Official JTR speaker thread - Page 874 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #26191 of 26425 Old 12-02-2014, 09:56 PM
AVS Special Member
 
N8DOGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 5,950
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 286 Post(s)
Liked: 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
From who?


I've not seen 228HT's sell for $800 used?


Jeff's yearly price increase provides a little insulation against loss for people who purchase at introductory costs.
for 1600$ used. 1000$ for the old T12's and 600$ for the upgrades silly!

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

N8DOGG is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #26192 of 26425 Old 12-02-2014, 10:31 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Frank D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,355
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by newc33 View Post
Hey guys just chiming in here. I don't have a full review but just wanted to say I'm still really enjoying my new 228s, especially for movies they are amazing.

I noticed that they seem a lot louder than my ascend 340s did even at the same levels. I seem to notice it with music and maybe a little more with movies. I even double checked with pink noise and sure enough there right at 85db give or take 1. Has anyone else noticed the 228s seemed louder than a previous speaker?

Another thing I noticed is that I have turned my LFE channel down 2db from what I used with the ascends (4db Hot) and like the sound better. I'm thinking I get more punch in the 100-1000hz range that I wasn't getting before so running the bass 6db hot gave me a false sense of getting more impact, even though I wasn't missing the impact down low where I thought I was. Does that make sense? Lol
Looking forward to your full review!
Frank D is offline  
post #26193 of 26425 Old 12-02-2014, 11:32 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jbrown15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 6,657
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1289 Post(s)
Liked: 1218
Official JTR speaker thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
From who?


I've not seen 228HT's sell for $800 used?


Jeff's yearly price increase provides a little insulation against loss for people who purchase at introductory costs.

Yeah I sold my 228's to jparker for $2900 for three. I know I could have gotten $3000 if I really wanted too. But I was glad to see them go to someone who'd really enjoy them.

Last edited by jbrown15; 12-02-2014 at 11:35 PM.
jbrown15 is online now  
post #26194 of 26425 Old 12-03-2014, 09:18 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 188
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 116 Post(s)
Liked: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Yeah I sold my 228's to jparker for $2900 for three. I know I could have gotten $3000 if I really wanted too. But I was glad to see them go to someone who'd really enjoy them.
Which JTR's are you running now? ;-)
AVSF458 is online now  
post #26195 of 26425 Old 12-03-2014, 09:48 AM
AVS Special Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 5,689
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 693 Post(s)
Liked: 624
So, two days ago I watched the following about the science of the room with Paul Hales after seeing a post with a link from Desertdome.

http://twit.tv/show/home-theater-geeks/164

I saw that AVS had this same interview a while back but I didn't watch the whole thing. The part that really intrigued me was from 43:00 to 45:00 where he talks about a study where they put people in an anechoic chamber and had direct speakers and then other speakers that were meant to mimic the effect of a first reflection from a wall and they gave the participants a volume control to select the volume from the secondary speaker (the speaker that mimicked the first reflection) and the people in the study turned the volume of the reflection speaker as loud or louder than what a first reflection from a hard wall would be.

Now, I think the flaw with this is that music would sound extremely dead and lifeless in an anechoic chamber so any help you could get to mimic a reflection would be a good thing so I figured there may not be much merit to this experiment. I think a better experiment would be to have the speakers outside with the same setup, having the secondary speakers mimicking what would be a wall - or do the experiment in a well treated room and place the secondary speakers right in front of the first reflection panels.

However, I was curious enough to try removing some/all of my treatments and see what would happen with 2 channel music.

At first I took all of them down, both first and second reflections on each side wall and the first reflection of the ceiling panels. I have a total of 7 GIK panels, 2 on each side wall and 3 on the ceiling.

So, with all of the panels taken out I randomly surfed through my music trying out parts of a bunch of different songs. Right a way I didn't really like it as much with all of the panels taken down. Yes, I felt the soundstage was wider but at the same time it became harder to focus on specific instruments/voices etc. and I knew I didn't prefer music this way - which I wasn't surprised, because I remember thinking it was a nice improvement when I put all my treatments in (thanks to Luke Kamp who brought over a bunch of panels so I could test it out before buying a couple years ago).

So, I figured that what Paul Hales is talking about doesn't work in my room but I wanted to be sure. So, I next tried different combinations of panels to see if I liked anything better than my 7 panel setup. I tried the following:

1. Ceiling panels, no wall panels.
2. All wall panels, no ceiling panels.
3. First reflection panels only, nothing else.
4. Second reflection panels only, nothing else.
5. First reflection panels only, nothing else.
6. Ceiling panels and first reflection panels.
7. Ceiling panels and second reflection panels.
8. Finally, back to all 7 panels.

I went back and forth many times since Monday evening. I've been home sick yesterday and today to lots of time to experiment.

Here is what I found. I liked #7 by a significant margin!! So, using the secondary reflection panels and ceiling panels but NO first reflection panels is what my ears liked best.

Second place was #4 (secondary reflection panels up and nothing else) and 3rd place was #8 (all panels in place).

So it would seem in my room that the most important acoustic panel placement is the secondary reflections, in other words, the reflection on each side wall coming from the speaker from the other side of the room. However, even more important is NOT having first reflection panels!!!

The way I would describe the improvement with taking down the first reflection panels is that the soundstage gets bigger and the sound is more "exciting" and pleasing. I went back and forth SO many times with taking on and off the first reflection panel and that was the impression I got every time. Enough to know that I'm not ever using the first reflection panels for 2 channel music again.

So, I figure all is good and I can just take down my first reflection panels and live happily ever after. Not so fast my friend. I was up in the middle of the night last night (can't sleep, just cough like crazy when lying down) watching episodes of The Killing on Netflix. I've watched a bunch of episodes recently so I'm very familiar with how the show sounds. Last night for the first time I found myself straining to hear some of the dialogue in a couple scenes. Nothing major, but enough to notice. The speech intelligibility in my room is quite good for not having an AT setup (ha, as long as i don't recline... which sucks a bit...) but this was noticeably not great. So this morning I checked with my mirror and sure enough the first reflection point for the center channel is the exact same place on the side walls as it is for my mains so I'm wondering if the issue with speech from the center channel is because it's a longer reflection to the side walls from the center channel, enough to hurt intelligibility.

When I get around today to turning my projector on I'm going to run those scenes with the primary reflection panels in place and go back and forth and see if there is a difference. I bet at the end of the day I'll have to take off the panels for music and put them back for tv/movies and I'm ok with that.


Now, I am open to the fact that it could all be in my head. I've done enough blind tests to know that the brain can trick us very, very easily when doing comparisons like this. What I really need is someone to remove/add those first reflection panels and I keep my eyes closed so I can't be biased (for whatever reason).

Still, to me the difference for music seems pronounced enough (and I swear it's not i my head, haha) that I'm very curious what you guys think that have first reflection panels and listen to 2 channel music. Can some of you guys try this out and post your findings?

Andrew @Gorilla83 I'm very curious how 2 channel would be affected in your room with taking out the first reflection point panels but leaving up all the other treatments since you have the big GTG coming up. @Gooddoc I can't remember, do you have first reflection point panels in your room?

Andrew, I think the Yorkville's dispersion is similar to the 215's right? I'd be very interested to see what you think if you get a second to try it out. I know you must be crazy busy getting ready for the GTG though...

Brandon @beastaudio how about you? I know your room is very well treated. In the end it could just be my room/seating position etc. The edge of the outside baffle of my mains is 26" from the side walls and maybe that's just the right distance to benefit from the first reflection. Maybe the speakers are far enough that the reflection adds soundstage size and liveliness but not too far which could cause that reflection to clutter the sound???

Craig @craig john and David @dlbeck I think your 2 rooms are the best sounding rooms I have been in and both are obviously very well treated. Is it even possible for you guys to remove ONLY the first reflection panels for 2 channel music? David if I remember right your first reflection panels have those slats in them (is that for diffusion?) so that right there might be taking care of the issue I have in my room with the first panel absorbing everything.

Michael @desertdome I'd love to get your thoughts too since it was your post and link that got me thinking about this and trying it out for myself.



Whatever the case I am really loving the lively (not bright, it's hard to describe) and larger soundstage so I don't think I'm going back. To be clear, music sounded good with all of the combinations of panels but I really believe I'm on to something, at least in my room. I'd ask my wife to do a blind test for me but I know better, haha.

After typing all this I tried it one more time and yep, I like it much better without the 2 first reflection panels.

If anyone else tries taking out the first reflection panels can you include how close your mains are to your side walls along with your impressions?

I'm tired of typing the words "first reflection panels".
Frohlich, dgage and Bunga99 like this.

Last edited by carp; 12-03-2014 at 09:53 AM.
carp is offline  
post #26196 of 26425 Old 12-03-2014, 09:57 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Frohlich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 2,218
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 283 Post(s)
Liked: 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
So, two days ago I watched the following about the science of the room with Paul Hales after seeing a post with a link from Desertdome.

http://twit.tv/show/home-theater-geeks/164

I saw that AVS had this same interview a while back but I didn't watch the whole thing. The part that really intrigued me was from 43:00 to 45:00 where he talks about a study where they put people in an anechoic chamber and had direct speakers and then other speakers that were meant to mimic the effect of a first reflection from a wall and they gave the participants a volume control to select the volume from the secondary speaker (the speaker that mimicked the first reflection) and the people in the study turned the volume of the reflection speaker as loud or louder than what a first reflection from a hard wall would be.

Now, I think the flaw with this is that music would sound extremely dead and lifeless in an anechoic chamber so any help you could get to mimic a reflection would be a good thing so I figured there may not be much merit to this experiment. I think a better experiment would be to have the speakers outside with the same setup, having the secondary speakers mimicking what would be a wall - or do the experiment in a well treated room and place the secondary speakers right in front of the first reflection panels.

However, I was curious enough to try removing some/all of my treatments and see what would happen with 2 channel music.

At first I took all of them down, both first and second reflections on each side wall and the first reflection of the ceiling panels. I have a total of 7 GIK panels, 2 on each side wall and 3 on the ceiling.

So, with all of the panels taken out I randomly surfed through my music trying out parts of a bunch of different songs. Right a way I didn't really like it as much with all of the panels taken down. Yes, I felt the soundstage was wider but at the same time it became harder to focus on specific instruments/voices etc. and I knew I didn't prefer music this way - which I wasn't surprised, because I remember thinking it was a nice improvement when I put all my treatments in (thanks to Luke Kamp who brought over a bunch of panels so I could test it out before buying a couple years ago).

So, I figured that what Paul Hales is talking about doesn't work in my room but I wanted to be sure. So, I next tried different combinations of panels to see if I liked anything better than my 7 panel setup. I tried the following:

1. Ceiling panels, no wall panels.
2. All wall panels, no ceiling panels.
3. First reflection panels only, nothing else.
4. Second reflection panels only, nothing else.
5. First reflection panels only, nothing else.
6. Ceiling panels and first reflection panels.
7. Ceiling panels and second reflection panels.
8. Finally, back to all 7 panels.

I went back and forth many times since Monday evening. I've been home sick yesterday and today to lots of time to experiment.

Here is what I found. I liked #7 by a significant margin!! So, using the secondary reflection panels and ceiling panels but NO first reflection panels is what my ears liked best.

Second place was #4 (secondary reflection panels up and nothing else) and 3rd place was #8 (all panels in place).

So it would seem in my room that the most important acoustic panel placement is the secondary reflections, in other words, the reflection on each side wall coming from the speaker from the other side of the room. However, even more important is NOT having first reflection panels!!!

The way I would describe the improvement with taking down the first reflection panels is that the soundstage gets bigger and the sound is more "exciting" and pleasing. I went back and forth SO many times with taking on and off the first reflection panel and that was the impression I got every time. Enough to know that I'm not ever using the first reflection panels for 2 channel music again.

So, I figure all is good and I can just take down my first reflection panels and live happily ever after. Not so fast my friend. I was up in the middle of the night last night (can't sleep, just cough like crazy when lying down) watching episodes of The Killing on Netflix. I've watched a bunch of episodes recently so I'm very familiar with how the show sounds. Last night for the first time I found myself straining to hear some of the dialogue in a couple scenes. Nothing major, but enough to notice. The speech intelligibility in my room is quite good for not having an AT setup (ha, as long as i don't recline... which sucks a bit...) but this was noticeably not great. So this morning I checked with my mirror and sure enough the first reflection point for the center channel is the exact same place on the side walls as it is for my mains so I'm wondering if the issue with speech from the center channel is because it's a longer reflection to the side walls from the center channel, enough to hurt intelligibility.

When I get around today to turning my projector on I'm going to run those scenes with the primary reflection panels in place and go back and forth and see if there is a difference. I bet at the end of the day I'll have to take off the panels for music and put them back for tv/movies and I'm ok with that.


Now, I am open to the fact that it could all be in my head. I've done enough blind tests to know that the brain can trick us very, very easily when doing comparisons like this. What I really need is someone to remove/add those first reflection panels and I keep my eyes closed so I can't be biased (for whatever reason).

Still, to me the difference for music seems pronounced enough (and I swear it's not i my head, haha) that I'm very curious what you guys think that have first reflection panels and listen to 2 channel music. Can some of you guys try this out and post your findings?

Andrew @Gorilla83 I'm very curious how 2 channel would be affected in your room with taking out the first reflection point panels but leaving up all the other treatments since you have the big GTG coming up. @Gooddoc I can't remember, do you have first reflection point panels in your room?

Andrew, I think the Yorkville's dispersion is similar to the 215's right? I'd be very interested to see what you think if you get a second to try it out. I know you must be crazy busy getting ready for the GTG though...

Brandon @beastaudio how about you? I know your room is very well treated. In the end it could just be my room/seating position etc. The edge of the outside baffle of my mains is 26" from the side walls and maybe that's just the right distance to benefit from the first reflection. Maybe the speakers are far enough that the reflection adds soundstage size and liveliness but not too far which could cause that reflection to clutter the sound???

Craig @craig john and David @dlbeck I think your 2 rooms are the best sounding rooms I have been in and both are obviously very well treated. Is it even possible for you guys to remove ONLY the first reflection panels for 2 channel music? David if I remember right your first reflection panels have those slats in them (is that for diffusion?) so that right there might be taking care of the issue I have in my room with the first panel absorbing everything.

Michael @desertdome I'd love to get your thoughts too since it was your post and link that got me thinking about this and trying it out for myself.



Whatever the case I am really loving the lively (not bright, it's hard to describe) and larger soundstage so I don't think I'm going back. To be clear, music sounded good with all of the combinations of panels but I really believe I'm on to something, at least in my room. I'd ask my wife to do a blind test for me but I know better, haha.

After typing all this I tried it one more time and yep, I like it much better without the 2 first reflection panels.

If anyone else tries taking out the first reflection panels can you include how close your mains are to your side walls along with your impressions?

I'm tired of typing the words "first reflection panels".
Great write up Carp. I assume your first reflection point panels are absorption. I know some folks advocate for first reflection point panels to be diffusion or mixture of diffusion/absorption. Maybe something to think about and tinker with
dgage likes this.
Frohlich is online now  
post #26197 of 26425 Old 12-03-2014, 09:58 AM
AVS Special Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 5,689
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 693 Post(s)
Liked: 624
I also noticed that when I put my mirror on the wall that not only can I see the center channel horn, but also that part of the driver from the center channel is blocked in the mirror by the 215 speaker since my 215's front baffles are 48 inches from the front wall. I assume I should move my center channel forward so that none of the primary reflections from the center channel (even if it's just part of the drivers on each side) are hitting the 215's??

When I go AT it won't matter since with the 212 center being vertical (meaning it will be "skinnier") none of the primary reflection will hit the 215's, all of the reflection will go to the side walls.
carp is offline  
post #26198 of 26425 Old 12-03-2014, 10:01 AM
AVS Special Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 5,689
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 693 Post(s)
Liked: 624
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
Great write up Carp. I assume your first reflection point panels are absorption. I know some folks advocate for first reflection point panels to be diffusion or mixture of diffusion/absorption. Maybe something to think about and tinker with
Thanks!

Yeah, I agree and that's why I think David dlbeck is already good since he has those panels that have those wooden slats in them.

I have to try it... I'm all about any incremental improvement I can get. The other factor is that on one side wall I have a book case. Half of the first reflection on that side wall is the edge of the book case and the other half is the hard wall.

I'd like to have perfect symmetry between the left and right side walls, so maybe some diffusion panels or panels with slats is the way to go!
carp is offline  
post #26199 of 26425 Old 12-03-2014, 10:51 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,274
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 658 Post(s)
Liked: 433
Quote:
@Gooddoc I can't remember, do you have first reflection point panels in your room?
No, for the reasons you don't anymore. I have perfect dialogue clarity and no center channel issues because I don't have one .

The issue of room treatments has several camps with different viewpoints and everyone has to decide for themselves who is right. On the one end of the spectrum you have Danley and Geddes and on the other end you have Toole and Linkwitz. Currently, I believe in the latter.
Gooddoc is online now  
post #26200 of 26425 Old 12-03-2014, 11:10 AM
AVS Special Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 5,689
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 693 Post(s)
Liked: 624
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
No, for the reasons you don't anymore. I have perfect dialogue clarity and no center channel issues because I don't have one .

The issue of room treatments has several camps with different viewpoints and everyone has to decide for themselves who is right. On the one end of the spectrum you have Danley and Geddes and on the other end you have Toole and Linkwitz. Currently, I believe in the latter.
I take it you also found that 2 channel music was better without first reflection panels?

What other treatments do you have? Anything on the ceiling? I see in your avatar corner bass traps and a front wall panel.
carp is offline  
post #26201 of 26425 Old 12-03-2014, 11:40 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jedimastergrant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 1,917
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 55 Post(s)
Liked: 65
The acoustic designer for my room believes in NOT absorbing all of the energy at the first reflection point. That is why I use Quest Perfsorber in that location. It is a unique product that has both absorption and diffusion properties. I am sure that slats will do something similar but not at the exact same position as the Perfsorber does.

I have to say I am very pleased with the result. It opens up the soundstage and has enough liveliness for my taste. I did not know at the time if this was the proper choice but I am very glad I went ahead and did it this way.

I am sure everyone will have a different subjective opinion about this.

I have been listening to a ton of concerts lately on Blu Ray and Palladia HD. In the last few weeks I went through Bruce Springsteen and the E street band. Crossroads with Eric Clapton. Live from Daryl's House (several episodes), Jools Holland (several episodes), John Mayer Trio, The Who, Rolling Stones (Ladies and Gentlemen), Joe Bonamassa, Muse, The Killers, and way too many others to mention.
jedimastergrant is offline  
post #26202 of 26425 Old 12-03-2014, 12:07 PM
Say No to Auto EQ
 
beastaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Western NC
Posts: 8,170
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 946 Post(s)
Liked: 1021
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
So, two days ago I watched the following about the science of the room with Paul Hales after seeing a post with a link from Desertdome.

http://twit.tv/show/home-theater-geeks/164

I saw that AVS had this same interview a while back but I didn't watch the whole thing. The part that really intrigued me was from 43:00 to 45:00 where he talks about a study where they put people in an anechoic chamber and had direct speakers and then other speakers that were meant to mimic the effect of a first reflection from a wall and they gave the participants a volume control to select the volume from the secondary speaker (the speaker that mimicked the first reflection) and the people in the study turned the volume of the reflection speaker as loud or louder than what a first reflection from a hard wall would be.

Now, I think the flaw with this is that music would sound extremely dead and lifeless in an anechoic chamber so any help you could get to mimic a reflection would be a good thing so I figured there may not be much merit to this experiment. I think a better experiment would be to have the speakers outside with the same setup, having the secondary speakers mimicking what would be a wall - or do the experiment in a well treated room and place the secondary speakers right in front of the first reflection panels.

However, I was curious enough to try removing some/all of my treatments and see what would happen with 2 channel music.

At first I took all of them down, both first and second reflections on each side wall and the first reflection of the ceiling panels. I have a total of 7 GIK panels, 2 on each side wall and 3 on the ceiling.

So, with all of the panels taken out I randomly surfed through my music trying out parts of a bunch of different songs. Right a way I didn't really like it as much with all of the panels taken down. Yes, I felt the soundstage was wider but at the same time it became harder to focus on specific instruments/voices etc. and I knew I didn't prefer music this way - which I wasn't surprised, because I remember thinking it was a nice improvement when I put all my treatments in (thanks to Luke Kamp who brought over a bunch of panels so I could test it out before buying a couple years ago).

So, I figured that what Paul Hales is talking about doesn't work in my room but I wanted to be sure. So, I next tried different combinations of panels to see if I liked anything better than my 7 panel setup. I tried the following:

1. Ceiling panels, no wall panels.
2. All wall panels, no ceiling panels.
3. First reflection panels only, nothing else.
4. Second reflection panels only, nothing else.
5. First reflection panels only, nothing else.
6. Ceiling panels and first reflection panels.
7. Ceiling panels and second reflection panels.
8. Finally, back to all 7 panels.

I went back and forth many times since Monday evening. I've been home sick yesterday and today to lots of time to experiment.

Here is what I found. I liked #7 by a significant margin!! So, using the secondary reflection panels and ceiling panels but NO first reflection panels is what my ears liked best.

Second place was #4 (secondary reflection panels up and nothing else) and 3rd place was #8 (all panels in place).

So it would seem in my room that the most important acoustic panel placement is the secondary reflections, in other words, the reflection on each side wall coming from the speaker from the other side of the room. However, even more important is NOT having first reflection panels!!!

The way I would describe the improvement with taking down the first reflection panels is that the soundstage gets bigger and the sound is more "exciting" and pleasing. I went back and forth SO many times with taking on and off the first reflection panel and that was the impression I got every time. Enough to know that I'm not ever using the first reflection panels for 2 channel music again.

So, I figure all is good and I can just take down my first reflection panels and live happily ever after. Not so fast my friend. I was up in the middle of the night last night (can't sleep, just cough like crazy when lying down) watching episodes of The Killing on Netflix. I've watched a bunch of episodes recently so I'm very familiar with how the show sounds. Last night for the first time I found myself straining to hear some of the dialogue in a couple scenes. Nothing major, but enough to notice. The speech intelligibility in my room is quite good for not having an AT setup (ha, as long as i don't recline... which sucks a bit...) but this was noticeably not great. So this morning I checked with my mirror and sure enough the first reflection point for the center channel is the exact same place on the side walls as it is for my mains so I'm wondering if the issue with speech from the center channel is because it's a longer reflection to the side walls from the center channel, enough to hurt intelligibility.

When I get around today to turning my projector on I'm going to run those scenes with the primary reflection panels in place and go back and forth and see if there is a difference. I bet at the end of the day I'll have to take off the panels for music and put them back for tv/movies and I'm ok with that.


Now, I am open to the fact that it could all be in my head. I've done enough blind tests to know that the brain can trick us very, very easily when doing comparisons like this. What I really need is someone to remove/add those first reflection panels and I keep my eyes closed so I can't be biased (for whatever reason).

Still, to me the difference for music seems pronounced enough (and I swear it's not i my head, haha) that I'm very curious what you guys think that have first reflection panels and listen to 2 channel music. Can some of you guys try this out and post your findings?

Andrew @Gorilla83 I'm very curious how 2 channel would be affected in your room with taking out the first reflection point panels but leaving up all the other treatments since you have the big GTG coming up. @Gooddoc I can't remember, do you have first reflection point panels in your room?

Andrew, I think the Yorkville's dispersion is similar to the 215's right? I'd be very interested to see what you think if you get a second to try it out. I know you must be crazy busy getting ready for the GTG though...

Brandon @beastaudio how about you? I know your room is very well treated. In the end it could just be my room/seating position etc. The edge of the outside baffle of my mains is 26" from the side walls and maybe that's just the right distance to benefit from the first reflection. Maybe the speakers are far enough that the reflection adds soundstage size and liveliness but not too far which could cause that reflection to clutter the sound???

Craig @craig john and David @dlbeck I think your 2 rooms are the best sounding rooms I have been in and both are obviously very well treated. Is it even possible for you guys to remove ONLY the first reflection panels for 2 channel music? David if I remember right your first reflection panels have those slats in them (is that for diffusion?) so that right there might be taking care of the issue I have in my room with the first panel absorbing everything.

Michael @desertdome I'd love to get your thoughts too since it was your post and link that got me thinking about this and trying it out for myself.



Whatever the case I am really loving the lively (not bright, it's hard to describe) and larger soundstage so I don't think I'm going back. To be clear, music sounded good with all of the combinations of panels but I really believe I'm on to something, at least in my room. I'd ask my wife to do a blind test for me but I know better, haha.

After typing all this I tried it one more time and yep, I like it much better without the 2 first reflection panels.

If anyone else tries taking out the first reflection panels can you include how close your mains are to your side walls along with your impressions?

I'm tired of typing the words "first reflection panels".
I have been wanting to experiment with this as I have close to 20 panels (some just for aesthetics) on the 29 foot side walls of my room. Obviously front wall absorption panels are not going anywhere, but I want to measure and test my impulse graphs with all and nothing. Guess I will try out no first reflection panels while I am at it too

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

"If you done it, it ain't bragging." ~ Walt Whitman

 

AE TD12x SEOS12 Build

Beast's DIY Master Measurement Thread

DIY Emminence Coaxial Surround Thread

beastaudio is offline  
post #26203 of 26425 Old 12-03-2014, 02:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 5,689
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 693 Post(s)
Liked: 624
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedimastergrant View Post
The acoustic designer for my room believes in NOT absorbing all of the energy at the first reflection point. That is why I use Quest Perfsorber in that location. It is a unique product that has both absorption and diffusion properties. I am sure that slats will do something similar but not at the exact same position as the Perfsorber does.

I have to say I am very pleased with the result. It opens up the soundstage and has enough liveliness for my taste. I did not know at the time if this was the proper choice but I am very glad I went ahead and did it this way.

I am sure everyone will have a different subjective opinion about this.

I have been listening to a ton of concerts lately on Blu Ray and Palladia HD. In the last few weeks I went through Bruce Springsteen and the E street band. Crossroads with Eric Clapton. Live from Daryl's House (several episodes), Jools Holland (several episodes), John Mayer Trio, The Who, Rolling Stones (Ladies and Gentlemen), Joe Bonamassa, Muse, The Killers, and way too many others to mention.

Ah I should have asked you about this a long time ago. I just assumed you had absorption only at the first reflection points and I thought it worked well in your room - now I see why.
carp is offline  
post #26204 of 26425 Old 12-03-2014, 02:44 PM
AVS Special Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 5,689
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 693 Post(s)
Liked: 624
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
I have been wanting to experiment with this as I have close to 20 panels (some just for aesthetics) on the 29 foot side walls of my room. Obviously front wall absorption panels are not going anywhere, but I want to measure and test my impulse graphs with all and nothing. Guess I will try out no first reflection panels while I am at it too
Let me know what you think, the more I listen and go back and forth the larger the difference between the two becomes - in a good way.
carp is offline  
post #26205 of 26425 Old 12-03-2014, 04:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Archaea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 6,690
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 790 Post(s)
Liked: 908
Hey Principle,

I'm too sick to blow a whistle for the school kids at gym to run lines, so instead I stayed home and ran lines myself hanging and taking down AT panels all day long yesterday and today.

Sincerly Coach Carp.





"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
Archaea's Theatre Room
2011 KC Sub Shootout
2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout
My Subwoofer Recommendations by Pricepoint
Archaea is online now  
post #26206 of 26425 Old 12-03-2014, 04:24 PM
Member
 
Tin_Can's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 150
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 71 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Has anyone put the Single 8HT-lp's in ceiling? How's the dispersion? The only thing preventing me from seriously considering JTR for my new build is the need for Atmos.

Also, how's the build quality on JTR's? I don't care about aesthetics, but cabinet resonance is a concern.
Tin_Can is online now  
post #26207 of 26425 Old 12-03-2014, 04:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Archaea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 6,690
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 790 Post(s)
Liked: 908
An African Bull Elephant could use ANY JTR speaker as a training stand --- with confidence.

RMK! likes this.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
Archaea's Theatre Room
2011 KC Sub Shootout
2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout
My Subwoofer Recommendations by Pricepoint
Archaea is online now  
post #26208 of 26425 Old 12-03-2014, 04:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dgage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,794
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 552 Post(s)
Liked: 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin_Can View Post
Has anyone put the Single 8HT-lp's in ceiling? How's the dispersion? The only thing preventing me from seriously considering JTR for my new build is the need for Atmos.

Also, how's the build quality on JTR's? I don't care about aesthetics, but cabinet resonance is a concern.
JTR speakers are well built. Mine came bare (I will veneer them) and the cabinet construction was impressive and I'm an advanced hobbyist woodworker so not easily impressed. No issues with cabinet resonance on the speakers.

I have the Slanted 8s and have the rears in the ceiling and the sides on the walls. Very good dispersion and a great surround speaker. I wouldn't use them for mains but as surrounds, they're great.
dgage is offline  
post #26209 of 26425 Old 12-03-2014, 04:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 5,689
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 693 Post(s)
Liked: 624
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Hey Principle,

I'm too sick to blow a whistle for the school kids at gym to run lines, so instead I stayed home and ran lines myself hanging and taking down AT panels all day long yesterday and today.

Sincerly Coach Carp.




Haha, funny because it's true. When I'm sick I can't function at school but I can still find the strength to mess with my room.

I do have to say I'm a bit concerned about my lungs because I've never had this feeling before. It feels like something heavy is on my lungs and it hurts to take full breaths. I've never had bronchitis, is this what it feels like?
carp is offline  
post #26210 of 26425 Old 12-03-2014, 04:59 PM
AVS Special Member
 
SOWK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Wauwatosa, WI
Posts: 4,098
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 228 Post(s)
Liked: 129
dgage - please let me know how you like the D-Soinc.
SOWK is online now  
post #26211 of 26425 Old 12-03-2014, 05:44 PM
J
Member
 
J's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Mukwonago Wi
Posts: 157
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
I do have to say I'm a bit concerned about my lungs because I've never had this feeling before. It feels like something heavy is on my lungs and it hurts to take full breaths. I've never had bronchitis, is this what it feels like?
I had that same feeling last summer .................Pneumonia

UPS just dropped 3 more 242's for my ceiling to go along with the other 3 .

The panels on the ceiling have made the most positive effect on my rec rm .

I thought I read somewhere where Stevie Ray Vaughan recorded his albums in a dead environment and that may be why I always thought his music sounded better than most recordings in a untreated rm.

Samsung 55 inch lcd
Marantz sr5400
Parasound HCA 1500
Parasound HCA 1000
JTR OS LFU
Paradigm studio 40's -fronts
Paradigm CC
Paradigm atoms -rear
J is online now  
post #26212 of 26425 Old 12-03-2014, 06:01 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dgage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,794
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 552 Post(s)
Liked: 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
dgage - please let me know how you like the D-Soni-c.
Looks like that's going to have to wait. The amp definitely looks nice and well built. But my initial hooking up to my Sherbourne 7030 preamp didn't go so well. Hooking up the RCA resulted in quite loud "feedback" and I could barely hear the bluray sound. So then I hooked up via XLR and there was limited/no background noise but the volume was quite low...even with the volume turned all the way up. It very well could be the preamp so I'll break out my measurement preamp and see how that works. Thanks for the quick shipment...I'll let you know how it goes when I get a chance to play with it more.
dgage is offline  
post #26213 of 26425 Old 12-03-2014, 06:13 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Frohlich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 2,218
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 283 Post(s)
Liked: 300
Stole this from another thread....Found this very interesting:



Dolby Cinema to compete with IMAX
Well this is certainly interesting:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/beh...00%3A00_acouch

Dolby, the company whose name is synonymous with sound, is looking to make some noise in the world of images. The brand is set to launch Dolby Cinema, a premium, large-format theater experience that could challenge large-format leader Imax.

Dolby is the world's top brand in theater sound. Its new Atmos immersive sound, which was introduced in 2012, has been installed in roughly 700 theaters worldwide, and its fiscal 2014 revenue of $960.2 million is more than three times that of Imax. But Imax boasts more than 800 theaters worldwide, and Dolby sees an opportunity to move in on that turf.

Dolby Cinema will include special design elements — like signature entrances that can be programmed to reflect the movie that is playing — as well as giant screens and, of course, Atmos sound. But what's really piquing the interest of filmmakers is the system's ability to project "high dynamic range," a process in which whites appear whiter and blacks blacker. Gravity's Oscar-winning cinematographer Emmanuel Lubezki, for one, has said he's eager to make use of HDR. In fact, many insiders from Hollywood's technology community believe that consumers will see a noticeable difference with HDR, compared with the more widely touted "Ultra HD" 4K resolution and high frame rates.

Initially, Dolby's new projection system will use two Christie 6P 4K laser projectors for increased brightness (at press time Dolby expected to reach 31 FootLamberts for 2D and 14 FootLamberts for 3D) along with some proprietary Dolby technology, as well as the Dolby 3D system for stereo movies. Next spring, the system, co-developed with Christie, will introduce updated laser projectors and playback technology that will enable the system to project "Dolby Vision," the newest Dolby format, which combines HDR with some proprietary color secret sauce. (At this year's Consumer Electronics Show, Dolby also introduced Dolby Vision for TV.)

Earlier this year, Dolby quietly previewed its system at the Vine Theatre in Hollywood for leading directors, cinematographers and studio executives. More recently, it has staged demos at the Harmony Gold theater in Los Angeles. The first Dolby Cinema is now set to open in early December at the new JT Cinemas complex in Eindhoven, Netherlands. San Francisco-based Dolby is offering a profit-sharing deal to theater owners, who are expected to raise ticket prices. JT Cinemas' managing director Ron Sterk says that while the adult ticket price for his theater's standard auditoriums is about $12.50, the price for Dolby Cinema will be about $18.

JT plans to open additional Dolby Cinema auditoriums in the Netherlands, including a second in June and a third in late 2015, according to Sterk. The system's early adopters also include the UCI/Cinesa La Maquinista complex in Barcelona.

Dolby will supply theaters with the equipment, which is not inexpensive — the projectors alone run several hundred thousand dollars each — while the theater would cover the cost of the buildout. "It's not cheap, but we think the economics work," Dolby senior vp cinema Doug Darrow tells The Hollywood Reporter, noting "it has to have a meaningful screen count."

Meanwhile, Imax also is in the process of launching a laser-projection-based system for its auditoriums. And Technicolor has publicly said that it, too, is working on a way to deliver HDR to the cinema using developing laser-projection technology.

While Dolby lines up theaters in the U.S., it's busy closing studio partnerships to ensure movies will be created in Dolby Vision during postproduction. Film cameras and high-end digital cinema cameras, such as the Arri Alexa and Sony F65, can currently produce enough picture information to generate HDR images. Numerous postproduction-technology makers either support or have committed to support the Dolby Vision format.

"We are talking to all the studios. There's interest," says Darrow.

Disney is likely to be an early candidate, with J.J. Abrams' Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Dec. 18, 2015) waiting in the wings, as well as Brad Bird's Tomorrowland. And since Disney's 2012 Pixar hit Brave was the first film released with Dolby Atmos sound, it wouldn't be surprising if Pixar's next release, Inside Out, helps launch the Dolby Cinema brand with much fanfare when it opens in June.
Frohlich is online now  
post #26214 of 26425 Old 12-03-2014, 07:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
raynist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,516
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 239 Post(s)
Liked: 359
Interesting.

I got to say I would not pay $18 to go to a movie. Would much rather wait for it to come out on blu ray and buy it for possible cheaper.

It would be nice if the theater was spec'd to 20hz or lower so maybe more movies will come out with LFE.
raynist is online now  
post #26215 of 26425 Old 12-03-2014, 07:46 PM
AVS Special Member
 
coolgeek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,838
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 241 Post(s)
Liked: 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
So, two days ago I watched the following about the science of the room with Paul Hales after seeing a post with a link from Desertdome.

http://twit.tv/show/home-theater-geeks/164

I saw that AVS had this same interview a while back but I didn't watch the whole thing. The part that really intrigued me was from 43:00 to 45:00 where he talks about a study where they put people in an anechoic chamber and had direct speakers and then other speakers that were meant to mimic the effect of a first reflection from a wall and they gave the participants a volume control to select the volume from the secondary speaker (the speaker that mimicked the first reflection) and the people in the study turned the volume of the reflection speaker as loud or louder than what a first reflection from a hard wall would be.

Now, I think the flaw with this is that music would sound extremely dead and lifeless in an anechoic chamber so any help you could get to mimic a reflection would be a good thing so I figured there may not be much merit to this experiment. I think a better experiment would be to have the speakers outside with the same setup, having the secondary speakers mimicking what would be a wall - or do the experiment in a well treated room and place the secondary speakers right in front of the first reflection panels.

However, I was curious enough to try removing some/all of my treatments and see what would happen with 2 channel music.

At first I took all of them down, both first and second reflections on each side wall and the first reflection of the ceiling panels. I have a total of 7 GIK panels, 2 on each side wall and 3 on the ceiling.

So, with all of the panels taken out I randomly surfed through my music trying out parts of a bunch of different songs. Right a way I didn't really like it as much with all of the panels taken down. Yes, I felt the soundstage was wider but at the same time it became harder to focus on specific instruments/voices etc. and I knew I didn't prefer music this way - which I wasn't surprised, because I remember thinking it was a nice improvement when I put all my treatments in (thanks to Luke Kamp who brought over a bunch of panels so I could test it out before buying a couple years ago).

So, I figured that what Paul Hales is talking about doesn't work in my room but I wanted to be sure. So, I next tried different combinations of panels to see if I liked anything better than my 7 panel setup. I tried the following:

1. Ceiling panels, no wall panels.
2. All wall panels, no ceiling panels.
3. First reflection panels only, nothing else.
4. Second reflection panels only, nothing else.
5. First reflection panels only, nothing else.
6. Ceiling panels and first reflection panels.
7. Ceiling panels and second reflection panels.
8. Finally, back to all 7 panels.

I went back and forth many times since Monday evening. I've been home sick yesterday and today to lots of time to experiment.

Here is what I found. I liked #7 by a significant margin!! So, using the secondary reflection panels and ceiling panels but NO first reflection panels is what my ears liked best.

Second place was #4 (secondary reflection panels up and nothing else) and 3rd place was #8 (all panels in place).

So it would seem in my room that the most important acoustic panel placement is the secondary reflections, in other words, the reflection on each side wall coming from the speaker from the other side of the room. However, even more important is NOT having first reflection panels!!!

The way I would describe the improvement with taking down the first reflection panels is that the soundstage gets bigger and the sound is more "exciting" and pleasing. I went back and forth SO many times with taking on and off the first reflection panel and that was the impression I got every time. Enough to know that I'm not ever using the first reflection panels for 2 channel music again.

So, I figure all is good and I can just take down my first reflection panels and live happily ever after. Not so fast my friend. I was up in the middle of the night last night (can't sleep, just cough like crazy when lying down) watching episodes of The Killing on Netflix. I've watched a bunch of episodes recently so I'm very familiar with how the show sounds. Last night for the first time I found myself straining to hear some of the dialogue in a couple scenes. Nothing major, but enough to notice. The speech intelligibility in my room is quite good for not having an AT setup (ha, as long as i don't recline... which sucks a bit...) but this was noticeably not great. So this morning I checked with my mirror and sure enough the first reflection point for the center channel is the exact same place on the side walls as it is for my mains so I'm wondering if the issue with speech from the center channel is because it's a longer reflection to the side walls from the center channel, enough to hurt intelligibility.

When I get around today to turning my projector on I'm going to run those scenes with the primary reflection panels in place and go back and forth and see if there is a difference. I bet at the end of the day I'll have to take off the panels for music and put them back for tv/movies and I'm ok with that.


Now, I am open to the fact that it could all be in my head. I've done enough blind tests to know that the brain can trick us very, very easily when doing comparisons like this. What I really need is someone to remove/add those first reflection panels and I keep my eyes closed so I can't be biased (for whatever reason).

Still, to me the difference for music seems pronounced enough (and I swear it's not i my head, haha) that I'm very curious what you guys think that have first reflection panels and listen to 2 channel music. Can some of you guys try this out and post your findings?

Andrew @Gorilla83 I'm very curious how 2 channel would be affected in your room with taking out the first reflection point panels but leaving up all the other treatments since you have the big GTG coming up. @Gooddoc I can't remember, do you have first reflection point panels in your room?

Andrew, I think the Yorkville's dispersion is similar to the 215's right? I'd be very interested to see what you think if you get a second to try it out. I know you must be crazy busy getting ready for the GTG though...

Brandon @beastaudio how about you? I know your room is very well treated. In the end it could just be my room/seating position etc. The edge of the outside baffle of my mains is 26" from the side walls and maybe that's just the right distance to benefit from the first reflection. Maybe the speakers are far enough that the reflection adds soundstage size and liveliness but not too far which could cause that reflection to clutter the sound???

Craig @craig john and David @dlbeck I think your 2 rooms are the best sounding rooms I have been in and both are obviously very well treated. Is it even possible for you guys to remove ONLY the first reflection panels for 2 channel music? David if I remember right your first reflection panels have those slats in them (is that for diffusion?) so that right there might be taking care of the issue I have in my room with the first panel absorbing everything.

Michael @desertdome I'd love to get your thoughts too since it was your post and link that got me thinking about this and trying it out for myself.



Whatever the case I am really loving the lively (not bright, it's hard to describe) and larger soundstage so I don't think I'm going back. To be clear, music sounded good with all of the combinations of panels but I really believe I'm on to something, at least in my room. I'd ask my wife to do a blind test for me but I know better, haha.

After typing all this I tried it one more time and yep, I like it much better without the 2 first reflection panels.

If anyone else tries taking out the first reflection panels can you include how close your mains are to your side walls along with your impressions?

I'm tired of typing the words "first reflection panels".

Carp, I am glad you got sick...

Otherwise we'll never have this experiment!

But first thing's first,... did you realize your Number 3 and 5 are exactly the same? haha

You just confirmed every suspicions i have had while researching acoustics treatment for my own HT build. I read so many HT builts and followed the acoustics thread and bought books, etc. All because I couldn't afford one of those very expensive 'expert build up plans' that people use.

And I had come to my personal conclusion that absorption panels are used sparingly. I also visited every 'hi fi' shop i can go to in my city, those with special rooms to show-case their very expensive speakers. And I notice the same thing, over and over, again. I DID NOT like the sound of almost ALL their speakers because they all sound too DEAD. And I realized it wasn't the speakers 100%... it must have been all the over-treatment they did with their rooms. For instance, I have a wharfedale speaker set from a particular shop and I much prefers the sound of mine in my current 'library' room, covered with bookshelves rather than their well treated room.

So, that got me thinking that 'diffussion' might be a better option to absorption. So, in my new HT room, i have almost all diffusion in places that makes sense, and very little absorption.

Here's the stages of my built...

1. When i had all my Roxul Rockwool up on the places i need them (4 inches on the entire ceiling), the entire frontstage (with the 3 feet of bass trap), and all below 3 feet of the walls (this will be covered up eventually by plywood as design, they are only there as extra bass traps).

At this stage, the sound was completely dead in that room. I did not like music ONE bit...

2. This stage is when i started covering up the 3 feet from floor to the part where the plywood ends and begins my fabric (see dlbeck's room design)... and also covered up the ceiling (with these type of wooded perforated panels

And then from the 3 feet up, on the side walls, i placed some skyline diffussion panels and on another wall, some qrd panels, all home-made.

At this point, the only exposed absorption are the entire front stage. Nothing else. And the music was really, really sounding good. Like you said, the soundstage opened up nicely, and everything came alive. And i am playing vocals and the intelligibility was incredible as well. I haven't fully tested it yet, but i am liking how it sounds now.

DLBeck's HT design also uses a lot of diffussion compared to absorption.
coolgeek is offline  
post #26216 of 26425 Old 12-03-2014, 09:05 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dgage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,794
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 552 Post(s)
Liked: 321
Disregard my question below. Found the manual and verified it is to choose between RCA or XLR input. Confusing part is there are only 2 switches for 3 inputs.

Question for the DSonic owners in this thread. On the M3-5400 I just bought from SOWK, the amp has the L/R/C occupied, which are the center 3 channels. On the back between the center and left and between the center and right are switches. From what I can tell, they specify whether to use the RCA or XLR inputs. Can someone verify this or let me know the function of those switches? Thanks.

Last edited by dgage; 12-03-2014 at 09:10 PM.
dgage is offline  
post #26217 of 26425 Old 12-04-2014, 10:16 AM
AVS Special Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 5,689
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 693 Post(s)
Liked: 624
Quote:
Originally Posted by J View Post
I had that same feeling last summer .................Pneumonia

UPS just dropped 3 more 242's for my ceiling to go along with the other 3 .

The panels on the ceiling have made the most positive effect on my rec rm .

I thought I read somewhere where Stevie Ray Vaughan recorded his albums in a dead environment and that may be why I always thought his music sounded better than most recordings in a untreated rm.

Yikes, hope not. I'm going to the doc today just to make sure.

I also like the ceiling panels I think it could be because the distance from the speakers to the ceiling is much further so the first reflections from the ceiling arrive late enough to mess up the clarity. Are your current panels for the first reflection? Where are you putting the other 3 panels?
carp is offline  
post #26218 of 26425 Old 12-04-2014, 10:23 AM
AVS Special Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 5,689
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 693 Post(s)
Liked: 624
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Carp, I am glad you got sick...

Otherwise we'll never have this experiment!

But first thing's first,... did you realize your Number 3 and 5 are exactly the same? haha

You just confirmed every suspicions i have had while researching acoustics treatment for my own HT build. I read so many HT builts and followed the acoustics thread and bought books, etc. All because I couldn't afford one of those very expensive 'expert build up plans' that people use.

And I had come to my personal conclusion that absorption panels are used sparingly. I also visited every 'hi fi' shop i can go to in my city, those with special rooms to show-case their very expensive speakers. And I notice the same thing, over and over, again. I DID NOT like the sound of almost ALL their speakers because they all sound too DEAD. And I realized it wasn't the speakers 100%... it must have been all the over-treatment they did with their rooms. For instance, I have a wharfedale speaker set from a particular shop and I much prefers the sound of mine in my current 'library' room, covered with bookshelves rather than their well treated room.

So, that got me thinking that 'diffussion' might be a better option to absorption. So, in my new HT room, i have almost all diffusion in places that makes sense, and very little absorption.

Here's the stages of my built...

1. When i had all my Roxul Rockwool up on the places i need them (4 inches on the entire ceiling), the entire frontstage (with the 3 feet of bass trap), and all below 3 feet of the walls (this will be covered up eventually by plywood as design, they are only there as extra bass traps).

At this stage, the sound was completely dead in that room. I did not like music ONE bit...

2. This stage is when i started covering up the 3 feet from floor to the part where the plywood ends and begins my fabric (see dlbeck's room design)... and also covered up the ceiling (with these type of wooded perforated panels

And then from the 3 feet up, on the side walls, i placed some skyline diffussion panels and on another wall, some qrd panels, all home-made.

At this point, the only exposed absorption are the entire front stage. Nothing else. And the music was really, really sounding good. Like you said, the soundstage opened up nicely, and everything came alive. And i am playing vocals and the intelligibility was incredible as well. I haven't fully tested it yet, but i am liking how it sounds now.

DLBeck's HT design also uses a lot of diffussion compared to absorption.

Haha, whoops - just checking to see if anyone read through that mess!


Thanks for the specifics of what is working for you, I have noticed that quite a few people agree that treating the whole front wall is a good thing. Do you have any ceiling treatments? Any pictures of your current setup? thanks!

Edit - oops, I see you have diffusion on your ceiling too.
carp is offline  
post #26219 of 26425 Old 12-04-2014, 10:42 AM
AVS Special Member
 
coolgeek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,838
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 241 Post(s)
Liked: 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
Haha, whoops - just checking to see if anyone read through that mess!


Thanks for the specifics of what is working for you, I have noticed that quite a few people agree that treating the whole front wall is a good thing. Do you have any ceiling treatments? Any pictures of your current setup? thanks!

Edit - oops, I see you have diffusion on your ceiling too.
I have some photos but they aren't anything to look at right now. I am working on the 'Interior Design' so to speak, basically building the look and feel of the HT with wood.

As for ceiling, I have 4 inches of rockwool covering the entire ceiling (but they are then covered up by that wooden perforated panel, so some absorption for frequencies that passes through the holes but mostly not). Before I installed the perforated panel, i tested the room with music and it was horrible. Everything seems to be absorbed and it was totally dead. The 4 inch of rockwool (separated into 2 by a plywood inbetween) is mostly for reducing the sound that leaks to the floor above.

Anyways, i am glad to hear your experiment have resulted in better acoustics for you. I feel a lot of times we just install whatever we feel is right and then are 'just happy' with the results without 'knowing' what's still out there. With experiments such as yours, you can then really find out what works and what doesn't. That's one of the reasons why I don't take 'measurements' too seriously. (I know this is highly controversial), but to me, music is so subjective and the entire science of 'sound' as it pertains to our psycho-acoustics brain, is a 'complex problem', meaning, we don't understand all the variables involved yet, in terms of what we like, how we perceive the music, etc, that just purely looking at lines on a graph won't tell the whole story. It could be a great starting point, but then when you experiment more, if you have the ability to, you'll find out what you like and what you don't.

In my HT, i purposely plan to have the fabric parts of the walls (which is hiding the treatments behind), to be removable. That way, in the future once the room is ready, and I need to change the 'treatments' i still can. I'll have to wait until the carpets and chairs come in to see how it sounds.
coolgeek is offline  
post #26220 of 26425 Old 12-04-2014, 10:42 AM
AVS Special Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 5,689
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 693 Post(s)
Liked: 624
Coolgeek, I couldn't find those panels in your picture, do you have a link? thanks!
carp is offline  
Reply Speakers

Tags
228ht , captivator , Jtr , Jtr Noesis 212ht 212ht Lp
Gear in this thread - 228ht by PriceGrabber.com

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off