Official JTR speaker thread - Page 870 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #26071 of 37925 Old 12-02-2014, 09:01 AM
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Desertdome.....where can I read up on how to use some audio features on jriver? Their website doesn't say anything that I am looking for and I know you have done some mixing of channels in David's theater between the side surrounds. Point me in the right direction please.

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post #26072 of 37925 Old 12-02-2014, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post
Desertdome.....where can I read up on how to use some audio features on jriver? Their website doesn't say anything that I am looking for and I know you have done some mixing of channels in David's theater between the side surrounds. Point me in the right direction please.
I agree that information can be hard to find in an easy manner. The JRiver wiki and forum are two places to search for info. The mixing of channels was actually done using Audiolense which creates a filter file that is loaded into JRiver. PM me if you have some specific questions or ask in the AVS JRiver thread. I've found that most long time JRiver users tend to use the JRiver forum and not many post in the AVS JRiver thread.
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post #26073 of 37925 Old 12-02-2014, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
Hi guys,
I have been on the quest of getting a great home theater sound (why isn't). About a year ago, I started my own thread to understand how to calibrate sub and ended up buying two subs and learning how to calibrate them One better sub or two subs

So at the end of journey, I ended up with 3 Klipsch RF-82 as C,L,R and two RS-52 for surround and basic satellite definitive speakers for back. I do like the sound but it has one major issue for me (and specially for my spouse). When there is an action scene in a movie, it gets very loud in the room. Its an annoying loudness. Its very Sharp. We have been to IMAX and they are also very loud but they sound very warm loud. Now, I know by no means I can produce a sound of IMAX but at the same time, I don't wanna be in the position where anytime there is an action scene, instead of enjoying it, I get worried about it being too sharp and high pitch.

So is that the Klipsch speakers doing it? Would it be better to replace Klipsch with Noesis 228TH? Or is it more of a room acoustics treatment issue?
Also, I live in NJ. Where can I go to demo Noesis 228TH speakers?
Thx
Sheraz,

I live in central NJ and will be happy to demo my JTR setup to you (3x 212s, 3x Quintuples, 2x S2s). PM me if interested.
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post #26074 of 37925 Old 12-02-2014, 02:35 PM
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Ran across a somewhat local deal... Looks to be a 2009 set of Triple 12's with the JTR logo etched on the back. Assuming they're in good condition and haven't been updated, any ideas on what they're worth? Not sure what I would do with them but I've got a buddy who would love them for 2 channel duty.
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post #26075 of 37925 Old 12-02-2014, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by laeriq View Post
Ran across a somewhat local deal... Looks to be a 2009 set of Triple 12's with the JTR logo etched on the back. Assuming they're in good condition and haven't been updated, any ideas on what they're worth? Not sure what I would do with them but I've got a buddy who would love them for 2 channel duty.
I wouldn't pay more than 700$. The newer versions are a nice setup up in SQ vs the 2009 and lower. I personally wouldn't bother with the older versions because for a few hundred more, you could find a newer set with the updated drivers.

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post #26076 of 37925 Old 12-02-2014, 04:40 PM
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Thanks for the info. He's got them listed at a grand and I figured with the age that might be a bit high. My buddy is using energy rc-10's in his 2 channel setup so I figured the jtr' would be a nice move up. I now that Jeff phased out the T12's...anyone know if he's still selling the upgrades?
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post #26077 of 37925 Old 12-02-2014, 04:57 PM
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The upgrades are 600$ for both speakers, I know because I did my 2010's with the new xover and CD.
At 1000$, I wouldn't be inclined to bother. Thats a pretty high price. @1600 $, you could buy a used set of 228's.

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post #26078 of 37925 Old 12-02-2014, 07:39 PM
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From who?


I've not seen 228HT's sell for $800 used?


Jeff's yearly price increase provides a little insulation against loss for people who purchase at introductory costs.

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post #26079 of 37925 Old 12-02-2014, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
From who?


I've not seen 228HT's sell for $800 used?


Jeff's yearly price increase provides a little insulation against loss for people who purchase at introductory costs.
for 1600$ used. 1000$ for the old T12's and 600$ for the upgrades silly!

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post #26080 of 37925 Old 12-02-2014, 09:31 PM
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Hey guys just chiming in here. I don't have a full review but just wanted to say I'm still really enjoying my new 228s, especially for movies they are amazing.

I noticed that they seem a lot louder than my ascend 340s did even at the same levels. I seem to notice it with music and maybe a little more with movies. I even double checked with pink noise and sure enough there right at 85db give or take 1. Has anyone else noticed the 228s seemed louder than a previous speaker?

Another thing I noticed is that I have turned my LFE channel down 2db from what I used with the ascends (4db Hot) and like the sound better. I'm thinking I get more punch in the 100-1000hz range that I wasn't getting before so running the bass 6db hot gave me a false sense of getting more impact, even though I wasn't missing the impact down low where I thought I was. Does that make sense? Lol
Looking forward to your full review!
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post #26081 of 37925 Old 12-02-2014, 10:32 PM
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Official JTR speaker thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
From who?


I've not seen 228HT's sell for $800 used?


Jeff's yearly price increase provides a little insulation against loss for people who purchase at introductory costs.

Yeah I sold my 228's to jparker for $2900 for three. I know I could have gotten $3000 if I really wanted too. But I was glad to see them go to someone who'd really enjoy them.

Last edited by jbrown15; 12-02-2014 at 10:35 PM.
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post #26082 of 37925 Old 12-03-2014, 08:18 AM
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Yeah I sold my 228's to jparker for $2900 for three. I know I could have gotten $3000 if I really wanted too. But I was glad to see them go to someone who'd really enjoy them.
Which JTR's are you running now? ;-)
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post #26083 of 37925 Old 12-03-2014, 08:48 AM
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So, two days ago I watched the following about the science of the room with Paul Hales after seeing a post with a link from Desertdome.

http://twit.tv/show/home-theater-geeks/164

I saw that AVS had this same interview a while back but I didn't watch the whole thing. The part that really intrigued me was from 43:00 to 45:00 where he talks about a study where they put people in an anechoic chamber and had direct speakers and then other speakers that were meant to mimic the effect of a first reflection from a wall and they gave the participants a volume control to select the volume from the secondary speaker (the speaker that mimicked the first reflection) and the people in the study turned the volume of the reflection speaker as loud or louder than what a first reflection from a hard wall would be.

Now, I think the flaw with this is that music would sound extremely dead and lifeless in an anechoic chamber so any help you could get to mimic a reflection would be a good thing so I figured there may not be much merit to this experiment. I think a better experiment would be to have the speakers outside with the same setup, having the secondary speakers mimicking what would be a wall - or do the experiment in a well treated room and place the secondary speakers right in front of the first reflection panels.

However, I was curious enough to try removing some/all of my treatments and see what would happen with 2 channel music.

At first I took all of them down, both first and second reflections on each side wall and the first reflection of the ceiling panels. I have a total of 7 GIK panels, 2 on each side wall and 3 on the ceiling.

So, with all of the panels taken out I randomly surfed through my music trying out parts of a bunch of different songs. Right a way I didn't really like it as much with all of the panels taken down. Yes, I felt the soundstage was wider but at the same time it became harder to focus on specific instruments/voices etc. and I knew I didn't prefer music this way - which I wasn't surprised, because I remember thinking it was a nice improvement when I put all my treatments in (thanks to Luke Kamp who brought over a bunch of panels so I could test it out before buying a couple years ago).

So, I figured that what Paul Hales is talking about doesn't work in my room but I wanted to be sure. So, I next tried different combinations of panels to see if I liked anything better than my 7 panel setup. I tried the following:

1. Ceiling panels, no wall panels.
2. All wall panels, no ceiling panels.
3. First reflection panels only, nothing else.
4. Second reflection panels only, nothing else.
5. First reflection panels only, nothing else.
6. Ceiling panels and first reflection panels.
7. Ceiling panels and second reflection panels.
8. Finally, back to all 7 panels.

I went back and forth many times since Monday evening. I've been home sick yesterday and today to lots of time to experiment.

Here is what I found. I liked #7 by a significant margin!! So, using the secondary reflection panels and ceiling panels but NO first reflection panels is what my ears liked best.

Second place was #4 (secondary reflection panels up and nothing else) and 3rd place was #8 (all panels in place).

So it would seem in my room that the most important acoustic panel placement is the secondary reflections, in other words, the reflection on each side wall coming from the speaker from the other side of the room. However, even more important is NOT having first reflection panels!!!

The way I would describe the improvement with taking down the first reflection panels is that the soundstage gets bigger and the sound is more "exciting" and pleasing. I went back and forth SO many times with taking on and off the first reflection panel and that was the impression I got every time. Enough to know that I'm not ever using the first reflection panels for 2 channel music again.

So, I figure all is good and I can just take down my first reflection panels and live happily ever after. Not so fast my friend. I was up in the middle of the night last night (can't sleep, just cough like crazy when lying down) watching episodes of The Killing on Netflix. I've watched a bunch of episodes recently so I'm very familiar with how the show sounds. Last night for the first time I found myself straining to hear some of the dialogue in a couple scenes. Nothing major, but enough to notice. The speech intelligibility in my room is quite good for not having an AT setup (ha, as long as i don't recline... which sucks a bit...) but this was noticeably not great. So this morning I checked with my mirror and sure enough the first reflection point for the center channel is the exact same place on the side walls as it is for my mains so I'm wondering if the issue with speech from the center channel is because it's a longer reflection to the side walls from the center channel, enough to hurt intelligibility.

When I get around today to turning my projector on I'm going to run those scenes with the primary reflection panels in place and go back and forth and see if there is a difference. I bet at the end of the day I'll have to take off the panels for music and put them back for tv/movies and I'm ok with that.


Now, I am open to the fact that it could all be in my head. I've done enough blind tests to know that the brain can trick us very, very easily when doing comparisons like this. What I really need is someone to remove/add those first reflection panels and I keep my eyes closed so I can't be biased (for whatever reason).

Still, to me the difference for music seems pronounced enough (and I swear it's not i my head, haha) that I'm very curious what you guys think that have first reflection panels and listen to 2 channel music. Can some of you guys try this out and post your findings?

Andrew @Gorilla83 I'm very curious how 2 channel would be affected in your room with taking out the first reflection point panels but leaving up all the other treatments since you have the big GTG coming up. @Gooddoc I can't remember, do you have first reflection point panels in your room?

Andrew, I think the Yorkville's dispersion is similar to the 215's right? I'd be very interested to see what you think if you get a second to try it out. I know you must be crazy busy getting ready for the GTG though...

Brandon @beastaudio how about you? I know your room is very well treated. In the end it could just be my room/seating position etc. The edge of the outside baffle of my mains is 26" from the side walls and maybe that's just the right distance to benefit from the first reflection. Maybe the speakers are far enough that the reflection adds soundstage size and liveliness but not too far which could cause that reflection to clutter the sound???

Craig @craig john and David @dlbeck I think your 2 rooms are the best sounding rooms I have been in and both are obviously very well treated. Is it even possible for you guys to remove ONLY the first reflection panels for 2 channel music? David if I remember right your first reflection panels have those slats in them (is that for diffusion?) so that right there might be taking care of the issue I have in my room with the first panel absorbing everything.

Michael @desertdome I'd love to get your thoughts too since it was your post and link that got me thinking about this and trying it out for myself.



Whatever the case I am really loving the lively (not bright, it's hard to describe) and larger soundstage so I don't think I'm going back. To be clear, music sounded good with all of the combinations of panels but I really believe I'm on to something, at least in my room. I'd ask my wife to do a blind test for me but I know better, haha.

After typing all this I tried it one more time and yep, I like it much better without the 2 first reflection panels.

If anyone else tries taking out the first reflection panels can you include how close your mains are to your side walls along with your impressions?

I'm tired of typing the words "first reflection panels".
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Last edited by carp; 12-03-2014 at 08:53 AM.
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post #26084 of 37925 Old 12-03-2014, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
So, two days ago I watched the following about the science of the room with Paul Hales after seeing a post with a link from Desertdome.

http://twit.tv/show/home-theater-geeks/164

I saw that AVS had this same interview a while back but I didn't watch the whole thing. The part that really intrigued me was from 43:00 to 45:00 where he talks about a study where they put people in an anechoic chamber and had direct speakers and then other speakers that were meant to mimic the effect of a first reflection from a wall and they gave the participants a volume control to select the volume from the secondary speaker (the speaker that mimicked the first reflection) and the people in the study turned the volume of the reflection speaker as loud or louder than what a first reflection from a hard wall would be.

Now, I think the flaw with this is that music would sound extremely dead and lifeless in an anechoic chamber so any help you could get to mimic a reflection would be a good thing so I figured there may not be much merit to this experiment. I think a better experiment would be to have the speakers outside with the same setup, having the secondary speakers mimicking what would be a wall - or do the experiment in a well treated room and place the secondary speakers right in front of the first reflection panels.

However, I was curious enough to try removing some/all of my treatments and see what would happen with 2 channel music.

At first I took all of them down, both first and second reflections on each side wall and the first reflection of the ceiling panels. I have a total of 7 GIK panels, 2 on each side wall and 3 on the ceiling.

So, with all of the panels taken out I randomly surfed through my music trying out parts of a bunch of different songs. Right a way I didn't really like it as much with all of the panels taken down. Yes, I felt the soundstage was wider but at the same time it became harder to focus on specific instruments/voices etc. and I knew I didn't prefer music this way - which I wasn't surprised, because I remember thinking it was a nice improvement when I put all my treatments in (thanks to Luke Kamp who brought over a bunch of panels so I could test it out before buying a couple years ago).

So, I figured that what Paul Hales is talking about doesn't work in my room but I wanted to be sure. So, I next tried different combinations of panels to see if I liked anything better than my 7 panel setup. I tried the following:

1. Ceiling panels, no wall panels.
2. All wall panels, no ceiling panels.
3. First reflection panels only, nothing else.
4. Second reflection panels only, nothing else.
5. First reflection panels only, nothing else.
6. Ceiling panels and first reflection panels.
7. Ceiling panels and second reflection panels.
8. Finally, back to all 7 panels.

I went back and forth many times since Monday evening. I've been home sick yesterday and today to lots of time to experiment.

Here is what I found. I liked #7 by a significant margin!! So, using the secondary reflection panels and ceiling panels but NO first reflection panels is what my ears liked best.

Second place was #4 (secondary reflection panels up and nothing else) and 3rd place was #8 (all panels in place).

So it would seem in my room that the most important acoustic panel placement is the secondary reflections, in other words, the reflection on each side wall coming from the speaker from the other side of the room. However, even more important is NOT having first reflection panels!!!

The way I would describe the improvement with taking down the first reflection panels is that the soundstage gets bigger and the sound is more "exciting" and pleasing. I went back and forth SO many times with taking on and off the first reflection panel and that was the impression I got every time. Enough to know that I'm not ever using the first reflection panels for 2 channel music again.

So, I figure all is good and I can just take down my first reflection panels and live happily ever after. Not so fast my friend. I was up in the middle of the night last night (can't sleep, just cough like crazy when lying down) watching episodes of The Killing on Netflix. I've watched a bunch of episodes recently so I'm very familiar with how the show sounds. Last night for the first time I found myself straining to hear some of the dialogue in a couple scenes. Nothing major, but enough to notice. The speech intelligibility in my room is quite good for not having an AT setup (ha, as long as i don't recline... which sucks a bit...) but this was noticeably not great. So this morning I checked with my mirror and sure enough the first reflection point for the center channel is the exact same place on the side walls as it is for my mains so I'm wondering if the issue with speech from the center channel is because it's a longer reflection to the side walls from the center channel, enough to hurt intelligibility.

When I get around today to turning my projector on I'm going to run those scenes with the primary reflection panels in place and go back and forth and see if there is a difference. I bet at the end of the day I'll have to take off the panels for music and put them back for tv/movies and I'm ok with that.


Now, I am open to the fact that it could all be in my head. I've done enough blind tests to know that the brain can trick us very, very easily when doing comparisons like this. What I really need is someone to remove/add those first reflection panels and I keep my eyes closed so I can't be biased (for whatever reason).

Still, to me the difference for music seems pronounced enough (and I swear it's not i my head, haha) that I'm very curious what you guys think that have first reflection panels and listen to 2 channel music. Can some of you guys try this out and post your findings?

Andrew @Gorilla83 I'm very curious how 2 channel would be affected in your room with taking out the first reflection point panels but leaving up all the other treatments since you have the big GTG coming up. @Gooddoc I can't remember, do you have first reflection point panels in your room?

Andrew, I think the Yorkville's dispersion is similar to the 215's right? I'd be very interested to see what you think if you get a second to try it out. I know you must be crazy busy getting ready for the GTG though...

Brandon @beastaudio how about you? I know your room is very well treated. In the end it could just be my room/seating position etc. The edge of the outside baffle of my mains is 26" from the side walls and maybe that's just the right distance to benefit from the first reflection. Maybe the speakers are far enough that the reflection adds soundstage size and liveliness but not too far which could cause that reflection to clutter the sound???

Craig @craig john and David @dlbeck I think your 2 rooms are the best sounding rooms I have been in and both are obviously very well treated. Is it even possible for you guys to remove ONLY the first reflection panels for 2 channel music? David if I remember right your first reflection panels have those slats in them (is that for diffusion?) so that right there might be taking care of the issue I have in my room with the first panel absorbing everything.

Michael @desertdome I'd love to get your thoughts too since it was your post and link that got me thinking about this and trying it out for myself.



Whatever the case I am really loving the lively (not bright, it's hard to describe) and larger soundstage so I don't think I'm going back. To be clear, music sounded good with all of the combinations of panels but I really believe I'm on to something, at least in my room. I'd ask my wife to do a blind test for me but I know better, haha.

After typing all this I tried it one more time and yep, I like it much better without the 2 first reflection panels.

If anyone else tries taking out the first reflection panels can you include how close your mains are to your side walls along with your impressions?

I'm tired of typing the words "first reflection panels".
Great write up Carp. I assume your first reflection point panels are absorption. I know some folks advocate for first reflection point panels to be diffusion or mixture of diffusion/absorption. Maybe something to think about and tinker with
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post #26085 of 37925 Old 12-03-2014, 08:58 AM
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I also noticed that when I put my mirror on the wall that not only can I see the center channel horn, but also that part of the driver from the center channel is blocked in the mirror by the 215 speaker since my 215's front baffles are 48 inches from the front wall. I assume I should move my center channel forward so that none of the primary reflections from the center channel (even if it's just part of the drivers on each side) are hitting the 215's??

When I go AT it won't matter since with the 212 center being vertical (meaning it will be "skinnier") none of the primary reflection will hit the 215's, all of the reflection will go to the side walls.
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post #26086 of 37925 Old 12-03-2014, 09:01 AM
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Great write up Carp. I assume your first reflection point panels are absorption. I know some folks advocate for first reflection point panels to be diffusion or mixture of diffusion/absorption. Maybe something to think about and tinker with
Thanks!

Yeah, I agree and that's why I think David dlbeck is already good since he has those panels that have those wooden slats in them.

I have to try it... I'm all about any incremental improvement I can get. The other factor is that on one side wall I have a book case. Half of the first reflection on that side wall is the edge of the book case and the other half is the hard wall.

I'd like to have perfect symmetry between the left and right side walls, so maybe some diffusion panels or panels with slats is the way to go!
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post #26087 of 37925 Old 12-03-2014, 09:51 AM
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@Gooddoc I can't remember, do you have first reflection point panels in your room?
No, for the reasons you don't anymore. I have perfect dialogue clarity and no center channel issues because I don't have one .

The issue of room treatments has several camps with different viewpoints and everyone has to decide for themselves who is right. On the one end of the spectrum you have Danley and Geddes and on the other end you have Toole and Linkwitz. Currently, I believe in the latter.
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post #26088 of 37925 Old 12-03-2014, 10:10 AM
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No, for the reasons you don't anymore. I have perfect dialogue clarity and no center channel issues because I don't have one .

The issue of room treatments has several camps with different viewpoints and everyone has to decide for themselves who is right. On the one end of the spectrum you have Danley and Geddes and on the other end you have Toole and Linkwitz. Currently, I believe in the latter.
I take it you also found that 2 channel music was better without first reflection panels?

What other treatments do you have? Anything on the ceiling? I see in your avatar corner bass traps and a front wall panel.
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post #26089 of 37925 Old 12-03-2014, 10:40 AM
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The acoustic designer for my room believes in NOT absorbing all of the energy at the first reflection point. That is why I use Quest Perfsorber in that location. It is a unique product that has both absorption and diffusion properties. I am sure that slats will do something similar but not at the exact same position as the Perfsorber does.

I have to say I am very pleased with the result. It opens up the soundstage and has enough liveliness for my taste. I did not know at the time if this was the proper choice but I am very glad I went ahead and did it this way.

I am sure everyone will have a different subjective opinion about this.

I have been listening to a ton of concerts lately on Blu Ray and Palladia HD. In the last few weeks I went through Bruce Springsteen and the E street band. Crossroads with Eric Clapton. Live from Daryl's House (several episodes), Jools Holland (several episodes), John Mayer Trio, The Who, Rolling Stones (Ladies and Gentlemen), Joe Bonamassa, Muse, The Killers, and way too many others to mention.
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post #26090 of 37925 Old 12-03-2014, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
So, two days ago I watched the following about the science of the room with Paul Hales after seeing a post with a link from Desertdome.

http://twit.tv/show/home-theater-geeks/164

I saw that AVS had this same interview a while back but I didn't watch the whole thing. The part that really intrigued me was from 43:00 to 45:00 where he talks about a study where they put people in an anechoic chamber and had direct speakers and then other speakers that were meant to mimic the effect of a first reflection from a wall and they gave the participants a volume control to select the volume from the secondary speaker (the speaker that mimicked the first reflection) and the people in the study turned the volume of the reflection speaker as loud or louder than what a first reflection from a hard wall would be.

Now, I think the flaw with this is that music would sound extremely dead and lifeless in an anechoic chamber so any help you could get to mimic a reflection would be a good thing so I figured there may not be much merit to this experiment. I think a better experiment would be to have the speakers outside with the same setup, having the secondary speakers mimicking what would be a wall - or do the experiment in a well treated room and place the secondary speakers right in front of the first reflection panels.

However, I was curious enough to try removing some/all of my treatments and see what would happen with 2 channel music.

At first I took all of them down, both first and second reflections on each side wall and the first reflection of the ceiling panels. I have a total of 7 GIK panels, 2 on each side wall and 3 on the ceiling.

So, with all of the panels taken out I randomly surfed through my music trying out parts of a bunch of different songs. Right a way I didn't really like it as much with all of the panels taken down. Yes, I felt the soundstage was wider but at the same time it became harder to focus on specific instruments/voices etc. and I knew I didn't prefer music this way - which I wasn't surprised, because I remember thinking it was a nice improvement when I put all my treatments in (thanks to Luke Kamp who brought over a bunch of panels so I could test it out before buying a couple years ago).

So, I figured that what Paul Hales is talking about doesn't work in my room but I wanted to be sure. So, I next tried different combinations of panels to see if I liked anything better than my 7 panel setup. I tried the following:

1. Ceiling panels, no wall panels.
2. All wall panels, no ceiling panels.
3. First reflection panels only, nothing else.
4. Second reflection panels only, nothing else.
5. First reflection panels only, nothing else.
6. Ceiling panels and first reflection panels.
7. Ceiling panels and second reflection panels.
8. Finally, back to all 7 panels.

I went back and forth many times since Monday evening. I've been home sick yesterday and today to lots of time to experiment.

Here is what I found. I liked #7 by a significant margin!! So, using the secondary reflection panels and ceiling panels but NO first reflection panels is what my ears liked best.

Second place was #4 (secondary reflection panels up and nothing else) and 3rd place was #8 (all panels in place).

So it would seem in my room that the most important acoustic panel placement is the secondary reflections, in other words, the reflection on each side wall coming from the speaker from the other side of the room. However, even more important is NOT having first reflection panels!!!

The way I would describe the improvement with taking down the first reflection panels is that the soundstage gets bigger and the sound is more "exciting" and pleasing. I went back and forth SO many times with taking on and off the first reflection panel and that was the impression I got every time. Enough to know that I'm not ever using the first reflection panels for 2 channel music again.

So, I figure all is good and I can just take down my first reflection panels and live happily ever after. Not so fast my friend. I was up in the middle of the night last night (can't sleep, just cough like crazy when lying down) watching episodes of The Killing on Netflix. I've watched a bunch of episodes recently so I'm very familiar with how the show sounds. Last night for the first time I found myself straining to hear some of the dialogue in a couple scenes. Nothing major, but enough to notice. The speech intelligibility in my room is quite good for not having an AT setup (ha, as long as i don't recline... which sucks a bit...) but this was noticeably not great. So this morning I checked with my mirror and sure enough the first reflection point for the center channel is the exact same place on the side walls as it is for my mains so I'm wondering if the issue with speech from the center channel is because it's a longer reflection to the side walls from the center channel, enough to hurt intelligibility.

When I get around today to turning my projector on I'm going to run those scenes with the primary reflection panels in place and go back and forth and see if there is a difference. I bet at the end of the day I'll have to take off the panels for music and put them back for tv/movies and I'm ok with that.


Now, I am open to the fact that it could all be in my head. I've done enough blind tests to know that the brain can trick us very, very easily when doing comparisons like this. What I really need is someone to remove/add those first reflection panels and I keep my eyes closed so I can't be biased (for whatever reason).

Still, to me the difference for music seems pronounced enough (and I swear it's not i my head, haha) that I'm very curious what you guys think that have first reflection panels and listen to 2 channel music. Can some of you guys try this out and post your findings?

Andrew @Gorilla83 I'm very curious how 2 channel would be affected in your room with taking out the first reflection point panels but leaving up all the other treatments since you have the big GTG coming up. @Gooddoc I can't remember, do you have first reflection point panels in your room?

Andrew, I think the Yorkville's dispersion is similar to the 215's right? I'd be very interested to see what you think if you get a second to try it out. I know you must be crazy busy getting ready for the GTG though...

Brandon @beastaudio how about you? I know your room is very well treated. In the end it could just be my room/seating position etc. The edge of the outside baffle of my mains is 26" from the side walls and maybe that's just the right distance to benefit from the first reflection. Maybe the speakers are far enough that the reflection adds soundstage size and liveliness but not too far which could cause that reflection to clutter the sound???

Craig @craig john and David @dlbeck I think your 2 rooms are the best sounding rooms I have been in and both are obviously very well treated. Is it even possible for you guys to remove ONLY the first reflection panels for 2 channel music? David if I remember right your first reflection panels have those slats in them (is that for diffusion?) so that right there might be taking care of the issue I have in my room with the first panel absorbing everything.

Michael @desertdome I'd love to get your thoughts too since it was your post and link that got me thinking about this and trying it out for myself.



Whatever the case I am really loving the lively (not bright, it's hard to describe) and larger soundstage so I don't think I'm going back. To be clear, music sounded good with all of the combinations of panels but I really believe I'm on to something, at least in my room. I'd ask my wife to do a blind test for me but I know better, haha.

After typing all this I tried it one more time and yep, I like it much better without the 2 first reflection panels.

If anyone else tries taking out the first reflection panels can you include how close your mains are to your side walls along with your impressions?

I'm tired of typing the words "first reflection panels".
I have been wanting to experiment with this as I have close to 20 panels (some just for aesthetics) on the 29 foot side walls of my room. Obviously front wall absorption panels are not going anywhere, but I want to measure and test my impulse graphs with all and nothing. Guess I will try out no first reflection panels while I am at it too

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post #26091 of 37925 Old 12-03-2014, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jedimastergrant View Post
The acoustic designer for my room believes in NOT absorbing all of the energy at the first reflection point. That is why I use Quest Perfsorber in that location. It is a unique product that has both absorption and diffusion properties. I am sure that slats will do something similar but not at the exact same position as the Perfsorber does.

I have to say I am very pleased with the result. It opens up the soundstage and has enough liveliness for my taste. I did not know at the time if this was the proper choice but I am very glad I went ahead and did it this way.

I am sure everyone will have a different subjective opinion about this.

I have been listening to a ton of concerts lately on Blu Ray and Palladia HD. In the last few weeks I went through Bruce Springsteen and the E street band. Crossroads with Eric Clapton. Live from Daryl's House (several episodes), Jools Holland (several episodes), John Mayer Trio, The Who, Rolling Stones (Ladies and Gentlemen), Joe Bonamassa, Muse, The Killers, and way too many others to mention.

Ah I should have asked you about this a long time ago. I just assumed you had absorption only at the first reflection points and I thought it worked well in your room - now I see why.
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post #26092 of 37925 Old 12-03-2014, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
I have been wanting to experiment with this as I have close to 20 panels (some just for aesthetics) on the 29 foot side walls of my room. Obviously front wall absorption panels are not going anywhere, but I want to measure and test my impulse graphs with all and nothing. Guess I will try out no first reflection panels while I am at it too
Let me know what you think, the more I listen and go back and forth the larger the difference between the two becomes - in a good way.
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post #26093 of 37925 Old 12-03-2014, 03:12 PM
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Hey Principle,

I'm too sick to blow a whistle for the school kids at gym to run lines, so instead I stayed home and ran lines myself hanging and taking down AT panels all day long yesterday and today.

Sincerly Coach Carp.





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post #26094 of 37925 Old 12-03-2014, 03:24 PM
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Has anyone put the Single 8HT-lp's in ceiling? How's the dispersion? The only thing preventing me from seriously considering JTR for my new build is the need for Atmos.

Also, how's the build quality on JTR's? I don't care about aesthetics, but cabinet resonance is a concern.
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post #26095 of 37925 Old 12-03-2014, 03:28 PM
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An African Bull Elephant could use ANY JTR speaker as a training stand --- with confidence.

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post #26096 of 37925 Old 12-03-2014, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin_Can View Post
Has anyone put the Single 8HT-lp's in ceiling? How's the dispersion? The only thing preventing me from seriously considering JTR for my new build is the need for Atmos.

Also, how's the build quality on JTR's? I don't care about aesthetics, but cabinet resonance is a concern.
JTR speakers are well built. Mine came bare (I will veneer them) and the cabinet construction was impressive and I'm an advanced hobbyist woodworker so not easily impressed. No issues with cabinet resonance on the speakers.

I have the Slanted 8s and have the rears in the ceiling and the sides on the walls. Very good dispersion and a great surround speaker. I wouldn't use them for mains but as surrounds, they're great.
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post #26097 of 37925 Old 12-03-2014, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Hey Principle,

I'm too sick to blow a whistle for the school kids at gym to run lines, so instead I stayed home and ran lines myself hanging and taking down AT panels all day long yesterday and today.

Sincerly Coach Carp.




Haha, funny because it's true. When I'm sick I can't function at school but I can still find the strength to mess with my room.

I do have to say I'm a bit concerned about my lungs because I've never had this feeling before. It feels like something heavy is on my lungs and it hurts to take full breaths. I've never had bronchitis, is this what it feels like?
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post #26098 of 37925 Old 12-03-2014, 03:59 PM
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dgage - please let me know how you like the D-Soinc.
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post #26099 of 37925 Old 12-03-2014, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
I do have to say I'm a bit concerned about my lungs because I've never had this feeling before. It feels like something heavy is on my lungs and it hurts to take full breaths. I've never had bronchitis, is this what it feels like?
I had that same feeling last summer .................Pneumonia

UPS just dropped 3 more 242's for my ceiling to go along with the other 3 .

The panels on the ceiling have made the most positive effect on my rec rm .

I thought I read somewhere where Stevie Ray Vaughan recorded his albums in a dead environment and that may be why I always thought his music sounded better than most recordings in a untreated rm.

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post #26100 of 37925 Old 12-03-2014, 05:01 PM
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dgage - please let me know how you like the D-Soni-c.
Looks like that's going to have to wait. The amp definitely looks nice and well built. But my initial hooking up to my Sherbourne 7030 preamp didn't go so well. Hooking up the RCA resulted in quite loud "feedback" and I could barely hear the bluray sound. So then I hooked up via XLR and there was limited/no background noise but the volume was quite low...even with the volume turned all the way up. It very well could be the preamp so I'll break out my measurement preamp and see how that works. Thanks for the quick shipment...I'll let you know how it goes when I get a chance to play with it more.
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