Official JTR speaker thread - Page 862 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 11-24-2014, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Hey hogues, no I don't. I was using a buddy's UMC-200 for about 4 weeks but that was about it. I wasn't happy with the quality of the UMC-200 either, it felt cheap.
Do you have a PC source and a measurement mic?
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Old 11-24-2014, 12:11 PM
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Do you have a PC source and a measurement mic?

I have my laptop with REW and a UMIK mic.
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Old 11-24-2014, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
I have my laptop with REW and a UMIK mic.
Well, as long is you can play movies and/or music from your laptop, that's all you need to run the trial, assuming your cables reach. I had to get a USB extension cable.

The difference that Dirac or Arc make far outweigh other audible differences between preamps, IMO.
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Old 11-24-2014, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by logicators View Post
Anyone managed to get hold of Jeff recently? I referred JTR to a friend of mine and he have been trying to order five Slanted 8s and a Cap 2400 for his new living room setup (he can't have floor standers otherwise I would have advised 228s...). He called many times and left multiple messages without any luck. I also dropped Jeff a note requesting him to call my friend and take his order but haven't heard back.

Not knowing Jeff, my friend is getting a bit frustrated and getting close to taking his business elsewhere.
you can PM him on this message board.

Jeff keeps his head down to work, and then seems to reply at intervals to catch up on e-mails. I had a friend getting upset with Jeff one time too and then he realized Jeff's replies were going into his spam e-mail box - so check that too. Best is just to call him.

I'm not making an excuse for this - lots of us JTR fans have told Jeff he needs a secretary for quite a while, but if you can wait it out - it's worth the wait. I haven't heard of a single person who got ripped off by Jeff, even if regular communication isn't his strong suite.
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Old 11-24-2014, 12:36 PM
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you can PM him on this message board.

Jeff keeps his head down to work, and then seems to reply at intervals to catch up on e-mails. I had a friend getting upset with Jeff one time too and then he realized Jeff's replies were going into his spam e-mail box - so check that too. Best is just to call him.

I'm not making an excuse for this - lots of us JTR fans have told Jeff he needs a secretary for quite a while, but if you can wait it out - it's worth the wait. I haven't heard of a single person who got ripped off by Jeff, even if regular communication isn't his strong suite.
I am well aware. I own 3x212s, 3xQuintuples and 2xS2s and I am super happy with them. I also had a hard time communicating with him multiple times in the past but always knew that the wait was worth it. However, it's not easy for a new customer, especially someone solely relying on a friend's recommendation to understand this (most people will have a hard time understanding why a business won't even return a call to take a 7K+ order, regardless of what type of business it is).

I will try PMing him on the JTR forum.
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Old 11-24-2014, 12:53 PM
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Yea I only managed to listen to two selected tracks on it this weekend, Time and comfortably numb. I kept switching between sound mounds and couldn't decide which one I liked more. They both had things that I liked but I eventually settled on the good ole 2 channel mix It is a pretty darn good demo. I don't know any of the other songs so I switched it out for a movie with the wifey after those two tracks. I really did like what I heard though...



Thriller on that CD is a go-to demo for me Pretty awesome.
Me too, I kept going back and forth on the first few songs and like you ended up in 2 channel. Most of the time it's no contest but the 5.1 is very well done and if I had a higher up vertical center channel like you do I might prefer the 5.1.

Both are outstanding.
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Old 11-24-2014, 02:01 PM
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dgage, we didn't really hear your opinion on the 212HT...

I saw your charts, but unless I missed it - did you think the midbass was still thin, or was it more to your liking?

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Old 11-24-2014, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
dgage, we didn't really hear your opinion on the 212HT...

I saw your charts, but unless I missed it - did you think the midbass was still thin, or was it more to your liking?
We started out listening to Frohlich's system and it was really nice. It reaffirmed how much I like the upper range and midrange on the 212. Unfortunately, with the Cats involved and us wanting to listen to them, we really didn't have much time other than for some quick listening, not enough to make a definitive conclusion. We listened to his 212s the most and then briefly with mine and then briefly with the Cat12. I didn't hear much difference between his and mine but we didn't have a DSP to push things, we were just using his standard Audyssey XT32 output. The good news is I'm confident that even if I were to convert my sealed to ported, that the sound I like with the sealed would still be the same, just maybe a little more room for midbass in the tank.

I haven't really decided what I'm going to do yet. I'm one of those awaiting a response from Jeff to find out what's entailed in switching to ported, primarily if I will need a new crossover. I may just see if I can add 4 12" midbasses to the mix and see what they do but I haven't received the drivers yet.

As an aside, apparently I do have somewhat sensitive ears. At one point in listening to the 212s, I told Frohlich they seemed a little bright. He suggested it was Audyssey having corrected for the acoustically transparent screen that attenuates the upper end a little. We put the screen back in place and sure enough, the 212s sounded as expected.
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Old 11-24-2014, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
We started out listening to Frohlich's system and it was really nice. It reaffirmed how much I like the upper range and midrange on the 212. Unfortunately, with the Cats involved and us wanting to listen to them, we really didn't have much time other than for some quick listening, not enough to make a definitive conclusion. We listened to his 212s the most and then briefly with mine and then briefly with the Cat12. I didn't hear much difference between his and mine but we didn't have a DSP to push things, we were just using his standard Audyssey XT32 output. The good news is I'm confident that even if I were to convert my sealed to ported, that the sound I like with the sealed would still be the same, just maybe a little more room for midbass in the tank.

I haven't really decided what I'm going to do yet. I'm one of those awaiting a response from Jeff to find out what's entailed in switching to ported, primarily if I will need a new crossover. I may just see if I can add 4 12" midbasses to the mix and see what they do but I haven't received the drivers yet.

As an aside, apparently I do have somewhat sensitive ears. At one point in listening to the 212s, I told Frohlich they seemed a little bright. He suggested it was Audyssey having corrected for the acoustically transparent screen that attenuates the upper end a little. We put the screen back in place and sure enough, the 212s sounded as expected.

David,


So when you run Audyssey does it only EQ the entire range of the speaker or can you choose the range that you want to EQ? That's one of the things that I really liked about Anthem's Arc. I'm not a big fan of EQ'ing above 500hz, so with Arc you can choose that as the cut off or you could go higher say a 1000hz, or do the entire range if you wanted too. I really like that you have the choice where to set the filters.
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Old 11-24-2014, 02:50 PM
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Audyssey does not allow you customize EQ points like ARC. I was impressed with ARC as well at the KC g2g when playing with the Anthem 510.

Archaea's Auto room EQ/AVR comparison G2G - November 8, 2014 - Kansas City

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Old 11-24-2014, 02:56 PM
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Audyssey does not allow you customize EQ points like ARC. I was impressed with ARC as well at the KC g2g when playing with the Anthem 510.

Archaea's Auto room EQ/AVR comparison G2G - November 8, 2014 - Kansas City
Hey Jonathan, yeah I have someone wanting to buy my Sherbourn amp so I was thinking about selling it and pickup the MRX-710. It should be able to easily power all 7 speakers I have. Yes it's an understatement to say how impressed I was even by the older Arc that was in the MRX-300 that I heard. From what I've read the new Arc-M1 is even closer to what's found in the crazy expensive Anthem D2V pre/pro.
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Old 11-24-2014, 02:56 PM
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Hey hogues, no I don't. I was using a buddy's UMC-200 for about 4 weeks but that was about it. I wasn't happy with the quality of the UMC-200 either, it felt cheap.
Sorry! For some reason I really thought that you had one. Looking forward to hearing your impressions of the Anthem.

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Old 11-24-2014, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
David,


So when you run Audyssey does it only EQ the entire range of the speaker or can you choose the range that you want to EQ? That's one of the things that I really liked about Anthem's Arc. I'm not a big fan of EQ'ing above 500hz, so with Arc you can choose that as the cut off or you could go higher say a 1000hz, or do the entire range if you wanted too. I really like that you have the choice where to set the filters.
Don't know, real men don't use Auto-EQ.

I don't, at least until MiniDSP releases an upgrade to my NanoAVR so I can add Dirac.
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Old 11-24-2014, 04:23 PM
 
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I think they already released Dirac for nanoavr
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Old 11-24-2014, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
David,


So when you run Audyssey does it only EQ the entire range of the speaker or can you choose the range that you want to EQ? That's one of the things that I really liked about Anthem's Arc. I'm not a big fan of EQ'ing above 500hz, so with Arc you can choose that as the cut off or you could go higher say a 1000hz, or do the entire range if you wanted too. I really like that you have the choice where to set the filters.
Audyssey EQ's the bass in the frequency and time domains in the modal range, up to about 300 to 500 Hz. Above that, it doesn't perform EQ so much as it sets a target curve. The target curve is a very slow roll off of 3 dB of the highs from 10 kHz to 20 kHz. It also sets a dip at about 2 kHz that they call "midrange compensation" or the "BBC dip."
https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries...e-Compensation

Audyssey does not try to correct narrow anomalies in the FR above about 500 Hz. The wavelengths are too short and the EQ filters would only be applicable to very small spaces. Outside those spaces it would make the response worse, so Audyssey doesn't do it.

Craig

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Old 11-24-2014, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Don't know, real men don't use Auto-EQ.

I don't, at least until MiniDSP releases an upgrade to my NanoAVR so I can add Dirac.
Remember this post because when you do go with Dirac I'm going to quote exactly what you said too me!....lol
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Old 11-24-2014, 04:55 PM
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I think they already released Dirac for nanoavr
I have the original NanoAVR and to my knowledge they haven't released the Dirac upgrade yet. The NanoAVR DL is available for purchase as you mentioned.

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Remember this post because when you do go with Dirac I'm going to quote exactly what you said too me!....lol
I would be using Dirac if the NanoAVR upgrade was available so no need to go there.
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Old 11-24-2014, 05:18 PM
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Dirac does let you specify limits for the correction window. If you wanted it to leave >500hz alone, that's easy.

I just found that I like the sound better for Dirac to do its thing >500hz. If you try to push drivers beyond their limits for extra extension at the top or bottom end, I found that does more harm than good, so it is good to set limits on the correction window.

Within the limits of the speaker, though, Dirac seems to do a good job at avoiding over-correction. They say they only correct problems that are consistent from the 9 measurement locations.
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Old 11-24-2014, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
Audyssey EQ's the bass in the frequency and time domains in the modal range, up to about 300 to 500 Hz. Above that, it doesn't perform EQ so much as it sets a target curve. The target curve is a very slow roll off of 3 dB of the highs from 10 kHz to 20 kHz. It also sets a dip at about 2 kHz that they call "midrange compensation" or the "BBC dip."
https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries...e-Compensation

Audyssey does not try to correct narrow anomalies in the FR above about 500 Hz. The wavelengths are too short and the EQ filters would only be applicable to very small spaces. Outside those spaces it would make the response worse, so Audyssey doesn't do it.

Craig
It sounds like you're describing XT32. IMO, "midrange compensation" isn't appropriate for a coax driver, or many other speakers with good midrange dispersion. Not a fan.
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Old 11-24-2014, 05:58 PM
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Dirac does let you specify limits for the correction window. If you wanted it to leave >500hz alone, that's easy.

I just found that I like the sound better for Dirac to do its thing >500hz. If you try to push drivers beyond their limits for extra extension at the top or bottom end, I found that does more harm than good, so it is good to set limits on the correction window.

Within the limits of the speaker, though, Dirac seems to do a good job at avoiding over-correction. They say they only correct problems that are consistent from the 9 measurement locations.
If that is in fact true regarding DIRAC limits then that is very good news.
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Old 11-24-2014, 05:59 PM
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It sounds like you're describing XT32.
I'm pretty sure all versions of Audyssey stop EQing above Schroeder other than setting a target curve. The resolution increases with increasing "levels" of Audyssey, but the EQ philosophy doesn't change.

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IMO, "midrange compensation" isn't appropriate for a coax driver, or many other speakers with good midrange dispersion. Not a fan.
It's pretty subtle. Here's what it does in my system:



Craig
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Old 11-24-2014, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
I'm pretty sure all versions of Audyssey stop EQing above Schroeder other than setting a target curve. The resolution increases with increasing "levels" of Audyssey, but the EQ philosophy doesn't change.


It's pretty subtle. Here's what it does in my system:



Craig
Actually, XT does the opposite, with high resolution correction above Schroeder and low resolution below Schroeder. Fortunately, they realized this was a bad idea for XT32, which is one of the reasons why XT32 was such an improvement over XT.

I agree that the midrange compensation is pretty subtle, but I found that it hurt speech intelligibility, and I preferred it disabled.
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Old 11-24-2014, 07:09 PM
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If that is in fact true regarding DIRAC limits then that is very good news.
If you look at the dark grey regions to the left and the right, those get no correction. There's a handle on the boundary you can drag to change the size of the correction window. It will crossfade between no correction and full correction at the first control point.

On the "Target" image attached, you are looking at my theater with subs + Triad Plats (before changing them out for 212s). The room is symmetrical, so the left & right speakers are a very close match. Going lower with correction started to sound worse, so I stopped there. At the top end, I found that I could apply correction, as long as I followed the natural curve closely. Trying to add more treble extension sounded harsh.

The "BR" curve shows a couple Adam Artist 6 speakers in my bedroom without a sub, with much less bass extension. The speakers and listening position are placed asymmetrically, causing significant differences between the two speakers. If you look at the leftmost control point, where the correction blends out, you can see how the corrected frequency response is allowed to diverge outside the correction window. The speakers are "linked" in Dirac, which syncs them to the same target curve. They still get independent correction filters, though.
(A nice bonus for the Dirac SW license is that you can use it in two rooms.)

I haven't had a chance to tune the 212s to a point where I am happy with them, so no results to share, yet.

Anyway, if you don't want correction over 500hz, just drag the right boundary to 500hz. Dirac makes it easy to a/b test, to see which correction filter you prefer.
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Old 11-24-2014, 07:51 PM
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Spent most of the day over at @asoofi1 's listening to his killer JTR system. All I can say is wow! The Orbit Shifters are crazy. The emergence scene from WOTW was nearly indescribable. I ran the volume most of the day, but didn't push it crazy (aka @popalock ) levels.

I did not note any lack of mid-bass in the 212HT's, but they are a different beast than the LP iteration.

What a great day! Can't wait to hear the 215's.

I see JTR'S in my future! But it will be awhile, to many military moves in my immediate future and those speakers are freakin heavy.
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Old 11-24-2014, 08:14 PM
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I did not note any lack of mid-bass in the 212HT's, but they are a different beast than the LP iteration.
LOL!

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I see JTR'S in my future! But it will be awhile, to many military moves in my immediate future and those speakers are freakin heavy.
The HT-LP is lighter than the HT if that helps (must be the midbass). And thanks for your service! I was in the Army Reserves for 8 years.
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Old 11-24-2014, 08:20 PM
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Actually, XT does the opposite, with high resolution correction above Schroeder and low resolution below Schroeder. Fortunately, they realized this was a bad idea for XT32, which is one of the reasons why XT32 was such an improvement over XT.
Do you have some reference that verifies this? I am not familiar with this philosophical change for Audyssey. I specifically asked Chris K. about these issues when I went from XT to XT32, and was told they made no change in their target curve, just an increase in the resolution of their filters, and their application to all the channels. XT342 increased filter resolution by a factor of 4 on the subwoofer channel(s) and a factor of 16 on the speaker channels. The increase in resolution on the speaker channels was applied primarily to the mid-bass response below Schroeder. The target curve above Schroeder was unchanged. If you have some reference that this is not what Audyssey did, I would be interested in reading it.

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I agree that the midrange compensation is pretty subtle, but I found that it hurt speech intelligibility, and I preferred it disabled.
Speech intelligibility in my system is about as good as it can possibly be, and several frequent contributors to this thread, (who have been in my theater), can attest to that. I attribute it to the speaker I use, as well as its' placement behind an AT screen, and the acoustic treatments in my room. I seriously doubt the "BBC Dip" inposed by Audyssey has any significant impact on speech intelligibility in my system.

When you "disabled" Audyssey's midrange compensation, did you do that by editing the target curve in Audyssey Pro?

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Old 11-24-2014, 08:20 PM
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LOL!


The HT-LP is lighter than the HT if that helps (must be the midbass). And thanks for your service! I was in the Army Reserves for 8 years.
dgage,

I feel your pain man, nothing worse than spending good cash and being dissatisfied with the results.

Thanks also to you for your service, its hard to describe what it entails.

Best
Steve
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Old 11-24-2014, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
Do you have some reference that verifies this? I am not familiar with this philosophical change for Audyssey. I specifically asked Chris K. about these issues when I went from XT to XT32, and was told they made no change in their target curve, just an increase in the resolution of their filters, and their application to all the channels. XT342 increased filter resolution by a factor of 4 on the subwoofer channel(s) and a factor of 16 on the speaker channels. The increase in resolution on the speaker channels was applied primarily to the mid-bass response below Schroeder. The target curve above Schroeder was unchanged. If you have some reference that this is not what Audyssey did, I would be interested in reading it.


Speech intelligibility in my system is about as good as it can possibly be, and several frequent contributors to this thread, (who have been in my theater), can attest to that. I attribute it to the speaker I use, as well as its' placement behind an AT screen, and the acoustic treatments in my room. I seriously doubt the "BBC Dip" inposed by Audyssey has any significant impact on speech intelligibility in my system.

When you "disabled" Audyssey's midrange compensation, did you do that by editing the target curve in Audyssey Pro?

Craig
I read it on the Internet, so it must be true. I think it was from the AVS Audyssey FAQ, but I'd have to look.

Yes, I experimented with the midrange compensation using Audyssey Pro, and preferred it off. Speech intelligibility was a major problem for me in my room, which has unusually reflective walls. I felt that turning off the midrange compensation helped. Acoustic treatment helped more. Dirac helped a lot. The 212s helped more, presumably because of the horns helping to keep the sound off the walls. I understand you have a well treated room, which is definitely the best cure.
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Old 11-24-2014, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
Do you have some reference that verifies this?
Found it, complete with graphs!
"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)
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Old 11-24-2014, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
So I took my speakers over to a local AVS members place Friday night so that he could hear them, anyways when I got there I found out that he had a Anthem MRX-300 AVR with Arc room correction. I've always wanted to hear it and see what it could do, anyways I have to say that I'm extremely impressed. So much so that I think I'm going to buy I new MRX-710. I'm not a big fan of EQ'ing my speakers for anything over 500hz, and I really like how you can pick what the cut off point for the Arc EQ filters. If you wanted to only have it room corrected for 300hz and down you simply pick 300hz.


The other cool thing was how you can do one setup for movies with all of the channels plus subs, and then a second one for example where set them up as 2-channel with no subs. Once you've done that you can simply toggle back and forth from the two settings. Reminds me of the Cat12's where you have one program for movie use and then you can push the DSP button and switch to full range.


The room we were in had two dual opposed subs at the back of the room, when Arc was turned off you turn localize the subs right away and tell that they were behind you. With the Arc engaged the subs immediately disappear, all of a sudden the bass was all around you and it basically sounded like the speakers had all of a sudden turned themselves into a full range speaker. It was quite impressive and I'm just wondering if anyone else has tried out Anthem's Arc and what they thought about it?

Anthem ARC is great and fairly versatile. Has a great quick measure feature too to assist in speaker placement (especially useful for sub). I bought and still have the ARC MRX 510. However adding a full parametric EQ, giving one fuller control, would have made the MRX line significantly better. I then purchased the XMC-1 with its full parametric EQ and for me that has made the largest difference (better then the MRX). The parametric EQ on the XMC-1 is easy and convenient to use. The XMC-1 is in my main HT and I will be using the MRX510 in my secondary system. I also tried the XT32 via Denon x4000 but did not like its lack of versatility (ie XT32 was either engaged or not) and did not like what it did to my speakers (actually made sound more harsh). I returned the x4000.
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