 AM
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Personally, I've never been a fan of the Yorkville. The top end is not as good as the 212HT IMO. But I've come to realize that the top end of a speaker is the biggest determinant of how much I like a speaker, so keep that in mind. My memory of the Yorkville midbass is less clear, but it was much better than the 212HT as I recall. I can tell you for certain that the midbass of the Danley synergy horns is much better than the 212HT and I've measured both and I can't explain it by frequency response alone. I'm not a speaker designer or expert on the subject, all I can say is there seems to be something beyond simple frequency response that contributes to the different feeling of midbass impact between the speaker designs.
@raynist , I can echo allot of this post above. I like the top end much better of the 212HT, but the U215 does hit harder in the midbass range. I know the last couple of times we hit Andrews U215's pretty damn hard and they took everything we threw at them and not a hint of distortion. I also thought that they were also on par with the Danley SH50, however there was something missing between the two and nobody could really say what it was and naturally the SH50 sounded better especially in the upper midrange. Myself I still seem to favor the SM60F over the SH50 and the 212HT over the U215 and to add the 215RT over all of them.

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post #25666 of 30788 Old 11-17-2014, 05:42 AM
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Here is a picture of Dgage after he fixed his 100HZ null:

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post #25667 of 30788 Old 11-17-2014, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
@raynist , I can echo allot of this post above. I like the top end much better of the 212HT, but the U215 does hit harder in the midbass range. I know the last couple of times we hit Andrews U215's pretty damn hard and they took everything we threw at them and not a hint of distortion. I also thought that they were also on par with the Danley SH50, however there was something missing between the two and nobody could really say what it was and naturally the SH50 sounded better especially in the upper midrange. Myself I still seem to favor the SM60F over the SH50 and the 212HT over the U215 and to add the 215RT over all of them.
Thanks for the information

I am expecting the 212's to be capable of a lot more midbass than the 228's given 2 8's have less surface area than one 12. I can always boost the midbass with my inuke 3000 dsp's, when they get moved to the main theater area they will each be run on a bridged inuke 3000dsp. Until that time they will be run on a Denin 4520.
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post #25668 of 30788 Old 11-17-2014, 05:56 AM
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Thanks for the information

I am expecting the 212's to be capable of a lot more midbass than the 228's given 2 8's have less surface area than one 12. I can always boost the midbass with my inuke 3000 dsp's, when they get moved to the main theater area they will each be run on a bridged inuke 3000dsp. Until that time they will be run on a Denin 4520.
I ran my 212's on a Denon 4520 and I was just fine with it. I now have them on a 2312 and still fine. I would like to add my XPA-3 to the chain but the 2312 does not have preouts. I am defiantly going to scoop up on a used AVR when the crowd starts to move to Atmos. I still see a fire sale coming on AVR's in the next year.
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post #25669 of 30788 Old 11-17-2014, 06:08 AM
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Thanks for the information

I am expecting the 212's to be capable of a lot more midbass than the 228's given 2 8's have less surface area than one 12. I can always boost the midbass with my inuke 3000 dsp's, when they get moved to the main theater area they will each be run on a bridged inuke 3000dsp. Until that time they will be run on a Denin 4520.
I doubt you were ever near the limits of your 228ht midbass. The are also extremely capable of stupid spl levels. Heck you pretty much have to go well above reference to see the 228ht drivers move. I've seen them boggy pretty good at dlbecks when we ran them on dedicated mono blocks at calibrated +17. Not a hint of distortion. I was almost scared how much the drivers were moving. I looked over at Jeff Permanian, who was at the g2g, and he just smiled and said they have more in the tank, as they weren't at their excursion limits yet.

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post #25670 of 30788 Old 11-17-2014, 06:11 AM
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I doubt you were ever near the limits of your 228ht midbass. The are also extremely capable of stupid spl levels. Heck you pretty much have to go well above reference to see the 228ht drivers move. I've seen them boggy pretty good at dlbecks when we ran them on dedicated mono blocks at calibrated +17. Not a hint of distortion. I was almost scared how much the drivers were moving. I looked over at Jeff Permanian, who was at the g2g, and he just smiled and said they have more in the tank, as they weren't at their excursion limits yet.
I have taken them to +10 on a few occasions. With the 9db boost they were moving pretty good, I was scared that I might damage them, however they made no bad sounds.
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post #25671 of 30788 Old 11-17-2014, 09:14 AM
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Alright guys, my theater is coming along. I finished up the stage and riser this weekend. Time to start the soffit and columns. I had an acoustical plan done by the Erskine group. They are recommending the porcella p6 or p8 up front with triad in wall Surround Bronze for the surrounds and Triad inwall Bronze LCR for the 2 rears. I was pretty set on LCR Noesis 212HT and then 6 single 8's for the rest. What do you think of Erskine's recommendations? I have never heard Triad speakers before but they are pretty thin and appear to mount easily in columns. Has anyone have experience with S8's in a column? How did you go about that? Does it effect the quality of the s8? Is it attached to the wall or on a shelf in the column? Anyone have comparisons of the triad bronze to the s8? Thanks for the suggestions guys. Need to get some speakers ordered soon as the theater is getting closer to being finished.
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post #25672 of 30788 Old 11-17-2014, 10:30 AM
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Alright guys, my theater is coming along. I finished up the stage and riser this weekend. Time to start the soffit and columns. I had an acoustical plan done by the Erskine group. They are recommending the porcella p6 or p8 up front with triad in wall Surround Bronze for the surrounds and Triad inwall Bronze LCR for the 2 rears. I was pretty set on LCR Noesis 212HT and then 6 single 8's for the rest. What do you think of Erskine's recommendations? I have never heard Triad speakers before but they are pretty thin and appear to mount easily in columns. Has anyone have experience with S8's in a column? How did you go about that? Does it effect the quality of the s8? Is it attached to the wall or on a shelf in the column? Anyone have comparisons of the triad bronze to the s8? Thanks for the suggestions guys. Need to get some speakers ordered soon as the theater is getting closer to being finished.
If they were smart they would suggest single 8's and 212HT's
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post #25673 of 30788 Old 11-17-2014, 10:47 AM
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@jedimastergrant has 212HT fronts and traid bronze in walls speakers for surrounds. You could ask him how he likes the setup. I've not been over since he made the change from his Klipsch front soundstage to the JTR, but when I was there previously - with the Klipch as fronts - I thought the Traids worked fine in the wall for surround purposes. I don't remember anthing particular good or bad about them in comparison to other surrounds I've heard. They didn't call attention to themselves and filled the room with surround sound - seems sufficient for the task at hand, and Grant is space limited in the rear of his theater because of his seating arrangement.

I wouldn't buy Procella over JTR. There was a comparison done between Procella p6 or p8 and JTR 212HT at jedimastergrant's house. The JTR were preferred by all four people who attended, including the Procella owner who brought his speakers to the comparison. By all accounts, the JTR were more dynamic, more clear, and bigger soundstage. If you don't run your speakers towards reference the Procella will be fine. If you plan to take your system to -5dB or refrence levels then you'd better skip them. People have called out Erskine group on this static Procella recommendation before, they aren't the best speaker for the money, but instead are an established brand and business partner for the Erskine group. A known commodity - if you will. Whether or not Erskine group gets a commission off the sale of Procella is anyone's guess. Eskrine does not partner with JTR, but a JTR setup would be significantly superior by all accounts I've read about.

If the traid bronze is around the same price as the S8, and you have the room for it - I'd go JTR all the way.
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post #25674 of 30788 Old 11-17-2014, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Diesel 48 View Post
Alright guys, my theater is coming along. I finished up the stage and riser this weekend. Time to start the soffit and columns. I had an acoustical plan done by the Erskine group. They are recommending the porcella p6 or p8 up front with triad in wall Surround Bronze for the surrounds and Triad inwall Bronze LCR for the 2 rears. I was pretty set on LCR Noesis 212HT and then 6 single 8's for the rest. What do you think of Erskine's recommendations? I have never heard Triad speakers before but they are pretty thin and appear to mount easily in columns. Has anyone have experience with S8's in a column? How did you go about that? Does it effect the quality of the s8? Is it attached to the wall or on a shelf in the column? Anyone have comparisons of the triad bronze to the s8? Thanks for the suggestions guys. Need to get some speakers ordered soon as the theater is getting closer to being finished.
Yep, basically what Arch just told you. I also had a plan done by Erskine Group.

Surrounds:
The Triad surrounds get the job done but cannot keep up with the 212 if you take it to reference as you might expect. I usually listen to movies at minus 8 and they do very well at that level so no complaints. However, the JTR S8's I heard at dlbecks were better by a good margin. If I had the money to upgrade I would do so.

Mains:
Just get the JTR 212 HT's and don't look back. It would be difficult to imagine anyone preferring the Procella if they listened to them in the same space back to back. It is a clean sweep. I feel confident in this recommendation.

By the way I had Carp come over yesterday to take some measurements. I was wondering what I should do about a balancing sub and manual EQ solution. Well, it turns out that I don't need much at all. I thought it sounded pretty darn good and it looks like my ears are justified. Anyway I mention this because the layout and treatment plan from the Erskine Group is what I attribute quite a bit of that too. So I think you made a good choice there.

I will post more about that later. Maybe Carp can send me the frequency response grabs so I can put them up here.
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post #25675 of 30788 Old 11-17-2014, 12:29 PM
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The problem with the S8 is that they are not dipoles. Shawn has my surrounds placed slightly ahead of both seating areas. He said because of this dipoles would be required. Also I have not heard what it would be like to put an S8 in a column. How would these be done? Potentially I would get rid of the columns and just put them on the walls. He also recommended the p8's because he thought the 212ht were to big and placing them would be harder. Especially with my giant sub woofer. Decisions... I just want to do this right the first time. I can get away with a 6" deep column if I go with the Triads. Not sure the minimum depth if they were the s8's.
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post #25676 of 30788 Old 11-17-2014, 12:35 PM
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"Procella loudspeakers are the only loudspeakers specifically designed for HD audio formats" "Move beyond high fidelity to HD audio" and "The World's Finest Home Cinema Loudspeakers"

Clearly they must be superior to plain ole' JTR speakers...I mean hype is everything in the world of high end audio and home theater.

What percentage do you think the mark-up is for this line? I am guessing pretty significant.

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post #25677 of 30788 Old 11-17-2014, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel 48 View Post
The problem with the S8 is that they are not dipoles. Shawn has my surrounds placed slightly ahead of both seating areas. He said because of this dipoles would be required. Also I have not heard what it would be like to put an S8 in a column. How would these be done? Potentially I would get rid of the columns and just put them on the walls. He also recommended the p8's because he thought the 212ht were to big and placing them would be harder. Especially with my giant sub woofer. Decisions... I just want to do this right the first time. I can get away with a 6" deep column if I go with the Triads. Not sure the minimum depth if they were the s8's.
Dlbeck's The Savoy theater had the initial design by the Erskine Group with Procellas specified. He went with JTR 212's, S8's, and S2's. His S8's are in colums and he has them slightly ahead of both seating areas. Probably the best surround experience I've had. His thread has a lot of pictures and info. Post 4 in the thread has an index.
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post #25678 of 30788 Old 11-17-2014, 01:05 PM
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isn't placement standard supposed to be directly beside listener when using rear surrounds?

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post #25679 of 30788 Old 11-17-2014, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
isn't placement standard supposed to be directly beside listener when using rear surrounds?
I've seen them directly behind the seat and spread out wider pointing into the seating area. I don't know if there is a standard.

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post #25680 of 30788 Old 11-17-2014, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel 48 View Post
The problem with the S8 is that they are not dipoles. Shawn has my surrounds placed slightly ahead of both seating areas. He said because of this dipoles would be required. Also I have not heard what it would be like to put an S8 in a column. How would these be done? Potentially I would get rid of the columns and just put them on the walls. He also recommended the p8's because he thought the 212ht were to big and placing them would be harder. Especially with my giant sub woofer. Decisions... I just want to do this right the first time. I can get away with a 6" deep column if I go with the Triads. Not sure the minimum depth if they were the s8's.
And doesn't ATMOS (not) use dipole/bipole speakers in the surround spots? Doesn't it require direct radiators?

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