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N8DOGG's Avatar N8DOGG 02:37 PM 11-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
It's possible, and I've certainly witnessed how strong the placebo effect can be. I'm not sure how they fooled my measurement mic into thinking that they produced a different FR than the Parasounds, though. They had about 1.5 db difference in the overall tilt. Also, there were small FR differences in the crossover regions. This was easily corrected with EQ, so I considered it to be irrelevant.

The difference in the top end was more mysterious, since they didn't show up in FR measurements. Maybe they would show up in other measurements (distortion?), or maybe it was operator error (placebo, gain difference, etc.) I'm curious, but not curious enough to do a thorough investigation.
Maybe there really was a gain difference, I really don't know. I'm just guessing at causes really. I've found the difference in gains are generally why people think amps sound so different. A 29dB gain and a 27dB gain sound pretty different if not level matched properly ( not that thats what you heard, just making a general statement)

I've got an self proclaimed audiofool friend who'g got some serious cash to burn and he spends it on the most insane crap you could imagine lol. He Always had Krell amps, he'd be buried with them if they'd let him. I brought over my
D-Sonic almost 2 years ago and he went bonkers for it (2dB higher gain) I just sat and laughed because I knew exactly what he was hearing (same thing happened to me when I got into audio) once I line matched everything, he then liked his Krell better again lol..... This guy also owns cable lifters and has a CD player filled with lead to reduce vibrations on his CD's LOL

rcohen's Avatar rcohen 03:03 PM 11-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
Maybe there really was a gain difference, I really don't know. I'm just guessing at causes really. I've found the difference in gains are generally why people think amps sound so different. A 29dB gain and a 27dB gain sound pretty different if not level matched properly ( not that thats what you heard, just making a general statement)

I've got an self proclaimed audiofool friend who'g got some serious cash to burn and he spends it on the most insane crap you could imagine lol. He Always had Krell amps, he'd be buried with them if they'd let him. I brought over my
D-Sonic almost 2 years ago and he went bonkers for it (2dB higher gain) I just sat and laughed because I knew exactly what he was hearing (same thing happened to me when I got into audio) once I line matched everything, he then liked his Krell better again lol..... This guy also owns cable lifters and has a CD player filled with lead to reduce vibrations on his CD's LOL
Yeah...audio is so subjective psychological, and that kind of stuff can happen surprisingly easy.

I really appreciate you not telling me what I heard, BTW. That's kind of a pet peeve around here.

On another thread I was doing my fanboy thing about Dirac and the target curve tuning, and I had a couple senior members on this forum telling me that it was all my imagination. I wasn't able to convince them that EQ does change the sound, and a good iteration workflow is genuinely super-helpful.

I'm all for science - just not people being certain about what other people did or didn't hear.

I agree that a lot of perceived amp differences are gain differences, BTW. I bought the Parasounds over 10 years ago, before I figured out some of these traps, but I got a great price on them, and they're actually quite nice!
Archaea's Avatar Archaea 03:08 PM 11-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
It's possible, and I've certainly witnessed how strong the placebo effect can be.
This sort BBC video shows the human inability to break the connection between what we see and what we hear.


It also reveals why blind testing is the only way to verify anything critically. Desertdome, you love your Cherry amps -- you heard them sound better. In a blind test, I'll bet money they'll sound identical to you, and to others - if all amps are played back within their means. Even if a high resolution mic capture details minor variations - I'll throw out there that our ears are not as refined as currently very inexpensive measuring equipment like the omnimic. I can't say no-one can tell the differences --- there may be some golden ears around here (but even saying this I'm giving the benefit of the doubt). Myself, having a pretty extensive music background in singing and various musical instruments in high school and college, and the ability to sing on pitch without music - I've determined in my own experimentation that I cannot, for the life of me, distinguish between amps, even quick switching, in a blind test. While sighted, I was pretty confident I could. As to very minor differences in frequency response -- if the mic moves even a mm, or a door is in a slightly different position in the room, or you are standing in a slightly different spot --- all of the above can easily effect a mic FR capture.


You Tube

rcohen's Avatar rcohen 03:11 PM 11-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
This sort BBC video shows the human inability to break the connection between what we see and what we hear.
Blind Testing FTW.
I've seen that. I have my own embarrassing stories. It's a minefield. The only problem with blind testing is that it's a PITA, but if you care enough to go through that trouble, it's the only way to be sure.
Archaea's Avatar Archaea 03:33 PM 11-25-2014
sometimes I wonder with the placebo thing - if it makes somebody happy thinking they got a way better sounding amp, and it takes their overall enjoyment higher on their system - then why even consider dispelling the effect?

It's the whole Matrix Cypher argument.



If ignorance is happiness......, do you want knowledge?

I think yes, but everyone has to make their own choice.

I had a professor in college that asked the class - If I could give you as much food as you wanted - ensuring you were always satisfied, unlimited sex, with great 1 hour long orgasms, and an attitude of blissful ignorance of the world around you -- would you take my offer?

If someone answered yes - he'd say what if I told you that example is perfected in a farm hog.

In thinking it over --- no one in the class would trade their current state as a human to be blissfully unaware because above all other things - generally speaking --- human beings crave/seek/desire knowledge.
rcohen's Avatar rcohen 03:53 PM 11-25-2014
The difficulties involved in this kind of stuff are part of what make audio interesting.
rcohen's Avatar rcohen 04:16 PM 11-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
sometimes I wonder with the placebo thing - if it makes somebody happy thinking they got a way better sounding amp, and it takes their overall enjoyment higher on their system - then why even consider dispelling the effect?

It's the whole Matrix Cypher argument.



If ignorance is happiness......, do you want knowledge?

I think yes, but everyone has to make their own choice.

I had a professor in college that asked the class - If I could give you as much food as you wanted - ensuring you were always satisfied, unlimited sex, with great 1 hour long orgasms, and an attitude of blissful ignorance of the world around you -- would you take my offer?

If someone answered yes - he'd say what if I told you that example is perfected in a farm hog.

In thinking it over --- no one in the class would trade their current state as a human to be blissfully unaware because above all other things - generally speaking --- human beings crave/seek/desire knowledge.
It depends on whether you care more about the journey or the destination.
desertdome's Avatar desertdome 04:18 PM 11-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Desertdome, you love your Cherry amps -- you heard them sound better.
I mentioned comparing my Maraschino amps to my Face amps and hearing a difference. I've also compared my Cherry MONO's to the Maraschino on my LS6 and the JTR 215RT. They sound different with both speakers, yet they are both "Cherry" amps. There really isn't a "better" and I don't even care. However, they do sound different. Even the designer thinks they sound different and he doesn't care one bit about speaker or power cables and has publicly stated they make no difference to sound. One difference could be because "most amplifiers have bass phase shift due to AC coupling, but the Maraschino DC couples the signal throughout for no bass phase shift and response down to zero hertz." Another reason for a difference is that the Maraschino has less than half the output impedance of the MONO. Using your switching gear negates any output impedance differences. Here is an interesting article by NwAvGuy (who disappeared last year) on headphones and output impedance.

Last night I didn't compare voltage, but if you can hear a difference at a range of volumes then level matching doesn't really matter. My son heard a difference and made similar observations without any leading questions.
rcohen's Avatar rcohen 04:22 PM 11-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
I mentioned comparing my Maraschino amps to my Face amps and hearing a difference. I've also compared my Cherry MONO's to the Maraschino on my LS6 and the JTR 215RT. They sound different with both speakers, yet they are both "Cherry" amps. There really isn't a "better" and I don't even care. However, they do sound different. Even the designer thinks they sound different and he doesn't care one bit about speaker or power cables and has publicly stated they make no difference to sound. One difference could be because "most amplifiers have bass phase shift due to AC coupling, but the Maraschino DC couples the signal throughout for no bass phase shift and response down to zero hertz." Another reason for a difference is that the Maraschino has less than half the output impedance of the MONO. Using your switching gear negates any output impedance differences. Here is an interesting article by NwAvGuy (who disappeared last year) on headphones and output impedance.

Last night I didn't compare voltage, but if you can hear a difference at a range of volumes then level matching doesn't really matter. My son heard a difference and made similar observations without any leading questions.
Now try with room EQ that lets you A/B test (like Dirac). Dirac will also compensate for the phase differences.

An easy way to test that should even work with Audyssey, assuming your room is symmetrical.

Hook the left speaker up to one amp and the right speaker up with the other amp.
Run room EQ.
Now switch back and forth between the two speakers.

My point is that some amps do sound different, and some don't. Most of the differences disappear with room EQ and gain matching, though.
desertdome's Avatar desertdome 04:32 PM 11-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Now try with room EQ that lets you A/B test (like Dirac).
I can A/B/C/D/E/F/G etc. all I want with Audiolense and correct the phase.

By the way, can one tell the difference between two identical notes played on two different instruments (i.e. piano) that are tuned identical? Does the comparison need to be blind to be valid? Would Omnimic be able to show why the two instruments sounded different?
Archaea's Avatar Archaea 04:40 PM 11-25-2014
I figured there'd be a phase joke thrown in there. I'll own it.

You know good and well the frequency response plot, impulse chart, distortion levels, and every chart/graph/spec imaginable would show the difference between a piano playing middle C and a Trombone -- and yes our ears can tell that difference. Don't try to throw sand in my eyes to distract.

What I'm challenging you on is saying your Cherry amp sounds better than your Face amp on the same source content when level matched (and played within each amps means). And I'm only really challenging you because you are a friend, and a 'man of science' and I've seen you sleuth to the ends of the world to prove something you believe in...or casually heard others talking about -- whichever it maybe.

So consider it thrown down.




Your ears aren't that good. There I said it. Prove me wrong. When can we put on this little challenge? December 20 in KC when you come up for the Hobbit movie at the AMC prime? You bring your two amps, and your favorite tracks. We'll level match with omnimic and verify voltage levels with a multimeter to verify. You can control the switcher and switch as often as you like to try to eek out the differences. @carp , can you volunteer your place and the 215RT as the audition speaker?

Sort test - should only take about 5 minutes for DD to resign in recognition he can't tell a lick of difference. Then we can go watch the Hobbit movie.

----
Yes, of course, it needs to be blind to be valid.


If you sabotage one of the amps before hand, I'll find out
rcohen's Avatar rcohen 04:43 PM 11-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
I can A/B/C/D/E/F/G etc. all I want with Audiolense and correct the phase.

By the way, can one tell the difference between two identical notes played on two different instruments (i.e. piano) that are tuned identical? Does the comparison need to be blind to be valid? Would Omnimic be able to show why the two instruments sounded different?
Ah...then you've also got me beat when it's time to add channels for Atmos.

Did you compare Audiolense to Dirac or Acourate?
What do you think of the TTD correction? I can't tell if that's similar to Dirac's mixed phase fanciness.
Are you using it for active crossovers?
carp's Avatar carp 04:56 PM 11-25-2014
Hogs have 1 hour orgasms?
carp's Avatar carp 05:00 PM 11-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post


@carp , can you volunteer your place and the 215RT as the audition speaker?


Frohlich's Avatar Frohlich 05:04 PM 11-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
Hogs have 1 hour orgasms?
That explains a lot about a girl I knew in college....just saying.
desertdome's Avatar desertdome 05:05 PM 11-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
You know good and well the frequency response plot, impulse chart, distortion levels, and every chart/graph/spec imaginable would show the difference between a piano playing middle C and a Trombone -- and yes our ears can tell that difference. Don't try to throw sand in my eyes to distract.
I'm just throwing sand to make it a blind test.

I should have said "two different models of the same instrument." I gave an example of the piano. I'm talking about two different pianos. Of course it will be different be among completely different instruments. They probably will still be a little difference between two pianos in the measurements you indicated just because the strings will be in different positions compared to the walls and the size of the cabinet will be different, etc. The hard part would be to measure just the piano without room interactions. If they are tuned the same, how would the frequency response plot be different?
carp's Avatar carp 05:07 PM 11-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
That explains a lot about a girl I knew in college....just saying.
Hahaha, you got me laughing with that one.
desertdome's Avatar desertdome 05:08 PM 11-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
Hogs have 1 hour orgasms?

Frank D's Avatar Frank D 06:38 PM 11-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Yeah, the main things I noticed about XT32 is that it did a solid job with bass, and it didn't seem to introduce new problems, like previous versions did.

In changing to Dirac, I was happily surprised that not only did it not introduce problems, but it significantly improved the sound over no room EQ, particularly one you tune it.

For the frequency magnitude portion, my understanding is that the resolution is adaptive based on consistency between measurements, rather than XT32's fixed approach of hi-res down low and low-res up high. Also, the mixed phase and tunable target curve with fast A/B testing are really great.

With this level of quality and control, this now seems like an essential component of high quality audio. The difference may be less pronounced in a well treated room, but the EQ tuning process alone can make dramatic improvements. There are so many things that determine the right target curve - room, speakers, taste, etc. - making that curve editing process invaluable.

I used to think all EQ above Schroeder detracted from the sound.
Yes I use to think that too until I removed a 400hz to 600 hz peek that made a day and night difference (particularly in the vocals) that neither XT32 or Anthem ARC could do for me. Something else I am coming to understand is that, for me, flat bass in the 30 hz and below area may be much less desirable in those frequencies. Mainly tied to a humans much less sensitive hearing/feeling to sound at those lower frequencies. Anthem ARC lets you turn its room EQ off at lower frequencies (so room gain is not eliminated) but not XT32 (note ideal but I guess you can always just turn up your sub with XT32).
lbrown105's Avatar lbrown105 07:14 PM 11-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Wow! I'd love to hear what a pair of OSs sound like. Four...just wow! I'll be contacting you as I'll be in Bethesda the week of Dec. 8.
who ever wants to hear three OS to their full potential, I am having a GTG in February. Details to follow in the new year! Not as good as four but should be able to make a good judgement about 4
Archaea's Avatar Archaea 08:10 PM 11-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
I mentioned comparing my Maraschino amps to my Face amps and hearing a difference. I've also compared my Cherry MONO's to the Maraschino on my LS6 and the JTR 215RT. They sound different with both speakers, yet they are both "Cherry" amps. There really isn't a "better" and I don't even care. However, they do sound different. Even the designer thinks they sound different and he doesn't care one bit about speaker or power cables and has publicly stated they make no difference to sound. One difference could be because "most amplifiers have bass phase shift due to AC coupling, but the Maraschino DC couples the signal throughout for no bass phase shift and response down to zero hertz." Another reason for a difference is that the Maraschino has less than half the output impedance of the MONO. Using your switching gear negates any output impedance differences. Here is an interesting article by NwAvGuy (who disappeared last year) on headphones and output impedance.

Last night I didn't compare voltage, but if you can hear a difference at a range of volumes then level matching doesn't really matter. My son heard a difference and made similar observations without any leading questions.
The impedance of my switching device is of no consequence to the results of a blind test. It is basically eight identical lines of 12 gauge speaker wire connected by single throw, double pole utility switches. I used a multimeter to compare impedance between the eight lines. It was within a couple hundreths of an ohm difference with each channel and well under the audible limits recommended by Roger Russel. The typical user is likely to encounter greater variance in their own wiring at home due to variant lengths and different wires/guages used.
Nabs17's Avatar Nabs17 08:27 PM 11-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post
who ever wants to hear three OS to their full potential, I am having a GTG in February. Details to follow in the new year! Not as good as four but should be able to make a good judgement about 4
Is this a GTG to show the prowess of 3 OS's or is there another agenda? That would be great to hear but don't you guys have GTG's when it's warm outside??? Wisconsin in Feb has got to be too cold and too snowy for us FL folk.
lbrown105's Avatar lbrown105 09:00 PM 11-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nabs17 View Post
Is this a GTG to show the prowess of 3 OS's or is there another agenda? That would be great to hear but don't you guys have GTG's when it's warm outside??? Wisconsin in Feb has got to be too cold and too snowy for us FL folk.
the only real agenda will be fun. Lots of movie clips and music demos and maybe followed by a full movie. In fact it will likely turn into a full blown party as the night goes on.

I doubt we will be switching equipment for comparisons but I will be able to demonstrate Dirac and its ability to deliver target FR curves, and improvements on impulse response vs std PEQ. Also anyone interested in hearing the capability of 3OS's, 212HT's running of Lab Gruppen 10KQ and slant 8's from Sunfire TGA 7400 may find this GTG interesting.

The forecast for February is clear, loud, hi resolution audio with a chance of excess SPL for short periods.
popalock's Avatar popalock 09:24 PM 11-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
Digital Amp Company King Maraschino

I used these at RMAF with the JTR 215HT.

I was so impressed with the bass on the 215HT's with the Maraschinos that last night I hooked one up to one of my infinite baffle manifolds. I wired the four 8-ohm drivers in parallel for a 2 ohm load. The amps can provide 800 watts RMS at 2 ohms and can handle down to a 1 ohm load. One could easily tell the difference between this amp and my Face Audio F1200TS driving the other manifold. The Face had two drivers per channel for a 4 ohms load and a total of 4400 watts for all 4 drivers. The Maraschino seemed to have deeper bass (even with music) and the bass notes were more defined and dynamic. I'm probably going to use the Maraschino's for my IB subs and the Cherry MONOs for my mains.
DD, what is a Wout?

As taken from the Cherry Amp home page:

rhed's Avatar rhed 10:22 PM 11-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post
the only real agenda will be fun. Lots of movie clips and music demos and maybe followed by a full movie. In fact it will likely turn into a full blown party as the night goes on.

I doubt we will be switching equipment for comparisons but I will be able to demonstrate Dirac and its ability to deliver target FR curves, and improvements on impulse response vs std PEQ. Also anyone interested in hearing the capability of 3OS's, 212HT's running of Lab Gruppen 10KQ and slant 8's from Sunfire TGA 7400 may find this GTG interesting.

The forecast for February is clear, loud, hi resolution audio with a chance of excess SPL for short periods.
Party? Nah Ib... Your getting the whole outcome wrong.. Let me do the math for you..
3 OS+ slanted 8's+ LG 10Q powered 212HT= full blown concert/ wrecked house!! Haha!
Bro! I still can't imagine 3 OS.. Wait I still can't imagine 212HT's powered by LG's.. Haha nice!
desertdome's Avatar desertdome 10:47 PM 11-25-2014
Quote:
DD, what is a Wout
1Wout=1 Watt Output
coolgeek's Avatar coolgeek 01:54 AM 11-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
This sort BBC video shows the human inability to break the connection between what we see and what we hear.


It also reveals why blind testing is the only way to verify anything critically. Desertdome, you love your Cherry amps -- you heard them sound better. In a blind test, I'll bet money they'll sound identical to you, and to others - if all amps are played back within their means. Even if a high resolution mic capture details minor variations - I'll throw out there that our ears are not as refined as currently very inexpensive measuring equipment like the omnimic. I can't say no-one can tell the differences --- there may be some golden ears around here (but even saying this I'm giving the benefit of the doubt). Myself, having a pretty extensive music background in singing and various musical instruments in high school and college, and the ability to sing on pitch without music - I've determined in my own experimentation that I cannot, for the life of me, distinguish between amps, even quick switching, in a blind test. While sighted, I was pretty confident I could. As to very minor differences in frequency response -- if the mic moves even a mm, or a door is in a slightly different position in the room, or you are standing in a slightly different spot --- all of the above can easily effect a mic FR capture.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0
Unless an AMP have DSP modes, then yeah, I am on the camp that all 'pure amplification' in today's amp are already so good that they don't make much difference (measured) and probably none at all to our ears. Same with speaker cables (like $10,000 cables vs my $5 ones)

On the other hand, some receivers have DSP modes i prefer over others. But I guess that's not what we're talking about here.

And on the topic of blind testing, I have this caveat. This does not pertain to just amps, but speakers as well. If a difference in SQ is very small, our brain will likely compensate for it. So, brief blind testing will not yield the right results. For instance, say, you have Speaker A in a room, and you get to audition it for a month at home. Then switch over to speaker B. Both being blind. You don't know which speaker sets you're listening to. Can you, over the period of 1 month, have a preference from one over another and yet, at the same time, couldn't tell the difference between A and B in a quick 15 min blind testing session?

I'll give you an example,... I EQed my amp a little, and i couldn't tell any difference when switching on and off the eq. But if i left the eq on for a day or two, i suddenly felt something was off and that i didn't like it.

Also, for instance, one i had audyssey turned on, and i didn't even notice it for a few days until i really hated my speakers. I was suddenly aware i didn't like the sound from my speakers. It totally escaped me for a few days.. and then i checked everything, and found audyssey on.. after i turned it off, i liked my speakers again...

In my opinion, our brain's ability to compensate, ignore, selective, etc, are far bigger than we think.
countryWV's Avatar countryWV 05:42 AM 11-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post
who ever wants to hear three OS to their full potential, I am having a GTG in February. Details to follow in the new year! Not as good as four but should be able to make a good judgement about 4
7 is the magic number, 7


You Tube

I'm only waiting 7 minutes
Happy Thanksgiving all
Chris
rcohen's Avatar rcohen 05:53 AM 11-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
In my opinion, our brain's ability to compensate, ignore, selective, etc, are far bigger than we think.
Yep, and that's how all the senses work. The power of acclimation is strong.

If you change the color temperature on a screen, within 20 minutes, you will auto white balance, and it will look the same. So, it's best to avoid the high color temperatures that look better short term, because they cause more eye strain and look the same long term.

If you drink Coke for a month, you'll prefer the taste of Coke. If you drink Pepsi for a month, you'll prefer the taste of Pepsi. Same goes for beer, liquor, cigarette brands (for those that still smoke), etc.

And your perception of sound includes auto EQs, similar to an auto white balance, and you prefer speakers timbres that you are acclimated to. Even volume works that way. If you turn the volume up, in 15 minutes, you'll acclimate to it, and not notice the difference (so don't turn it up too much and damage your hearing).

This is really apparent when using Dirac, since you have a tone of control to quickly change the sound, but you rapidly acclimate, so it's a moving target. If you come back an hour later, your perception is totally different.

When listening to other people's sound systems, the results are surprisingly random. Sometimes it sounds great to them, but awful to me, despite a lot of money and effort, but they are acclimated to it.

It must be strange to create and market audio products, when most of the differences are in your head, not in the products.

I'm not saying everything is the same. Not at all. The differences are just overlaid over lots of brain weirdness that makes an even bigger difference.
desertdome's Avatar desertdome 07:23 AM 11-26-2014
I read these posts and my brain thinks we're somehow still talking about JTR.
Tags: 215RT , 228ht , captivator , Jtr , Jtr Noesis 212ht 212ht Lp
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