Official JTR speaker thread - Page 869 - AVS Forum
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post #26041 of 26059 Old Yesterday, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
In my opinion, our brain's ability to compensate, ignore, selective, etc, are far bigger than we think.
Yep, and that's how all the senses work. The power of acclimation is strong.

If you change the color temperature on a screen, within 20 minutes, you will auto white balance, and it will look the same. So, it's best to avoid the high color temperatures that look better short term, because they cause more eye strain and look the same long term.

If you drink Coke for a month, you'll prefer the taste of Coke. If you drink Pepsi for a month, you'll prefer the taste of Pepsi. Same goes for beer, liquor, cigarette brands (for those that still smoke), etc.

And your perception of sound includes auto EQs, similar to an auto white balance, and you prefer speakers timbres that you are acclimated to. Even volume works that way. If you turn the volume up, in 15 minutes, you'll acclimate to it, and not notice the difference (so don't turn it up too much and damage your hearing).

This is really apparent when using Dirac, since you have a tone of control to quickly change the sound, but you rapidly acclimate, so it's a moving target. If you come back an hour later, your perception is totally different.

When listening to other people's sound systems, the results are surprisingly random. Sometimes it sounds great to them, but awful to me, despite a lot of money and effort, but they are acclimated to it.

It must be strange to create and market audio products, when most of the differences are in your head, not in the products.

I'm not saying everything is the same. Not at all. The differences are just overlaid over lots of brain weirdness that makes an even bigger difference.
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post #26042 of 26059 Old Yesterday, 07:23 AM
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I read these posts and my brain thinks we're somehow still talking about JTR.
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post #26043 of 26059 Old Yesterday, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
I read these posts and my brain thinks we're somehow still talking about JTR.
To continue the tangential nature of the thread ... two weeks ago I installed the Marantz AV7702 pre after selling my Integra DHC-80.3. I also had a NIB Emotiva XMC-1 waiting in the wings but due to the Marantz early arrival it became the first replacement contender. I was interested in the Marantz due to another forum member who had gone from Integra to Marantz and he was adamant that the Marantz sounded much better. I got a good deal on the Marantz and a reasonable price for the Integra so it seemed like a worthwhile move. The Emotiva was an impulse buy (is there any other kind ) based upon an interest in Dirac which of course isn't as yet available.

I setup the Marantz and had no issues doing so. It automatically connected to my router and I did an upgrade before the first setup. I attempted to run Audyssey and immediately had to increase the gain on my LG amp that powers the 215RT's to get any bass out of the LFE channels. Once that was done, I ran an 8 position Audyssey and positioned the mic as suggested by the on screen display. Audyssey correctly set my 215's as full range and put the levels at the max cut (-12) probably due to the amp gain increase. As usual, the T8LP surrounds were set to 80Hz and the Slanted 8 surround backs were set at 60hz due to their dual boundary wall/ceiling placement. I changed the SB's to 80hz and ran through some movie and music demos. The bass seemed neutered and so I shut Audyssey down and ran the same demo material again and the bass was back strong as ever. I haven't run any OmniMic graphs yet but will do so over the holiday weekend. Another setup of Audyssey yielded the same results.

It is difficult to say if there is a significant difference between the Integra and the Marantz but it does sound great so I am assuming that they are at least equal. I am tempted to say it sounds better but I know better . We watched the latest X-Men film the other night and the surround effects were really good. I also found myself listening through the end credits as the musical score sounded so good it gave me the chills. I am on the side of "these products sound more alike than different" group and I'm sure DB test would prove that point. My preference for un EQ'd sound continues and Audyssey seems like a useless tool for my situation where I have a treated room and DSP capability via my Rane processor.

During the Marantz trial I decided to put the Emotiva up on Ebay and I received an offer I couldn't refuse and so it is was sold before I had a chance to give it a go. Honestly, I was concerned about all of the missed deadlines and bug issues with the Emo and along with my desire to install Atmos speakers, I took the safer course with the Marantz. So Atmos is the next challenge and I'm waiting impatiently for Jeff to offer up something.

So it goes.

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post #26044 of 26059 Old Yesterday, 09:20 AM
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the only real agenda will be fun. Lots of movie clips and music demos and maybe followed by a full movie. In fact it will likely turn into a full blown party as the night goes on.

I doubt we will be switching equipment for comparisons but I will be able to demonstrate Dirac and its ability to deliver target FR curves, and improvements on impulse response vs std PEQ. Also anyone interested in hearing the capability of 3OS's, 212HT's running of Lab Gruppen 10KQ and slant 8's from Sunfire TGA 7400 may find this GTG interesting.

The forecast for February is clear, loud, hi resolution audio with a chance of excess SPL for short periods.
That is basically how my last two g2g's were structured Just a fun day, with no REAL structure and an attempt to get through as much content as possible. First g2g went awry somewhat as the speaker switcher and all that jazz took up some substantial time, the second g2g we really managed to cruise through quite a bit of good stuff... Hanging out is almost my favorite part anyways
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post #26045 of 26059 Old Yesterday, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
To continue the tangential nature of the thread ... two weeks ago I installed the Marantz AV7702 pre after selling my Integra DHC-80.3. I also had a NIB Emotiva XMC-1 waiting in the wings but due to the Marantz early arrival it became the first replacement contender. I was interested in the Marantz due to another forum member who had gone from Integra to Marantz and he was adamant that the Marantz sounded much better. I got a good deal on the Marantz and a reasonable price for the Integra so it seemed like a worthwhile move. The Emotiva was an impulse buy (is there any other kind ) based upon an interest in Dirac which of course isn't as yet available.

I setup the Marantz and had no issues doing so. It automatically connected to my router and I did an upgrade before the first setup. I attempted to run Audyssey and immediately had to increase the gain on my LG amp that powers the 215RT's to get any bass out of the LFE channels. Once that was done, I ran an 8 position Audyssey and positioned the mic as suggested by the on screen display. Audyssey correctly set my 215's as full range and put the levels at the max cut (-12) probably due to the amp gain increase. As usual, the T8LP surrounds were set to 80Hz and the Slanted 8 surround backs were set at 60hz due to their dual boundary wall/ceiling placement. I changed the SB's to 80hz and ran through some movie and music demos. The bass seemed neutered and so I shut Audyssey down and ran the same demo material again and the bass was back strong as ever. I haven't run any OmniMic graphs yet but will do so over the holiday weekend. Another setup of Audyssey yielded the same results.

It is difficult to say if there is a significant difference between the Integra and the Marantz but it does sound great so I am assuming that they are at least equal. I am tempted to say it sounds better but I know better . We watched the latest X-Men film the other night and the surround effects were really good. I also found myself listening through the end credits as the musical score sounded so good it gave me the chills. I am on the side of "these products sound more alike than different" group and I'm sure DB test would prove that point. My preference for un EQ'd sound continues and Audyssey seems like a useless tool for my situation where I have a treated room and DSP capability via my Rane processor.

During the Marantz trial I decided to put the Emotiva up on Ebay and I received an offer I couldn't refuse and so it is was sold before I had a chance to give it a go. Honestly, I was concerned about all of the missed deadlines and bug issues with the Emo and along with my desire to install Atmos speakers, I took the safer course with the Marantz. So Atmos is the next challenge and I'm waiting impatiently for Jeff to offer up something.

So it goes.
Those are pretty much my exact thoughts having moved from my Denon 4311 to the Marantz. I can't say for sure it sounds better, but it might. I feel very confident saying it sounds at least as good.
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post #26046 of 26059 Old Yesterday, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Those are pretty much my exact thoughts having moved from my Denon 4311 to the Marantz. I can't say for sure it sounds better, but it might. I feel very confident saying it sounds at least as good.
I would think that going from RCA to XLR might make a difference in gain settings if nothing else. No?

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post #26047 of 26059 Old Yesterday, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
I would think that going from RCA to XLR might make a difference in gain settings if nothing else. No?
Hard to say because I was using these Art Clean Box Pros http://artproaudio.com/artcessories/.../cleanbox_pro/

They have adjustable gains so I was just dialing in whatever worked with the Denon. Now with the Marantz I have the gains on the amps dialed back about -8 dB and I'm within a couple dB of 0 in the Marantz channel gains after Audyssey set them.
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post #26048 of 26059 Old Yesterday, 12:40 PM
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Denon and Marantz are owned by the same parent company and their upper models share a lot of the same guts.

Heck we just compared eight processors with dramatically different EQ's after their auto room EQ processors ran in KC, and even with the different EQs on the same exact speakers in the same room, people didn't really have strong enough opinions to go out and buy anything different than what they had. The highest scoring processor of the day was the Onkyo 636 with Atmos and no EQ applied to the L/R speakers or subs. The Onkyo 636 has a retail of $600. It was compared to a couple AVRs that have a retail of $3k. I feel pretty comfortable saying that if you spend about $600 on sale, or $1k retail on an AVR --- basically something mid-grade or higher from any of the major players -- you are going to get a similar experience to someone who buys the higest end AVR or prepro at signicantly more expense.
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post #26049 of 26059 Old Yesterday, 01:37 PM
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That is basically how my last two g2g's were structured Just a fun day, with no REAL structure and an attempt to get through as much content as possible. First g2g went awry somewhat as the speaker switcher and all that jazz took up some substantial time, the second g2g we really managed to cruise through quite a bit of good stuff... Hanging out is almost my favorite part anyways
Two scenarios I would consider changing out the mains for is if you brought the fiddy's or if Doc brought the M2's. You are both invited either way, just getting yourselves to WI without speakers is chore enough, I know!
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post #26050 of 26059 Old Yesterday, 01:40 PM
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dgage, did you get a chance to try that Behringer graphic equalizer yet on your 212LP?

I want to know how you like it. I'm toying with the idea of buying one to play with my Mackies too, just to play with.

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post #26051 of 26059 Old Yesterday, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Unless an AMP have DSP modes, then yeah, I am on the camp that all 'pure amplification' in today's amp are already so good that they don't make much difference (measured) and probably none at all to our ears. Same with speaker cables (like $10,000 cables vs my $5 ones)

On the other hand, some receivers have DSP modes i prefer over others. But I guess that's not what we're talking about here.

And on the topic of blind testing, I have this caveat. This does not pertain to just amps, but speakers as well. If a difference in SQ is very small, our brain will likely compensate for it. So, brief blind testing will not yield the right results. For instance, say, you have Speaker A in a room, and you get to audition it for a month at home. Then switch over to speaker B. Both being blind. You don't know which speaker sets you're listening to. Can you, over the period of 1 month, have a preference from one over another and yet, at the same time, couldn't tell the difference between A and B in a quick 15 min blind testing session?

I'll give you an example,... I EQed my amp a little, and i couldn't tell any difference when switching on and off the eq. But if i left the eq on for a day or two, i suddenly felt something was off and that i didn't like it.

Also, for instance, one i had audyssey turned on, and i didn't even notice it for a few days until i really hated my speakers. I was suddenly aware i didn't like the sound from my speakers. It totally escaped me for a few days.. and then i checked everything, and found audyssey on.. after i turned it off, i liked my speakers again...

In my opinion, our brain's ability to compensate, ignore, selective, etc, are far bigger than we think.
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Yep, and that's how all the senses work. The power of acclimation is strong.

If you change the color temperature on a screen, within 20 minutes, you will auto white balance, and it will look the same. So, it's best to avoid the high color temperatures that look better short term, because they cause more eye strain and look the same long term.

If you drink Coke for a month, you'll prefer the taste of Coke. If you drink Pepsi for a month, you'll prefer the taste of Pepsi. Same goes for beer, liquor, cigarette brands (for those that still smoke), etc.

And your perception of sound includes auto EQs, similar to an auto white balance, and you prefer speakers timbres that you are acclimated to. Even volume works that way. If you turn the volume up, in 15 minutes, you'll acclimate to it, and not notice the difference (so don't turn it up too much and damage your hearing).

This is really apparent when using Dirac, since you have a tone of control to quickly change the sound, but you rapidly acclimate, so it's a moving target. If you come back an hour later, your perception is totally different.

When listening to other people's sound systems, the results are surprisingly random. Sometimes it sounds great to them, but awful to me, despite a lot of money and effort, but they are acclimated to it.

It must be strange to create and market audio products, when most of the differences are in your head, not in the products.

I'm not saying everything is the same. Not at all. The differences are just overlaid over lots of brain weirdness that makes an even bigger difference.

My thought on this - is if you can't tell in quick switching blind testing, you have no real chance of being able to tell a month later by audio memory whether you like one or the other better. Heck on my own systems sometimes I think I like it better on night than the next on the SAME system, SAME media - just different nights - different attitude, different whatever. I agree with rcohen, that our ears quickly adjust to most anything, and the ability to fairly 'compare' after just a few minutes of aclimation is thrown out the window.

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post #26052 of 26059 Old Yesterday, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
My thought on this - is if you can't tell in quick switching blind testing, you have no real chance of being able to tell a month later by audio memory whether you like one or the other better. Heck on my own systems sometimes I think I like it better on night than the next on the SAME system, SAME media - just different nights - different attitude, different whatever. I agree with rcohen, that our ears quickly adjust to most anything, and the ability to fairly 'compare' after just a few minutes of aclimation is thrown out the window.
Archea, I agree too about the mood or preferences and they can change a bit from day to day. I do also wonder how the fatigue factor plays into this. For example when using Dirac and switching back and forth you can clearly hear a difference but my preference for the Dirac correction became stronger over time at loud levels because I experienced no real fatigue vs without which at first seemed ok but was more tiring at high SPL (95dBSPL avg level).

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post #26053 of 26059 Old Yesterday, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
My thought on this - is if you can't tell in quick switching blind testing, you have no real chance of being able to tell a month later by audio memory whether you like one or the other better. Heck on my own systems sometimes I think I like it better on night than the next on the SAME system, SAME media - just different nights - different attitude, different whatever. I agree with rcohen, that our ears quickly adjust to most anything, and the ability to fairly 'compare' after just a few minutes of aclimation is thrown out the window.
Alcohol has improved every speaker I've ever owned . But I'm not so sure that long term listening cannot serve as a data point on speakers. I've experienced long term "annoyance" with too many speakers to discount it. There are things that seemingly take months to even pick up on with speakers. Things that are initially either entirely unnoticed or not in any way noticed as bothersome. But given time things magically appear that are seriously annoying and can't be "unheard".
Maybe we're not talking about the same thing, I don't know, but this has been my experience. It's the opposite of the "adjusting" you're talking about. It's what I'll call "unadjusting" .

And I'm not even trying to discredit the whole A/B thing, it's just that it seems, based on my experience, there is something else going on that the A/B thing might not be picking up? Maybe??

Heck, the more I hang on these forums the less I think I know about anything any more. I question my own experiences for goodness sake. Anywhere but around here that wouldnt be considered normal, lol.
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post #26054 of 26059 Old Yesterday, 06:46 PM
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Alcohol has improved every speaker I've ever owned . But I'm not so sure that long term listening cannot serve as a data point on speakers. I've experienced long term "annoyance" with too many speakers to discount it. There are things that seemingly take months to even pick up on with speakers. Things that are initially either entirely unnoticed or not in any way noticed as bothersome. But given time things magically appear that are seriously annoying and can't be "unheard".
Maybe we're not talking about the same thing, I don't know, but this has been my experience. It's the opposite of the "adjusting" you're talking about. It's what I'll call "unadjusting" .

And I'm not even trying to discredit the whole A/B thing, it's just that it seems, based on my experience, there is something else going on that the A/B thing might not be picking up? Maybe??

Heck, the more I hang on these forums the less I think I know about anything any more. I question my own experiences for goodness sake. Anywhere but around here that wouldnt be considered normal, lol.
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post #26055 of 26059 Old Yesterday, 08:19 PM
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Ha! Nope, just a grab to the back of the head and a kiss on the cheek.

There is a guy on this forum that claims he can pass the blind A/B tests consistently @SteveH
Perhaps there needs to be a meeting between him and @Archaea . He claims there are differences, you just need to know how to listen for them.

I like Steve, although that doesn't mean he isn't FOS. It just means I'm willing to give him the courtesy of letting him prove it to someone before passing judgement.
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post #26056 of 26059 Old Yesterday, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Alcohol has improved every speaker I've ever owned . But I'm not so sure that long term listening cannot serve as a data point on speakers. I've experienced long term "annoyance" with too many speakers to discount it. There are things that seemingly take months to even pick up on with speakers. Things that are initially either entirely unnoticed or not in any way noticed as bothersome. But given time things magically appear that are seriously annoying and can't be "unheard".
Maybe we're not talking about the same thing, I don't know, but this has been my experience. It's the opposite of the "adjusting" you're talking about. It's what I'll call "unadjusting" .

And I'm not even trying to discredit the whole A/B thing, it's just that it seems, based on my experience, there is something else going on that the A/B thing might not be picking up? Maybe??

Heck, the more I hang on these forums the less I think I know about anything any more. I question my own experiences for goodness sake. Anywhere but around here that wouldnt be considered normal, lol.
The main things that seem to bug me long term. All sound good for some (but not other) content short term, but are fatiguing over time:
1) Too much treble.
2) Distortion. (Sometimes, distortion sounds louder and/or more full).
3) Speakers with lots of "ambience" like dipoles or wide directivity speakers.
4) Poor dialog intelligibility.
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post #26057 of 26059 Old Today, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Alcohol has improved every speaker I've ever owned . But I'm not so sure that long term listening cannot serve as a data point on speakers. I've experienced long term "annoyance" with too many speakers to discount it. There are things that seemingly take months to even pick up on with speakers. Things that are initially either entirely unnoticed or not in any way noticed as bothersome. But given time things magically appear that are seriously annoying and can't be "unheard".
Maybe we're not talking about the same thing, I don't know, but this has been my experience. It's the opposite of the "adjusting" you're talking about. It's what I'll call "unadjusting" .

And I'm not even trying to discredit the whole A/B thing, it's just that it seems, based on my experience, there is something else going on that the A/B thing might not be picking up? Maybe??

Heck, the more I hang on these forums the less I think I know about anything any more. I question my own experiences for goodness sake. Anywhere but around here that wouldnt be considered normal, lol.
You're not alone on this.

I have heard many times people on this forum says things like, 'My center wasn't on and I didn't even notice it', 'One of my subs was off and I didn't even notice it', etc, etc.

And these phenomenons have happened to me many times... sometimes one of my subs don't turn on (they are on auto), and I won't notice it until a lot later when something in my, some unconscious part of my brain seeps out and tells me 'something's wrong'.. and then I go and check everything and sure enough will always find the problem.

Like I said, I was once playing with Audyssey and have it set up.. a few days later, i did not realize i have audyssey engaged, but felt that my 212s are no longer sounding good to me. As the days went pass, i got more and more annoyed with the speakers. My brain was then asking, 'did i really like these speakers before? how come i don't like them anymore?'... after checking around a lot, took me a whole day, and then i stumbled on the fact that audyssey was turned on and i turned it off.. my speakers sounded good again... and no more issues...

So, to me, as much as I like the idea of A/B comparisons, I think even blind, it can only show us the 'bigger' things, ie, the bigger SQ changes, but not the very small... I really believe that there will be many scenarios that during an AB test, many times one won't be able to tell the difference between A and B, but given time with each, one might actually have a preference. Not to say one can still tell 'why' they prefer one over another.. just probably one set of speakers will be 'better'..
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
My thought on this - is if you can't tell in quick switching blind testing, you have no real chance of being able to tell a month later by audio memory whether you like one or the other better. Heck on my own systems sometimes I think I like it better on night than the next on the SAME system, SAME media - just different nights - different attitude, different whatever. I agree with rcohen, that our ears quickly adjust to most anything, and the ability to fairly 'compare' after just a few minutes of aclimation is thrown out the window.
You could be right...

I don't know enough about how the brain works in regards to audio to say anything definitively so aa you're speculating, I'll speculate, and in my opinion that small difference that could bug you over time will not show up in short A/B testing. Basically, although one might not be able to pick out a speaker he/she likes initially, one might end up bugging the same person a month later while the other sounds fantastic.

As for audio memory, it's not about whether one would 'remember' which sounds like what.. .just that one set of speaker may not work out over time and another would, but when AB-ing quickly may not result in a personal preference right off the bat.
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
The main things that seem to bug me long term. All sound good for some (but not other) content short term, but are fatiguing over time:
1) Too much treble.
2) Distortion. (Sometimes, distortion sounds louder and/or more full).
3) Speakers with lots of "ambience" like dipoles or wide directivity speakers.
4) Poor dialog intelligibility.
Interesting points and your number 4) plus the oft emphasized dynamics are the differences that jumped out at me when going from my Revel setup to the JTR Triple 12's. With $7500 Revel Voice II center channel I often heard "what did he/she say" from my movie watching guests. I recall rewinding the movie to replay a scene to hear what the heck they were saying. I never hear that question anymore and really didn't even think about it until I read your post above. I recall a few others at that time had the same opinion.

Dialog clarity continues to be a JTR strong point and that is most noticeable in movies. In thinking about this perhaps some of these GTG comparisons should include more dialog driven movie scenes to determine dialog intelligibility. I mean big action movies and grandiose (loud dynamic) music is fine (and fun ) but clear and intelligible dialog reproduction is an equally important determinant of a loudspeakers performance for HT.

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