Official JTR speaker thread - Page 880 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #26371 of 35344 Old 12-18-2014, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by robmarti@tampa View Post
Hey guys, this is a little side note. I have JTR's so follow the thread but was looking to get a full size stand alone equipment rack for all the gear and consoles hooked up. I would like to get one with tempered/darkened glass front to minimize light effects. Will be on outside for now and then later moved into closet space. Any recommendations and company or site to look at for them? Any sponsors here to get good deal? Any specific things I should be looking for. Right now using Outlaw amp but otherwise no extremely heavy gear but there is always the future so want this to last a long time.


thanks
- Rob
Hi Rob,

You should call Mike Garrett, AV Science Sales (585-671-2968). Mikes a good guy and has sources for just about anything AV. Also, Crutchfield.com has some nice AV equipment racks but none with glass front doors. Ventilation is a big issue with the AVR's and SSP's so you may want to reconsider the closed front approach racks.

Cheers,
Rob

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post #26372 of 35344 Old 12-18-2014, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Nabs17 View Post
Anyone looking for some good audio to show-off the JTR's should watch Into The Storm. Not saying the movie is good but it sounds great. Those tornado's sound awesome...especially the one at the very beginning.


Give it a spin....especially you guys with multiple OS's or rhed with quad S2's.
Already did... i highly recommend it...

My Mom loved it... she even asked me if they shot the real storms... haha... it was shocking but felt like a roller coaster ride...
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post #26373 of 35344 Old 12-18-2014, 07:49 AM
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Introductory price on the 212HT was $1999
You're right.. not sure why i thought less.. but i got the 5% additional discount for them, plus 10% on all others, the S8s and the OS...
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post #26374 of 35344 Old 12-18-2014, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Nabs17 View Post
Anyone looking for some good audio to show-off the JTR's should watch Into The Storm. Not saying the movie is good but it sounds great. Those tornado's sound awesome...especially the one at the very beginning.


Give it a spin....especially you guys with multiple OS's or rhed with quad S2's.
I watched it and liked it. I was really impressed with how the 228s handled all those high pitch loud sounds ( high wind, glass shattering, rain, metal crunching/scraping) without being fatiguing. I wouldn't have made it 20mins in that movie if I was listening on a klipsch system.

7.2 w/ denon x4100
JTR noesis 228s LCR
Ascend acoustics cmt 340se side ss.
ascend acoustics cbm170se rear ss
dual reaction audio gamma 21s!
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post #26375 of 35344 Old 12-19-2014, 10:58 AM
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Thoughts?

Now that the 2015 212HT has a wooden horn would a pair of these as L&R w/ another 212HT as center (identical LCR) be preferred over a 215RM center?

Common sense says three identical speakers are always a better choice and at 101db sensitivity make the 212HT the most obvious choice for a center. My dilemma is that common sense gets in my way so much that I have an uncanny ability to ignore it thus causing myself problems that I just did not see coming.

If I were to go with a 215RM center and 212HT R&L (already ordered) what problems could I have over just getting a matching 212HT as center. Whatever the choice it will be placed horizontal.

Any input will be appreciated as the 215RM is so Bada$$ it mucks up my thought process.

Chris

Last edited by countryWV; 12-19-2014 at 11:03 AM.
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post #26376 of 35344 Old 12-19-2014, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by countryWV View Post
Thoughts?

Now that the 2015 212HT has a wooden horn would a pair of these as L&R w/ another 212HT as center be preferred over a 215RM center?

Common sense says three identical speakers are always a better choice and at 101db sensitivity make the 212HT the most obvious choice for a center. My dilemma is that common sense gets in my way so much that I have an uncanny ability to ignore it thus causing myself problems that I just did not see coming. If I were to go with a 215RM center and 212HT R&L what problems could I have over just getting a matching 212HT as center. Whatever the choice it will be placed horizontal.

Any input will be appreciated as the 215RM is so Bada$$ it mucks up my thought process.
If you are getting 3 new speakers, you should definitely get them all from the same line - 212s or 215s. You want matching timbre and matching phase for proper imaging.
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post #26377 of 35344 Old 12-19-2014, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
If you are getting 3 new speakers, you should definitely get them all from the same line - 212s or 215s. You want matching timbre and matching phase for proper imaging.
Would you say whatever I would be gaining with the 215RM as center would not be worth what would be lost by not going with 3 x 212HT?

Chris
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post #26378 of 35344 Old 12-19-2014, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by countryWV View Post
Would you say whatever I would be gaining with the 215RM as center would not be worth what would be lost by not going with 3 x 212HT?
Definitely.

4 great options:
1) 3x 212HT
2) 3x 215RM
3) 3x 215RT
4) 2x 215RT + 1x 215RM
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post #26379 of 35344 Old 12-19-2014, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by countryWV View Post
Would you say whatever I would be gaining with the 215RM as center would not be worth what would be lost by not going with 3 x 212HT?
Sounds like you need 215RM x 3!!!
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post #26380 of 35344 Old 12-19-2014, 11:36 AM
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I was thinking that since the 212HT and 215RM have the same CD and horn (different size) they would be pretty much the same from 400hz up differing only below that.

Chris

Last edited by countryWV; 12-19-2014 at 11:45 AM.
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post #26381 of 35344 Old 12-19-2014, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
Sounds like you need 215RM x 3!!!
I made sure to order a pair of 212HT yesterday before I asked b/c 3 x 215RM is what I want but cannot do. I am already at an impasse with my wife over using my T12s as Side Surrounds.

Chris
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post #26382 of 35344 Old 12-19-2014, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by countryWV View Post
Thoughts?

Now that the 2015 212HT has a wooden horn would a pair of these as L&R w/ another 212HT as center (identical LCR) be preferred over a 215RM center?

Common sense says three identical speakers are always a better choice and at 101db sensitivity make the 212HT the most obvious choice for a center. My dilemma is that common sense gets in my way so much that I have an uncanny ability to ignore it thus causing myself problems that I just did not see coming.

If I were to go with a 215RM center and 212HT R&L (already ordered) what problems could I have over just getting a matching 212HT as center. Whatever the choice it will be placed horizontal.

Any input will be appreciated as the 215RM is so Bada$$ it mucks up my thought process.
Speaking of mucking up your thought process ... have you considered the 210RT's and/or RM. I think that combo might make for an outstanding LCR but nobodys ordered them (or lived to tell about it ). Just sayin those plus your Subm's would be very cool.
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post #26383 of 35344 Old 12-19-2014, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by countryWV View Post
I made sure to order a pair of 212HT yesterday before I asked b/c 3 x 215RM is what I want but cannot do. I am already at an impasse with my wife over using my T12s as Side Surrounds.
I am sure Jeff didn't build them yet

T-12's as side surrounds is pretty ridiculous!!

What about if you downsized the surrounds and went bigger on the LCR's?

Actually if you get the 215RM's as LCR's it will make the T-12's look smaller and more acceptable!!
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post #26384 of 35344 Old 12-19-2014, 12:20 PM
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I was thinking that since the 212HT and 215RM have the same CD and horn (different size) they would be pretty much the same from 400hz up differing only below that.
Based on the JTR web site, the differences in sensitivity and "horn loaded down to" imply different crossovers. Aside from timbre differences, this could result in phase differences, causing cancellation when sounds pan between the different models of speakers. Not something you want with your front soundstage.

Any of the options I listed should be spectacular.
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post #26385 of 35344 Old 12-19-2014, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Speaking of mucking up your thought process ... have you considered the 210RT's and/or RM. I think that combo might make for an outstanding LCR but nobodys ordered them (or lived to tell about it ). Just sayin those plus your Subm's would be very cool.
Oh yeah...left that out.
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post #26386 of 35344 Old 12-19-2014, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by countryWV View Post
I made sure to order a pair of 212HT yesterday before I asked b/c 3 x 215RM is what I want but cannot do. I am already at an impasse with my wife over using my T12s as Side Surrounds.
You could do a lot worse than 3x 212HT. There are some big advantages to 101db efficiency. That's equivalent to 4x more power.
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post #26387 of 35344 Old 12-19-2014, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Speaking of mucking up your thought process ... have you considered the 210RT's and/or RM. I think that combo might make for an outstanding LCR but nobodys ordered them (or lived to tell about it ). Just sayin those plus your Subm's would be very cool.
The 210RT/M combination look Awesome. I thoroughly considered it till Jeff announced the '15 212HT w/wooden horn & wider coverage pattern. They will be a direct drop in replacement for the T12s and I can use my same 18" stands. The 210s difference in sensitivity (95db vs 101db) and overall smaller horn size just did not jump out at me. I know in reality I probably could not tell a difference.

I think this is the first time I have ever said these words so here goes: With 212HT across the front and Slanted 8HT for Surrounds I may sell my D-Sonic amp choosing to run the system with an avr only. I will have plenty of time to evaluate the differences b/c I am waiting on Vizio to release their Reference series TV which has been pushed back till at least Spring. Only that TV could convince me to sell my amp.

Chris
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post #26388 of 35344 Old 12-19-2014, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
I am sure Jeff didn't build them yet

T-12's as side surrounds is pretty ridiculous!!

What about if you downsized the surrounds and went bigger on the LCR's?

Actually if you get the 215RM's as LCR's it will make the T-12's look smaller and more acceptable!!
You sound like the voice in my head. Had I married an ugly women this is exactly what I would have done. I would probably made her ugly a$$ carry the heavy end too.
That did not happen so 15 years later here I am eating Bologna sandwiches (she cant cook either) making concessions on my audio choices. In the end I will sell the 3 T12s and replace them with 4 Slanted 8HTs.
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Last edited by countryWV; 12-20-2014 at 04:37 AM.
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post #26389 of 35344 Old 12-19-2014, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
You could do a lot worse than 3x 212HT. There are some big advantages to 101db efficiency. That's equivalent to 4x more power.
Thanks man
The voice of reason is always welcome. All of your points are valid.

Chris
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post #26390 of 35344 Old 12-19-2014, 01:34 PM
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The 210RT/M combination look Awesome. I thoroughly considered it till Jeff announced the '15 212HT w/wooden horn & wider coverage pattern. They will be a direct drop in replacement for the T12s and I can use my same 18" stands. The 210s difference in sensitivity (95db vs 101db) and overall smaller horn size just did not jump out at me. I know in reality I probably could not tell a difference.

I think this is the first time I have ever said these words so here goes: With 212HT across the front and Slanted 8HT for Surrounds I may sell my D-Sonic amp choosing to run the system with an avr only. I will have plenty of time to evaluate the differences b/c I am waiting on Vizio to release their Reference series TV which has been pushed back till at least Spring. Only that TV could convince me to sell my amp.
Let's not forget.. Although the sensitivity of the 212 is more. The 212's and 210's are totally different animals. The 210's are true full speakers. So the 210's will put out more bass. Well everyone has different taste though. I for one will never go back to setting my speakers to small. The soundstage of true full range speakers is sound to behold..
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post #26391 of 35344 Old 12-19-2014, 01:48 PM
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Let's not forget.. Although the sensitivity of the 212 is more. The 212's and 210's are totally different animals. The 210's are true full speakers. So the 210's will put out more bass. Well everyone has different taste though. I for one will never go back to setting my speakers to small. The soundstage of true full range speakers is sound to behold..
Where your system is at right now you have nowhere to go but down. Your speaker and sub choices are as good as I've ever seen. AWESOME!!

I know the 210RT are full range and go lower but I do not think they have more bass then the 212HT at least above 80hz. They may though. I know the '15 212HT has "improved midbass" but I need to hear it to fully grasp what that means.

Chris
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post #26392 of 35344 Old 12-19-2014, 01:56 PM
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You could do a lot worse than 3x 212HT. There are some big advantages to 101db efficiency. That's equivalent to 4x more power.
A lot of JTR owners and fans push this as a big deal...I'm not as enamored with the 101db when compared to 95db sensitivity...now if we were talking 90db sensitivity, then I'd start minding again. I know it matters to some but choosing a JTR speaker and 95 or 101db doesn't sway me either way. But I know many on here do care about the 101db sensitivity.
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post #26393 of 35344 Old 12-19-2014, 02:40 PM
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A lot of JTR owners and fans push this as a big deal...I'm not as enamored with the 101db when compared to 95db sensitivity...now if we were talking 90db sensitivity, then I'd start minding again. I know it matters to some but choosing a JTR speaker and 95 or 101db doesn't sway me either way. But I know many on here do care about the 101db sensitivity.
Agreed that 95db is already high - higher than most speakers.

Here's my theory as to why 101db has real benefits...speculation here, so please step in if someone has real knowledge. I'm not sure that I'm right about this stuff.

I think that real live sound has lots of big dynamic peaks.
If you clip those peaks away, whether by running out of amp power, overdriving input or outputs, digital clipping, etc., it doesn't sound broken. You can hear heavy clipping, but just clipping of the peaks makes it lose that live, dynamic quality.

And fully getting those peaks takes a surprising combination of amp power and speaker efficiency. My 400 wpc amp + 101db 212HTs seems to do the job nicely.

95db would be just just as good with 1600 wpc amps.
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post #26394 of 35344 Old 12-19-2014, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Speaking of mucking up your thought process ... have you considered the 210RT's and/or RM. I think that combo might make for an outstanding LCR but nobodys ordered them (or lived to tell about it ). Just sayin those plus your Subm's would be very cool.
I wonder why there aren't any 210's in the wild....I thought I saw one some pages back but don't have the umph to go back and find it.


I didn't think the 210RT's were full range either.

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post #26395 of 35344 Old 12-19-2014, 03:37 PM
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Agreed that 95db is already high - higher than most speakers.

Here's my theory as to why 101db has real benefits...speculation here, so please step in if someone has real knowledge. I'm not sure that I'm right about this stuff.

I think that real live sound has lots of big dynamic peaks.
If you clip those peaks away, whether by running out of amp power, overdriving input or outputs, digital clipping, etc., it doesn't sound broken. You can hear heavy clipping, but just clipping of the peaks makes it lose that live, dynamic quality.

And fully getting those peaks takes a surprising combination of amp power and speaker efficiency. My 400 wpc amp + 101db 212HTs seems to do the job nicely.

95db would be just just as good with 1600 wpc amps.
If you talk to (or find papers published) Tom Danley, he is a firm believer in true dynamically capable speakers. He has a comment somewhere talking about something as simple as dropping a spoon on the floor could have dynamic peaks of over 50dB. Pretty intense so the more efficient the speaker, the better off you will be in the long run With that said, I would never consider a 95dB speaker "inefficient" by any means. You just have to feed it the power it needs
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post #26396 of 35344 Old 12-19-2014, 03:50 PM
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A lot of JTR owners and fans push this as a big deal...I'm not as enamored with the 101db when compared to 95db sensitivity...now if we were talking 90db sensitivity, then I'd start minding again. I know it matters to some but choosing a JTR speaker and 95 or 101db doesn't sway me either way. But I know many on here do care about the 101db sensitivity.
Each has benefits - no right or wrong.
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If you talk to (or find papers published) Tom Danley, he is a firm believer in true dynamically capable speakers. He has a comment somewhere talking about something as simple as dropping a spoon on the floor could have dynamic peaks of over 50dB. Pretty intense so the more efficient the speaker, the better off you will be in the long run With that said, I would never consider a 95dB speaker "inefficient" by any means. You just have to feed it the power it needs
Back in fhe day Bob Carved used an oscilloscope to show that to accurately reproduce all the transient detail of a snip of scissors in the air would require hundreds of watts.
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post #26398 of 35344 Old 12-19-2014, 04:34 PM
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Agreed that 95db is already high - higher than most speakers.

Here's my theory as to why 101db has real benefits...speculation here, so please step in if someone has real knowledge. I'm not sure that I'm right about this stuff.

I think that real live sound has lots of big dynamic peaks.
If you clip those peaks away, whether by running out of amp power, overdriving input or outputs, digital clipping, etc., it doesn't sound broken. You can hear heavy clipping, but just clipping of the peaks makes it lose that live, dynamic quality.

And fully getting those peaks takes a surprising combination of amp power and speaker efficiency. My 400 wpc amp + 101db 212HTs seems to do the job nicely.

95db would be just just as good with 1600 wpc amps.
Considering the 212s I have sounds great powering off of my receiver of only 150 watts or so of amp power (I have never found the limit yet... I usually play at -12 which is really, really loud, i believe if not reference, it's above already... once i accidentally played at -5 and it was soooo loud and clean, so between -5 and -12, there's a 7dB difference and I can still go even more with the receiver... and the -5 was just as dynamic to me as the -12)... so, with that said, would it be fair to say I can power the 215s with my receiver as well? I mean, if i ran it at -5 (for the 215s) on my receiver, i'll get the same volume as -12 (on the 212s) (although someone said the 101 dB that jeff posted was lower than actual which might be 104 or something... if that's the case, then the 95dB would be 9dB off).

Anyways... I am still waiting for someone to try using the 215s on just a receiver...
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post #26399 of 35344 Old 12-19-2014, 05:31 PM
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If you talk to (or find papers published) Tom Danley, he is a firm believer in true dynamically capable speakers. He has a comment somewhere talking about something as simple as dropping a spoon on the floor could have dynamic peaks of over 50dB. Pretty intense so the more efficient the speaker, the better off you will be in the long run With that said, I would never consider a 95dB speaker "inefficient" by any means. You just have to feed it the power it needs
This is why I choose to run the 212HT w/ 2000 w/ch. You think you are playing loud with an AVR and actually you are playing loud and that is the issue. Loud is not what you want dynamic and bigger is what you want. My goal is not louder that is why I choose a bit more absorption and more power because louder is exactly what I don't want.

When you can go into a theater and reference is not "loud" you are in a good place. Not saying I am happy yet but these are my goals.
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post #26400 of 35344 Old 12-19-2014, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Considering the 212s I have sounds great powering off of my receiver of only 150 watts or so of amp power (I have never found the limit yet... I usually play at -12 which is really, really loud, i believe if not reference, it's above already... once i accidentally played at -5 and it was soooo loud and clean, so between -5 and -12, there's a 7dB difference and I can still go even more with the receiver... and the -5 was just as dynamic to me as the -12)... so, with that said, would it be fair to say I can power the 215s with my receiver as well? I mean, if i ran it at -5 (for the 215s) on my receiver, i'll get the same volume as -12 (on the 212s) (although someone said the 101 dB that jeff posted was lower than actual which might be 104 or something... if that's the case, then the 95dB would be 9dB off).

Anyways... I am still waiting for someone to try using the 215s on just a receiver...
When the transients get clipped, it generally sounds fine...not what you think of from an overloaded amp or speaker.

Whether we're talking about 212s or 215s, it will probably sound fine.

Just not quite as good as it could sound if it could reproduce those transients without clipping.

Incidentally, aside from big amps and high efficiency speakers, reducing ambient noise is another effective way to increase dynamic range. Adding sound treatment and using speakers with horns help with this.

Better yet, all of the above.
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